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  1. #26
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Alright, this has been wolfgirl90. We're done here.
    Had this been an "Actual" emergency, the above would have been followed with a...
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  3. #27
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayu View Post
    Personally I believe that if society deems something acceptable because it was intended to better society then it is right by definition. The effects may even hurt society, but since society deemed it acceptable and it intended to help it progress. Are all the situations correct to deem acceptable? No, but we can adapt and change that right to wrong at any time. Or wrong to right, depending on society and it's motives during a certain time.
    Which was kinda my point. Societies have twisted crap to work in their favor for ages. Now, I'm not going to get into WHY groups discriminated against other people (although, since I am a member of an often discriminated group, the "progression" argument makes me want to roll my eyes), but my point is that discrimination was never morally "right", regardless of what people thought at the time. Thinking that its "right" doesn't suddenly mean that it is (which is what I've saying from the beginning). Similarly, just because file sharing has become more sociably acceptable doesn't necessarily mean that its suddenly "right" (it could just mean that a bunch of people don't mind doing something that's "wrong").

    This is why its a can of worms. There are things that against most moral codes (demeaning people, stealing, killing). But if someone can find justification behind it that works in their favor, does the action become unquestionably "right"?
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  4. #28
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    Default Re: So

    @wolfgirl90 Right and wrong has two faces as far as I'm concerned. There's the individual, as in personal belief and the social which is determined by the community. The community version might not mesh with any one belief but should hold the majority's views. In accordance to file sharing and your viewing that it's wrong, that'd fall under personal belief that it's wrong. I personally don't think it has anything to do with getting content for free but just another way to share ones interest with others.

    As for taking things away from an artist, I'll go back to music. Singers/bands don't make much off of CDs. They tend to make most of their money from tours and appearances. Thanks to the Internet, labels aren't really needed anymore since you can simply post something on the Internet and get known that way. Prime example (despite not liking him and he having a label now) is Justin Bieber. You think without the net he would have been discovered no. There's also DeStorm and davedays who make enough money off of YouTube to continue doing what they love without a label. From this we can deem that labels are no longer needed and should fall to the wayside. Yet, due to current laws we're required to support their outdated business model.

    While for the most part it may be considered stealing now, it might not be in fifteen years. Our views on digital media are changing and have never been completely set in stone.

  5. #29
    Senior Member Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi has a reputation beyond repute Chigumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: So

    So Xey is illegal?

  6. #30
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    Default Re: So

    I don't download anime, I buy it. Downloaded anime usually lacks in content. But yeah. It's pretty illegal.

  7. #31
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by Rythmol View Post
    I don't download anime, I buy it. Downloaded anime usually lacks in content. But yeah. It's pretty illegal.
    While technically true, I find so called "extra features" these days to really be sub par.

    @chiisanae When has @Xey Oiz been legit? He's probably off breaking some law right now.

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  9. #32
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    @wolfgirl90 While for the most part it may be considered stealing now, it might not be in fifteen years. Our views on digital media are changing and have never been completely set in stone.

    "Are all the situations correct to deem acceptable? No, but we can adapt and change that right to wrong at any time. Or wrong to right, depending on society and it's motives during a certain time.
    "

    Exactly my point I concluded.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    This is why its a can of worms. There are things that against most moral codes (demeaning people, stealing, killing). But if someone can find justification behind it that works in their favor, does the action become unquestionably "right"?
    It depends. I'm not sure if your referring to this, but, for example, a person has a sibling for instance and that sibling is to be murdered innocently by a serial killer that is wrong. If that person responds by killing that said serial killer, that by definition, is still wrong. True that there is the eye for and eye saying, but both situations, no matter the motives, are wrong. Society did not change to see murder fit in that situation, but only the person who lost their sibling did. Society is not that single person and that person cannot choose what is right and wrong by them-self.

    Justice is a concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, or equity, along with the punishment of the breach of said ethics; justice is the act of being just and/or fair.
    "But if someone can find justification behind it(demeaning people, stealing, killing) that works in their favor, does the action become unquestionably 'right'? "

    It is nearly impossible for a person to find justice from some action that is against moral code(demeaning people, stealing, killing). How can justice be found in acts such as killing no matter what motive there is behind it when it's against moral righteousness? Religion, law, and rationality, all point to these acts these being against most moral codes and unacceptable in society.
    Last edited by Derrick Remon; 12-04-2011 at 02:47 PM.


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  10. #33
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    In accordance to file sharing and your viewing that it's wrong, that'd fall under personal belief that it's wrong. I personally don't think it has anything to do with getting content for free but just another way to share ones interest with others.
    Err...yeah, whatever you say. Personally, I think that one can share "ideas" without stealing something. I can get on a million social media sites and talk about the new Five Finger Death Punch album WITHOUT STEALING IT. You can go to stores (record stores, Best Buy, FYE, Hot Topic), go online (Amazon, MOG, the band's own freaking website) or a "software store" (iTunes, the Android Market) to check out the music and THEN you can talk about it to other people. Uploading an entire album or a DVD to a website is not even necessary to tell people I like it (and one doesn't have to download it to figure out if they like either).

    Why one needs to take media without paying for it in order to "share" an idea is beyond me and at the end of the day, the only reason that I can think of is that a bunch of entitled people think that they shouldn't have to pay for an album or DVD.

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    As for taking things away from an artist, I'll go back to music. Singers/bands don't make much off of CDs. They tend to make most of their money from tours and appearances.
    That's a weird argument. While an artist doesn't necessarily need to make CDs in order to be known, they won't make any really good money without doing so, especially considering that even the most well known bands only tour about once a year (if they tour that year at all).

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    Thanks to the Internet, labels aren't really needed anymore since you can simply post something on the Internet and get known that way. Prime example (despite not liking him and he having a label now) is Justin Bieber. You think without the net he would have been discovered no.
    Do you think that he would have the same amount of fandom and money without a label and selling his music? DeStorm and davedays might make some decent money but an average person doesn't even know who they are (BTW, I didn't know who they were until a few minutes ago).

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    While for the most part it may be considered stealing now, it might not be in fifteen years. Our views on digital media are changing and have never been completely set in stone.
    So far, your argument hasn't proven that the above actions aren't stealing, only that some people have no personal qualms about doing it. An artist doesn't necessarily need a label, but unless they don't mind people sharing their music, people shouldn't be stealing it and spreading it around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayu View Post
    Society is not that single person and that person cannot choose what is right and wrong by them-self.
    That's not what I meant. I was referring to the discrimination thing. Just because most of society decided for themselves that discrimination was okay doesn't mean that it morally was. The same goes for media pirating. Its become more "sociably acceptable" but the fact that a whole bunch of people are doing it doesn't mean that its necessarily "right" (it could mean that everyone is doing something "wrong"), especially when there really isn't any good justification for stealing and sharing media (I've heard many excuses and "sharing ideas" is the lamest one).
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  12. #34
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    That's not what I meant. I was referring to the discrimination thing. Just because most of society decided for themselves that discrimination was okay doesn't mean that it morally was. The same goes for media pirating. Its become more "sociably acceptable" but the fact that a whole bunch of people are doing it doesn't mean that its necessarily "right" (it could mean that everyone is doing something "wrong"), especially when there really isn't any good justification for stealing and sharing media (I've heard many excuses and "sharing ideas" is the lamest one).
    " The same goes for media pirating. Its become more "sociably acceptable" but the fact that a whole bunch of people are doing it doesn't mean that its necessarily "right" (it could mean that everyone is doing something "wrong"), especially when there really isn't any good justification for stealing and sharing media (I've heard many excuses and "sharing ideas" is the lamest one). "

    Not sure I follow, your saying that the majority of society feels that it is socially acceptable to illegally download media?


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  13. #35
    Great Witch of Britannia wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90 has a reputation beyond repute wolfgirl90's Avatar
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayu View Post
    Not sure I follow, your saying that the majority of society feels that it is socially acceptable to illegally download media?
    What I am saying is that are things that are morally wrong, despite what society thinks as a whole. Going back to discrimination again, society thought that it was okay to do, but that doesn't mean that it was "right" because demeaning people never is. Society merely found an excuse to justify that was inherently wrong; that doesn't mean that it was ever "right" in the first place.

    Same thing with illegally downloading media. It might be more "sociably acceptable", but just because a group of society doesn't find it "wrong" doesn't suddenly mean that its "right". Stealing is one of those things that doesn't have a lot of justification behind it and stealing media has virtually no justification. There really isn't any other reason to do it other than to receive something for free. So society may "accept" it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that its "right".
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  14. #36
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    Default Re: So

    This bit of info was given to me by a friend of mine who fan subs, so it may be a bit bias, anywho:

    According to him, when an anime is aired in Japan, it is sponsored, not copyrighted. Thus it is ok for fan subbers to sub and distribute anime, as long as it does not become a licensed product, hence why his site and other fan sub sites take down an anime once the USA acquires it.

    Again, these were his words, not mine.
    No power in the 'verse can stop me...

  15. #37
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    What I am saying is that are things that are morally wrong, despite what society thinks as a whole. Going back to discrimination again, society thought that it was okay to do, but that doesn't mean that it was "right" because demeaning people never is. Society merely found an excuse to justify that was inherently wrong; that doesn't mean that it was ever "right" in the first place.

    Same thing with illegally downloading media. It might be more "sociably acceptable", but just because a group of society doesn't find it "wrong" doesn't suddenly mean that its "right". Stealing is one of those things that doesn't have a lot of justification behind it and stealing media has virtually no justification. There really isn't any other reason to do it other than to receive something for free. So society may "accept" it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that its "right".
    People illegally download media to either get past paying for it or finding a legal way. People don't download illegal media because it's socially acceptable. Society deems it "wrong" because it hurts society. Morals have to do with an individual. My morals are different from your and vice verso. Just because someone feels that its okay to kill someone, that doesn't have to do with what that person thinks is right or wrong, it has to do with his/her morals.

    I would never steal because my morals tell me it's not wise to do so. Society deems it wrong because it does not help society progress. The law created by the government says its wrong to do so it's illegal.

    So, stealing is:

    Not Wise (Morally or pertaining to Virtues)
    Not Helpful to Society (Not acceptable)
    Not Legal (The government considers it wrong In almost every case)

    There is nothing more to discuss.


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  16. #38
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    Default Re: So

    @wolfgirl90 Gonna go by numbers according to paragraphs.

    1. I didn't say ideas. I said interests. There's a difference. I use music because it's probably the oldest form most people are familiar with. Getting music for free has been around since at least the '90's. Think back to middle school and getting a copy of a CD (as in cd-r disc) from a friend. That's still kinda what's happening here. Technically it was illegal, but in the community that was comprised of the kids at school it wasn't seen negatively. It was acceptable behavior. We're still doing that, just with people we've never met.

    2. Actually, the label gets most of the money from CD sales. And While Artists may only do one tour a year, it's not like they only make 800k doing. No, they make millions of dollars doing it. Not to mention public appearances, interviews, etc. So, CD sales aren't their main source of income. Not to mention many branch out into things like clothing or perfume.

    3. Fair point, I'll give you that, but at the same time we don't necessarily know how much they make. Though I'd put it at the mid to late six figures at least. While they may not have the publicity Bieber has, that may change in the future as we're more and more connected to the net. And you might not know who they are, but millions of people do.

    4. Not trying to defend that under the current definition that it's not stealing. Though the term might be due for reconsideration in what it actually means. Sharing media has become common place. Whether you agree with it or not.

    And to cover the racism point. Back then racism would fall under socially acceptable as the majority of people personally thought it was acceptable. As time passed people started to slowly change their view on it. And eventually those people who changed and started to personally believe it wasn't acceptable became the majority. And as such it became socially unacceptable. What's considered right and wrong is not set in stone. It's ever changing and will always change. Signs of that happening are evident today.

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  18. #39
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet_Nightmare View Post
    This bit of info was given to me by a friend of mine who fan subs, so it may be a bit bias, anywho:

    According to him, when an anime is aired in Japan, it is sponsored, not copyrighted. Thus it is ok for fan subbers to sub and distribute anime, as long as it does not become a licensed product, hence why his site and other fan sub sites take down an anime once the USA acquires it.

    Again, these were his words, not mine.
    Good. Because his words are, for lack of a better word, complete crap.

    To be blunt, ALL anime is copyrighted. Its copyrighted the moment an idea hits paper. Now, some anime is sponsored by a third party, but that's only to cover the cost of airing it. It doesn't negate the copyright. Code Geass may be sponsored by Pizza Hut, but the show's still copyrighted (by Bandai, Sunrise, and a bunch of other people).

    The license defense comes from the fact that some people want to watch an anime, but can't because the anime hasn't been licensed by a foreign distributor. Although they want to show the anime to others, they don't want to get in trouble. So subbers take an anime and distribute it (illegally mind you), but take it down when its licensed under the believe that they are still giving "support" to the anime. However, since they stole the anime in the first place, its not much of a defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayu View Post
    People illegally download media to either get past paying for it or finding a legal way. People don't download illegal media because it's socially acceptable.

    ....There is nothing more to discuss.
    Umm...once again, I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or if you were missing my point...
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  19. #40
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Good. Because his words are, for lack of a better word, complete crap.

    To be blunt, ALL anime is copyrighted. Its copyrighted the moment an idea hits paper. Now, some anime is sponsored by a third party, but that's only to cover the cost of airing it. It doesn't negate the copyright. Code Geass may be sponsored by Pizza Hut, but the show's still copyrighted (by Bandai, Sunrise, and a bunch of other people).

    The license defense comes from the fact that some people want to watch an anime, but can't because the anime hasn't been licensed by a foreign distributor. Although they want to show the anime to others, they don't want to get in trouble. So subbers take an anime and distribute it (illegally mind you), but take it down when its licensed under the believe that they are still giving "support" to the anime. However, since they stole the anime in the first place, its not much of a defense.



    Umm...once again, I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or if you were missing my point...
    I agree with you mostly.


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  20. #41
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    I didn't say ideas. I said interests. There's a difference.
    Fair enough, but again, I could tell you about an album without physically giving it to you. Back then, there was almost no other way to listen to a song before buying it other than the radio or a friend who just happens to have the CD. NOW, there are a million ways to preview songs before buying them without someone handing the song to you, so that argument makes no sense. Again, I don't need to make an ENTIRE album available to you in order to tell you that I liked it. I could just freaking tell you and you can look it up yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    So, CD sales aren't their main source of income
    I never said that it was. Only that touring was only a part of the equation. Also, whether CD sales are a main source of income or not doesn't change the fact that taking music without paying for it is stealing. It seems as if that defense pops up only for pirates to say that musicians make a lot of money doing other things, so who cares if they don't sell a bunch of CDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    While they may not have the publicity Bieber has, that may change in the future as we're more and more connected to the net.
    Of course, until that happens, all I can really do is shrug at your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    Sharing media has become common place. Whether you agree with it or not.
    Again, the only thing that I support is the fact that companies need to allow their work to be more digitally available, from music to anime to books. Allowing people to distribute media against the wishes of a copyright holder is something that I will never agree with and something I will never find justification in.

     
    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    And to cover the racism point. Back then racism would fall under socially acceptable as the majority of people personally thought it was acceptable.
    Okay, this will probably be one of the last times that I discuss the racism thing (because its pissing me off), so here it is. My point was that racism and discrimination were never okay to do in the first place; society merely made an excuse for it so that it would be okay for them to do it. The mere fact that you twist something around and make it sociably "acceptable" doesn't suddenly make an action right.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 12-05-2011 at 12:04 AM.
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  21. #42
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    Default Re: So

    @wolfgirl90

    1. True, but that mindset was already developed and grew when the Internet became popular. And it's not necessarily a wrong mindset since it goes along with the mindset that has evolved due to the openess of knowledge due to the Internet.

    2. First, I buy CDs. Admittedly, most of them are video game soundtracks but I still have over three hundred CDs and have owned more in the past. So no, not just pirates say that. I say that since it's the truth. CDs are a main source of income for labels. And as I have said, labels are running on an antiquated business model that needs to either change or fall to the wayside.

    3. Sorry, unlike you, I don't just look at the present. I also look at the future and how it might be due to the actions of the present.

    4. I'll say it bluntly, I'm kinda against current copyright laws and holders. Mostly because nine out of ten times the people who created something don't hold the rights to it. I don't mean those that choose to give away the right to it. I mean those that lose it due to some contract. This is more common in corporations. For example, an engineer invents a product, due to his contract with said company, he never owns the rights to it. He makes 45k that year and the company makes millions off the product. But I digress and that is probably another discussion entirely.

    To the spoiler response. We can drop the racism aspect. My point is, who deems what is right and wrong. To me it's the community which is comprised of the opinion of the majority of the individuals. There's nothing to say this is wholly and absolutely right or wrong. We have to determine that ourselves.

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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    Fair enough, but again, I could tell you about an album without physically giving it to you. Back then, there was almost no other way to listen to a song before buying it other than the radio or a friend who just happens to have the CD. NOW, there are a million ways to preview songs before buying them without someone handing the song to you, so that argument makes no sense. Again, I don't need to make an ENTIRE album available to you in order to tell you that I liked it. I could just freaking tell you and you can look it up yourself.



    I never said that it was. Only that touring was only a part of the equation. Also, whether CD sales are a main source of income or not doesn't change the fact that taking music without paying for it is stealing. It seems as if that defense pops up only for pirates to say that musicians make a lot of money doing other things, so who cares if they don't sell a bunch of CDs.



    Of course, until that happens, all I can really do is shrug at your argument.



    Again, the only thing that I support is the fact that companies need to allow their work to be more digitally available, from music to anime to books. Allowing people to distribute media against the wishes of a copyright holder is something that I will never agree with and something I will never find justification in.

     


    Okay, this will probably be one of the last times that I discuss the racism thing (because its pissing me off), so here it is. My point was that racism and discrimination were never okay to do in the first place; society merely made an excuse for it so that it would be okay for them to do it. The mere fact that you twist something around and make it sociably "acceptable" doesn't suddenly make an action right.
    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    @wolfgirl90

    1. True, but that mindset was already developed and grew when the Internet became popular. And it's not necessarily a wrong mindset since it goes along with the mindset that has evolved due to the openess of knowledge due to the Internet.

    2. First, I buy CDs. Admittedly, most of them are video game soundtracks but I still have over three hundred CDs and have owned more in the past. So no, not just pirates say that. I say that since it's the truth. CDs are a main source of income for labels. And as I have said, labels are running on an antiquated business model that needs to either change or fall to the wayside.

    3. Sorry, unlike you, I don't just look at the present. I also look at the future and how it might be due to the actions of the present.

    4. I'll say it bluntly, I'm kinda against current copyright laws and holders. Mostly because nine out of ten times the people who created something don't hold the rights to it. I don't mean those that choose to give away the right to it. I mean those that lose it due to some contract. This is more common in corporations. For example, an engineer invents a product, due to his contract with said company, he never owns the rights to it. He makes 45k that year and the company makes millions off the product. But I digress and that is probably another discussion entirely.

    To the spoiler response. We can drop the racism aspect. My point is, who deems what is right and wrong. To me it's the community which is comprised of the opinion of the majority of the individuals. There's nothing to say this is wholly and absolutely right or wrong. We have to determine that ourselves.


    Now since we all have had our share of this topic, I feel it is best to conclude our discussion about if downloading anime is illegal or not, and if it isn't then why? So we are all on the same page, even a conclusion/summary should do the job.


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  23. #44
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    Default Re: So

    I just read that the swiss goverment as declared that downloading for personal use isn't illegal.


    http://www.webpronews.com/swiss-gove...-legal-2011-12



    From the article
    The government of Switzerland has issued a statement declaring that it will not take action to alter current copyright laws allowing the downloading of music and movies for personal use. The statement is the result of a lengthy study conducted by the Swiss government into the impact of so-called “piracy” on the entertainment industry.

    The entertainment industry has been complaining in Switzerland – as in the US and elsewhere – that the unauthorized downloading of music and movies has harmed their business. The situation in Switzerland is somewhat unique, in that current copyright law considers the downloading of content for personal use as acceptable and legal. The entertainment industry has been lobbying the Swiss government to change the law. This study is the government’s response.
    Quote Originally Posted by dustin789 View Post
    Is it illegal to download anime?
    So... atleast in Switzerland I guess it's legal? [???]




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  24. #45
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    Default Re: So

    Downloading anime kind of goes by a slightly different set of rules then most other media as long as the anime isn’t licensed in your country then they cant fine you for downloading it but once it is licensed then it would be wise to just buy it.
    The proud owner of the FIRST EVER self-perpetual neko gyroscope!



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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    @chiisanae When has @Xey Oiz been legit? He's probably off breaking some law right now.
    Haha, but that makes him cool! :P

  26. #47
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    Default Re: So

    @SuXrys Got a spare room? @chiisanae If @Xey Oiz is cool, I'm a monkey's uncle.

  27. #48
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    @SuXrys Got a spare room?

    Spare room?

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  28. #49
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by SuXrys View Post

    Spare room?
    As in bedroom. As in, can I move in?

  29. #50
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    Default Re: So

    Quote Originally Posted by GameGeeks View Post
    As in bedroom. As in, can I move in?

    Nops! Sorry, but I have to deny your request.
    Besides, I don't even live in Switzerland if that was what you were thinking.

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