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Thread: Question on Suicide

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by RyuTama View Post
    So are you saying that those who jumped to their death on 9/11 are cowards? I must be missing something. You never really expressed your opinion on the people whom this thread concerns. Are you saying they committed suicide or not? Are you calling them cowards or not?
    I'm talking about suicide in general. I didn't read the OP, but I am stating that the whole concept of committing suicide is rather weak and foolish.

    I'm religious but I am not really putting religious into my opinion, all I am saying is even if your life sucks bad, you try to combat your obstacles instead of being a chicken and just go and commit suicide, it just makes you look weak.

    ---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by animeyay View Post
    I wouldn't call it suicide, since those people didn't jump with the intention to kill themselves.

    It was more or less a gamble: to stay in a burning building and be burned to crisp or to jump down with a 0.000001% chance of surviving.
    And about the opening post. These are my thoughts. I don't see it as suicide because you will probably die anyways.

    Opening title is misleading and I am stating my opinion on Suicide as whole.
    Last edited by Kaitou+; 09-12-2011 at 05:32 PM.


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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Kαitou View Post
    No, it's nothing more than the easy way out.
    There's suicide, and then there's suicide. Although your statement is incorrect about pretty much every scenario.

    Typically people who commit suicide with their life in front of them suffer from some type of depression (commonly clinical depression, but bipolar people having a low may also qualify), which is not a matter of taking the easy way out. This is an illness that distorts your world view. These people need professional help, not further confirmation that they're worthless.

    Then there's people who have nothing in their future but suffering. For example, those afflicted with incurable terminal illnesses that will make the remainder of their lives a living hell of constant excruciating pain. The jumpers also fall into this category. Instantaneous squishy pavement death is probably preferable to being burned alive.

    Finally there's the sacrificial suicide. Taking your own life in order to save others, proverbially (or in some cases literally) jumping the grenade.
    Last edited by Eris; 09-12-2011 at 06:09 PM.

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  4. #28
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post
    There's suicide, and then there's suicide. Although your statement is incorrect about pretty much every scenario.

    Typically people who commit suicide with their life in front of them suffer from some type of depression (commonly clinical depression, but bipolar people having a low may also qualify), which is not a matter of taking the easy way out. This is an illness that distorts your world view. These people need professional help, not further confirmation that they're worthless.

    Then there's people who have nothing in their future but suffering. For example, those afflicted with incurable terminal illnesses that will make the remainder of their lives a living hell of constant excruciating pain. The jumpers also fall into this category. Instantaneous squishy pavement death is probably preferable to being burned alive.

    Finally there's the sacrificial suicide. Taking your own life in order to save others, proverbially (or in some cases literally) jumping the grenade.
    Yes, in cases like in the latter, it's acceptable, in far that individual deserves some respect..maybe I should've specified more.

    But I don't really find the first acceptable. Life is not a walk in the park, it has never been and it never will be. Also, it's not about being worthless or not, it's about learning to move on or confronting whatever is before you-- even if you're awfully depressed, suicide is still not the "best" option.

    Besides, it's not like those are the only scenarios that exist---many people have commuted suicide for something stupid. Like I said, they think they have a small problem and they think it's the end of the world for them.

    I think this video is relevant. It's stupid how people think they have it hard when other people has it worse.

    I know it doesn't talk about suicide but it shows no matter the difficulties or challenges in life, you can still make it without grabbing a gun and shooting yourself in the head the first time you got a small issue.
    Last edited by Kaitou+; 09-12-2011 at 06:37 PM.


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  5. #29
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Xey Oiz View Post
    No, I'm sure they had some hope that they would live so they took the chance for it. I would've done the thing considering burning is more painful and longer than dying almost instantly.
    Anyone who stands themselves at that height knows they would not survive such a fall. Those of us saying that there were chances for those who jumped to live should reconsider their statements.

    Now, I'm not read-up on the subject from a Biblical standpoint, but couldn't 'God's will for someone's natural circumstances of death' be in suicide itself? We need to quote the passages Catholics follow here to make any ground on this.

  6. #30
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    @Kαitou I don't mean to turn this into a debate of sorts, but I feel that some people who are suicidal warrant sympathy, not shame.

    Consider people with high levels of existentialismwiki. Lacking proper understanding of philosophic and logic syntax, these people can easily fall into a logic trap leading to nihilistic and pessimistic outlooks on life to the point they come to the conclusion to end their own life.

    I'm not arguing against your views; personally a teenager ending their life because a partner dumped them is quite lame, yes. But for others, they require serious mental health help, and I don't think it's really fair to criticize them for their pathology.
    Last edited by Ericgamer1; 09-12-2011 at 07:27 PM.

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  7. #31
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ericgamer1 View Post
    @Kαitou I don't mean to turn this into a debate of sorts, but I feel that some people who are suicidal warrant sympathy, not shame.

    Consider people with high levels of existentialismwiki. Lacking proper understanding of philosophic and logic syntax, these people can easily fall into a logic trap leading to nihilistic and pessimistic outlooks on life to the point they come to the conclusion to end their own life.

    I'm not arguing against your views; personally a teenager ending their life because a partner dumped them is quite lame, yes. But for others, they require serious mental health help, and I don't think it's really fair to criticize them for their pathology.
    I understand where you're coming from, really. But there's people in this world who appreciate life a lot that had to pass on, and then we have clowns who think they have it worse and just ends their lives. That's unfair too.


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  8. #32
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Skillero View Post
    Anyone who stands themselves at that height knows they would not survive such a fall. Those of us saying that there were chances for those who jumped to live should reconsider their statements.

    Now, I'm not read-up on the subject from a Biblical standpoint, but couldn't 'God's will for someone's natural circumstances of death' be in suicide itself? We need to quote the passages Catholics follow here to make any ground on this.
    Some people have hope just like people have hope in religion. e_e

    Edit: I'm not saying I have hope in those things. >.>;
    Last edited by galaco; 09-12-2011 at 08:38 PM.
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  9. #33
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    I'm only answering the OP here, but it really depends on how you look at it. Catholicism forbids suicide, sure. But I would argue that doing nothing and burning to death would also be suicide in that instance. I'm going to go out on a limb here and stereotype a little - when you die, you go see St. Peter at the gates of Heaven. I don't care if that's wrong, it's just to make a point. At that time, your life will be judged. Surely you will have a chance to make your case.

    Burning to death would be suicidal, though if you attempted to run through the flames, there would have been a chance you could make it out. Therefore, not suicide. Jumping from the window or roof would also be suicidal, but there's a chance that you could miraculouly survive the fall, or perhaps grab onto the landing gear of a nearby helicopter, as if you were, perhaps, Bruce Willis. Therefore, not suicide.

    You're faced with one outcome. I don't see how it's a sin to choose your fate.

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  11. #34
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Gjallarhorn View Post
    If you are jumping from 60+ floors up, you are doing so with the intent of committing suicide.

    I think there's a sort of softening of the subject going on here. Taking one's own life, whatever the reason, constitutes suicide. It is not a "natural" form of death, and it is not at the hands of another - homicide, etc. - it is a conscious decision on one's part to end their own life by their own means. By the Catholic system, any death that is consciously chosen by an individual rather than the "natural" death set up for him by God is "suicide"; man has been given life and has the right to use it, but not to end it, as that falls into God's domain. Violation of this is considered an insult to God and disrespectful of his authority. So to answer your question, yes, according to the Catholic system, the 9/11 jumpers would be going to hell.

    Xero, this is the first time I wanna slap you. -_-
    1: Only god knows who goes to hell. You can say "Oooh that guy was so bad, he must be going to hell!" but you don't know that. God decides on that. Humans cannot understand god, and we can't decide for him.
    2: Maybe god destined them to jump off the building? Do you know what god intended for them? I think not...

    No offense Xero, but don't talk about things you don't know about.



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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by iAmb View Post
    1: Only god knows who goes to hell. You can say "Oooh that guy was so bad, he must be going to hell!" but you don't know that. God decides on that. Humans cannot understand god, and we can't decide for him.
    But is the Bible not essentially God's rule book? A learning tool and a benchmark by which human actions are able to be judged as coinciding or against God's will, so we would be able to live correctly according to his will? That those who disrespect and insult God go to hell (unless they have repented) is specified, and that suicide is an affront to God is specified.

    2: Maybe god destined them to jump off the building? Do you know what god intended for them? I think not...
    But do the Bible and the Catholic Church not specify that suicide is wrong? If, as both of these suggest, God disapproves of suicide, why would he intend for them to commit suicide? Why put them in such awful circumstances such that killing themselves appears to be the better option? Why make the apparently better option be one that is a violation of what is in the Bible? And what of God's omnibenevolence?

    No offense Xero, but don't talk about things you don't know about.
    By what you say, no one understands God's intentions. In which case, no one should say anything about any religion, ever. Which is all fine and good by me.

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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Kαitou View Post
    I understand where you're coming from, really. But there's people in this world who appreciate life a lot that had to pass on, and then we have clowns who think they have it worse and just ends their lives. That's unfair too.
    I also believe people who commit suicide are weak. We complain and wallow in self-pity so much that it becomes a way of life. It goes along with the whole "FML" mentality that's so trendy nowadays.

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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    I'll just leave these here, rather than edit my other post.

    http://news.yahoo.com/final-survivor...s-of-9-11.html

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...es-768086.html

    Sometimes, that .001% chance is all it takes.

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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Kαitou View Post
    Yes, in cases like in the latter, it's acceptable, in far that individual deserves some respect..maybe I should've specified more.

    But I don't really find the first acceptable. Life is not a walk in the park, it has never been and it never will be. Also, it's not about being worthless or not, it's about learning to move on or confronting whatever is before you-- even if you're awfully depressed, suicide is still not the "best" option.
    Clinical depression (unlike the colloquial use of the term) is a mental illness. It distorts your perspectives and prevents rational thought. The problem these people are having isn't that they're not confronting a problem or not moving on from something. It's exceptionally rare to commit suicide for reasons like that, even though it may trigger a depression which eventually leads to suicide.

    Mental illness is physical illness of the brain. It's not just a mood or a fixed idea. For the same reasons you don't mock people with a broken leg for being lazy, it's incredibly ignorant to call suicidal people cowards.

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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Gjallarhorn View Post
    *Defensive stuff*

    I'm not in the mood to have a religion battle atm, let's just keep it at:

    You don't know if they're going to hell. Not you, not me, not some hyper intelligent professor, only God.
    Using the bible as an arguement is invalid. I don't take the bible litterally, and even the bible is wriiten by humans.
    And then there's the differense between the old and the new testament, but I'm not gonna explain that to you. Please do your research or visit church if you want to know more.



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  19. #40
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide


    I think in a situation like that you tend to do things you never dreamt of ever doing. I also think that the people that jumped, or some of them, perhaps jumped because there was a chance that they wouldn't die of the tower that would fall on top of them but that they jumped because they were afraid of beings smashed by the untop floors and facing a slow death by being... stuck between concreat on stuff. Little unsure about the language here but I think you know what I mean. So rather facing an slowly and painful death they chosed to take the fast one where they wouldn't feel anything like that. Im not sure what I would've done in that situation but honestly, it's not impossible that I would've done the same as them. I hope that I will never have to take a decision like that.
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  20. #41
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Meh, the Buddhists don't start many holy wars or advocate stoning gays so i kinda figured they were less of a hypocritical religion than the others.

  21. #42
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Eris View Post
    Clinical depression (unlike the colloquial use of the term) is a mental illness. It distorts your perspectives and prevents rational thought. The problem these people are having isn't that they're not confronting a problem or not moving on from something. It's exceptionally rare to commit suicide for reasons like that, even though it may trigger a depression which eventually leads to suicide.

    Mental illness is physical illness of the brain. It's not just a mood or a fixed idea. For the same reasons you don't mock people with a broken leg for being lazy, it's incredibly ignorant to call suicidal people cowards.
    So it's perfectly normal if I grab a gun and shoot myself just because my girlfriend dumped me?

    If you were referring to the video I posted about the broken leg, I never called the guy lazy, in fact I admire him for confronting all his obstacles and actually not giving up on life.

    A lot of mentality stable individuals had these thoughts as well, of just giving up in life. You're right about you're saying but you said that what I said is wrong in every scenario, which is wrong.

    You giving up in life for a stupid reason makes you coward.


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  22. #43
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Kαitou View Post
    So it's perfectly normal if I grab a gun and shoot myself just because my girlfriend dumped me?
    That's type of event is exceedingly rare as a cause for suicide. If it is, then the event most of the time acts as a trigger for depression which ends in suicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kαitou View Post
    If you were referring to the video I posted about the broken leg, I never called the guy lazy, in fact I admire him for confronting all his obstacles and actually not giving up on life.
    I wasn't referring to any video. I was just making an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kαitou View Post
    A lot of mentality stable individuals had these thoughts as well, of just giving up in life. You're right about you're saying but you said that what I said is wrong in every scenario, which is wrong.
    You can be quite stable and still suffer from depression, heck most people suffer a bout of depression at least once in their life. And contemplating suicide is not something healthy people do. It's symptomatic of (and strongly correlated with) depression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kαitou View Post
    You giving up in life for a stupid reason makes you coward.
    No, it makes you irrational.

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  24. #44
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Gjallarhorn View Post
    But is the Bible not essentially God's rule book?
    maybe, but the church doesn't even follow it's own rules sometimes. so if the church is allowed to bend/break the rules.....why can't the average joe??

    example:
    Thou shall not kill. and it's not just some little rule, it's a big one. one of the top 10.
    however the church has killed MANY in the past, and supports killing nowadays by giving their blessing to certain wars.

    i'm not trying to get into a huge religious debate. i'm just trying to point out that even the church/pope doesn't look at every rule in the book as 100% black or white.
    you simply can't say "well they jumped, so it was suicide".....it's just not that black and white under the circumstances.
    Last edited by Gauntlgrym; 09-13-2011 at 11:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Those people jumping from the WTC 9/11 attack... It's not suicide... some people may even call Leap of Faith..... but when "Death" looks at you straight in the eye and there is only 1 in centillion chances that you will survive.... you will definitely seize that "1" chance..... it's the human nature...

    I'm a Catholic too... so in my point of view jumping from that building is not suicide it's entrusting everything to God no matter what happens....

    plus.... you and me nor the people who wasn't even there when that terrible event happened can judged those people who jump from those two buildings because simply we are "lucky" enough not to be there and experienced it.....
    Last edited by sabishii1/2; 09-14-2011 at 04:37 AM.

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  27. #46
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    No matter how impossible the situation may be there is always a way out of it without killing yourself, had the towers been properly evacuated rather than told to remain where they were then alot more people could have been saved and had people in the nearby area moved out of the way then things could have gone alot smoother but lets face it whenever theres been an accident on the road people will immediately slow down and gawp at the accident as they pass by therefor slowing down the response time of the emergency vehicles.

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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by aether View Post
    No matter how impossible the situation may be there is always a way out of it without killing yourself, had the towers been properly evacuated rather than told to remain where they were then alot more people could have been saved and had people in the nearby area moved out of the way then things could have gone alot smoother but lets face it whenever theres been an accident on the road people will immediately slow down and gawp at the accident as they pass by therefor slowing down the response time of the emergency vehicles.

    It was sudden... It was a surprise.... that's why it caused so much panic... the essence of terrorism.. truth be told many Americans before the 9/11 believe that it's IMPOSSIBLE that a terrorist group can strike that kind of blow in American soil....

  29. #48
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    And that just proves to you that the US isn't invincible, no country is.
    To be honest buildings of that sheer size and magnitude should have had proceedurs in place just in case of that event happening. Yes I am quite aware it was a supprise and sudden attack but in Japan they have regular earthquake drills so they know what to do in such a case. It just shows you if a country becomes content with itself viewing itself as the supreme power that they're more prone to attack than other countries are due to the idea that they are immune and therefor can lax their guard.
    If anything if you are the superpower of the world then you must keep on your toes at all time and be on the look out 24 / 7 because with that position of power comes much hatred towards you due to other countries viewing themself as more worthy of the position.

  30. #49
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlgrym View Post
    maybe, but the church doesn't even follow it's own rules sometimes. so if the church is allowed to bend/break the rules.....why can't the average joe??

    example:
    Thou shall not kill. and it's not just some little rule, it's a big one. one of the top 10.
    however the church has killed MANY in the past, and supports killing nowadays by giving their blessing to certain wars.
    That's because the Bible also says to kill people under specific circumstances.

    Anyways, the piously correct thing to do here is neither to commit suicide and jump nor patiently wait to burn to death; but instead is to pray for a miracle or forgiveness. Thus, you're all going to hell, tsk tsk. Surely we've all learned that Phone a Friend is the best lifeline to use in dire situations.



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  31. #50
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    Default Re: Question on Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Cantelope View Post
    Anyways, the piously correct thing to do here is neither to commit suicide and jump nor patiently wait to burn to death; but instead is to pray for a miracle or forgiveness. Thus, you're all going to hell, tsk tsk.
    If St. Peter and God and heaven / hell excist then I think they would want you to do as Cobra Commander said before.

    That v
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Commander View Post
    Catholicism forbids suicide, sure. But I would argue that doing nothing and burning to death would also be suicide in that instance. I'm going to go out on a limb here and stereotype a little - when you die, you go see St. Peter at the gates of Heaven. I don't care if that's wrong, it's just to make a point. At that time, your life will be judged. Surely you will have a chance to make your case.

    Burning to death would be suicidal, though if you attempted to run through the flames, there would have been a chance you could make it out. Therefore, not suicide. Jumping from the window or roof would also be suicidal, but there's a chance that you could miraculouly survive the fall, or perhaps grab onto the landing gear of a nearby helicopter, as if you were, perhaps, Bruce Willis. Therefore, not suicide.

    ---


    Or I don't know. This suicide question is so hard since I have never been in a situation like that... But as I said before: I understand if people chosed to jump to a quick death rather then facing a slow and painful death. They are not to be judged for that, I don't think so anyway. It's just all so sad, what happened.
    Last edited by SuXrys; 09-15-2011 at 07:47 PM.
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