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Thread: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

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    Default Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Oh no, here I go correcting things again. Now that I'm back, I'm going to end up completely taking over this section of the forums, aren't I? Oh well.

    http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/utena/rguswkst.htm

    薔薇の刻印に より選ばれし我ら
    世界の果ての 手紙に従い集う我ら
    チャンスを与えられた デュエリスト
    決闘に勝ち 手に入れるのだ
    薔薇の花嫁

    Current translation:

    We were chosen instead of the rose's carved seal
    We assemble and comply with the letter of the end of the world
    Duellist has given us a chance
    She will obtain the victory of the duel Rose Bride

    My translation:

    We who have been chosen by the Rose Seal
    We who gather in accordance with the letters from End of the World
    Each of us duelists, given a chance
    The victor will obtain her:
    The Rose Bride

    Why it's wrong:

    In the first line, since it's により and not just より, the meaning is clearly "by/with/according to" and not "instead of". In the third line, チャンスを与えられた is modifying デュエリスト (and in the context of the show, "duelist" is not a single person, but a term used for all the characters who, uh, fight in the duels). In the last two lines, the fact that it's 決闘勝ち 手に入れる and not 決闘勝ち(を)手に入れる suggests that, rather than the victory of the duel being obtained, victory in the duel leads to obtaining something else, i.e. the Rose Bride.

    さあ 私とエンゲージして
    参りましょう 天空の幻の城
    世界を革命する力 私とともにいる人のもの

    Current translation:

    Come now, engage me
    Let's go, ethereous illusionary castles
    The power to revolutionize the world is with the people who live with me

    My translation:

    Yes, become engaged to me and we'll go
    To the illusory castle in the sky
    The power to revolutionize the world belongs to the one who is with me

    Why it's wrong:

    "Engage [someone]" can't really be used in the sense of "make [someone] your fiancée" in any form of English that I know of. Unfortunately there's no really good active verb to use here (again, that I know of), hence "become engaged to me". In the second line, it makes sense to me to assume that the first and second parts of the line are related and they are thus going to the illusory castle in the sky (of which there is only one). The third line is not technically wrong grammatically speaking, but in the context of the show, power belongs to the one person who currently "owns" the Rose Bride, not to multiple people at one time.

    Full re-translation:

    If it does not break the egg's shell, the chick will die without being born
    We are the chick; the world is the egg
    If we do not break the world's shell, we will die without being born
    Destroy the world's shell!

    To revolutionize the world! To revolutionize the world!

    We who have been chosen by the Rose Seal
    We who gather in accordance with the letters from End of the World
    Each of us duelists, given a chance
    The victor of the duel will obtain her:
    The Rose Bride

    Yes, become engaged to me and we'll go
    To the illusory castle in the sky
    The power to revolutionize the world belongs to the one who is with me

    Now, I spend each day
    Entirely devoted to Saionji-sama
    That is the law of the Rose Seal, the fate of the Rose Bride

    We who have been chosen by the Rose Seal
    We who gather in accordance with the letters from End of the World
    Each of us duelists, given a chance
    The victor of the duel will obtain her:
    The Rose Bride

    To revolutionize the world! To revolutionize the world!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    @Asufa please respond...

    ...so that you know where you can find me

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Oh, sorry, I didn't notice the translation was done by someone who was still around! I should've contacted them first.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Sorry, but I sent a response. I can't see it. I sent you a message talking about.

    The translation is much better than mine, I just don't agree with some stanzas,
    But I'm so happy that it was reviwed. I'd like to know what I can do to help.
    Last edited by Asufa; 11-19-2015 at 01:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Quote Originally Posted by Asufa View Post
    Sorry, but I sent a response. I can't see it. I sent you a message talking about.

    The translation is much better than mine, I just don't agree with some stanzas,
    But I'm so happy that it was reviwed. I'd like to know what I can do to help.
    I'm sorry, I don't have any message from you. Can you send it again, or just tell me what you said?

    Anyway, given that this thread is three years old and we long since assumed that you weren't going to respond and went ahead with posting the new translation (or rather, Azu did that, since I wasn't an admin back then), I don't think there's much that needs to be done about it at this point, although if you have feedback on my translation, I'd be happy to hear it.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    I thought that I sent a private message to AzureDark, talking about the plot of Utena.
    But Azuredark didn't answer me. I'm worried.

    Anyway, it is very long, and I don't want to extend it.
    Just want to focus on the main stanzas.
    Last edited by Asufa; 11-21-2015 at 05:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    If you sent the PM in 2012, I don't know why he wouldn't have responded, but if you sent it recently, he's barely around anymore and might not have seen it.

    Anyway, as you might guess, I'm a big fan of Utena and I know the plot pretty well. It's been long enough that I may have forgotten some things (though I think at the time I did this correction I had actually just rewatched it?), but this song is really just outlining the basic premise and I'm pretty clear on that part. If what you're trying to say is that you think parts of my translation are wrong in the context of the story, I would really appreciate you telling me directly--not Azu, who doesn't know Utena, didn't do the translation, and as I said is not on AL.com much now--what the problems are.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    I can't acess animeforum these days, but I'll be back on thursday. I replied AzureDark recently, but I had no reply. Since you know all the plot, I'll surely talk directly to you. These days I'll be busy, but I'll come back on a few days. I'm coming soon.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Asufa, is there anything wrong with just posting your response here in this thread? I'm sure the rest of us would love to see it, too.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Quote Originally Posted by Serei View Post
    Asufa, is there anything wrong with just posting your response here in this thread? I'm sure the rest of us would love to see it, too.
    Thanks--I think it's a very good idea, actually, to post your comments publicly. I mean, I'm the only active admin left, so I'm having to make a judgment call on my own translation, and of course I'm biased in favor of... myself. So having the criticism out in the open where others can see it and give their input would probably help to ensure that I don't overlook any valid criticisms because I'm so set on my own interpretation--if you don't mind, of course, @Asufa .

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Everyone:

    Tamago no kara wo yaburaneba Hinadori wa umarezu ni shinde yuku
    Warera ga hina da Tamago wa sekai da
    Sekai no kara wo yaburaneba Warera wa umarezu ni shinde yuku
    Sekai no kara wo hakai se yo!

    Sekai wo kakumei suru tameni Sekai wo kakumei suru tameni


    If it does not break the egg's: shell, the chick will die without being born
    We are the chick; the world is the egg
    If we do not break the world's shell, we will die without being born
    Destroy the world's shell!

    To revolutionize the world! To revolutionize the world!

    That's alright!


    Everyone:
    Bara no kokuin niyori erabareshi warera
    Sekai no hate no tegami ni shitagai tsudou warera
    Chance (chansu) wo ataerareta Duellist (kettousha)
    Kettou (duel) ni kachi te ni ireru no da Bara no Hanayome


    We were chosen according to the engraved rose [seal]
    We assemble and follow the letters of End of the World
    Duellist [kettousha] has given us chances, surely,
    He will obtain her in a duel [the dueler],
    The Rose Bride

    (kokuin) means carved seal.

    (kettou) means only duel.

    (kettousha) means duellist and dueller.
    It means that both the duellist and the dueller are the same.


    Himemiya:
    Saa watashi to engage shite
    Mairimashou tenkuu no maboroshi no shiro
    Sekai wo kakumei suru chikara wa Watashi to tomo ni iru hito no mono


    Come now, engage me,
    Let's go, towards the celestial vision of the castle above
    The power to revolutionize the world belongs to those
    Who can stay by my side.


    (tenkuu) means the heavens, not illusory.
    (maboroshi)could be illusory, but in this case it refers to a vision
    (hito no mono) means those humans who stay with me

    Himemiya:

    Ima watashi wa Saionji-sama ni
    Subete yudane mainichi wo sugo shite imasu
    Sore wa bara no kokuin no okite Bara no Hanayome no unmei desu


    Now, I spend each day
    Entirely devoted to Saionji-sama
    That is the law of the Rose's Carved Seal,
    The fate of Rose Bride


    I am open to any criticism, please, I may be too literal what I don't like in translation.
    Last edited by Asufa; 11-26-2015 at 10:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    I'm sorry, I do appreciate you taking the time to do this, but I still don't agree with your interpretation. Some of it may be a question of literalism, but even if I did the most stilted literal translation I could manage, I think we'd still significantly disagree on several points of grammar.

    (kokuin) means carved seal.
    It's usually just translated as Rose Seal as far as I know, anyone in the English-speaking Utena fandom probably knows what that refers to, but if you think it's particularly important to change it to "carved Rose Seal," I can add that in.

    (kettou) means only duel.
    Yes, but you're completely ignoring that it says 決闘に勝ち手に入れるのは. That's where the "winning" part comes from, not "kettou" itself. It literally says "[Upon/after] winning in a duel, what will be obtained is..." I've worked the English grammar around to sound more natural, but I am absolutely not adding anything into those lines that wasn't already there.

    (kettousha) means duellist and dueller.
    It means that both the duellist and the dueller are the same.
    There is no such word as "dueller" in English, and as such I can't understand the distinction that you're making. In addition, I still think that it's wrong to (a) interpret "Duellist" as referring to one specific person and (b) interpret the line to mean that Duellist, or a duellist, is the one giving the chance. It's 与えられた, note the られた. It's passive. And チャンスを与えられた is a verb phrase modifying "Duellist," so the duellist has been given a chance.

    (tenkuu) means the heavens, not illusory.
    (maboroshi)could be illusory, but in this case it refers to a vision
    I am well aware of what tenkuu means, that's why my translation contains the words "in the sky." I'm not sure "illusory castle in the sky" vs. "vision of a castle in the sky" makes terribly much difference in terms of meaning; I'm not strongly against making the change, but I also don't feel that it's particularly necessary or more accurate.

    (hito no mono) means those humans who stay with me
    Despite your flat assertion that this phrase must be plural, I don't see anything in this line that says it has to be. As I said originally, in the context of Utena, only one person at a time has the Rose Bride and therefore the power to revolutionize the world. That's the whole reason that they're fighting in the first place. The one-person interpretation also leads into the next verse: the power to revolutionize the world belongs to the one person who has the Rose Bride, and right now that one person is Saionji. Also, it seems from the words you've picked out that you may be reading "hito no mono" as some kind of unit, like the line is [私と共にいる] [人のもの], with the former modifying all of the latter, or something like that? But I'm parsing the line as [私と共にいる人] のもの, lit. "the thing of (a thing belonging to) the person/people who is/are with me."

    If anyone else would like to give their input, I really, really would appreciate it--as I said, I don't want to dismiss legitimate criticism just because I'm an admin hopped up on self-importance or anything; usually if a translator and a would-be corrector were having this kind of argument, I would be the impartial arbiter, but obviously I can't be in this case and there's no other admin around to arbitrate for me. As it is, I don't agree with the suggested corrections and don't feel that any changes to my translation are necessary, but if other people back up Asufa's arguments, then I'll have to admit defeat.
    Last edited by bluepenguin; 11-26-2015 at 11:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Here are my two cents:

    - "Carved Rose Seal" is an ugly translation. The word "seal" in English can be used to refer to both types of seal (封印 and 刻印); the context alone is enough, there's no need to specify which type of seal it is.
    - Leaving aside the matter of dueller vs. duellist, as I don't understand what exactly Asufa is trying to say here, "duellist has given us chances, surely," is simply the wrong translation for チャンスを与えられた デュエリスト. I don't see the need to explain why; anyone who's unsure should check a basic Japanese grammar book on passive verb form.
    - "He will obtain her in a duel": as bluepenguin said, the "winning" part is missing.
    - "Come now, engage me": you're using the wrong grammar for the word "engage" here.
    - "the celestial vision of the castle above": this is bad English. There's no basis for comparison here, since this phrase itself does not make a lot of sense.
    - "(hito no mono) means those humans who stay with me": in a sentence such as this, "hitotachi" would be the correct word in most cases if the sentence were referring to more than one person (I suppose "hito" could be used, but that would be extremely awkward Japanese). Plus what bluepenguin said about the semantic implication of the sentence.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Asufa I never received any PM from you... >_>

    ...so that you know where you can find me

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    薔薇の刻印により選ばれし我ら
    世界の果ての手紙に従い集う我ら
    チャンスを与えられたデュエリスト
    決闘に勝ち手にいれるのだ 薔薇の花嫁

    [bluepenguin]
    We who have been chosen by the Rose Seal
    We who gather in accordance with the letters from End of the World
    Each of us duelists, given a chance
    The victor of the duel will obtain her: the Rose Bride

    [Asufa]
    We were chosen according to the engraved rose seal
    We assemble and follow the letters of End of the World
    Duellist has given us chances, surely,
    He will obtain her in a duel [the dueler],
    The Rose Bride
    "chosen by" and "chosen according to" both fit, but "chosen by" is a lot more idiomatic English. Minor point to bluepenguin.

    "We who have been" and "We who gather in accordance with" is formal English fitting the setting/style of Utena. Minor point to bluepenguin.

    "Rose Seal" is the most common translation of "薔薇の刻印" in English subtitles of Utena. Minor point to bluepenguin.

    In addition, "engraved rose seal" sounds unwieldy in English. Minor point to bluepenguin.

    I have a minor pet peeve with people translating loanwords back to the loaned word too often; "chance" isn't always the best translation of "チャンス"; I think "opportunity" fits better, or even something like "privilege". Both of you used "chance", though, so no points.

    "Duelist" is a title, not a name, so "Duellist has given us chances" needs an article like "A Duelist" or "The Duelist" to be grammatically correct. bluepenguin explained this in the first post in this thread; you should read it if you haven't. Major point to bluepenguin.

    "与えられた" is passive; "chansu wo ataerareta Duelist" means "Duelists who have been given a chance". It would need to be "Duelist ni chansu wo ataerareta" to mean "chance given by a Duelist", and even so, rewriting it in active voice unnecessarily loses a lot of the feel. Major point to bluepenguin.

    I don't understand what "[the dueler]" means here. "Dueler" is archaic English and has nearly entirely been supplanted by "duelist". I'll be charitable and assume it's a translation note and not part of the translation, so no points.

    ":" is the better punctuation symbol in context. Minor point to bluepenguin.
    さあ 私とエンゲージして
    まいりましょう 天空の幻の城
    世界を革命する力は 私と共にいる人のもの

    [bluepenguin]
    Yes, become engaged to me and we'll go
    To the illusory castle in the sky
    The power to revolutionize the world belongs to the one who is with me

    [Asufa]
    Come now, engage me,
    Let's go, towards the celestial vision of the castle above
    The power to revolutionize the world belongs to those
    Who can stay by my side.
    The singer is not the warp drive of the starship Enterprise, so "engage me" is wrong. bluepenguin explained this in the first post in this thread, too. Major point to bluepenguin.

    "illusory" is a better interpretation of "幻の" in context than "vision of". Minor point to bluepenguin.

    "天空の" means "in the sky/heavens", and "in the sky" works better in context than "celestial... above". Minor point to bluepenguin.

    I would disagree with Himawari; "共にいる人" out of context wouldn't be particularly awkward Japanese for "people who are with me". You could argue that it's singular since Anthy is talking about her fiancé. But on the other hand, Anthy changes fiancés often enough that I wouldn't call it a mistake to interpret it as plural. Especially when "those" is the translation; as an analogy, "Only those who are pure of heart are fit to be my wife" doesn't imply that the speaker will take more than one wife. I don't see either translation as noticeably better. No points.

    On the other hand, "the one who is with me" is a more faithful to the original Japanese. Minor point to bluepenguin.
    今 私は西園寺様に
    すべてゆだね 毎日を過ごしています
    それは薔薇の刻印の掟 薔薇の花嫁の運命です

    [bluepenguin]
    Now, I spend each day
    Entirely devoted to Saionji-sama
    That is the law of the Rose Seal, the fate of the Rose Bride

    [Asufa]
    Now, I spend each day
    Entirely devoted to Saionji-sama
    That is the law of the Rose's Carved Seal,
    The fate of Rose Bride
    As mentioned earlier, "Rose Seal" is a better translation for 薔薇の刻印.

    ---------- Post added at 04:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 PM ----------

    By the way, for some reason, this song doesn't have kanji lyrics. I'm submitting these now:
    卵の殻を破らねば 雛鳥は生まれずに死んで行く
    我らが雛だ 卵は世界だ
    世界の殻を破らねば 我らは生まれず死んで行く
    世界の殻を破壊せよ!

    世界を革命するために 世界を革命するために

    薔薇の刻印により選ばれし我ら
    世界の果ての手紙に従い集う我ら
    チャンスを与えられたデュエリスト
    決闘に勝ち手にいれるのだ 薔薇の花嫁

    さあ 私とエンゲージして
    まいりましょう 天空の幻の城
    世界を革命する力は 私と共にいる人のもの

    今 私は西園寺様に
    すべてゆだね 毎日を過ごしています
    それは薔薇の刻印の掟 薔薇の花嫁の運命です

    薔薇の刻印により選ばれし我ら
    世界の果ての手紙に従い集う我ら
    チャンスを与えられたデュエリスト
    決闘に勝ち手に入れるのだ 薔薇の花嫁

    世界を革命するために 世界を革命するために

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Thanks for that in-depth evaluation, @Serei ! Good point about Anthy having a lot of fiance(e)s consecutively even if not all at once--I didn't think of it that way. Though I agree that the Japanese could really go either way, so... /shrug

    Thanks also for the kanji! A lot of my older submissions are missing them, honestly; I used to be pretty lazy about that.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Thank you to make it clear, Serei. There were many english expression I didn't know.

    I come to post what I know about Utena, some elucidations that I find interesting.



    A new version


    Bara no kokuin niyori erabareshi warera
    Sekai no hate no tegami ni shitagai tsudou warera
    CHANSU wo ataerareta Duellist [1]
    Kettou ni kachi te ni ireru no da
    Bara no hanayome

    We who have been chosen by the Rose Crest
    We who gather in accordance with the letters from End of the World
    Each of us, duelists, given a chance [by End of the World]
    The victor of the duel will be theirs: The Rose Bride

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Saa watashi to engage shite
    Mairimashou tenkuu no maboroshi no shiro
    Sekai wo kakumei suru chikara wa
    Watashi to tomo ni iru hito no mono

    Yes, become engaged to me and we'll go
    To the illusory castle in the sky
    The power to revolutionize the world belongs
    To the one who is with me [till the end]

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ima watashi wa Saionji-sama ni
    Subete yudane mainichi wo sugo shite imasu
    Sore wa bara no kokuin no okite
    Bara no Hanayome no unmei desu

    Now, I spend each day
    Entirely devoted to Saionji-sama
    That is the law of the Rose Crest,
    The fate of the Rose Bride


    ---------------------------------------------------------------


    First stanza:

    "engraved rose seal" is not good english. Sorry. I mean the ring each one received was forged somehow, And they made the signal of a rose over it. It suits "Rose Seal". I agree. You can delete the part of "rose crest" because it doesn't follow the idea of the song.

    I just don't know if it is the "stamped seal" [fuuin] and [kokuin] also refers to the letters. Or 'carved seal' or 'engraved seal' (an awkward translation). And 'bara no [kokuin] refers to rose seal. I added rose crest, but rose seal is better. It follows the translation. Okay.

    [1]

    "Duelist" is a title, not a name, so "Duellist has given us chances" needs an article like "A Duelist" or "The Duelist" to be grammatically correct. bluepenguin explained this in the first post in this thread; you should read it if you haven't. Major point to bluepenguin.


    "Duellist has given us chances" needs an article like "A Duelist" or "The Duelist" to be grammatically correct.


    "Duelist" refers only to a single person, not more than one person. But it can refer to more than one person, you are right. But talking about articles, since there aren't articles in Japanese, it doesn't make it clear we are talking about "Duelists". About the article, for me to become grammatically correct, we should find articles in Japanese grammar for plural. Sorry, I don't agree with you about the Duelist. But it doesn't matter, I guess you know more about Utena than me. Japanese songs are full of english terms that if you translate from english to english of other country, they make no sense. The word "Duelists" could possibly be kettou (plural). Duellist (singular) is surely kettousha, in this case! But I'm investigating.



    CHANSU wo ataerareta Duellist

    Each of us, duelists, given a chance [by End of the World]
    Each of us we were given a chance by the Duellist


    The End of the World is the last duelist.
    It can be interpreted as Akio (Lucifer).


    That's not clear we're talking about each duellist. As you said, it is in the passive form, anyway, it changed place because of as poetry licence. But in this case it becomes redundant it if I repeat duellist twice. Furthermore, even Akio says that "I am not a duellist". Even if he said he is a common duelist or a duelist who decides the battles, it doesn't matter.

    Each of us, duelists, given a chance by the Duellist


    ------------

    Second stanza:


    "Until the end" is just adding more deep meaning when we're talking about the end of the world. But it's not necessary to put it, it's okay.
    And it also helps it because Anthy is changing fiancés all the time, she acts like a doll, with no own desire.

    It doesn't need to include the fact that Akio is not the a duelist, but the one who created all the illusion.

    The lyrics "watashi to tomo ni iru hito no mono". I was thinking about that Anthy like friendship with monsters and animals, she feels confortable with them, so I made it complicated. I wanted to say, the power to revolutionize the world is with "the creatures from the people who stay with me", or with "a human (person) with a noble heart who like animals or creatures". But they are vague translations. Sorry for insisting in putting in plural. I know that only one can acquire the power of Dios. I don't know if that was the wish of Himemiya.

    There are a lot of speech in the musical that we don't include in the lyrics.
    Last edited by Asufa; 12-11-2015 at 06:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    The word "Duelists" could possibly be kettou (plural). Duellist (singular) is surely kettousha, in this case! But I'm investigating.
    No, "kettou" means "duel." "Kettousha" means either "a duelist" or "multiple duelists." Japanese doesn't change or add anything for plurals unless it really wants to emphasize the plurality (in which case it adds -tachi), as anyone who has put the least amount of study into the language should know.

    As you said, it is in the passive form, anyway, it changed place because of as poetry licence.
    I love poetic license, and my translation of that line also takes an amount of license that some people would probably consider excessive, but when you know the verb is in passive form and choose to ignore that because you think it sounds better, I feel that's taking poetic license too far. Then you're actually misrepresenting what the original is saying.

    The lyrics "watashi to tomo ni iru hito no mono". I was thinking about that Anthy like friendship with monsters and animals, she feels confortable with them, so I made it complicated. I wanted to say, the power to revolutionize the world is with "the creatures from the people who stay with me", or with "a human (person) with a noble heart who like animals or creatures".
    You seem to be separating this clause too much from the clause before it, or at least looking at the grammar in an odd way. It's one sentence: "世界を革命する力は私と共にいる人のもの." The もの is the 世界を革命する力, and the one/ones who have it are 私と共にいる人, not 人のもの. There's really no basis in the actual text for your interpretation. (Also, Anthy does love animals, but I don't think they can acquire the power of Dios.)

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    I was summoned by Asufa to moderate the discussion, particularly about the Duelist part whether it is in singular or plural.
    Japanese works in a way that using plural form (i.e. adding -tachi or -ra) is only on implication.
    Rather that trying to read the technical parts in the discussion, I came back to the original lyrics and read them and concluded that it is clear to me that warera equals duelist(s).

    This, added to excellent jury analysis by @Serei that hugely favours @bluepenguin , I rule that the lyrics should be completely changed to bluepenguin's version.

    Do not be angry that this had happened. If you yourself had acknowledged that the corrector is a better translator who knows the source material more, surely to surrender your case is for the better of the fans of the song. We translate for the fans, not for ourselves.

    ...so that you know where you can find me

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Quote Originally Posted by AzureDark View Post
    I was summoned by Asufa to moderate the discussion, particularly about the Duelist part whether it is in singular or plural.
    Japanese works in a way that using plural form (i.e. adding -tachi or -ra) is only on implication.
    Rather that trying to read the technical parts in the discussion, I came back to the original lyrics and read them and concluded that it is clear to me that warera equals duelist(s).

    This, added to excellent jury analysis by @Serei that hugely favours @bluepenguin , I rule that the lyrics should be completely changed to bluepenguin's version.

    Do not be angry that this had happened. If you yourself had acknowledged that the corrector is a better translator who knows the source material more, surely to surrender your case is for the better of the fans of the song. We translate for the fans, not for ourselves.
    Thanks, Azu. It's really good to have you around to make this judgment call. Can we close this thread now, do you think?

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    I still have got my doubts about the Duelist, bluepenguin. I ask for you a little bit of patience.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Quote Originally Posted by Asufa View Post
    I still have got my doubts about the Duelist, bluepenguin. I ask for you a little bit of patience.
    I've been patient. You resurrected a three-year-old thread for a correction that had already been put through to dispute it and you've made many arguments which have not convinced anyone. I, Serei, and @AzureDark , in looking at the original Japanese lyrics, have all come to the same conclusion, which differs from yours, and an official ruling has now been made by an admin who isn't me. Further patience just seems like it will drag the discussion on in an endless stalemate, in which you continue to fail to convince me or @AzureDark of your correctness and we continue to fail to convince you of ours. Even if you believe in your heart that everyone other than you who's commented in this thread is a big idiot who doesn't understand Japanese, I think it's probably best to accept that the argument has run its course.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    As I said, it's just an opinion. I like your translation and aproved it too. It's very good, but why you insist in not puttting complete statements? Don't you want to see other translations with more complete and accurate ideas? I agree with every one. I am not saying that I am right. I bow to all of you like masters in the art of learning Japanese. But it doesn't make me have got to agree with you. In a democracy, even if most people agree, if only one person doesn't agree, it's not true democracy. What I want to show is just my opinion. I don't know why you are nervous. I wanna practice with all of you, of course, I know you don't have time to teach Japanese. I said to learn the poetic license, the inverse of orders. In Japanese, mainly in haikai or songs, we can't translate it, you know it. It loses the original aspect.

    So please, maybe I am completely wrong, I will not cry. I'll just try to show what I saw. And I ask you to try to be open-minded, because it's very rare today to see someone like this. Your translation is accurate but I think I found some aspect in the plot that can be there if we pay attention on this aspect about "the Duelist" and "the illusory castle". Please, don't be angry with me. I have even sent some elucidations in private messages to Azuredark but I guess I was wrong. I have to show to everyone. I really was afraid of rejection. So, if you please, listen to what I say, I accept defeat, but I will not be sad since it is the true plot of Utena. Do you understand me now?

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    Quote Originally Posted by Asufa View Post
    It's very good, but why you insist in not puttting complete statements?
    What do you mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asufa View Post
    Don't you want to see other translations with more complete and accurate ideas?
    Yes. I am always happy to see other people's takes on things that I've translated, and sometimes those are more accurate or otherwise better than mine. I disagree that your translation is more accurate, and so do several other people, apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asufa View Post
    I agree with every one. I am not saying that I am right. I bow to all of you like masters in the art of learning Japanese. But it doesn't make me have got to agree with you.
    So do you agree or don't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asufa View Post
    In a democracy, even if most people agree, if only one person doesn't agree, it's not true democracy.
    This site is not, and has never been, a democracy. Admins have the ability to make the final call on whether proposed corrections are accurate or necessary, and an admin has done so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asufa View Post
    What I want to show is just my opinion. I don't know why you are nervous.
    You have already shown your opinion, and I have listened to it, and disagreed with it, as did a number of other people. I'm not nervous, I'm tired of this argument and frustrated that I have to keep having it. Please don't try to make it look like I'm responding in this way because I'm afraid that I'm wrong and you'll show me up or something. I welcomed criticism at the beginning. You gave your criticism, I listened to it, I disagreed with it, Azu disagreed with it. I owe it to you to listen to what you have to say; I don't owe it to you to agree, or even to keep listening over and over and over to the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asufa View Post
    I said to learn the poetic license, the inverse of orders.
    As I said, I know what poetic license is. I use it frequently in my translations. I know that perfectly literal translations are not possible, especially in songs. Translating a passive verb as if it were an active verb isn't poetic license, it's just inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asufa View Post
    Your translation is accurate but I think I found some aspect in the plot that can be there if we pay attention on this aspect about "the Duelist" and "the illusory castle".
    I think you're reading too much into the song. It's setting up the basic premise of the story, which contains duelists, who fight in duels, and an illusory castle in the sky, where they fight duels. There's no reason to keep stretching to find some other meaning or interpretation for those particular lines.

    I'm not particularly angry with you. I am, however, tired of this discussion, which has gotten repetitive and only seems like it will become more repetitive if we keep going. I would like to be done with it. Azu's comment really should be the last word on the topic--if he had said that you were right about the duelist thing, I would have accepted that, made any necessary changes, and moved on. I wish you would do the same, as Azu also asked you to.

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    Default Re: Revolutionary GirlUtena - Sekai o Kakumei Suru Tame ni

    I am tired, just like you. So let's finish it. Sorry, I didn't want to take it too far and to look like rude. That's my final statement. You can do all the adjusments you want.

    We were chosen by the Rose Seal
    In accordance with the letters of the ends
    Of the world
    The Duelist has given our chance
    She is at the hand of the one who wins the duel
    The Rose Bride


    Note: The Duelist refers the The Rose Bride. I said the "ends of the world", we don't know where the end is exactly.

    Now become engaged to me
    The power to revolutionize the world
    Into the illusory castle from the empty skies
    Is with the person who is with me


    The second part of the translation is good, but it needs a transformation. To begin, after "shiro", there is no particle. I suggested the particule "e to", instead of simply "e". Maybe it is "wo" or "e no". There is something we have to do about "empty heavens".


    Note: Now she is with Saionji, she is invinting him to go again to the illusory castle. So, if we want to revolutionize like the way we look to things above (illusory castle), the only way to revolutionize the world should be seeing true nature of it (empty heavens). Dios is not in the illusory castle, but beyond it. Something like a tower of Babel.

    What I want to say is that Himemiya Anthy with her noble heart always knew everything. About the duels from Akio, from Touga Kiryuu. Saionji. She just kept silence. That's why I put her as Duelist. I think that Duelist is not someone who is the the active mode of fight, but in the receptive mode of fight. She was in all the duels. She prepared all the duels. She knew everything. If you think that Duelist doesn't suit the way of thinking about Anthy Himemiya, I can't help it.



    Now, I spend each day
    Entirely devoted to Saionji-sama
    I spend it everyday with him.
    That is the law of the Rose Seal,
    The fate of the Rose Bride


    Note: "I spend it everyday with him" means that he took her by force, probably, and maybe she doesn't trust him. The law is to accept without saying anything.

    The other duellists like Touga Kiryuu, and Akio were mere distractions for Anthy Himemiya.

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