No Noobs! (Era Crossing specs, Amuro vs Kira vs Heero)
oIs your actual knowledge about Gundam in general comparable with my current Post Count in this forum? Then you will probably be making some mistakes which make you appear retarded/stupid, especially when you favor a series over another. Everyone has seen (or used) some kind of dumb excuse like "lawl Heero is teh best pilot and ZERO system simply pWns" before, this thread is solely around to clear some things up, shall there be any disagreement QUOTE THE PART YOU DEEM WRONG and more importantly GIVE AN ACCURATE, RELIABLE REASON WHY IT IS WRONG:
No no #1:
"Super Coordinators have NT powers additional to their own abilities"
Nope, NTs don't exist in SEED. Characters with enhanced spatial awareness like Mwu and Creuset are sometimes designated as weak NTs in games if there are real NTs around so the programmers can slack off more. Coordinators do not share identical abilities with Newtypes.
No no #2:
"Wing Zero is the strongest Gundam ever"
Complete bull. Wingzero's technical specs make it stronger than most things of the more well known early period of the UC era, being up to Char's Counterattack where Nu nearly ties it. It is completely exceeded by F91 and everything above. Even in its own universe, Wing Gundam Zero will be succeeded by Wing Gundam Seraphim.
No no #3:
"Gundam X Newtypes are same as Universal Century ones."
Nope, the After War Era has a different definition of Newtype than the Universal Century, they also show exclusive abilities that the respective other does not possess.
No no #4:
"Amuro/Char is the most powerful Newtype."
Nope, though SD Gundam G Generation and some other games tells us otherwise, according to the series, either Kamille or Judau are the strongest NTs of the Universal Century. Camille would have the potential to exceed both Amuro and Char, which was stated by the two. However, he never got to reach that state before becoming looney from the final battle with Scirocco. Judau was supposed to exceed all of them, though the idea seems to have gone lost over time. The globally strongest NT could be considered D.O.M.E. or Amuro's child in the novel, though D.O.M.E. belongs to the Gundam X timeline and is therefore different.
No no #5:
"Nu Gundam/Hi Nu Gundam is the best Gundam ever"
The Universal Century had about 60-80 years to make something better, Nu becomes outdated in its own timeline.
No no #6:
"Gundanium makes the Gundam invincible"
No, the thing that makes Gundam W stuff invincible is plot armor beyond all logic. Gundanium alone is very well vulnerable to beam sabres and beam shots. Even the supposedly better armored cockpit area would not tolerate a direct beam sabre stab, Gundanium or not, which is stated in G-Unit.
Warning: Very long wall of text ahead!
No no #7:
"Heero in Wing Gundam Zero/Kira in Strike Freedom/Any non-UC protagonist in their respective Gundam are superior to Amuro in Nu Gundam"
No. I know if you are a fan of something specific other than Amuro (highly likely of anyone born after the 1980s) you might favor them and deem them stronger with some sort of "good" explanation, you are free to put your comment on it... AFTER reading. I will try my best to answer to any possible argument that might come up in the text, and I will not neglect the awesomeness of so and so and whatsoever, but I will analyse them at a logic and neutral basis. So please trust me and READ THE GODDAM WALL OF TEXT BEFORE CRITICISM/DUM COMMENTS. If you post something that has been asnwered by the wall of text, I will simply quote the part and then declare you EPIC PHAIL (not really, but it will make you look stupid). Also note that I will completely ignore Shinn, Athrun, Domon and Master Asia, as the former is inferior to Kira if it weren't for plotline (He just showed guts and intelligence in that one battle, had a good reason and Kira was being a complete pacifist), Athrun lost too many times to Kira already (and got pWned ever since Amuro threatened to sue him for copyright issues regarding the illegal plagiarism of his Haros, which he holds the license for) and the latter two lack and defy logic and thus, an accurately evaluated skill level is unprobable (Headbands stretch out to infinite length, body parts may rotate at will while the rest remains in place, fire appears out of thin air, horses learn Kung Fu... kinda).
First of all, I wish to present you a type of "table of contents" for my arguments, which serves as general guideline. A Pilot with his Gundam is likely to win because of the following reasons:
-A short statement
-Better Pilot
-Better MS
--Armor
--General Technology
--Pilot Enhacing Technology
--Weaponry
-Trump Cards (ZERO system, SEED mode, EXAM etc.)
-Fighting Style ("could do" is not equal "will do")
The following winning reasons have been left out:
-Plotlines
-FUBAR Plot Armor that is not explained (there are explained invincible situations, such as Zeta Gundam's during overcharge)
A Short Statement:
It is impossible to dodge a bullet, let alone a beam (near light speed) shot once it is fired. Char Aznable has commented on how to "dodge" them: "Don't be in a place where the barrel is pointing straight at you in the moment it is being fired". In order to dodge a shot that otherwise would be perfectly aimed at you, you must either guess and flit around hoping everything misses (like most people) or pre-emptively know where the opponent will or possibly will aim (hinted by ZERO system, calculated as Coordinator or foresaw as Newtype).
The Better Pilot:
Heero:
Even in his own universe, it is stated that Trowa Barton is better. But thats arguable and Trowa is not the main character, so lets not regard that. Mentored by Jean Ren-err I mean Odin Lowe, then drilled by Dr. J, Heero (named after some unfortunate dork who got killed before the actual series) has become what the series will state as "the perfect soldier", obsessed with his mission and skilled enough to carry it out flawlessly under any given condition. If you are familiar to Gundam W, you will also know that Heero is capable of emotions, it was even a major guideline for his developement (He was explicitely told to live by his emotions) and he experiences mainly with Relena throughout the series... but he remains an unsocial killing machine that you wouldn't mess with. But lets face it, Heero gets less Character developement in the whole series than Bernard Wiseman in 30 minutes, his later incarnation near the end of Endless Waltz wasn't any better than how he was to the very beginning, aside of giving presents and probably some enemy in an english/chinese dub saying "you have gotten better". Also, his supposedly capability of enduring injuries didn't work out that well when he was using Heavyarms to duel Zechs. Heero has the best start-off over most Gundam protagonists, he was rigorously trained to fight when he enters the Gundam, but didn't develope all that much while he was using it. The reason to this assumption is that Heero lacks innovative attacks, the best you see of him are tackles, combining Vulcans with melee moves and when he did that buster rifle split up thing and shot in 2 directions while spinning. In addition to his lack of character depth, Heero only had 2 series to feature in... well okay and some mangas. If you were epically fascinated by Gundam W and disagree with me that the characters lack depth, well you know what Duo said in the movie facing that serpent? "I'd recognize this fighting style anyday. Thats trowa in that machine!". As you might remember the oh so distinguished "fighting style" consisted of standing in place and shooting at the enemy. I do not call that a distinguished fighting style. I also do not consider constant babbling about soldiers and war as deep conversation, such as Heero's comment that "Those who attack and try to kill him are his enemies". Wow Heero, did you figure that out all by yourself? Also notable is the "self destruct" attitude. In fact, Heero doesn't really self destruct that much, he either fails or somebody else does it in his place or alternatively, finds an obviously better solution, usually after some more talking. Those constantly repeating nonsense dialogues will finally affect his fighting style, which will be explained later.
Kira:
Kira is the finished result of a "Super Coordinator", his talent is shown in the 1st SEED episode instantly reprogramming Strike to adapt any situation. Thats like making Windows 95 into Linux in 10 seconds (if you hate Linux then make that Windows vista or Mac OS or something). He does it again later against LaGoWe, then continues through the series in a godlike manner almost never getting hit by anything. As Super Coordinator, Kira is the closest of what is intended to be an artificially generated enhanced being intended to lead mankind to the next step of evolution (Namely, the Newtype... just kidding. I said before they don't exist in SEED lol, but if you look at it purely this way, NTs are beings that already are what Hibiki and Glenn are longing to create). His brain is like a supercomputer and can calculate and process information at extreme speeds, maximizing the output (combat) at a given information input (data, anything he is aware of). Kira did not have the training Heero recieved, he grew up unknowing of his immense potential and simply adapted himself as Gundam Pilot after he decided to defend Heliopolis. This proves an immense learning speed or natural talent, as he can get to the level of the best aces in that little time. Also, he is capable of SEED mode, which will be explained later.
Amuro:
The very first Gundam pilot starts out as kid who grew up almost without his parents, huddled in a room in underwear with mechanic designs (he built Haro) vegetating and letting time pass at Side 7. This completely changed the moment he decided to confront the Zeon attack and single handedly took out his opponents with no more experience and preparation than *reading the instruction manual*. After that he is more or less thrown into the deep side of the swimming pool and expected to win the olympics in swimming, being sent against the until dato most experienced and legendary pilot of Zeon, Char Aznable as well as special task forces and complete armies of Zeonic troops. Wrecking the North American blockade, single handedly turning the war on various fronts and constantly staying on par with increasingly strong Zeonic Mobile Suits and Armors. Not bad for a kid who read the instruction manual huh? Like Kira (or actually I should have said "like Amuro at Kira's place since Amuro was there first), an immense learning speed and natural talent. Amuro is also sometimes noted to be a crybaby in the 0079s, but he got constantly Brightslapped into shape by Captain Bright Noah and especially after busting out and meeting Ramba Ral, has become a more determined fighter. In addition to the obvious learning and development speed, Amuro keeps reappearing as side character or cameo in more series, mangas, novels and sidestories than any of the other 2. He also features as main character more often. In addition to that, He is a Newtype with enhanced senses. Being the next step of human evolution, Amuro has a special instinct more or less accurately telling him what will happen. Also given enhanced reflexes, he is able to pre-emptively and accurately react to any danger. Most notably as he described "the light of hatred which will bring death" *minutes* before the Zeon fired the solar ray prior to the battle at A Baoa Qu. Another feature of Newtypes is that they can read minds and even communicate with other Newtypes over a distance. A Newtype is capable of always knowing the thoughts or at least personality, emotional state and intention of people in their vincinity and even notice the consciousness of dead spirits of other NTs who were emotionally bond to him, for example Lalah, who often appears as guiding spirit.
Result:
1. Amuro, simply having more time to develope and developing faster than the competition.
2. Kira, Also developes quite fast, but wasn't given the time.
3. Heero, developed mentally. Had his training before all the happenings. Also learns of course, but you don't see much of it. He has no special talent to be born with.
The Better MS:
Wing Gundam Zero (aka Gundam wingzero Custom):
Being the ultimate MS of the AC, Gundams are high-end experimental technology and so is Wing gundam Zero, being top notch and easily outclassing fodder units.
-Armor: In the AC timeline, Gundams are ultimate machines made with the ultimate material Gundanium. So why do all the MD Leos miss them? Aren't there any targetting systems? Well, there are, but Gundanium is undetectable by radar, which screws up any sort of aiming system so that you can only lock on them if you are either a.) extremely close or b.) rely on visual data, namely your eyes. Also, Gundanium is supposedly extremely resistant against any type of attack. But like any metal, it will eventually get dented when fired upon enough and break with a suffisciently strong attack. While the W series featured a line of FUBAR unlogic scenes where the Gundams tank about anything thrown at them, while having other scenes where these Gundams do break. The result of all these scenes, I estimate the strength as following: Leos and other fodder units or stuff with "Fighting 100-110 / Weapons 100-110" like Tallgeese I have sabres that suck and won't leave a mark. Stronger beam sabres can successfully slash off limbs, but cannot slash through the torso (cockpit). Any beam sabre directly stabbing the cockpit WILL pierce and evaporate the pilot. The same counts for beam shots, though it needs a strong beam to pierce the torso. There is an Easter Egg displaying the name "Gundarium Theta" for the material, Gundarium being the material RX-78-2 was made of (the original was named Gundarium Alpha), hinting its armor strength. The UC only depicted the development of Gundarium Gamma, which was simply more lightweight. However, this is purely trivial as the timelines don't really have anything to do with eachother.
-General Technology:
There aren't many technical specs on propulsion and energy for Gundam W units, they simply run on the usual Ultracompact Fusion Reactors that every MS uses when there's nothing better/new around. Wing Gundam Zero seems to use its wings to stabilize in Zero Gravity following Newton, resulting in those brag-poses before firing the Twin Buster rifle.
-Pilot Enhancing technology:
Wing Gundam Zero is equipped with the Z.E.R.O. system, every gundam noob who has watched W tends to use this as excuse for calling Heero unbeatable etc. while that may be arguably true in his own universe, the other universes have equivalents... or successors to it. Nonetheless, the ZERO system shall be analysed of its capacities. It will constantly scan the psychical state of the pilot, the MS, and the surroundings and interface the Gundam's computer to the pilot's brain, allowing the pilot to experience the Gundam as his own body and react faster accordingly, it will also precalculate actions and possibilities that can lead to total victory or defeat and directly process them to the pilot. But since computers do not filter information like the human brain, the constant injection of vast data might cause the pilot to temporarily go insane. Few are mentally capable of resisting, but even those will not be able to process thousands and millions of possibilities (ever tried solving thousands of complicated calculations at once?). The direct interface will result into a reduced form of information display: urges and hallucinations of actions the pilot may take which might be a good idea... or not, depending on the pilot's emotional state.
-Weaponry:
First of all the typical Twin Buster Rifle. I don't know how much energy or rounds it can fire but thats not all too crucial. the TBR is capable of destroying a colony (though the one it destroyed was smaller than the ones you use to see in the UC and CE) and will mean instant destruction if it hits, an electromagnetic pulse around the shot will also doom anything in the vincinity, making the weapon capable of destroying whole divisions of MS. However, in order for the particles fired to gain the velocity to be destructive enough, the shot must be charged accordingly long, a major flaw making the weapon near useless against anything beyond grunt MS who act extremely stupid. It is also questionable how the TBR locks on (why did Heero need all that time to lock on that frickin big dropping space colony?), I guess its mostly for the dramatic effect. At any rate, against aces such as Amuro or Kira, Heero might as well throw it off as dead weight, there is really no point in charging that thing up and its also large enough that even pacifist Kira will likely snipe it off him. What is left are 2 Beam Sabres and a set of chest-mounted turrets, which seem to have quite the impact on a Leo or something but otherwise, like any Gundam turret sideweapon, is virtually inefficient for anything else than supportive fire additional to some other type of attack.
Strike Freedom Gundam:
One of the strongest Gundams ever to be created in the CE, Strike Freedom's sheer power output (more than 2 times as much as Wing Gundam Zero and about 3 times as much as Nu) makes it a formidable opponent.
-Armor:
It is quite unknown wether or not the actual armor of Strike Freedom is special, but it seems that Gundam SEED/Destiny units are easily vulnerable even to the most simple physical attacks when Phase Shift is off. Sporting Variable Phase Shift Armor, Strike Freedom is virtually truely invulnerable to any type of physical attack as long as the energy demand can be supplied suffisciently *in time* (its energy is virtually unlimited, however, the output has a speed and if that is exceeded by the usage the Phase Shift can temporarily break... purely trivial and not likely ever to happen). Beam Attacks however, will cause an energy shock in the place its hits the Phase Shift causing it to locally power down meaning that PS Armor practically does not block beam attacks (theoretically a marginal amount of damage is prevented). For protection against beams, the Strike Freedom sports anti-beam shields at its forearms, which are even capable of blocking an anti ship sword.
-General Technology:
Having a Voiture Lumiere based propulsion and an ultracompact hyper deuterion nuclear reactor (it does fissions, not fusions) puts it way before anything else known in any Gundam universe. Strike Freedom has virtually infinite power supply and its propulsion technology is comparable with the late UC Minovsky Drive (though not as functional), while Wing Gundam Zero still runs on its rocket Thrusters... Having an N-Jammer Canceller is also something but not notably important outside of the CE.
-Pilot Enhacing Technology:
No notable ones, though you can consider the DRAGOON system as something interfaced by the pilot. While the CE has no real Newtypes there is no notable number of people with enhanced brainwaves, the DRAGOON system is made to be used by Coordinators and Naturals alike.
-Weaponry:
CIWS, multi-phase beam cannons, rail cannons, a high-energy beam rifle and Super DRAGOONs, enough firepower to outgun about anything and also features the typical 2 beam sabres. Anything but the CIWS are sure to pack some punch.
Nu Gundam:
This Gundam of the 0093s is outdated in its own timeline, as the UC goes on. Its power however, is based on the pilot in concert with the machine, which is individually designed for the pilot.
-Armor:
Gundarium. Resistant to Solid projectiles, but nothing extraordinary for a Gundam. Nu Gundam's Fin Funnel Field however, can deflect both solid and beam projectiles. While this field can be collapsed by a suffiscient strong penetrating attack, it will delay them and can be moderated to let the Gundam's own attacks pass through freely.
-General Technology:
While in Gundam W gundanium is responsible for inaccurate fire of the grunt units and in SEED its the N-Jammer making skilled pilots needed, the Universal Century explains it with the technology about everything in it is based on: Minovsky particles. Instead of normal ultracompact fusion reactors, Nu Gundam runs on a Minovsky type reactor and some of its weapons run on that too. The result is that the area around it is always in an invisible cloud of minovsky particles, which will screw up all types of sensors and radar communications and thus, explaining why it needs skilled pilots to aim with visual perception instead of guided targeting computers. Dense ammassments of those particles are that what creates I-Fields and Beam Sabres of the UC, explaining why they can even penetrate anti-beam technology. It also has a total 32 verniers and thrusters to accelerate with and maintain its movements into detail in addition to the AMBAC system to counteract its outdated propulsion compared with the other 2 Gundams. Due to inexistance of Minovsky particles in the other universes, it can also be assumed that they do not have sensors to counteract the effect, meaning that everything must rely on visual data, as all other types of sensors become inaccurate.
-Pilot Enhacing Technology:
Nu Gundam possesses pilot enhancing technology, which usually gets forgotten by everybody and is unknown to the unknowing, as the technology is based on NT powers and usually gets lost in explanations. First of all, the Psycommu System, while DRAGOONs operate with coordinates and move cruddily like Incoms, Funnels underly direct mind control of the NT pilote, as seen, their movements are more complex and fluent than that of Incoms and DRAGOONs. Second of all, the Psychoframe. The Psychoframe does the exact opposite of what a ZERO system would do: instead of relying on the machine to feed information to the pilot, it enhances the brainwaves of the pilot in order to mentally control the machine and sense the surroundings. This is clearly depicted by the 360 degree panoramic screen of the cockpit, where the pilot merely has to touch an orb to control the MS in contrary to the bulky classic cockpits in W and SEED, where the pilot has to tug levers, pull joysticks, push buttons and type stuff into keyboards. Also, the NT's perception becomes so strong that it goes beyond visual range and they can read the minds of the pilots of other mobile suits. Another advantage is that the NTs supernatural peception cannot be interfered by any means, meaning that the lack of detection of Gundanium and N-Jammer fields are completely nullified to an NT pilot in a Psychoframe unit. The actual power unfolds in combination with a strong NT like Amuro Ray, who's NT powers are already beyond the ordinary and when enhanced, allow almost supernatural perception and awareness (while the pilot of a ZERO system MS is still limited by his brain's limits independent of the amount of data the system gives him) as well as the ability to move things with mental force. Amuro's total awareness becomes clear when he can outmaneuver and destroy enemy MS using only 1 Fin Funnel. The Psychoframe also has a sideeffect: It will not only take up the mental power of the pilot, but also that of all other pilots in the area. The more dedicated and numerous the people around the unit (independant if hostile or friendly), the stronger it gets.
-Weaponry:
Amuro's unit carries a Beam Rifle capable of rapid fire, 2 large beam sabres (they are different from the standard and do more damage) as well as a Hyper Bazooka and a shield, which contains a beam launcher and 4 grenades. The unit itself also features a set of Dummy Balloons which fool visual sensors of opponent units in the array of Minovsky particles and also has a set of Fin Funnels. While most of the physical weapons won't help him at all against adversaries packed up in Gundanium or VPS Armor, the Fin Funnels run on Minovsky technology - the same as beam sabres - and therefore pack enough punch to penetrate any armor.
Result:
1. Strike Freedom, for sheer power.
2. Nu Gundam, even though outdated, this "oldtimer" still has what it takes and actually provides enough advantages to compete.
3. Wing Gundam Zero, a TBR won't do any good against aces, whats left are laughable turrets and beam sabres. The ZERO system does slightly make the pilot more competitive against its supernatural opponents, but not enough.
Trump Cards
The Z.E.R.O. System, SEED Mode and NT Psycho Overcharge:
In comparison, the ZERO system turns out poorly as it is only marginally better than what Coordinators already process in their minds (the synch of the pilot with the MS is not obtained by a coordinator). Both can precalculate possibilities and attacks, but the ZERO system does not offer a SEED mode in which the pilot's spatial awareness as well as physical abilities are highly increased and while Kira always directly knows what he's doing, Heero is left to figure out himself what those hallucinations and urges mean and which are the right ones to follow ("ZERO is speaking with him", but he has to answer himself). Both however, are inferior to the advantages given by the Psychoframe on a strong NT (and Amuro is a strong NT, not the strongest but distinguished for sure), while their information uptake is limited by respective timeline differences, Amuro can always accurately tell where they are as his type of sensory (pure psychic sensory) is not blocked in any way while his spatial awareness is also increased during a state of deep determination (the same conditions that call upon SEED mode). This will usually lead to a green "battle-aura" shrouding around him on the battlefield, Amuro can also control the Minovsky particles around him to push away objects (this effect is stronger in biosensors, with which Kamille was able to summon such a dense amount of minovsky particles to form an I-field around his unit that it became invulnerable even to physical attacks), for example an Asteroid Base (though that was an exceptional event). Given that and the instinct to always accurately tell what *will* happen next (not what thousands of possibilities *might* happen next like the ZERO system), Neither of the other pilots can match up to Amuro when all 3 are at their peak performance.
Result:
1. Psychoframe Overcharge, Amuro doesn't have to calculate or guess, he simply knows.
2. SEED Mode, Kira can also highly increase his reaction and spatial awareness additionally to his Super Coordinator skills.
3. ZERO system, its not that great. It merely gives Heero what a good coordinator is already capable of.
Fighting Style ("could do" is not equal "will do")
Heero:
All Gundam W pilots show a huge flaw in melee combat by pressing their beam sabres against that of the opponent, and start to talk. They show no innovation whatsoever during melee combat and merely aim better and attack faster/stronger than oneanother. Tackles and simultanious use of sabres and vulcans were the best idea he ever came up with in an intense ace battle.
Kira:
Kira shares the same downside of everything in Gundam SEED, Destiny, GEAR Fighter Dendoh and Fafner: plain movements and unecessary poses. For example, everytime Infinite Justice is about to commence melee combat, it will draw its sabres in a flashy braggish manner, combine them in a flashy braggish manner, activate its thrusters and do an unnecessary 360 degree roll while accelerating. Most attacks run in an obvious manner as they will always prepare in a braggish pose (spread wings in HiMat, raise anti ship sword for 2 seconds, etc.)
Amuro:
Even in 0079, battles were fluent. In 0093, they were even more fluent. Char and Amuro also constantly debate in battle but they don't need those 20 second beam sabre presses. Already in 0079 Amuro had better moves than numerous later protagonists, including the 2 mentioned here. These involve dual wielding sabres, throwing off equipments, hand to hand combat and tearing off cables from his opponents MS.
Result:
1. Amuro, if we trust the animation, he reacts the fastest and fights most fluent, additionally to tactical depth.
2. Kira, he shows tactical depth in battles, but "lags" a lot in poses.
3. Heero, too much beam sabre pressing, and most fights have less to no tactical depth (no tactical depth being fights where they purely just swing beam sabres around).
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