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Thread: Okay so I've been wondering

  1. #1
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    Default Okay so I've been wondering

    Well actually had an argument but would you say that we needed nature since science has come so far these days? If science can clone sheep, create a bio-engineered cell and create GM crops then surely science can enhance nature for us and make it far more efficient to what we need it to be.

    Sure there are ethical issues around us but what choice do we have since most of mankind is unwilling to give up modern day luxuries? We can plonk a wind farm down everywhere and use just electric cars as we still need the power to come from some sort of source.

    Personally I think it's time that nature was adapted to our needs if we want to continue on this planet. But that's just my opinion what is everyone else's?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Absolutely not, and genetically modified crops and manufactured food and things like that are one of the biggest problems with health now-a-days. What do you mean by enhance nature for us and make it far more efficient to what we need it to be? To be efficient nature needs left alone. We are really screwing with nature, to the point where its almost doomed. It is Earth Day coming up this Monday after all, lets keep nature natural. And windfarms arent as ethical as they seem. They might be an improvement in certain criteria, but speaking as someone that deals with powerplants, there is a lot of issues with windpower.
    ~ Tristan


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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Well, it depends what you mean by 'enhance'. Although wind power is very clean, it is extremely inefficient. If you covered an entire country with wind farms it still wouldn't be enough energy to power whole cities such as London, New York City, etc. with all the smaller towns added in as well. As for electric cars, they aren't very efficient either. Not only are they extremely expensive, but they also are inefficient in the sense that there aren't very many places to charge them since their numbers are limited. Especially if you were driving a long distance and your battery ran out.

    But yeah, I agree with T-Stew. We've already screwed up entire ecosystems and have played with nature far too much already. The idea to bend nature to meet our 'needs' is a bit much if you ask me. It isn't even needs. It's simply wants. All the conviences we have today are merely luxuries. We don't need them to survive. All we need to survive is food, water, and shelter, and maybe since humans are social beings, companionship. Which nature can provide all by itself without the 'help' of humans.

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    I think nature is still more sophisticated than our technology, and by a large margin! I wouldn't say cloning is a good example of bypassing nature since it really amounts to manipulating natural processes. We haven't assembled sheep from scratch yet. Oh yeah, artificial intelligence is still as dumb as a bag of hammers.

    In my opinion, while we have progressed substantially in the past century, we're really not all that advanced. We can't even efficiently solve some fundamental problems like protein folding (but natural processes can do this quite fast!).
    Last edited by nslay; 04-20-2013 at 10:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Sorry guys if what I posted sounded really stupid was just feeling really upset over stuff and well just wanted to rant about something and that just so happened to be the topic that came up.

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Quote Originally Posted by aether View Post
    Sorry guys if what I posted sounded really stupid was just feeling really upset over stuff and well just wanted to rant about something and that just so happened to be the topic that came up.
    I don't think your post sounded stupid. There's no reason to apologize.

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    There's a difference between nature being ecologically efficient and being efficient for the human race. We cannot just simply "leave nature alone" as we consume great amounts of it on a daily basis. Any effort to curb this consumption (albeit temporarily) is welcomed by me. I don't see why science gets the flak it does.

    Saying we "don't need the luxuries", or that we should just "leave it alone" are realistic views is ideal thinking, at best. Say it all you want, but there is no way that billions of people will revert to a time when we weren't AS dependent on nature as we are now... To be honest, we cannot ever leave nature alone, our survival literally (yes, literally) depends upon it (as does the survival of EVERYTHING on Earth). Instead of trying to disconnect from nature, we should try to better fit into to the global ecosystem by trying to subvert our bad habits to more efficient, less damaging ones (seeing as trying to get people to stop is likely to fail).


    When faced with an existence so great, one becomes blind to everything and experiences only fear...

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusuke View Post
    There's a difference between nature being ecologically efficient and being efficient for the human race. We cannot just simply "leave nature alone" as we consume great amounts of it on a daily basis. Any effort to curb this consumption (albeit temporarily) is welcomed by me. I don't see why science gets the flak it does.

    Saying we "don't need the luxuries", or that we should just "leave it alone" are realistic views is ideal thinking, at best. Say it all you want, but there is no way that billions of people will revert to a time when we weren't AS dependent on nature as we are now... To be honest, we cannot ever leave nature alone, our survival literally (yes, literally) depends upon it (as does the survival of EVERYTHING on Earth). Instead of trying to disconnect from nature, we should try to better fit into to the global ecosystem by trying to subvert our bad habits to more efficient, less damaging ones (seeing as trying to get people to stop is likely to fail).
    Ahh the voice of reason. I suppose I took an unrealistic hard-line on the subject earlier didn't I? But my thoughts are much more in-line with yours. Yes its impossible to leave it entirely alone, at least without vacating the planet. Just the very act of living, even without technology, impacts nature. The key is to find a balance. I just think currently we are far from being balanced and very unsustainable. We may be able to become more sustainable, but imho I don't think we will ever be sustainable. Perhaps things were more sustainable before technology, but things eventually turned. I think the stem of the issue is the huge population though. But since human life is the most important, well not much you can do about overpopulation. I like to live old-fasioned personally, plan on having my own homestead where I can mostly live off the land and perhaps even completely off-grid. Right now I am half way there. But still I rely on modern resources, and I couldnt get by without the internet. I have some Amish friends who can though. But most people don't want to live this way, and well probably couldn't if they tried.

    I grew up just outside of the Adirondack State Park, and pretty much all our vacations were to the mountains. We hardly ever went to amusement parks and things like that. Its nice that there is nature out there protected, the Adirondack Park is about 6 million acres with like 2.5 million federally protected 'forever wild'. There needs to be more protected land like this around, not less. Even if it was for the greater good, it would kill me to see wind farms going up in the mountains, dams in the rivers and lakes, forests logged, and wild meadows turned into crops.
    Last edited by T-Stew; 04-21-2013 at 02:41 PM.
    ~ Tristan


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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Quote Originally Posted by nslay View Post
    I don't think your post sounded stupid. There's no reason to apologize.
    Guess I'm just cracking up from the stress of Uni work and home life

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Agent Smith has an interesting take on this very topic.


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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Nuke N. Korea. Thats my opinion.
    make sense?

    ---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nslay View Post
    dumb as a bag of hammers.
    you'd be surprised what a bag of hammers can do.
    Kaleohano derailing threads everywhere he go
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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Quote Originally Posted by aether View Post
    If science can clone sheep, create a bio-engineered cell and create GM crops then surely science can enhance nature for us and make it far more efficient to what we need it to be.
    You can't really do more than what we are doing now. Genetically modified organisms are pretty much all we can do. We can live everywhere, it is just really expensive to live in such places. You can absolutely live in Antarctica, in an entirely glass house, with all the modern luxuries, if you're Bill Gates.

     




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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleohano View Post
    you'd be surprised what a bag of hammers can do.
    Agreed. I know exactly what it can do. It amounts to a bunch of statistical magic and trickery ... and it works well for many problems. But we're still way better (though slower!)

    Maybe when we can build self-sustaining starships and teraform hostile and lifeless planets to suit us, maybe then we can say that we've parted ways with nature. We're aiming for interstellar travel sometime in the next century ... that's far from living on self-sustaining starships and teraforming planets.

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    I think nature will still act as a great barrier between greedy multinational corporations and the true will of the people. Makes it harder to hog all the food.

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Quote Originally Posted by nslay View Post
    Maybe when we can build self-sustaining starships and teraform hostile and lifeless planets to suit us, maybe then we can say that we've parted ways with nature. We're aiming for interstellar travel sometime in the next century ... that's far from living on self-sustaining starships and teraforming planets.
    Too complicated. We should instead just start wars with small countries.
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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    I'm not really sure what you were getting at in your response to me, as you didnt write anything. If you are trying to debate GMO's being unhealthy then you need to do a little more research, which you seem to have a lot of time to do so I'll leave it to you. I dont have much time, only get on here once or twice a week or even just every few weeks. I expect nothing less than what those reports find. Do you really think they would be the mainstay of most all the food big ag produces if they didnt do studies that showed them to be 'ok' at least? Just dont forget about all the other things out there that all those studies let by that have been later found to be toxic or harmful in some way or another, or all the things that are banned in certain areas but the rest of the world deems safe. Regardless though, simply look at the nutrition, compare all the carb levels and nutrients of modern big ag gmos like corn and wheat to their original form. Most are far more unhealthy. GMO main goal is to make more produce and cheaper, helping the bottom line of big ag. They make stuff more disease resistant, higher yield, longer shelf life, etc. Nutrition is like last on the list, if even a concern of most of them. Sure my natural garden might loose a quarter to fifty percent from disease or pests, but I'm fine with that and plan for it. But when profit is on the line - the only thing big as cares about - thats completely unacceptable. The USDA, FDA, etc have proved time and time again they are biased towards the needs of big ag and chemical companies more so than the health of people. And thats just GMO. I was also referring to hybrids, and pretty much any processed & manufactured foods. Most are to make companies lots of money, not to keep you healthy. Now excuse me while I spend the rest of my weekend outdoors in nature planting my garden full of healthy non gmo, non hybrid veggies....
     

    Last years garden:


    And the greenhouse I built:


    Disclaimer: I am not 100% non-gmo, hybrid, or organic, but mostly. And strive to be as much as possible.

    ~ Tristan


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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    I think we should all become christians and pray to jesus to decide for us.

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    way is my school so stupid they don't even know how to talk properly but yet they are really smart and act stupid

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    More recycle, less waste. Not saying GM are not good, but then again, we should curb our own selfish desires first, which is quite difficult, what with the many inventions but little money to invest on them, unless you're a millionaire or billionaire, in which case, I'm not. But I think throughout history, nature has adapted more efficiently than humans do.

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    The person that you are now is not the person that I used to know. You're becoming a stranger that I've never met before. Not liking the change though.

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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Quote Originally Posted by The Angelic Anathema View Post
    Yes, clearly, it is I that need "do a little more research."
    Correct, as the stuff you continue to link proves almost nothing. I defer pretty much to everything I said in the last post *sigh*. Dont get me wrong I am not trying to say that 100% of the time GMO is worse, just in how the mainstay of GMO in our current food supply are. Again, compare the nutrition of our current GMO veggies and fruits to their original versions, including all the macro and micro nutrients. Unfortunately there are many phytonutrients and other things that arent typically measured. Theoretically, GMO could produce more nutritious crops, but thats not how its being utilized for the most part.

    If it was you who neg repped me, although I only read about half of your links (sorry I just dont have hours upon hours to waste) there was nothing new or unexpected I read. This isnt the first time I've researched or debated the issue.
    Last edited by T-Stew; 05-08-2013 at 06:23 PM.
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    Senior Member Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis has a reputation beyond repute Anoleis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Okay so I've been wondering

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Stew View Post
    Correct, as the stuff you continue to link proves almost nothing. I defer pretty much to everything I said in the last post *sigh*. Dont get me wrong I am not trying to say that 100% of the time GMO is worse, just in how the mainstay of GMO in our current food supply are. Again, compare the nutrition of our current GMO veggies and fruits to their original versions, including all the macro and micro nutrients. Unfortunately there are many phytonutrients and other things that arent typically measured. Theoretically, GMO could produce more nutritious crops, but thats not how its being utilized for the most part.

    If it was you who neg repped me, although I only read about half of your links (sorry I just dont have hours upon hours to waste) there was nothing new or unexpected I read. This isnt the first time I've researched or debated the issue.
    You haven't debated anything. All you have done is harp on how GMOs are not as good as non-GMOs without providing any evidence. If you have debated this before, then stop pussyfooting around and debate or shut-up. Saying that I've not done my research, while ignoring my evidence/research, is both pretentious and not how debating works. GMO are a huge step in helping impoverished countries. They've used it to introduce vitimin A to rice in China. You keep saying that I just need to compare the nutrition levels of GMO vs non-GMO; I counter with the fact that nutrition levels vary between species of non-GMOs, and advocating one over the other by a single attribute is asinine. Apples. Let us not forget the many species of apples. If anyone here has baked with apples, they know that certain apples are better for certain tasks. GMOs simply allow for us to choose which task we want our food to fulfill.

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