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Thread: A discussion of manga vs American comics

  1. #1
    Senior Member ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo's Avatar
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    Default A discussion of manga vs American comics

    I don't know where to put this so if a mod wants to, put it in the anime section.

    I want to talk about manga vs American comics. Not about what's better or worse to some degree, but how things are handled in their respective industries.

    Here is one of the points of the discussion. Take for example, the writing.

    American comics can go on for years. They are usually the copyright of the publisher. If Bob Kane for instance left DC for Marvel, than DC would still be publishing Batman. Or the reverse, if Stan Lee left Marvel, Marvel would still be doing Spider-Man and his other classic creations.

    I say this could be a good or bad thing.

    With manga, it's usually done strictly by the original manga-ka. Takeuchi-sensei will ALWAYS have complete control over Sailor Moon as much as Toriyama-sensei has control over Dragon Ball. With American comics, many writers can change do it for years and it leads to ridiculous situations like retcons and bringing dead characters back to life, etc. It does get annoying.

    But I guess it is good because it extends the comic life more. It just seems mainstream American comics never end. The longest lasting manga I know of is Golgo 13 and the original creator is still doing it since 1968.

    With manga, you don't really get any of the things I personally find negative since it's mostly the creator that does it. Usually this only applies in anime like Naruto, Bleach, and Inuyasha fillers. Usually with the exemption of some cases, manga-ka's have little to no involvement with the anime counterpart. Like Initial D anime had some changes to in terms of chronological order of certain things like when Takumi races Kenta, the introduction of the Emperors, etc.

    Feel free to add on to what I am saying or add your own talking points.

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  2. #2
    Senior Member Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem's Avatar
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    Since this is a topic worth talking about I'll try to add something. Different writers and artists is a double edged sword, sometimes you just get wonderful art and fantastic plots. The problem being it's just so increadibly uneven, since it's not uncommon to get a terrible or mediocre writer/artist on a series for YEARS. I think the perfect length of a series is like 70-80 issues, you get a couple years worth of good stuff and then it's over. The walking dead is a really good example of this style, even if it's not that great of a series.

    Another huge problem with with U.s comics is that the focus is just so heavily on super heroes and is just so up it's own corn hole that if you haven't been reading since 1987 things just don't make any sense. So obviously getting into a super hero series that's been going since 1965 and has the same continuity, ret-cons and all is daunting. There are of course non super hero comics but it's like 90% super hero books. Super hero books can be great don't get me wrong, but It's not for everyone. And if you don't like super hero books what do you have? Sure you have Fables and sin city but come on you need more. I'm not a big super hero fan, so that doesn't leave me with much to chose from even though I do like american comics.

    Manga HAS the selection, if you don't like Fist of the north star ( you monster) it's not like your only other choice is Saint Seiya or dragon ball z. If you don't like big men screaming you can read monster, or whatever. I can't stand shonen romance series like love hina, so I can choose to read berserk instead. And people can still enjoy shonen romance. All people can get their own piece of the pie, especially since females make up a large portion of manga readers. If U.s comics could maybe get the selection of manga, get some romance in there start putting out detetctive books again, and even horror. You had them before, why not try again?
    Last edited by Rem; 08-17-2007 at 04:30 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaParaJMo View Post
    American comics can go on for years. They are usually the copyright of the publisher.
    I'd like to point out that Image comics doesn't work this way. If, say, Tod Mcfarlane leaves Image, he takes Spawn with him.

    If Bob Kane for instance left DC for Marvel, than DC would still be publishing Batman. Or the reverse, if Stan Lee left Marvel, Marvel would still be doing Spider-Man and his other classic creations.
    Stan Lee isn't the Marvel EIC anymore...and Bob Kane is Dead.

    With manga, it's usually done strictly by the original manga-ka. Takeuchi-sensei will ALWAYS have complete control over Sailor Moon as much as Toriyama-sensei has control over Dragon Ball. With American comics, many writers can change do it for years and it leads to ridiculous situations like retcons and bringing dead characters back to life, etc. It does get annoying.
    Sometimes, that really doesn't matter. The Editor in Chief has the final say for big decisions like that. So Retcons and Character Ressurections are the fault of only a few people.

    But I guess it is good because it extends the comic life more. It just seems mainstream American comics never end. The longest lasting manga I know of is Golgo 13 and the original creator is still doing it since 1968.
    I like the fact that they don't end. They evolve as society does. Besides, It always ensures that I have something to read, and I don't need to get familier with a new cast of characters, then by the time I'm familier with them and i've taken a liking to said characters...! Series is over!. However there are plenty of series that DO end.

  4. #4
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    The evolution of american comics is a plus in my opinion though occasionaly they do something stupid like ressurect a character over and over or kill them of to prepare for an upcoming movie(Capt America), but american comics need to diversifiy into other genres besides super heros.

    Manga on the other hand I believe has settled into a nich and has become complacent in there supuriority in the comics bussiness and this has affected there work, hence the unexpected popularity of Korean manga now which has damaged the Japanese bussiness bottom line somewhat.
    Last edited by Knightmare; 08-15-2007 at 04:31 PM.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem's Avatar
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    occasionaly they do something stupid like ressurect a character over and over
    Occasionaly? They do that CONSTANTLY, how many times has grey died now, 14?

    hence the unexpected popularity of Korean manga now which has damaged the Japanese bussiness bottom line somewhat.
    Manwha has always really annoyed me because of the complete derth of creativity both the art and stories. When priest is is the most noteable series in a field that is not a good sign.

  6. #6
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    I'd like to point out that Image comics doesn't work this way. If, say, Tod Mcfarlane leaves Image, he takes Spawn with him.
    I have very little familiarity with Image except Spawn and Savage Dragon and some others. But if McFarlane leaves Image, it's when he shuts it down. Plus, doesn't he own image?

    Sometimes, that really doesn't matter. The Editor in Chief has the final say for big decisions like that. So Retcons and Character Ressurections are the fault of only a few people.
    Thankfully this rarely ever happens with Japanese manga in terms of retcons. But resurrections do happen in manga like with Abdul in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. And they brought him back good.

    Bringing back Jean the first time was clever, but then it just got done to death.
    I remember some time ago I think it was Angela the creator wanted the rights to her but Image wanted to keep it.

    Then again, you don't see Sin City without Frank Miller and with some of his other projects or V for Vendetta without Alan Moore. I'll admit I'm looking too much on the mainstream side of American comics.

    Stan Lee isn't the Marvel EIC anymore...and Bob Kane is Dead.
    I never said that Kane was alive. I was just saying that out of hypothesizing in the event if he were to leave DC sometime prior to his death nearly 20 years ago.

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  7. #7
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    I’m glad so far that nobody in the discussion so far has pulled the “Everything I love is godlike and everything else is the sux0r” card out.

    I love both Western comics and Manga equally. I always tried to embrace all comic and media from both sides of the ocean. Unfortunately, the same rule applies for both Western and Eastern comics. That rule is:

    For every excellent publication, there are ten or so that are absolute rubbish.

    I know not everything can be Watchmen or Battle Angel, but that doesn’t mean I have to read them. It is easy to say that every Western comic is nothing but superheroes dressed in crotch snuggling Lycra, but you would then be ignoring such excellent stories as The Sandman or Maus.

    It could be just as easy to say all Manga is nothing but derivative, melodramatic romances, loaded with laughable angst, but you would be ignoring the likes of Confidential Confessions, Basara and Please Save My Earth.

    I have always had the policy of embracing both, because either way I win.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali has a reputation beyond repute Masali's Avatar
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    There are many American comics that appeal to me, 100% of which were suggested to me by redfield. They are:

    Ultimate Spiderman
    Ultimate Xmen
    Deadpool (durrr)
    Runaways (My personal favorite)
    Planet Hulk
    World War Hulk (very close to replacing runaways)

    Those are the only ones I've had exposure to. However, I've had tons of exposure to many MANY different manga. There are some american I enjoy more than the Manga, and visa versa.

    For instance: I would drop everything if a new volume of BECK: Mongolian Chop Squad just hit, I'd drop everything to read it. A new volume of runaways? Eh, It can wait.

    However, a new volume of Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi takes a major backseat to all of them, except ultimate X-men. I don't care for that one, I'd rather read about Haruhi than them =/

    Though, Beck, Monster, and Great Teacher Onizuka are my favorite manga. And World War Hulk and Runaways are my favorite AMERICAN COMICBLAHBLAHBLAHSHADDUP....I'd rather read the manga. The story is just more appealing to me on both of them. I've strayed away from anything action related, because to me it all boils down to the same thing: Heroes defeat villains, new villains emerge, foreshadowing and then the volume ends. Manga about real life is so much more interesting, since life is never the same. And with a good enough writer, stories can be even more captivating than action. Which is why I stopped watching/reading Bleach and Naruto.
    Last edited by Masali; 08-15-2007 at 08:03 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masali View Post
    hough, Beck, Monster, and Great Teacher Onizuka are my favorite manga. And World War Hulk and Runaways are my favorite Manga....I'd rather read the manga.
    Think you need to reword that buddy >_>.

  10. #10
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    >=O
    fixed.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masali View Post
    >=O
    fixed.
    You also said "Both of them", but you listed three....

    Muhahahahah , Im in ur thread. Nit Picking.

  12. #12
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    Though I like both American comics and manga, I can really only say that I'm a fan of manga.

    When I was a child I read a lot of comics, mostly Ironman, Spiderman, and X-men, but also Green Lantern, and a bit of Captain America.

    But, the story lines of manga are more appealing to me, and I don't read American comics anymore, other than those I occasionally borrow from my friend and his father(who have an extraordinarily large collection).

    Also, I believe that, in general, American comic art is much better than that of manga art...mind you, this is in general. When I do read comics it is more than likely that I am only reading it as I marvel over the artwork. Not to say that there aren't manga artists who can hold their own against the comic artists (Hideto Ogure, Masamune Shirow, Tsutomu Nihei, Range Murata, and the like), and I believe manga does tend to have some more interesting art styles (Hajime Ueda, Yuichi Kumakura, Tsutomu Nihei).

    "The color fades along the intervals I follow."

  13. #13
    Senior Member Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem's Avatar
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    It could be just as easy to say all Manga is nothing but derivative, melodramatic romances, loaded with laughable angst, but you would be ignoring the likes of Confidential Confessions, Basara and Please Save My Earth
    Those people are wrong though, manga has many viable genres while american comics do not.

  14. #14
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    Each has their respective availability.. who knows I tend to figure most american stuff are good for studies and school related things

    Japanese stuff however is a bit more.. entertaining since this people tend to exaggerate alot more than your average stories.

    I've been reading mangas since the mid 90's and I'm still really not use to reading them from the other side

    not that it matters

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rem View Post
    Those people are wrong though, manga has many viable genres while american comics do not.
    False.

    There are plenty of American Comics that stray away from the super hero genre.
    The thing is, Many of those comics, JUST like Manga end after 15-25 issues.
    And JUST like Manga, 80% of those titles are brushed under the carpet and forgotten.
    Theres been plenty of non-super hero comics in america. Most of them just haven't been popular.
    Like SGI said,

    For every excellent publication, there are ten or so that are absolute rubbish.

    As I said above,Plenty of Manga get brushed under the carpet and forgotten.
    The thing is, we don't SEE most of them, because they're SO crappy that they never make a splash outside of Japan(Or translators just don't care enough about them to translate them)

    And I must say one thing. Japan has a lot of "Super Hero" things. They just aren't CALLED super heroes.

    Goku and the other Z Fighters from DBZ? The Sailor Scouts? The Guyver? Kamen Rider? Super Sentai? Yusuke Urameshi and his Team? The Cyborgs from Cyborg 009, The Megaman/Rockman anime series? Hell.... Astro Boy? Theres even more examples, but I think you see my point.

    They all have the same exact properties of American Heroes with 2 exceptions.
    -They aren't called Super Heroes (Unless you count Gohan's Sayiman thing)
    -They typically don't wear costumes (Even then,Some of them do)

    They all fight evil to protect innocents and the planet from destruction and blah blah blah, just because it's the right thing to do. It's the same formula as super hero comic books.
    Even to a lesser extent, the likes of Bleach or Naruto characters possess these qualities as well.
    A lot of Shounen anime/manga are like this.
    Good vs Evil in an epic battle has been a common theme in story telling since story telling began.

    Oh, and one more thing.
    Just because a comic takes place in the Marvel or DC universe....Don't assume it's automatically a super hero comic.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rem View Post
    Those people are wrong though, manga has many viable genres while american comics do not.
    If I swing the pendulem of oversimplification the otherway, manga has exactly two: Girl's Manga and Boy's Manga.

    Now please stay out of this conversation. You don't know American comics from a hole in the wall.
    Last edited by Manhattan_Project_2000; 08-16-2007 at 12:20 AM.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem's Avatar
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    There are plenty of American Comics that stray away from the super hero genre.
    The thing is, Many of those comics, JUST like Manga end after 15-25 issues.
    And JUST like Manga, 80% of those titles are brushed under the carpet and forgotten.
    Theres been plenty of non-super hero comics in america. Most of them just haven't been popular.
    Like SGI said,
    Enlighten me, what are the horror, detective, aimed at women comics that got brushed to the side? (this is more for my own benifit)

    :edit: when it comes to horror I could think of the walking dead, 30 days of night and maybe the darkness, anything else out there?:
    If I swing the pendulem of oversimplification the otherway, manga has exactly two: Girl's Manga and Boy's Manga.
    And again you would be wrong.
    Now please stay out of this conversation. You don't know American comics from a hole in the wall.
    I <3 you too
    And I must say one thing. Japan has a lot of "Super Hero" things. They just aren't CALLED super heroes.
    I never said there wasn't, my point was that manga has a lot more genres to choose from.

    On a final note, just because there is a spattering of series in a genre doesn't make it a viable and profitable genre. Which was my whole point in the first place.
    Last edited by Rem; 08-16-2007 at 09:24 AM.

  18. #18
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    @Rem: Ok. Maybe I am. Perhaps it was even an intentional oversimplification to mock your position.

    But you know what?

    V for Vendetta, Groo the Wanderer, Archie comics (all of them), 300, Sandman, Bone, Johnny the Homicidal Maniac, Conan, Sin City, Maus, Art School Confidential, HOWARD THE DUCK*, Road to Perdition.

    This is the tip of the iceberg. Just because YOU don't know of them, doesn't mean they don't exist. Go to the graphic novels section in any decent bookstore. Look. 70&#37; will be re-prints and collections of DC and Marvel properties, and the rest will be a motley collection of alternative comics. Few of which involve super heroes.

    *- I felt very strongly this should be allcapped, due entirely to the movie. I never knew the comic book version.
    Ehhh, I dunno if I'll stick around. We'll see.

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  19. #19
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    Rem, might I reccomend an easy way to track down some good adult oriented mature comics (non pornographic of course) is to check out the Vertigo label.

    Vertigo was a label which DC printed more adult oriented and experimental comics to keep DC's family friendly name. Many, many great comics have been printed under that label. Including many of the examples suggested such as:
    Sandman, V For Vendetta, Tank Girl, Unknown Soldier, Y: The Last Man and my personal favorite, and candidate for best comic ever, Watchmen.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGI View Post
    Rem, might I reccomend an easy way to track down some good adult oriented mature comics (non pornographic of course) is to check out the Vertigo label.

    Vertigo was a label which DC printed more adult oriented and experimental comics to keep DC's family friendly name. Many, many great comics have been printed under that label. Including many of the examples suggested such as:
    Sandman, V For Vendetta, Tank Girl, Unknown Soldier, Y: The Last Man and my personal favorite, and candidate for best comic ever, Watchmen.
    I agree. V for Vendetta and Watchmen are the sort of comics dreams are made of. They will change you from an American comic book hater into a fan.
    Last edited by Manhattan_Project_2000; 08-16-2007 at 09:32 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan_Project_2000 View Post
    I agree. V for Vendetta and Watchmen are the sort of comics dreams are made of. They will change you from an American comic book hater into a fan.
    How can there be American comic book haters? Impossible!

    Well, let me say that I like both American comic books and Japanese manga. And I'd like to say that American comic books aren't all about super heroes! Some of my favorites don't have anything super about them. And to respond to the aspect of writer-changes, so what? Frank Miller tells a good story no matter who he works for, be it Darkhorse or DC.

    And Japanese manga isn't the prefection many japanophiles crack it out to be. Sure, I like lots of manga and I'm even a sucker for Naruto and Bleach (Naruto is sometimes iffy). But there's plenty of unoriginal and bad publications to say that manga can be trash.

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  22. #22
    Senior Member Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem has much to be proud of Rem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan_Project_2000 View Post
    I agree. V for Vendetta and Watchmen are the sort of comics dreams are made of. They will change you from an American comic book hater into a fan.
    Just for the record I am in no way a hater, I love V for vendetta and all that. But you said it yourself 70% of american comics are super hero based, that is way too many. And as much as I love indie comics the very nature of what they are makes it impossible for them to impact the industry much. Most indie comics deal with a rianbow of topics and if they had wider prints and any sort of way to getting to the masses I think it would do wonders for the U.s industry. But if you don't have a dedicated comics shop (and lets face it most people don't) getting that stuff is increadibly hard. Even online often times just due to small printings. Currently I'm trying to find 7 days to fame but it's out of print and out of stock everywhere and it's only like a year old.
    Just because YOU don't know of them
    I knew about every single title you listed, but like I said a smattering of excellent works (and no one is saying they aren't) doesn't make it a viable genre. Seriously how many romance comics come out a year in the u.s? If the u.s comic industry ever wants to be on the same level as manga they need viable genres that get new entries on a regular basis.

  23. #23
    Senior Member ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo has a reputation beyond repute ParaParaJMo's Avatar
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    And JUST like Manga, 80&#37; of those titles are brushed under the carpet and forgotten.
    Theres been plenty of non-super hero comics in america. Most of them just haven't been popular.
    Like SGI said,
    Yeah, there are some non-super hero comics. Like The History of Violence. Not many people know that that movie was originally a comic. Or the Road to Perdition with Tom Hanks was also a comic that not many people know. 300 doesn't have Superheroes in it either.

    Well, there are thousands of manga published every week in Japan. You'd be surprised how many are popular in Japan and some can take months and maybe generations to come to America. Or some just don't flat out come to America. I've read plenty of titles in Japan last year. Some start out with a cult following and they spread word of mouth and it becomes popular.

    Kurumada Masami's Ringu ni Kakero re-defined manga and put Shounen Jump on the map and is still highly regarded in Japan. If it weren't for this manga, there'd be no DBZ, YYH, or any big Shounen Jump hit. Why hasn't this manga hit outside of Japan and yet Saint Seiya did?

    I'll use Rem's personal favorite, Hokuto no Ken as an example. It's still popular in Japan after 25 years. Despite it's violent content, it was targeted towards kids. They are currently re-making it into movies. Despite its popularity in Japan, it reached little to no fame in America.

    Kurosagi is a pretty bad *** manga and it became a hit TV show last year. It's about scamming scammers!!!

    And I'm pretty sure one of my own personal favorites, Yaoh, would never really be popular in America because it's "too Japanese" with the bar host features over in Japan.

    Check out my anime reviews at: http://www.youtube.com/grapplerjmo

  24. #24
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    @Rem: But, 90% of manga is either stereotypical shojo cruft, or stereotypical shonen cruft. It's a silly argument to lambaste American comics for being overly genre-centric when most manga is too.
    Ehhh, I dunno if I'll stick around. We'll see.

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  25. #25
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    American comics is nice but I prefer manga because I really love anime.




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