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Thread: Crime and punishment

  1. #1
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    Default Crime and punishment

    This thread is not about the book by Fyodor Dostoevsky, but about crime and punishment. To sum things up: What punishment do you find suitable for what crime? Don't resort into spam, flames or name-calling (yes, that goes for you too Darth Tyranus), or I will be forced to smite you with my stick of spam-smitage +5. Also, please post more than "me too", or "i dunno", if that's all you're going to say you might aswell post somewhere else.

    I believe in two ways of dealing with crime, in the first way you look at the offender as a victim of society or mental illness. The bankrobber was driven to robbing the bank because society did not properly educate him so that he could get an ordinary job. The serial-killer is mentally ill, and needs help. Currently we treat the symptom, not the disease. These people need help, and all we do is sweep them under the rug (put them in jail). So essentially, you stop locking people up, and find what's causing people to commit crime, whether it is mental illness or a flawed education system and do something about that.

    The other way is inhuman draconian punishments for all offenses. Think middle ages: Cut the hands off the robber, castrate the rapist, burn the murderer at a stake. You get the picture. Even though some people would be innocent, the punishment isn't really as much a punishment, but a clear message to others not to commit crime. Punishments so inhuman that nobody, no matter how deranged would ever even think of committing a crime.
    Last edited by Eris; 12-16-2005 at 07:12 PM.

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    I think the Punishment for all the crimes that are commited should be multiplied and made more saveer (I have no idea how to spell that) So that people will be afriad to commit a crime of any type... But then again im uneducated in politics or what ever catergory this goes under...
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    I agree that there are times that a person is more likely to commit a crime due to there environment or upbringing. But to blame it on society all the time is ridiculous. There are things in this world that are just common sense. You don't take other peoples things, you don't kill people. Common sense things that a persons concience will warn them not to do.
    You may not have explained to a child that stealing is wrong or even what stealing is but if a child were to take something that does not belong to them they will usually try to hide it. Why? Because they instinctively know it's wrong and don't want to get caught. (And don't tell me thats not true because I have seen it happen many times and I have done it myself)
    I would like to see some of the "lesser" crimes have a penalty other than jail time. Granted there are some crimes that you should definitely go to jail for (armed robbery, assault) but there are crimes where I feel community service would be a better option (jay walking, graffiti, litering). The reason is because it cost taxpayers a ridiculouse amount of money to keep 1 person in jail for a year.
    When someone is on deathrow for killing 8 people and has been convincingly found guilty with a confession, videotape evidence and a letter from his mother saying he did it, the execution should be the following week. No need to spend thousands of dollars housing this guy in jail. If there is a reasonable doubt I could understand them having a stay of execution.
    I feel that whenever possible the punishment for the crime should give back to the victim in some way. If I ran things people would be afraid to commit crimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha Mugetsu
    You may not have explained to a child that stealing is wrong or even what stealing is but if a child were to take something that does not belong to them they will usually try to hide it. Why? Because they instinctively know it's wrong and don't want to get caught. (And don't tell me thats not true because I have seen it happen many times and I have done it myself).
    But that is based on the concept of a pre-defined morality in all humans. That is, in my opinion blatantly flawed; your mind tells you to do what you gain from, stealing can be such a thing, and you hide it because you know there will be reprecussions otherwise; not that you know it is wrong.

    Why do you think the criminals should be locked up? All that does is keep them off the streets, there will still be new criminals, it's not at all dealing with why people become criminals in the first place. And it is obviously not strong enough to deter crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselmannen
    But that is based on the concept of a pre-defined morality in all humans. That is, in my opinion blatantly flawed; your mind tells you to do what you gain from, stealing can be such a thing, and you hide it because you know there will be reprecussions otherwise; not that you know it is wrong.

    Why do you think the criminals should be locked up? All that does is keep them off the streets, there will still be new criminals, it's not at all dealing with why people become criminals in the first place. And it is obviously not strong enough to deter crime.
    The reason that they know there will be reprecussions is because what they did was wrong. If what they did was the correct thing to do then there would be no reprecussions.
    I don't think all criminals should be locked up. The fact is that it costs a lot of money. Money that could be used to make improvements that would deter crime (social security, education, housing, ect). I would rather as few people as possible be locked up. But there are some who are dangers to society as a whole and should be sent to correctional facilities.
    And believe me, the thought of going to jail is a crime deterant for many (myself included). Have you ever seen Oz? Would you like to live there for 5-10 years? I doubt it.
    The problem with most correctional facilities is that they don't correct anything. A lot of criminals see it as a place to chill for a while where you get to eat 3 meals a day, work out, watch tv and learn from others how to be a better criminal. It's like giving a child a "time out". "Go stand in the corner for 5 minutes and think about what you did". They'll think about it all right. They'll think about how to do it so that they wont get caught next time.
    They need to make reforms in the system so that when they come out of jail thay can be a more productive person instead of a more dangerous criminal. And I don't mean dangerous as in violent. I mean dangerous as in better at it. They should concentrate more on teaching them useful skills and finding out why the individual did the crime instead of setting up cable tv in every cell as an attempt to pacify them.

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    I think if you show a criminal the way of help they can either learn from it or continue to do what they have done and that is to commit crimes, you can't stop people from doing what is wrong because most are ignorant and do not care but what but I do think the government and such do not pay attention to the crimes that had been commited and just lock them in jail or execute them and some people don't even deserve it, like when someone you see on news would be put to death for somthing you saw last week that was much more cruel and he was put in jail?Though I don't think It's right for another human being to judge anothers persons death, I say hey if they do something that stupid put them in jail for life if they had really commited a serious crime like terrorism or murder, for the others who knows maybe you can't or can help them....

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    if someone murders somebody, they should be murdered also. if someone robs someone, they should have all of their possesions takin away. if someone does drugs, the should be put in an insane asylum. anything else, they can be put in jail. there's my opinion.

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    I believe in two ways of dealing with crime, in the first way you look at the offender as a victim of society or mental illness. The bankrobber was driven to robbing the bank because society did not properly educate him so that he could get an ordinary job. The serial-killer is mentally ill, and needs help. Currently we treat the symptom, not the disease. These people need help, and all we do is sweep them under the rug (put them in jail). So essentially, you stop locking people up, and find what's causing people to commit crime, whether it is mental illness or a flawed education system and do something about that.
    I just want to say that some criminals are unfixable and can only be locked up.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir
    I just want to say that some criminals are unfixable and can only be locked up.
    Criminals in general are hard to fix, because when the harm is done, it's done; they're already criminal and there is very little to do about it. You can try reintegration programs, but they will in many cases not be very effective. As I said, you need to look at why they become criminals in the first place and deal with that.

    Then there's the mentally ill category, they are even harder to "fix", and may need locking up for their own and their surrounding's sake. But they shouldn't rot away in some cell, who are we to keep them from living a decent life?

    Quote Originally Posted by rodruiguez is fat
    if someone murders somebody, they should be murdered also. if someone robs someone, they should have all of their possesions takin away. if someone does drugs, the should be put in an insane asylum. anything else, they can be put in jail. there's my opinion.
    So in your book, two wrongs make a right? Can you elaborate on why that is? And insane asylum? Why on earth would you want to put them there?
    Last edited by Eris; 12-16-2005 at 07:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodruiguez is fat
    if someone murders somebody, they should be murdered also. if someone robs someone, they should have all of their possesions takin away. if someone does drugs, the should be put in an insane asylum. anything else, they can be put in jail. there's my opinion.
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    hmmmm....I think Humans crimes of overpopulating and devastating this planets enviroment should be mass culling, cull it down to a few hundred thousand people.
    of cause not everyone consideres them crimes, or that culling is the right way to go about it. But lets face it unless we find a new habitable planet and develop the technology to get us there soon, things are only going to get worse...

    Hmmmm.....i will make a serious post of my thoughs on crime & punishment later....

    Originaly posted by Rodruiguez is fat
    if someone murders somebody, they should be murdered also. if someone robs someone, they should have all of their possesions takin away. if someone does drugs, the should be put in an insane asylum. anything else, they can be put in jail. there's my opinion.
    guess thats where i should be.....along with billions of other people...lol..




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    Criminals in general are hard to fix, because when the harm is done, it's done; they're already criminal and there is very little to do about it. You can try reintegration programs, but they will in many cases not be very effective. As I said, you need to look at why they become criminals in the first place and deal with that.

    Then there's the mentally ill category, they are even harder to "fix", and may need locking up for their own and their surrounding's sake. But they shouldn't rot away in some cell, who are we to keep them from living a decent life?
    If they ruined someone elses life shouldn't they deserve what goes around comes around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselmannen
    So in your book, two wrongs make a right? Can you elaborate on why that is? And insane asylum? Why on earth would you want to put them there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha Mugetsu
    The reason that they know there will be reprecussions is because what they did was wrong. If what they did was the correct thing to do then there would be no reprecussions.
    I don't think all criminals should be locked up. The fact is that it costs a lot of money. Money that could be used to make improvements that would deter crime (social security, education, housing, ect). I would rather as few people as possible be locked up. But there are some who are dangers to society as a whole and should be sent to correctional facilities.
    And believe me, the thought of going to jail is a crime deterant for many (myself included). Have you ever seen Oz? Would you like to live there for 5-10 years? I doubt it.
    The problem with most correctional facilities is that they don't correct anything. A lot of criminals see it as a place to chill for a while where you get to eat 3 meals a day, work out, watch tv and learn from others how to be a better criminal. It's like giving a child a "time out". "Go stand in the corner for 5 minutes and think about what you did". They'll think about it all right. They'll think about how to do it so that they wont get caught next time.
    They need to make reforms in the system so that when they come out of jail thay can be a more productive person instead of a more dangerous criminal. And I don't mean dangerous as in violent. I mean dangerous as in better at it. They should concentrate more on teaching them useful skills and finding out why the individual did the crime instead of setting up cable tv in every cell as an attempt to pacify them.
    Actually, they are most likely reading your face and actions and tone of voice and it appears they could be in trouble. Especially if they are young. They become anxious and so hide the only thing that has changed instinctively. They do not know stealing is wrong instinctively, they read your body language instinctively and instinctively look at what has changed that could have lead to this undesired behavior. Just like a dog that pee-ed on the carpet...they don't know any better, but they are responding like they are guilty because of your reaction.

    And I see plenty of students who get taken away and spend the night in jail, or are taken to a prison to see what life is like, or even have their father or brother in prison...it's no deterrant for some people. The problem isn't fear of prison or punishment, the problem is fear of the life they may have to live otherwise.

    Most criminals do NOT start with that viewpoint. They are scared to death although they may act tough. Criminals are people too and have emotions and thoughts the same as any other--you don't know why they were motivated for a crime or if they were wrongly accused. They throw children into prison with hardened criminals and you say reform? I agree, they should reform, but throwing someone in jail just because they are 18, 19, 20...that's only going to damage them more. You can't drink your sorrows away yet, but you can die for your country or spend life in prison. The thing is, once they get out society has thrown them away so they usually are left with no choice but crime. Then this becomes a cycle and the mindset you are referring to sets in...after all, why try if I can mooch off a government that thinks I'm trash anyway? If you really want to reform criminals, you need to get rid of the crappy programs this country uses for profiling and evaluating.

    Mandatory sentences are issued, regardless of circumstance or severity. For example, take the person who is stupid and has something illegal...they get the same sentences as the one creating it in some cases. Judges cannot throw out cases they really should not be in their court because of these laws...so there really is no point to judge anymore except to say what the government has already decided before ever hearing your case. Once accused of a crime, true or not, if you are seeking reform the government repeatedly tells you how terrible you are and that any accomplishments--such as finding a real job--are not anything to be big. If you don't fit into their box, they evaluate you until you do. And it doesn't matter if someone else has evaluated you, only the government people have a say in if you are reformed or not. Now, as a criminal why on earth would I want to try to reform in a society that has shuned me and a government that tears me down when I try to better my life?
    Last edited by akiko_kalla; 12-16-2005 at 09:26 PM.
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    "For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach." ~J.R.R. Tolkien

  16. #16
    Senior Member SilverOcean has a spectacular aura about SilverOcean has a spectacular aura about SilverOcean's Avatar
    Gil
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselmannen
    I believe in two ways of dealing with crime, in the first way you look at the offender as a victim of society or mental illness.
    Yeah, sure every prisoner has a sob story and is 'innocent'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselmannen
    The bankrobber was driven to robbing the bank because society did not properly educate him so that he could get an ordinary job.
    Natural fertillizer, he's lazy and is probably an adrenaline junkie. People are naturally selfish. Some are just too lazy to work hard for what they want.

    Society doesn't education anyone. Each person has to make the effort to learn what they need. But a compassionate society will take care of the people who are too disabled to care for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselmannen
    The serial-killer is mentally ill, and needs help
    The serial killer, whether or not he is mentally ill, needs to be confined to protect society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselmannen
    The other way is inhuman draconian punishments for all offenses. Think middle ages: Cut the hands off the robber, castrate the rapist, burn the murderer at a stake. You get the picture. Even though some people would be innocent, the punishment isn't really as much a punishment, but a clear message to others not to commit crime. Punishments so inhuman that nobody, no matter how deranged would ever even think of committing a crime.
    I doubt that deterring crime was the motive for those type of punishments; it was about revenge and imposing the 'ruler's will on the people. Or it was coupled with religious laws/beliefs imposing those types of punishments. In traditional societies social pressure to conform and ostrascism of those who did not were the main reasons there was less crime. Punishments like branding or cutting off hands were visible reminders of just what crime a person had committed and they would never be free of it.
    Last edited by SilverOcean; 12-16-2005 at 09:30 PM.


  17. #17
    4: [Classified brah] Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris has a reputation beyond repute Eris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir
    If they ruined someone elses life shouldn't they deserve what goes around comes around?
    How would punishing the murderer bring back the victim? I really do not see how condoning the victim's sadistic need for revenge is going to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverOcean
    The serial killer, whether or not he is mentally ill, needs to be confined to protect society.
    Like I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Diselmannen
    Then there's the mentally ill category, they are even harder to "fix", and may need locking up for their own and their surrounding's sake. But they shouldn't rot away in some cell, who are we to keep them from living a decent life?
    Last edited by Eris; 12-17-2005 at 09:46 AM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member SilverOcean has a spectacular aura about SilverOcean has a spectacular aura about SilverOcean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselmannen
    Like I said:

    Then there's the mentally ill category, they are even harder to "fix", and may need locking up for their own and their surrounding's sake. But they shouldn't rot away in some cell, who are we to keep them from living a decent life?



    Assuming they have NOT been convicted of a crime, a large percentage of mentally ill cannot function according to society's rules and laws, which is needed to live a "decent" life for themselves and those around them. If they are not dangerous, a combination of therapy and medication may enable some to at least function, but it is probably necessary that they have someone who is able to help them keep on track and keep taking the medication. Most of the mental illnesses due to physiological problems don't get better with just therapy. Some years back, 70's or 80's I think, funding for mental hospitals was cut and a large number of mentally ill were simply dumped into society with no follow on care. A large number of these are found among the homeless.


  19. #19
    [K_K]'z Death Plague akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla has a reputation beyond repute akiko_kalla's Avatar
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    A lot of "non-ill" people live life and bypass laws and rules all the time. In fact many abuse them. And they live quite well. Society also bends rules all the time when it suits the ones in charge. But yes, many do need someone to help them, but that doesn't mean that they should be locked away. They are still people and have feelings and emotions just like everyone else. In many cases the situation may not have occurred if the problem was addressed at an earlier age/stage in the person's life. Sometimes it doesn't matter.

    I honestly don't think most criminals fall into this untreatable category although many may have some psychological damage. What matters is if they WANT to live in society the way everyone else does. Many of my students parents do not wish to live in an "acceptable" way, so they don't. Their crimes just aren't enough for them to end in prison with the justice system.

    I think the problem is we don't yet know enough about the brain to be able to help someone who is legitimately "ill"--but that is our shortcoming, not theirs. They deserve to be happy. If the only way they can achieve that is through criminal acts against others or themself, they will need constant help and I honestly don't know an answer for that situation other than I have seen minor cases where once the root problem is identified, the person can better cope with life and finds other means for happiness. If they are truly mentally ill and don't understand what is happening, they still deserve to be treated with the same respect and love as any other human being. Locking someone away in a cell with little to no human contact will only worsen the problem. (And I know there are places that are decent for them to go, but many are not.) We cannot judge if someone, sane or not, is leading a happy life; we can only say if we saw them committ a crime.

    And if that's true, that bit about the mentally ill being homeless is terrible. Although it is once again demonstrating the symptom rather than the problem.
    Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.

    My silence could mean you are not worth the argument.

    "For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach." ~J.R.R. Tolkien

  20. #20
    Senior Member rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat is infamous around these parts rodruiguez is fat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselmannen
    So in your book, two wrongs make a right? Can you elaborate on why that is? And insane asylum? Why on earth would you want to put them there?
    no, i'm just saying that if someone wants to do something to someone else that they should see what it feels like. and people who do drugs are CRAZY! they ruin your lungs, your mentality, and pretty much everything else that people might like about you... jeez.....

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