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Thread: Discarding Our Morality

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    Junior Member Obey Kenshiro is on a distinguished road Obey Kenshiro's Avatar
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    Default Discarding Our Morality

    Do we, fellow humans, have moralities that must be discarded, in order for us to progress?

    Is it wrong to clone humans, and harvest them for organs for sick people? We do the same to cows, grow them, breed them, slaughter them for our needs with no regard for their life. Hmmm...

    Is it our Morality or is it Religion that is slowing down sciences?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    It's not morality that's in the way of progress.

    It's political correctness that keeps us down.

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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    It depends on what you define is moral, immoral, and amoral.
    Good ol' Dogs never Die, they just keepin on livin' till their time comes.


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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathBlade/13.666 View Post
    It depends on what you define is moral, immoral, and amoral.
    Would "never lying" be a usesless moral?

    ---------- Post added at 12:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumagawa View Post
    It's not morality that's in the way of progress.

    It's political correctness that keeps us down.
    During the Dark Ages the church banned any form of dissections which resulted in the loss of alot knowledge of the anatomy which the romans had aquired (like galens books). The Islamic Empire also had banned the dissections of human bodies. Religion is based on prohibition. Prohibitions prevent any activity. Christianity puts restrictions on important scientific methods of action and interaction. Christian hindered the natural sciences.

    I do not believe Political Corectness is hindering science. But Political Corecntess is a whole other discussion in its self.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Obviously, there is scientific prestige in things like cloning humans for parts, etc. But it is our regard towards the human race that makes us change our ideas. Without a doubt, clones are as conscious as their clon-ees. I certainly wouldn't want my organs to be harvested, even if I was a clone. I think human consciousness is the ultimatum. We don't mind killing cows for our pleasure but if anything resembles a human, even monkeys, we are a little intimidated to do so.

    And I firmly believe it is Religion, rather than Human Morality, that is slowing down scientific progress. A perfect example is the controversy over stem cells. I don't personally believe that babies are conscious until they've been born. Religious fanatics insist that life blooms during conception, but isn't consciousness the dominant factor in determining whether something is alive? Otherwise they're just like plants, and we kill plants greedily without a second thought, although I believe plants are at least semi-conscious, and that uprooting them results in some form of pain.

    I personally believe that the coolest way to express non-threatening scientific prosperity is to use ALL aborted fetuses for stem-cell research. Wouldn't that be progressive?
    -j
    Last edited by Space Cowboy 2112; 12-21-2013 at 07:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Obey Kenshiro View Post
    Would "never lying" be a usesless moral?
    If you are a follower of Emmanuel Kant, then no. But of you believe Kant's "killer" scenario is utter crap, then yes.
    Good ol' Dogs never Die, they just keepin on livin' till their time comes.


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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    I don't have much to say for human cloning, other than I believe using those clones solely for harvesting their organs or what have you, would be... kinda pointless. Like CaptainBBQ said, if the said clone is as sentient as the person from whom it was cloned from, then how is it any different from taking the organs out of an actual person? You're spending way too much time creating a new human being, when you could just as simply be taking those perfectly good organs from a willing organ donor.

    On the other hand, stem cells are a very practical approach in helping to regenerate injured organs. It's the most practical way, IMO. And in that field, I'd say it is indeed religion hindering advancement in that field, at least, moreso than human morality. I mean, you've got this fetus that is not sentient, not conscious, and has yet to even develop much of its nervous system, therefore it can't even feel pain. Even so, you've got religious people condemning you for handing it over to science. Come on guys. If it's already aborted, it's not going live, so why waste a valuable scientific specimen just because they want to call it "unethical"? Letting your fellow humans suffer from cancer and organ damage because you decided to hinder scientific advancement in favor of relying on your deity to magically heal the sick is what's unethical.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Obey Kenshiro View Post
    During the Dark Ages the church banned any form of dissections which resulted in the loss of alot knowledge of the anatomy which the romans had aquired (like galens books). The Islamic Empire also had banned the dissections of human bodies. Religion is based on prohibition. Prohibitions prevent any activity. Christianity puts restrictions on important scientific methods of action and interaction. Christian hindered the natural sciences.

    I do not believe Political Corectness is hindering science. But Political Corecntess is a whole other discussion in its self.
    As I said, it's not morality that's in the way of progress.
    But religion isn't the only thing to blame. Things like marxism, socialism and, yes, even the leftist idea of "political correctness" is hindering progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainBBQ View Post
    I personally believe that the coolest way to express non-threatening scientific prosperity is to use ALL aborted fetuses for stem-cell research. Wouldn't that be progressive?
    You can't just steal the fetus from the parents.

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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumagawa View Post
    You can't just steal the fetus from the parents.
    You have a problem with taking a fetus away from someone who wants to kill it?

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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Obey Kenshiro View Post
    Would "never lying" be a usesless moral?
    Yes.
    Kaleohano derailing threads everywhere he go
    Sit back some time and simply ask yourself, [Link]->"Do you even lift, bro?"<-[Link]

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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    You have a problem with taking a fetus away from someone who wants to kill it?
    Yes? Most of the time people don't get an abortion because they think something like "lol i dont feel like havin a baby now lets just kill it".
    Anyway the state has no say in this. If you have the right to "kill" your child then surely you get to decide what happens to it afterwards.

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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumagawa View Post
    Yes? Most of the time people don't get an abortion because they think something like "lol i dont feel like havin a baby now lets just kill it".
    Anyway the state has no say in this. If you have the right to "kill" your child then surely you get to decide what happens to it afterwards.
    All I mean to say is that it would be progressive to utilize aborted fetuses to stem cell research; after all its not like the parents can do anything else with the fetus. You can't dress it up and play tea party with it or anything. It is much more respectful to utilize the fetus towards SCR than to cast it away in the trash can anyways, ya'know

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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Overall no, we should not completely let go our morality.

    However if it means I become immortal and gain odlike powers I'd slaughter the lot of you and skip merrily through your entrails.
    Anime is a lot like sex. Done right it's a beautiful act of creation that brings a little more light into the world. If it's sick and wrong... it's even better.


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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumagawa View Post
    Yes? Most of the time people don't get an abortion because they think something like "lol i dont feel like havin a baby now lets just kill it".
    Frankly speaking, their reason could just as well be that they lost a bet, because there doesn't need to be an actual reason. It's possible that someone has an abortion despite wanting the baby for some medical reason; however, it's much more common that someone has an abortion because they don't want to have a baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumagawa View Post
    Anyway the state has no say in this. If you have the right to "kill" your child then surely you get to decide what happens to it afterwards.
    I'm not sure why you think killing implies corpse ownership. You have a right to kill someone in self defense, but it doesn't mean you get to decide what happens to them afterwards. I suppose if you think about it like game hunting, where you kill a deer and get to mount the head, then it makes sense. The problem with that interpretation is that abortion is typically advertised as "her body, her choice" rather than "her kill, her head mount".

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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Obey Kenshiro View Post
    Do we, fellow humans, have moralities that must be discarded, in order for us to progress?
    Progress in what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obey Kenshiro View Post
    Is it wrong to clone humans, and harvest them for organs for sick people? We do the same to cows, grow them, breed them, slaughter them for our needs with no regard for their life.
    I don't even think we need to make a thinking, whole person for just an organ. Also, equivocating the life of a cow to the life of a person is asinine.

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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumagawa View Post
    As I said, it's not morality that's in the way of progress.
    But religion isn't the only thing to blame. Things like marxism, socialism and, yes, even the leftist idea of "political correctness" is hindering progress.
    Let's see what Marxists say

    http://media.sas.upenn.edu/Humanities/harvey.mov

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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    No, a line not to cross must be set, and crossing it should come at one's own peril. Every action you take has (re)actions and ripple effects that go beyond your narrow range of understanding. As a conscious being, you have the ability and the right to acknowledge the good, the bad and the grey zone. You cross the line once, "for science", take note of the consequences; you clone/slaughter/sodomize/whatev. on a mass-production scale, then you've crossed the line for far too long.
    I know why some of you wish to renounce morality. Hubris. You don't like someone telling you where you need to stop, and impeding your further knowledge. But those of you who want to do so "4 science" are no better than the ones who do it just for fun. You're being subtly pushed into this and you stubbornly refuse to rethink your methods. Stem Cell research? Pffft! Why so much waste on it when you can rethink: non-invasive surgery, electromagnetic wave virus and tumor cleansing, spontaneous regeneration; THAT's thinking ahead. SCs are just a bait thrown to the public, so they'd feed on it to keep them busy, while supreme medicine is practiced in secret. The sudden drop in your views on morality is just a side-effect of the current events, and you are so weak to fall for it.


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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by DOOM! View Post
    No, a line not to cross must be set, and crossing it should come at one's own peril. Every action you take has (re)actions and ripple effects that go beyond your narrow range of understanding. As a conscious being, you have the ability and the right to acknowledge the good, the bad and the grey zone. You cross the line once, "for science", take note of the consequences; you clone/slaughter/sodomize/whatev. on a mass-production scale, then you've crossed the line for far too long.
    I know why some of you wish to renounce morality. Hubris. You don't like someone telling you where you need to stop, and impeding your further knowledge. But those of you who want to do so "4 science" are no better than the ones who do it just for fun. You're being subtly pushed into this and you stubbornly refuse to rethink your methods. Stem Cell research? Pffft! Why so much waste on it when you can rethink: non-invasive surgery, electromagnetic wave virus and tumor cleansing, spontaneous regeneration; THAT's thinking ahead. SCs are just a bait thrown to the public, so they'd feed on it to keep them busy, while supreme medicine is practiced in secret. The sudden drop in your views on morality is just a side-effect of the current events, and you are so weak to fall for it.
    But who's to say where that line is to be crossed. And there is no evidence that every action has a reaction. Nor that it should. Going off cows, we kill them every day without any reaction from most people. It's simply there and we just accept it with little thoughts. Now you could argue a reaction is we get fed but that's has no bearing to the discussion since again eating just is. We do it and accept it without any thought. No ripple to be found with utter acceptance. As for good, bad and grey, who's to determine what falls into those categories. Religion, government, you or me. We all stake claims but no claim has perch. Even then what one calls evil the mass can accept without though. Things constantly fall in line without much thought. Morality is a tool used to force others opinions on others in the claim that they know right from wrong. No one holds the power to dictate what is and isn't acceptable. The term is used to control others. It takes away or freedom to make choices. The power to stand up and say I choose this or I do not choose this. Just like one scientist can choose to focus on stem cell research while another can choose to say he doesn't agree with that line of research and chooses to focus on non-invasive surgery. Choice is what has been guiding us since we first set foot on this planet. If people hadn't broken free from the notion of morality then we would not have many of the things we have today. Morality can only lead to destruction. On needs to stand and choose for themselves and not follow what others tell them. If we can't do this we wont last.

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    Senior Member Chris is infamous around these parts Chris is infamous around these parts Chris is infamous around these parts Chris is infamous around these parts Chris is infamous around these parts Chris is infamous around these parts Chris is infamous around these parts Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discarding Our Morality

    Important discussion. Actually, you are all right. As DeathBlade pointed out we have to start with definitions. And that's what this post is about.

    The human brain is a result of millions of years of evolution. It has some complex neural structures which motivate us to behave in certain ways.

    The nine human (and chimpanzee) instincts
    1. Social belonging
    2. Hierarchy and status
    3. Emotions before reason
    4. First impressions to classify
    5. Loss aversion
    6. Gossip
    7. Empathy and mind reading
    8. Confidence before realism (optimism)
    9. Contest and display
    (Hardwired Humans by Andrew O’Keeffe)

    “Evolution has endowed us not with rigid instincts but with tendencies, drives, and alternative strategies that are facilitated, inhibited, selected, or redirected in accordance with our experiences in our social environments.” (Peter O. Gray – Psychology). Morality is a set of such drives. It can run counter to the inbuilt drives. For example, in Christianity envy is a sin – if you are poor, you shouldn't envy a wealthy man and to resist this temptation you have to pray and be humble.

    It's clear to me that morality must serve people. Morality for people, not people for morality. Morality must favour the development and maintenance of the social system where the majority of people are happy. Happiness is impossible without the satisfaction of strongest instincts such as 1 and 2 from the list above. Morality has to be based on the achievements of modern psychology, not religious dogmas.

    In its time, Christianity was a progressive force which helped to politically unify Europe and to alleviate the pain of people who faced extremely hard living conditions, labour and inequality by utilizing hypnosis and self-hypnosis (prayer). But it can’t do it today and it shouldn’t. A believer who doesn’t maintain this hypnosis, let’s say, for half a year is bound to become an atheist. It’s natural because the faith is not based upon logic. For example, creationism answers the question of the origin of humans but not the question of the origin of God. God is supposed to be an infinitely complex form of energy (by energy I mean the movement of thought), while in materialism consciousness is the quality of matter evolved from the simple to the complex (see The Secret Life of Chaos BBC Science). Thus the God hypothesis is absolutely improbable and redundant. Today religion-based morality inevitably leads to contradictions and gives leverage to manipulate people. For example, Christian concept of free will allows ruling classes shift the responsibility for failures onto people.

    Revolution begins in the minds of the people. We have the internet, they have the media. I am responsible for the implantation of these ideas – that's a motto of this morality.
    Last edited by Chris; 12-27-2013 at 05:10 PM.

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