Reformed Criminals

[███]

I'm not sure how many people are aware of the case, but I'd like to look at the story of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams. At the age of 17 he and his buddy Raymond Washington created the notorious Crips gang of Los Angeles. The name and the ideas spread into even the most developed countries, creating Crips gangs in place such as Germany and Canada.

Long story short, Tookie was one bad guy. He received a death sentence in 1981 for the murder of 4 people, including his wife. Many people question the legitimacy of the evidence against him. At that time he still proudly promoted his creation. Following nearly a decade of solitary confinement and with time to reflect, Williams entered routine Death Row life seemingly a changed man. He began working on numerous projects and began the promotion of a campaign to stop kids joining gangs. Such were his efforts that in 2001 he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Only the other day, at the age of 51, Williams was executed. Depsite the backing of thousands, including many high profile celebrities such as Snoop Dogg and 50 Cent, who appealed to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to intervene in the case, the court maintained it's decision.

So to the question I guess. I'm going to make the assumption that the person we're talking is about is guilty of some terrible crime. Multiple murders lets say. If, against all the odds, this criminal becomes reformed then should a death sentence ever be dropped? Should a life sentence be reduced? Can people change and if so can we be lenient towards individuals who have committed such terrible acts?

[bttr]

I'm not sure how many people are aware of the case, but I'd like to look at the story of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams. At the age of 17 he and his buddy Raymond Washington created the notorious Crips gang of Los Angeles. The name and the ideas spread into even the most developed countries, creating Crips gangs in place such as Germany and Canada.

Long story short, Tookie was one bad guy. He received a death sentence in 1981 for the murder of 4 people, including his wife. Many people question the legitimacy of the evidence against him. At that time he still proudly promoted his creation. Following nearly a decade of solitary confinement and with time to reflect, Williams entered routine Death Row life seemingly a changed man. He began working on numerous projects and began the promotion of a campaign to stop kids joining gangs. Such were his efforts that in 2001 he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Only the other day, at the age of 51, Williams was executed. Depsite the backing of thousands, including many high profile celebrities such as Snoop Dogg and 50 Cent, who appealed to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to intervene in the case, the court maintained it's decision.

So to the question I guess. I'm going to make the assumption that the person we're talking is about is guilty of some terrible crime. Multiple murders lets say. If, against all the odds, this criminal becomes reformed then should a death sentence ever be dropped? Should a life sentence be reduced? Can people change and if so can we be lenient towards individuals who have committed such terrible acts?

Man you type alot(I can't be bothered)and prisoners can change I think .

[pfftlecakes]

This is interesting because recently, this topic came up among friends.

The United States justice system was based on giving the accused the ability to reform with jailtime (the death penalty in general goes against this system, but that isn't to say it's never a better idea than a life sentence; that's not what this is about, though). If the system that the government is using is meant to rehabilitate these criminals, then you can assume that some of the 'bad guys' in question will actually reform themselves during their sentence. That's just the way it was meant to be and it's going to keep happening.

Simply going off this, the wrongdoer should be released after their transformation into a generally good citizen. Usually, these folks are given a parole officer to check that they're not getting into more dasterdly deeds that would wind them right back in jail. This is to ensure that they really are a 'reformed' criminal.

Alright, so that's well and good, but what about the people who do things so rotten and horrid that they can't be forgiven? Is there such a person and is there such a trespass?

[miniPhil]

Alright, so that's well and good, but what about the people who do things so rotten and horrid that they can't be forgiven? Is there such a person and is there such a trespass?

Theres no such thing as not being able to forgive someone, there is no deed too evil and sick that cannot be forgiven. Forgiveness is all about being able to let something in the past go.

[Ayame_Sohma]

I believe if you take someone life away..then you should get pushiment for that crime...I dont believe a truly evil person can change..they maye want other people to believe they have..so maybe they get off death row or less sentence.

[miniPhil]

I believe if you take someone life away..then you should get pushiment for that crime...I dont believe a turly evil person can change..they maye want other people to believe they have..so maybe they get off death row or less sentence.

There is no such thing as a truly evil person. Even if there was such a thing a persons personality is based on their experience, so if bad experiences mad them evil then good ones can change them.

[Ayame_Sohma]

I really disagree with you..I do believe that there are some people in this world who are turly evil and blame it on there bad experience they have had in there life but this is not an excuse for what they did or shouldnt be allowed to forgiven for it either..

[miniPhil]

I really disagree with you..I do believe that there are some people in this world who are turly evil and blame it on there bad experience they have had in there life but this is not an excuse for what they did or shouldnt be allowed to forgiven for it either..

Thats the most ridicule's thing ive heard today. People aren't born with a personality, it changes over time. People aren't truly evil when they are born, they are nieve and innocent (just like all children(or rather ignorant people)). If someone's personality changes then they are not the same person they were before and can be forgiven.

p.s. I made the word truly bold in my last post not for emphasis but because you had spelt it wrong.

[Eris]

p.s. I made the word truly bold in my last post not for emphasis but because you had spelt it wrong.

Use [sic] instead, it's more common practice.

[ParaParaJMo]

Dog Chapman used to be a very bad guy. He was in a motorcycle gang.



Dog Chapman always tells his catches that they have a chance to restart.

[Acnologia]

If a prisoner has truely changed, than their death sentence should be lifted and they given a second chance at life. If they murder or commit again, than back to the original sentence.

Anyone can change, back in grade 7 I tried to murder my father on many occasions. After getting help I no longer want to, I instead avoid him and refuse talking to him because of all the pain he caused me.

[genericusername2]

Well this is simply a case of for or against capital punishment.

In this case though, think of the message it sends out to would-be murderers or gang members that no mercy or pardon was offered to someone who truly did reform. I'm pretty 50/50 on capital punishment in general but I believe that to deter crime in general the authorities that be must follow through with whatever punishment is sentenced. It's fitting that he spent the latter years of his life trying to deter kids from gangs, because I think the example California has set by killing this man is a much more powerful deterrant than any of his books will be.

Altough interestingly enough, America has far more harsher punishments (even excluding capital punishment) than the UK has (ours are actually a joke in comparison) but the UK assault/murder/theft crime levels are lower across the board than the US so at the same time my argument for killing him shows that harsh punishment isn't really a detterant for most criminals.

[███]

Yes, it's admirable that Mr. Williams tried to atone for the life of crime he led and for perpetuating the gang-life while he was young. But for some who have seen the effects of what gang violence has done to neighborhoods his quest for redemption for his past deeds rings hollow when he tells kids not to get into gangs but refuses to publicly denounce the same gang he helped create. Williams had ample opportunity to help state law enforcement authorities in regards to how the Crips and its offshoots operated, but Williams refused time and time again. His reason being that it was all in his past and he didn't want to dwell on the past but work on sending his anti-gang message to the youth of today.

His neighborhood in South Central where he grew up and formed the Westside Crips were asked if Tookie Williams deserve to receive clemency from being executed and a majority of its residences said no. These are the same people who are still under siege from the Crips and the Bloods who have staked their territories in the neighborhood. One person summed it up by pointing out that Williams was found guilty by a jury of his peers and the act he committed deserved the punishment. These same people also don't see any change in gang-violence and membership in their neighborhoods. Their take on this whole thing is that these gangmembers don't see Williams' as a person who has redeemed himself, but as one of the gang's past ghetto stars (gang teminology for a member who has attained superstar status in the gang community). They don't care about his Nobel Peace Prize nominations or his children's books.

Williams' supporters point out that he may not have committed the crime and that he should get clemency and his sentence commuted to life while they re-try him. Every court from local, state and federal have denied this request. Every court brief summarizing their decisions have pointed out that Williams' attorneys have not given enough proof to even reach the minimum standards of reasonable doubt to overturn the original jury's decision. This includes the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals which is called by the neo-conservatives and Republicans as the most liberal, left-wing, bleeding-hearts appeals court in the nation. If they can't find a reason to overturn the verdict in Williams' case then no one else could.

Williams' anti-gang message is honorable at face value and shows that a person might be able to change their ways, but even in death his message will still live on long after they've given him his proper burial. Does a redeemed criminal deserve to have his sentence lessened just so he can continue to preach his positive message? I say no for the same reason that anyone can use the precedent of Williams getting his bid for clemency as a blueprint to keep themselves from being executed. A punishment legal under law of the land has no power if special cases have to be made for people deemed special in the eyes of a political group. He redeemed himself for his past life as a gang-member, but never showed remorse, compassion or any sort of atonement for the four lives he took. As the governor said in his press conference --- to explain why he denied Williams clemency --- a person cannot truly be redeemed of his crimes if he cannot show remorse for the crime that he was convicted on.

I am neither for or against the death penalty, but I am not naive enough to say that there may be people on death row who are innocent of the crimes they were convicted for, but all evidence on Williams shows that he did the crime and everyone involved with the case --- with the exception of his counsel --- believe him to be guilty. As for the people who supported him, their cause is not something to ridicule or made fun of but not once did they give Williams' victims their due. An eye for an eye legal system may seem barbaric to some people, but until the state and its people decide to vote to repeal it then it's still the law of the land and the will of the people to want it to continue.

[genericusername2]

I don't believe anyone should ever be sentenced to death for their crimes.

I also believe that if psychologists and medical professionals believe the criminal has made a complete 'recovery' and can be integrated back into society beyond a very strict definition of what that would entail, then once a sentence has been served, he should be released.

I don't know much about this case in question so I cannot comment. Wow to him being voted for the Nobel Peace Prize though. What inspired his turnaround? Being sentenced to death, I would imagine. So not religion or anything like that? Still decent enough a reason I guess.This is basically a capital punishment case. Beyond the fact of it being the law of the land, is capital punishment right?
What should it be based upon, what is effective(realism), what history dictates, reasoning, or morals? Tookie williams was sentenced to death, and if it had happened two days after the court case he would have been a murderer that was executed. The fact it happened so many years later means that he was a slightly older murderer that was executed.

Anything he did inbetween was an attempt to be let off this sentence, but unless he can raise the dead that he murderered, he couldn't have made up for it.

[███]

I'm sure there was religious overtones, but, then again, a lot of death-row inmates have religious epiphanies and "reform" as they call for clemency. There's a saying that no one in a fox-hole dies an athiest, meaning that, when people see the end coming, many of them grab onto some belief so it doesn't really seem like the end.

[ParaParaJMo]

I don't 100% agree with the death penalty unless it's totally proven they are the criminal. People have been falsely executed before. It just needs to be used properly. But I heard because of appeal after appeal, I heard it costs more money to execute someone than to put them in jail for the rest of their life.

Another reformed criminal example.

Lightheavy weight champion Bernard Hopkins. He served time for 3rd degree robbery. The guy re formed himself by becoming a prison champion and he became one of the longest reigning champions. And now he's a special symbol to the people of Philadelphia.

[akiko_kalla]

Do I think people can change? Yes. Do I think they can be made to change? No. A person has to want to change and in some cases where there is a biological component, they may not be able to until we have a better understanding of the disease.

As far as the justice system, I think it is very poor. And I'm not saying anyone else's is any better, but any system that has mandatory sentencing without actually looking at the case is already very biased and in my opinion invalid. I do not think the justice system is designed to help criminals to change, in fact I think it does the opposite.

It makes it more difficult for them to find a job because they have a record, it often burdens the family to the point it affects much more than just one life, it puts the person in an environment that is often quite harsh rather than supportive, and they are set up to constantly be set apart or lower in society rather than accepted back into it.

In short, can they be reformed? I believe some, especially young ones, can be. I just feel our justice system does more to perpetuate the criminal behavior rather than to change it.

[WhatIsAUserName]

I completely think that while people can change, it doesn't matter to me if they've completely reformed. For example, if person A kills person B, they're going to be fully punished for that even if they do reform. Just because halfway through, somebody turned "good" doesn't mean they should get let off their punishment. That's why I think it was only fair that Mr. Williams be executed for those 4 murders, regardless of his reformation.

While many may protest at such an opinion, I believe it's only fair. Even if he had completely reformed, it's not bringing his murder victims back.

And another thing- jails weren't first designed with the notion of rehabilitation in mind, they were to keep the criminals away from the citizens.

[pfftlecakes]

And another thing- jails weren't first designed with the notion of rehabilitation in mind, they were to keep the criminals away from the citizens.

Jail is not the matter at hand. The system in which we use jails is.

"I think.. we think if somebody kills someone, that's murder, you go to prison. You kill ten people, you go to Texas, they hit you with a brick, that's what they do. Twenty people, you go to a hospital, they look through a small window at you forever. Over that, we can't deal with it."
-Eddie Izzard

[spleeee!]

I'm not sure how many people are aware of the case, but I'd like to look at the story of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams. At the age of 17 he and his buddy Raymond Washington created the notorious Crips gang of Los Angeles. The name and the ideas spread into even the most developed countries, creating Crips gangs in place such as Germany and Canada.

Long story short, Tookie was one bad guy. He received a death sentence in 1981 for the murder of 4 people, including his wife. Many people question the legitimacy of the evidence against him. At that time he still proudly promoted his creation. Following nearly a decade of solitary confinement and with time to reflect, Williams entered routine Death Row life seemingly a changed man. He began working on numerous projects and began the promotion of a campaign to stop kids joining gangs. Such were his efforts that in 2001 he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Only the other day, at the age of 51, Williams was executed. Depsite the backing of thousands, including many high profile celebrities such as Snoop Dogg and 50 Cent, who appealed to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to intervene in the case, the court maintained it's decision.

So to the question I guess. I'm going to make the assumption that the person we're talking is about is guilty of some terrible crime. Multiple murders lets say. If, against all the odds, this criminal becomes reformed then should a death sentence ever be dropped? Should a life sentence be reduced? Can people change and if so can we be lenient towards individuals who have committed such terrible acts?

omg that was the first post ive seen that was longer than the sig.
of the poster...(heh dots)...just thought id say that.