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Thread: Yep, this just happened ...

  1. #26
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnyside View Post
    Though, while I suspect you're right about this being subways idea as a way to make more money, why are you calling this a racist thing?
    I'm not. I am merely pointing out that this whole discussion about Muslims probably wouldn't have happened if facts were looked up first. I was mainly pointing at Ranshiin when I said that because his previous post was about how this "bacongate" incident "proves" how "[Muslims are] all quite happy to stuff their laws and religion down our throats but won't accept ours."

    In the end, Subway wasn't forced to do anything by anybody, so this "proves" nothing about Muslims or anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    You shouldn't take their word alone on anything, but to be honest I don't think you should take The Guardian on their word alone either.
    I don't trust any single source; hence why I always look things up first. Two separate sources linking to one source that already has a slant is immediately suspicious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    In the best case scenario (i.e. most passive and peaceful), those branches are located in parts of the UK where the Islamic population has completely taken over to the point that serving pork is not profitable. Even in this case it is important to make note of how Islamic culture is influencing parts of the UK culture. It has cultural significance.
    I am aware that it is. Profitability versus protest is precisely what lead Subway to start their halal program in the first place. There is a large Muslim population in the neighborhood. They don't want to eat at that restaurant because it serves pork and non-halal meats. Restaurant loses money. Restaurant switches to halal meats to gain new customers. The issue is...what now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Sure, you can continue to throw "racism" at people for simply pointing at this elephant, and you will successfully silence a lot of people by doing so. The thing is, not all of them will remained silenced and instead will be pushed from rational concern to an irrational hatred.
    As I pointed out earlier, the racist parts were coming from Ranshiin's previous post. It wasn't about the changes in culture but jabs at an entire people, which, ya know, is quite racist, justified or not. A culture might be growing around you, but if businesses decide to cater to the new culture while turning away from other people in order to make a shilling, then you can blame good old fashioned capitalism for that.

    And again, the only insinuation being made here, from The Daily Mail and from the name of the thread itself (I never said that there was anything more), is that this is in anyway new, that this is a sudden decision born out of the ether when it is not or that this is happening at all Subways when it is not. This has been going on for over half a decade so either people haven't caught on or there is something going on that warrants attention.

    But on its own, this is nothing that should really matter to anybody. It is 13% of Subways where you can't a Meatball Marinara sub...well, one made of pork. Is this the start of a cultural revolution? Where our meatballs are made of turkey? EGADS!!
    This is my war face.

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  3. #27
    Considerably vexed, sir? Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin has a reputation beyond repute Ranshiin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    But on its own, this is nothing that should really matter to anybody. It is 13% of Subways where you can't a Meatball Marinara sub...well, one made of pork.
    I can name plenty of people that are pissed off by this.

     
    You're also somewhat missing the point that whilst, yes, this is a minor problem that could be ignored, that's exactly what the people that caused this whole issue in the first place want you to do. They expect you to back down and to be 'reasonable' about it - but as I said it's one 'minor' problem ... that's adding up with dozens of other minor problems coming towards the answer of people taking advantage of the fear of being accused of cultural or racial discrimination to get what they want, as opposed to following the rules and traditions of the country that they have moved to.



    Please spare me a two-page-long argument on this because no offense to you - but you're not English. You might think that doesn't mean anything but you don't live in this country and you don't know what things like this represent. I'm making a big deal out of it because it's another example of Muslims immigrating to my country, and telling me what to do because it offends them. Meanwhile, if I tell them what to do because they offend me, I'm immediately a racist.

    That's the whole point of this. Our government and councils (and in this case our food chains) are so feeble and scared of doing anything remotely offensive that they're offending their most important citizens by trying to stay as 'politically correct' as possible - the citizens that were born, raised and have always lived in this country. The citizens that are actually British.

    As I said I don't want to start coming across as being racist but again, it's only 200 stores, right? What's to stop them rallying to ban bacon from the other 1,300 stores? Or from using this as a sign that they can get away with it and moving on to bigger things? Burger King, Greggs, even KFC? And above all things, our local Subway really did -not- need this sort of publicity. Our town center is a ghost town as it is; it's literally becoming more and more populated by Polish clubs and halal-only kebab shops.


    Whether the source can be trusted or not, the fact is that I can thoroughly confirm that they have done this, and I did. This is a real thing. How about I move to Virginia and start lobbying to have all the road-signs changed to the ones we use in Britain because I find your road signs and metrics offensive to my culture? That's absolutely absurd and ridiculous and you're going to laugh at me for even suggesting that but this whole bacon ban debacle is the same sort of ridiculous that this country, with its politically-correct government of shame, has let people that aren't even truly British get away with.



    Feel free to dislike/neg me if you think I'm wrong on all this, I honestly don't care. Though I'm using spoilers because I'm aware this has gotten a very borderline subject.

    I have a cold so I'm going back to bed, probably, after I've made a bacon sandwich. At least the butchers' haven't been banned for being offensive yet.
    Last edited by Ranshiin; 05-04-2014 at 07:07 AM.
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  4. #28
    Yoko Littner Fan Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio has a reputation beyond repute Wio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    As I pointed out earlier, the racist parts were coming from Ranshiin's previous post. It wasn't about the changes in culture but jabs at an entire people, which, ya know, is quite racist, justified or not.
    Let's be clear about one thing at the very least. This has everything to do about culture and race is an incidental part of it. The best way of identifying the culture at play here is with the words "Islam" and "Muslim", but if you have some other word you think is appropriate you are free to suggest one. If you are going to interpret Islam and Muslim as a reference to the race of the plurality of Muslim UK immigrants, then you are confusing the issue.

    So while most people know better than to criticize race, it is perfectly reasonable to criticize a culture. A culture is a collection of ideas shared by a group of people. Ideas can be good and bad. Even by simply criticizing some idea on its own, you are inadvertently criticizing any culture which harbors that idea. Which isn't to say that Islamic culture is bad, but that criticizing it is a perfectly rational thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    A culture might be growing around you, but if businesses decide to cater to the new culture while turning away from other people in order to make a shilling, then you can blame good old fashioned capitalism for that.
    Capitalism is doing exactly what it should be doing here. If the culture changes, the businesses should accommodate that change.

    The problem is the nature of the cultural change. It would be one thing if there was some UK counter culture that decided that pigs make cool pets, and thus eating pork no longer sat well with them. However these changes are happening completely independently of native UK culture, at the expense of native UK culture, due to an influx of immigrants that aren't naturalizing as intended.

    First generation immigrants are typically a lost cause, but this is perfectly fine so long as their children grow up surrounded by a super majority of native children (3rd generation or greater). There is where assimilation really happens, where the native culture absorbs the parts of the new culture that if finds worthwhile, while still maintaining it position as the dominant culture. The only problem is if this assimilation process is undermined by immigrants self segregating into their own communities.

    And the problem here isn't that one culture is bad while the other is good, but that neither culture has been properly exposed to each other. No melting has occurred. This naturally causes resentment between communities, and those who are most justified in feeling resentment are the natives living in areas that are drastically changed by an external culture. I say that because immigrants consent to enter into a new culture while natives have a new cultured forced upon them.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    And again, the only insinuation being made here, from The Daily Mail and from the name of the thread itself (I never said that there was anything more), is that this is in anyway new, that this is a sudden decision born out of the ether when it is not or that this is happening at all Subways when it is not. This has been going on for over half a decade so either people haven't caught on or there is something going on that warrants attention.
    Look, if someone said half a decade ago that there would be Halal Subways, they would be swarmed by oikophobes accusing them of xenophobia, racism, paranoia and religious intolerance. This is at the very least vindication for people who have had concerns about immigration.

  5. #29
    Senior Member sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranshiin View Post
    They were refused on the grounds of bacon being banned due to protest.
    That appears to be a very specific claim. Since you actually are around the affected locations have you thought about asking some specific questions about how things went down and how they came across that information (a minimum wage sandwich stuffer might only actually have their own speculation about management decisions, on the other hand they're on the front lines and might have been the ones taking complaints/seeing protests etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    oikophobes
    I had to look that up. Interesting concept, and I can appreciate the rhetorical efficacy of being able to label one's opponents a somethingphobe these days, but I rather wish they could have come up with some new term instead of trying to redefine an existing medical term. There has to be some latin word or phase they could have busted out.

  6. #30
    Heartless Angel Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost has a reputation beyond repute Alice Lost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    I actually have to go with the idea that "If you don't like eating pork, don't eat at a place that sells it. ...or simply order something else."
    I can only post one day a week. ...Phooey.

  7. #31
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranshiin View Post
    I can name plenty of people that are pissed off by this.
    I bet you could. Although, it wouldn't make your opinions any more justified or any less bigoted.

    I will sum it up this way. Simple capitalism is at work here. Supply and demand. Some Muslims demanded halal meats and Subway supplied them. People complaining to companies about things that they want is not new in the West; it is almost a defining feature. Subway is a private company free to do what they want, so don't get pissed when a new group of people decided to play the same game that you are playing.

    Subway could have ignored them, but they didn't, so the blame falls squarely on Subway, not Muslims. Subway is to blame. Blame them for ignoring the "truly British". Blame them for being a shameful, PC restaurant willing to bend over backwards for another culture so that they could stroke their seemingly-not-racist knobs for cash. But don't blame Muslims. They didn't do anything different from anybody else.

    If you want something, then you ask. This is something that is taught to toddlers. If a kid is at another house, he can still ask for something. If your mom switches to V8 fruit punch instead of Hawaiian Punch to cater to your classmate's "no HFCS diet", then you get mad at your mom, not your classmate.

    Subway did this in the most non-invasive way possible. No pork at certain restaurants, but everything else is the same. Halal meat is still meat. A Philly cheese steak will still be made of beef. Chicken teriyaki will still be made of chicken. The meatball marinara will still taste like garbage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Let's be clear about one thing at the very least. This has everything to do about culture and race is an incidental part of it.
    I am not ignorant of that fact. However, as long you are going to generalize an entire race of people, saying ALL Muslims do this, ALL Muslims do that, ALL Muslims are selfish, ALL Muslims want to shove religion down peoples throats, ALL Muslims are responsible for the ban, then recognize this generalization for what it is, which is racism. It makes a person a bigot.

    Ranshiin wasn't criticizing the culture, but the people in it. ALL Muslims are stuck up, THEY don't learn our language. THEY, THEM, THEIR. All of these words generalize a group of people. This is bigotry, I don't bloody care how justified you think you feel, but that is what it is at the end of the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    However these changes are happening completely independently of native UK culture, at the expense of native UK culture, due to an influx of immigrants that aren't naturalizing as intended.
    Naturalizing....how? I doubt you mean "become citizens" because this wouldn't change a damn thing. How far does it need to go? That turbans are taken off? Beards are shaved? Get a suit and tie? Abandon previous culture? Become Christians? Be like you, exactly like you? Is this what you mean?

    And the expense of native UK culture? I wasn't aware that eating pork at an American-based restaurant was part of native UK culture. You know, you can still eat at Subway, you know; a few of them just won't have bacon, well bacon made out of pork. If it is a cultural offense to eat turkey meatballs, then people can either patronize another restaurant or protest. You know, that thing some Muslims did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    The only problem is if this assimilation process is undermined by immigrants self segregating into their own communities.
    Ah, you mean cultural appropriation. I guess as long as Londoners get henna tattoos, wear rasta wigs, eat shawarma, and say "kawaii" on their own, everything is just fine.

    This self-segregation doesn't happen purely on its own and don't pretend that it does. You don't think that some Muslims haven't tried assimilating into British culture? Where do you think those Muslim neighborhoods come from? It happens when Muslims move in...but the other Brits move out. Out of hate, out of fear. It happens in America and happens in Britain too. Between the name-calling, spitting, snarky-donkey "OMG a terrorist!" jokes, vandalized mosques, and anti-Muslim stabbings, this is to be expected. In a culture where most of the population is predisposed to hate them, this is a bigger barrier to integration than any culture gap.

    It is extremely difficult for integration of any sort to happen when a hello is met with a glare, when people stare at you for the way you look, when simply practicing your religion gets a guy stabbed or beaten to death or your place of worship burned or your graves destroyed.

    Yet some Brits wonder why Muslims won't become just like them....
    This is my war face.

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  9. #32
    Senior Member Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n has a reputation beyond repute Clayton_n's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    How come nobody mentioned this back when we justknew pork was offensive to Jews?
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  10. #33
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Clayton_n View Post
    How come nobody mentioned this back when we justknew pork was offensive to Jews?
    Because when Subway made kosher restaurants, nobody cared because they could eat at another Subway due to the extreme changes to the menu (versus a halal restaurant).

    Because British Jews look like other British people.
    This is my war face.

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  11. #34
    Senior Member sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    I am not ignorant of that fact. However, as long you are going to generalize an entire race of people, saying ALL Muslims do this, ALL Muslims do that, ALL Muslims are selfish, ALL Muslims want to shove religion down peoples throats, ALL Muslims are responsible for the ban, then recognize this generalization for what it is, which is racism. It makes a person a bigot.
    Islam is a religion not a race. People of any race can belong to it.

    Bigot covers a great deal, so that works (at least grammatically). It's a rather strong term in the US.

    That said, one does need to be careful in subjects like this. Once you start using words like "all" to address groups numbered in the millions your statement is almost certainly wrong and you're heading down the path to bigotry.

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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Even if it seems Subway are removing non-Halal meat from just a fraction of their outlets, it doesn't change the fact that they are simply accepting unreasonable demands on the grounds of religion to excuse a business model that was always primed to follow the most dominant market in some local area in the name of profit. In certain areas of the UK that dominant market just so conveniently happens to be of Islamic culture.

    So with that let's just cut the typical corporate BS that Subway is using here to dodge valid questions of concern and get one thing straight: This has nothing to do with balancing "animal welfare concerns with "the views of religious communities"" and everything to do with focusing resources on whichever market in a given local area returns the highest profits. In many areas of the UK, such markets mainly consist of predominantly Islamic communities, and thus Islamic culture. I should know; I live in such an area where the main road is lined with Halal food stores, from groceries to takeaways to supermarkets. If a Subway was erected there, I wouldn't at all be surprised if it too adopted the Halal meat-only principle. By the way, as a non-religious person myself, I have nothing against any existing religious culture, just so long as their way of life doesn't tangibly affect mine.

    I would take any press about Subway with a pinch of salt; but for the sake of argument, I do think it's rather pathetic that Subway would resort to playing "the views of religious communities" card, using it as some sort of weak defense for what basically boils down to ensuring maximum profits at minimal costs. This is just so typical of chain outlets: Rather than innovate some flexible middle-ground solution and impartially serve all community interests in a given local area, it seems they'd rather direct their resources to the most profitable community of all, even if that comes at the expense of choice for the other communities. In the latter, and with the anti-BS filter switched on, Subway are effectively saying: Since those communities have preferences that could easily upset our main cash cow, let's remove any offending items of such in the store that might cause it to move to greener pastures and thus upset our shareholders. Oh... but by all means, if any member of those communities orders a turkey sub instead of a bacon one, do take their money off their hands regardless. What's that, you say? Those communities might start up a boycott? I wouldn't worry about it, sir; it'll soon blow over and ultimately amount to nothing. I mean, it's not like every UK-native citizen is going to rally and unanimously stop buying our delicious subs. As for pig meat, they'll eventually give up on the idea of personally targeting us and plump elsewhere. By the way, would you like your bun toasted?

    I find it disturbing that any dominant community (or section rather) can effectively exclude other communities by demanding that a service cater to its own people before others. However, at the end of day, it's Subway (not so-called Muslim protesters) that decided to implement a profit-motivated scheme at the expense of overall consumer choice; respect for "religious views" doesn't even come into it. Which is to say, I'm more annoyed at Subway than the Muslims who allegedly made such demands... and even more annoyed at a bent system that allows such "services" to exist in the first place and treat communities on the same level as cattle. Subway is responsible, but our system is ultimately the source of the problem, not Muslims, immigrants or indeed Subway itself. We live in a country in which businesses can be so easily penalised for being lawful, innovative, impartial, ethical, ...even eco-friendly--so much so that it's far easier for them to be parasitic chumps instead. As an entity born into that system no less, Subway's business decision was probably inevitable; it was going to happen, with or without the so-alleged strong demands of Muslims. The sheer dominance of such communities in their respective local areas was incentive enough. I'm really sick and tired of services using culture, race, PC and/or religion as loan defenses for unethical business practices. I mean, by all means, be the business you want to be, Subway; but don't insult my intelligence and pretend that cultural demands and political pressures are forcing you to be the money-leeching, capitalist parasites that you really are.

    Still, fear not; for when one door closes another opens, so the saying goes. So as of today I have decided to set up a pork and bacon-only food outlet chain. It's called "Pigs R Us". Tell your friends about it and who knows? There might be a free packet of pork scratchings in it for you!
    Last edited by .:neuko:.; 05-06-2014 at 04:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Naturalizing....how? I doubt you mean "become citizens" because this wouldn't change a damn thing. How far does it need to go? That turbans are taken off? Beards are shaved? Get a suit and tie? Abandon previous culture? Become Christians? Be like you, exactly like you? Is this what you mean?
    I don't understand why you are making this fake argument up when I clearly explain what I meant in the following paragraphs.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    And the expense of native UK culture? I wasn't aware that eating pork at an American-based restaurant was part of native UK culture.
    And therein lies the problem. You don't understand UK culture, yet you believe that you understand it better than actual UK citizens. Then you tell them they're bigots for being frustrated. Culture isn't just being told what to do or what not to do. Having the freedom to choose is also a definitive part of a culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    This self-segregation doesn't happen purely on its own and don't pretend that it does. You don't think that some Muslims haven't tried assimilating into British culture? Where do you think those Muslim neighborhoods come from? It happens when Muslims move in...but the other Brits move out. Out of hate, out of fear. It happens in America and happens in Britain too. Between the name-calling, spitting, snarky-donkey "OMG a terrorist!" jokes, vandalized mosques, and anti-Muslim stabbings, this is to be expected. In a culture where most of the population is predisposed to hate them, this is a bigger barrier to integration than any culture gap.

    It is extremely difficult for integration of any sort to happen when a hello is met with a glare, when people stare at you for the way you look, when simply practicing your religion gets a guy stabbed or beaten to death or your place of worship burned or your graves destroyed.

    Yet some Brits wonder why Muslims won't become just like them....
    Consider your own words:
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    However, as long you are going to generalize an entire race of people, saying ALL Muslims do this, ALL Muslims do that, ALL Muslims are selfish, ALL Muslims want to shove religion down peoples throats, ALL Muslims are responsible for the ban, then recognize this generalization for what it is, which is racism. It makes a person a bigot.

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  16. #37
    Senior Member sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside has a reputation beyond repute sunnyside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice Lost View Post
    I actually have to go with the idea that "If you don't like eating pork, don't eat at a place that sells it. ...or simply order something else."
    Quote Originally Posted by .:neuko:. View Post
    Rather than innovate some flexible middle-ground solution and impartially serve all community interests in a given local area, it seems they'd rather direct their resources to the most profitable community of all, even if that comes at the expense of choice for the other communities.
    There's always a limit to the menu that a single restaurant can offer.

    But beyond that it occurs to me that I've never heard of a "half Kosher" or "half Halal" restaurant. I'm not sure if that's possible with strict observers. It sounds like it's hard enough to avoid a lawsuit with those based on the link I posted above about McDonald's troubles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    The problem is the nature of the cultural change. It would be one thing if there was some UK counter culture that decided that pigs make cool pets, and thus eating pork no longer sat well with them. However these changes are happening completely independently of native UK culture, at the expense of native UK culture, due to an influx of immigrants that aren't naturalizing as intended.
    While I'll agree it's different, I'm not sure that an influx of external culture is neccessarily worse than internal changes.

    Actually, we might be able to better discuss the issue without the "racist" baggage if we were to consider the situation in my area.

    Vegans.

    Unlike Halal/kosher, vegan food is pretty universally horrid unless it's something like apple juice. Besides replacing places selling good food at affordable prices with their more expensive and nutritionally deficient monstrosities of fake meat science they've been pretty agressive if not violent in their protests of a nearby fur store. Perhaps similar treatment awaits restaurants in the future?
    Last edited by sunnyside; 05-07-2014 at 04:22 PM.

  17. #38
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnyside View Post
    While I'll agree it's different, I'm not sure that an influx of external culture is neccessarily worse than internal changes.

    Actually, we might be able to better discuss the issue without the "racist" baggage if we were to consider the situation in my area.

    Vegans.

    Unlike Halal/kosher, vegan food is pretty universally horrid unless it's something like apple juice. Besides replacing places selling good food at affordable prices with their more expensive and nutritionally deficient monstrosities of fake meat science they've been pretty agressive if not violent in their protests of a nearby fur store. Perhaps similar treatment awaits restaurants in the future?
    The thing is, vegans and anti-vegans still have a very similar cultural background, so their going to have similar language, societal expectations, fashion, etc. It's not as though you're going to find all the meat eaters south of the tracks 30 years from now.

    But that being said, I'm not going to call anyone a bigot if they get upset at vegans turning their home into a village hidden in the tofu. It is an understandable frustration.

  18. #39
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    I don't understand why you are making this fake argument up when I clearly explain what I meant in the following paragraphs.
    I understood; 'tis called hyperbole. My point was how much does a person need to change in order to become "naturalized" into a culture. You only mentioned how a native culture assimilates part of a new culture while remaining dominant; this is called cultural appropriation. I'm talking about the opposite end, wherein a new culture changes due to the native culture.

    My question to you was how much of this change needs to happen before a person is "naturalized as intended". You said that they aren't naturalizing as intended. I already told you why. But how? How is this supposed to work before everyone is satisfied?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    And therein lies the problem. You don't understand UK culture, yet you believe that you understand it better than actual UK citizens. Then you tell them they're bigots for being frustrated.
    *Sigh* If you are frustrated because of cultural changes, fine. But for the billionth time, that is not why I was calling Ranshiin a bigot. THIS is why:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranshiin View Post
    And FWIW all the Muslims around here are stuck-up, ignorant little bastards. You never see them try to get involved in anything. They don't try to do what everyone else does - I see them wandering around the wrong way in Aldi and they never end up buying anything there anyway. They don't even bother to learn our language half the time; I've had to speak with a lot of them and some of them wouldn't even try to speak English to me.

    They're all quite happy to stuff their laws and religion down our throats but won't accept ours; this whole bacongate scandal just proves it. "We want your bacon banned because we don't like it. What's that, you don't agree? RACISTS!"
    Again, I don't really care how frustrated you are or why. I don't give a damn. Generalized statements such as this are never justified. Not all Muslims act this way, yet you wouldn't know this if you read this nor is there any indication that he was only talking a handful of people he once met. THAT'S why I called him a bigot. And that frustration is misplaced anyway because the changes happened because of Subway. Again, some Muslims only asked for a change and them asking for something is not different from anybody else. Be frustrated if you want to, but that is not justification for being ignorant. Am I supposed to brush off his words or take them with an extra grain of salt because he is "frustrated"?

    I won't pretend to be an expert on UK culture (although, you have no way of knowing how much exposure I have had to it; all you know is that I live in in Virginia, but I digress). However, your choice of words isn't exactly helping the situation. You said that "these changes" are happening at the expense of "native UK culture". I know enough English to know that "these changes" can only refer to "changes in Subway's" menu because that is all we are talking about and I don't have to be an expert to know that eating bacon at Subway is not what one would categorize as "native UK culture".

    So which part of "native UK culture" is being sacrificed here? You can still eat at Subway if you want. If your local Subway doesn't have bacon, you can order another sandwich or go to another Subway. Or go another restaurant that has bacon. Or bring your own bacon for your Subway sandwich. Or make your own sandwich with bacon.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Culture isn't just being told what to do or what not to do. Having the freedom to choose is also a definitive part of a culture.
    You know who else has a choice? Subway. As a private company, they can cater to whomever they want for whatever reason. It is their choice. One that is undoubtedly more about money than about religious understanding, but a choice nonetheless. And you can choose to eat there or not. And you can choose to either do something about it or choose to do nothing and this becomes just like the halal Domino's and the halal KFC that some Londoners whined about but ultimately did nothing to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Consider your own words:
    Why? If you mean to say that I am being potentially hypocritical by saying that using sweeping generalization is wrong while also saying that most British people are predisposed to hate Muslims, then you would have a point.

    Except, my words didn't pop out from the ether. What? You thought I was making stuff up to make a point? What about my words did you want me to consider?

    As I said, the biggest barrier to integration is how the native culture treats the new one. Hell, the fact that you even have to use that vocabulary for 4.8% of your consistently growing population (a group that has been growing since the late 1800s and not all of which are immigrants) is a sign of division.
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    I didn't say "a handful" of them, I said "all" of them. All of the Muslim community in this town are rude and arrogant. Not "a handful" of them.

    If you're going to accuse me of being a bigot when for one you're not even a citizen of my country, at least quote me properly, okay? And notice how I haven't posted anything in this thread for two days. I've said what I wanted to say about the matter. I'm upset how immigrants have manipulated my own home country to suit their tastes and their requirements without any attempt to consider the fact that it's not their country.

    I don't care if you think I'm a bigot. If I'm a bigot, then everyone that I know at college and in my parents' village are bigots too then because they feel exactly the same way as I do.


    Oh, and FWIW. Yesterday, I finally went into town. I went past Subway, because it's en-route to the supermarket. It was dead. Completely dead.

    Thanks, bigotry.
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranshiin View Post
    I didn't say "a handful" of them, I said "all" of them. All of the Muslim community in this town are rude and arrogant. Not "a handful" of them.
    I did quote you properly. I even highlighted it. I said that there was no indication that you were only talking about a handful of Muslims, that you were indeed talking about all of them, which is why I highlighted it multiple times. If you are going to accuse me of not quoting you properly, you should at least read my posts, okay?

    I don't have to be British to know what a bigot is.

     
    And I will thank you to not mention my citizenship or my background as if you know everything about me. You do not. You know my hometown, nothing more.


    You have not met every Muslim person in your community, not every single Muslim man, woman and child, so your evidence is purely anecdotal and fallacious because of that. "Since the Muslims I have met act this way, they ALL act this way." This mindset on its own is bigoted. Not every single Muslim protested, not every single Muslim caused changes in your community, so not every single Muslim is to blame. If you want to rope them all together out of frustration, fine, but don't pretend that I need to be British to know what this is. I don't have to be British to know that when you associate the actions of a few people to THE ENTIRE GROUP, this is a fallacy.

    You can be frustrated, if you want. You can get mad if you want. If the idea of not getting your favorite salty meat at Subway infuriates you, fine. But you cannot blame an ENTIRE GROUP for a decision that Subway ultimately made on their own. If they did it for money, get mad at capitalism because this how it works every bloody day. If they did it because they were afraid of what Muslims might do to them, get mad at the fact that they are racist cowards. You blaming all Muslims is pure idiocy. Its fallacious. Bigoted.

    And what? Are you blaming them for the empty Subway too? It couldn't be empty for any other reason?
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnyside View Post
    But beyond that it occurs to me that I've never heard of a "half Kosher" or "half Halal" restaurant. I'm not sure if that's possible with strict observers. It sounds like it's hard enough to avoid a lawsuit with those based on the link I posted above about McDonald's troubles.
    I should have maybe clarified what I meant by "middle-ground"; but the idea I had in mind, was a Subway in which the customer could choose between halal or non-halal meat. In the former, meat would have been prior prepared under halal principles (including the proper slaughtering of animals under Islamic religion). In the latter, meat would have been prior prepared under EU industry standards (by which animals would be "pre-stunned" before being slaughtered). No individual should be deprived of choice (or convenience) here, and Muslims would still be able to freely practice their religion.

    But if it's Muslims (or a minority thereof) simply demanding non-halal meat be entirely removed from their local Subway, I'd say they're being unreasonable and should maybe consider competing with Subway instead of demanding the service be modified at the expense of other equally-entitled local communities.

    I'm not a business person of course, and the idea I suggested might be expensive to put into practice. But I can't help thinking that Subway is trying to have its cake sub and eat it here. After all, if it can afford to expand its global business territory year on year, then why can it not invest just an ounce of respect for all local communities, not just the one that pleases its shareholders?
    Last edited by .:neuko:.; 05-09-2014 at 04:05 AM.

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  24. #43
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yep, this just happened ...

    Quote Originally Posted by .:neuko:. View Post
    In the latter, meat would have been prior prepared under EU industry standards (by which animals would be "pre-stunned" before being slaughtered). No individual should be deprived of choice (or convenience) here, and Muslims would still be able to freely practice their religion.
    It should be known that halal meat sold at Subway complies with EU industry standards. The animals have been pre-stunned. Although the EU allows the exception for religion, Subway does not make this exception when comes to their meat.

    As a matter of fact, most UK business chains that have gone halal comply with EU and UK standards. Aside from a blessing, at most restaurants, there is legally nothing different from halal meat and regular slaughtered meat.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 05-08-2014 at 10:14 PM.
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