Question on Suicide

[Yukari]

Alright, so I've been watch 9/11 videos all die. I've seen people jumping to their deaths.

In my religion, jumping to your death is suicide and suicide is seen as you are going to hell. I'm catholic, by the way.

I am just wondering if the people who jumped to their death is considered to have committed suicide. It was either be burned to death, or jump to their death.

Discuss

[Ragenomics]

To be honest, there's no really easy way to answer that. I mean, technically it was suicide but so was doing nothing since it was very likely to have the same results. It's trying to apply a black-and-white principle to a situation that is anything but.

[Aranneas]

I would consider it this way.

Was there a clear course of action that, if they took, they had a possibility to keep living? (You can put all kinds of limiters on this as to what it might have cost in terms of their other principles if you so choose.)

If no such option existed, it wasn't suicide - just choosing the way you go.

[animeyay]

I wouldn't call it suicide, since those people didn't jump with the intention to kill themselves.

It was more or less a gamble: to stay in a burning building and be burned to crisp or to jump down with a 0.000001% chance of surviving.

[Gjallarhorn]

I wouldn't call it suicide, since those people didn't jump with the intention to kill themselves.

It was more or less a gamble: to stay in a burning building and be burned to crisp or to jump down with a 0.000001% chance of surviving.

If you are jumping from 60+ floors up, you are doing so with the intent of committing suicide.

I think there's a sort of softening of the subject going on here. Taking one's own life, whatever the reason, constitutes suicide. It is not a "natural" form of death, and it is not at the hands of another - homicide, etc. - it is a conscious decision on one's part to end their own life by their own means. By the Catholic system, any death that is consciously chosen by an individual rather than the "natural" death set up for him by God is "suicide"; man has been given life and has the right to use it, but not to end it, as that falls into God's domain. Violation of this is considered an insult to God and disrespectful of his authority. So to answer your question, yes, according to the Catholic system, the 9/11 jumpers would be going to hell.

[Aranneas]

If you are jumping from 60+ floors up, you are doing so with the intent of committing suicide.

I think there's a sort of softening of the subject going on here. Taking one's own life, whatever the reason, constitutes suicide. It is not a "natural" form of death, and it is not at the hands of another - homicide, etc. - it is a conscious decision on one's part to end their own life by their own means. By the Catholic system, any death that is consciously chosen by an individual rather than the "natural" death set up for him by God is "suicide"; man has been given life and has the right to use it, but not to end it, as that falls into God's domain. Violation of this is considered an insult to God and disrespectful of his authority. So to answer your question, yes, according to the Catholic system, the 9/11 jumpers would be going to hell.

In other words: sit there and wait for the smoke to kill you, damnit, because that's what's supposed to happen to you.

How is this any different from jumping out of the way of the car that would have ended your life? Or going to the hospital and receiving treatment for that wound or sickness? If that's how you were 'meant' to die, have you not displaced God's plan by prolonging your life?

Better yet: Any action one takes displaces the 'status quo' of dying from inaction and lack of nutrition. Aren't we all damned for feeding ourselves?

[Gauntlgrym]

If you are jumping from 60+ floors up, you are doing so with the intent of committing suicide.

first off, you are jumping to avoid burning to death, not to commit suicide. technically, since you are jumping to avoid burning to death, you are jumping to have the small chance of staying alive.
second, you do have a small chance of survival.

people have survived jumping out of planes and having the parachute not open.
http://www.oddee.com/item_96967.aspx

60 floors up looks like a small jump compared to what some people have survived.

[Nanobyte]

If you are jumping from 60+ floors up, you are doing so with the intent of committing suicide.

I think there's a sort of softening of the subject going on here. Taking one's own life, whatever the reason, constitutes suicide. It is not a "natural" form of death, and it is not at the hands of another - homicide, etc. - it is a conscious decision on one's part to end their own life by their own means. By the Catholic system, any death that is consciously chosen by an individual rather than the "natural" death set up for him by God is "suicide"; man has been given life and has the right to use it, but not to end it, as that falls into God's domain. Violation of this is considered an insult to God and disrespectful of his authority. So to answer your question, yes, according to the Catholic system, the 9/11 jumpers would be going to hell.

Xero, this is the first time I wanna slap you. -_-
1: Only god knows who goes to hell. You can say "Oooh that guy was so bad, he must be going to hell!" but you don't know that. God decides on that. Humans cannot understand god, and we can't decide for him.
2: Maybe god destined them to jump off the building? Do you know what god intended for them? I think not...

No offense Xero, but don't talk about things you don't know about.

[Gjallarhorn]

1: Only god knows who goes to hell. You can say "Oooh that guy was so bad, he must be going to hell!" but you don't know that. God decides on that. Humans cannot understand god, and we can't decide for him.

But is the Bible not essentially God's rule book? A learning tool and a benchmark by which human actions are able to be judged as coinciding or against God's will, so we would be able to live correctly according to his will? That those who disrespect and insult God go to hell (unless they have repented) is specified, and that suicide is an affront to God is specified.

2: Maybe god destined them to jump off the building? Do you know what god intended for them? I think not...

But do the Bible and the Catholic Church not specify that suicide is wrong? If, as both of these suggest, God disapproves of suicide, why would he intend for them to commit suicide? Why put them in such awful circumstances such that killing themselves appears to be the better option? Why make the apparently better option be one that is a violation of what is in the Bible? And what of God's omnibenevolence?

No offense Xero, but don't talk about things you don't know about.

By what you say, no one understands God's intentions. In which case, no one should say anything about any religion, ever. Which is all fine and good by me.

[Nanobyte]

*Defensive stuff*

I'm not in the mood to have a religion battle atm, let's just keep it at:

You don't know if they're going to hell. Not you, not me, not some hyper intelligent professor, only God.
Using the bible as an arguement is invalid. I don't take the bible litterally, and even the bible is wriiten by humans.
And then there's the differense between the old and the new testament, but I'm not gonna explain that to you. Please do your research or visit church if you want to know more.

[Gauntlgrym]

But is the Bible not essentially God's rule book?

maybe, but the church doesn't even follow it's own rules sometimes. so if the church is allowed to bend/break the rules.....why can't the average joe??

example:
Thou shall not kill. and it's not just some little rule, it's a big one. one of the top 10.
however the church has killed MANY in the past, and supports killing nowadays by giving their blessing to certain wars.

i'm not trying to get into a huge religious debate. i'm just trying to point out that even the church/pope doesn't look at every rule in the book as 100% black or white.
you simply can't say "well they jumped, so it was suicide".....it's just not that black and white under the circumstances.

[Yukari]

I understand what you are all saying. I was just curious as to what others think. I'm not sure if I could have jumped, but I'm not sure I would have stayed to get burned to death either. To me, I would want to at least try a way to get out. I don't believe it was suicide either. I found out today, that there was one NYFD Firefighter that was killed by a person who jumped to their death. I think that is rather ironic.

[Ceto]

That firefighter would probably have died by anything or everything else that came crashing down.

[Nekogami]

That firefighter would probably have died by anything or everything else that came crashing down.

Of all things, a human being came and hit him instead of big stones.

On topic,
There's a slight chance that you might survive if you fall down. Just like @Gauntlgrym said. Rather than just stay put and die for sure. Desperately want to save yourself, you jump off thinking there's a little chance.

[Eris]

If you're faced with immediately burning to death, or prolonging your life with a few seconds by jumping to your death, which option is suicide?

[RyuTama]

There was nothing they could do to prevent their death; end of story. It wasn't suicide, how I see it, because either way, their chances of survival were next to nil. Also, from what I remember, many people weren't intentionally jumping; some were hanging outside of the windows to try and escape the heat, and ended up falling or being thrown off by the explosions from within the offices. Even if they did intentionally jump, it was merely to avoid the fire that would have surely fried them to a crisp. They couldn't cheat death, no matter what they did, and they're supposed to be damned for that?

What?

Dying from a 60 story fall, or dying from a fire; both are plausible ways to die without suicide in mind. I'm quite sure I'd chance the fall, rather than burning alive; at least the impact would most likely result in a painless death. I doubt that many Catholics that were in the WTC on 9/11/2001 jumped from the windows while thinking "I shoulda stayed in that burning office; I'm going to hell for this". Quite the contrary, I would think that they would be praying to live through the fall.

Just my thoughts.

[RosarioMokaChan]

in my opinion, only the plane jackers committed suicide. Everyone else was murdered. Because if you think about it, the people in the towers who lost their lives did so by the hands of others, as if the planes didn't crash then those unfortunate souls would still be alive. All that some of them did was hurry up the painful process of death by taking the less painful way out. Granted that one or two people may already have been contemplating suicide and may have done so in time to come, however it was still not their choice to die thus it's not suicide. As far as where the souls would go in terms of heaven or hell for those who are religious, i would have to say heaven as they did not sin by ending their lives by their own free will.

That's my opinion

[Gjallarhorn]

All that some of them did was hurry up the painful process of death by taking the less painful way out.

Which constitutes suicide.

first off, you are jumping to avoid burning to death, not to commit suicide.

In this case, the two are one-and-the-same.

In other words: sit there and wait for the smoke to kill you, damnit, because that's what's supposed to happen to you.

Pretty much. Looking at it from a Catholic viewpoint, it comes down to burning alive or taking it into your own hands and jumping. I say that jumping is putting it into your own hands because Catholic doctrine holds that the taking of one's own life under any circumstances is an insult to God, and if we assume that a God exists and is as Catholic doctrine describes, out of the two options presented (burning or jumping), only the choice to stay in the tower and burn would be acceptible, with the second option being an affront to him.

How is this any different from jumping out of the way of the car that would have ended your life? Or going to the hospital and receiving treatment for that wound or sickness? If that's how you were 'meant' to die, have you not displaced God's plan by prolonging your life?

Better yet: Any action one takes displaces the 'status quo' of dying from inaction and lack of nutrition. Aren't we all damned for feeding ourselves?

In the first case, it differs in that jumping out of the way of a car will save your life; in the 9/11 scenario, jumping is a near guarantee of death - albeit a death that is quick and relatively painless. The second scenario brings up another angle of man's right to life in the Catholic doctrine - for sake of ease, I'll quote this page on suicide and Catholicism, which seems like a decent enough source. "God has reserved to himself direct dominion over life; He is the owner of its substance and He has given man only the serviceable dominion, the right of use, with the charge of protecting and preserving the substance, that is, life itself." So by going to a hospital, you are protecting your life - which is all fine and good. Again, by jumping you are knowingly ending your life. No one will jump 60+ stories under the assumption that there is a significant chance of survival. In addition, a 9/11 jumper would be ending their life early, not prolonging it, by jumping rather than staying in the building to burn or until it collapsed.



I should note that I'm not a Catholic and I don't believe any of this - I'd have jumped given the circumstances.

[Xeyuzio]

No, I'm sure they had some hope that they would live so they took the chance for it. I would've done the thing considering burning is more painful and longer than dying almost instantly.

[Skilero]

No, I'm sure they had some hope that they would live so they took the chance for it. I would've done the thing considering burning is more painful and longer than dying almost instantly.

Anyone who stands themselves at that height knows they would not survive such a fall. Those of us saying that there were chances for those who jumped to live should reconsider their statements.

Now, I'm not read-up on the subject from a Biblical standpoint, but couldn't 'God's will for someone's natural circumstances of death' be in suicide itself? We need to quote the passages Catholics follow here to make any ground on this.

[Xeyuzio]

Anyone who stands themselves at that height knows they would not survive such a fall. Those of us saying that there were chances for those who jumped to live should reconsider their statements.

Now, I'm not read-up on the subject from a Biblical standpoint, but couldn't 'God's will for someone's natural circumstances of death' be in suicide itself? We need to quote the passages Catholics follow here to make any ground on this.

Some people have hope just like people have hope in religion. e_e

Edit: I'm not saying I have hope in those things. >.>;

[Psyco_Panda]

I don't think they went to hell. I'm sure god knew the circumstances and understands. I think they went to heaven as long as they have accepted him.

[Hanamaru Kunikida]

Suicide is for the weakling.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[Skylar1]

Suicide is for the weakling.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge like that.

When you consider it, suicide is probably the most difficult and frustrating decision that any person could ever make; because unlike anything and everything else, there's no "undo" button on suicide.

[Hanamaru Kunikida]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge like that.

When you consider it, suicide is probably the most difficult and frustrating decision that any person could ever make; because unlike anything and everything else, there's no "undo" button on suicide.

No, it's nothing more than the easy way out.

If you're stressed or are having life issues, try to counter them instead of being a coward and go on and commit suicide.

And no, there's no undo button in life at all, but what you can do is fix the damage, but it's still not an undo since the "memory" exist. An undo is as it never happened, but it did, you just fixed it.