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Thread: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

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    Default More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    During the GOP nomination forum, Bachmann answers some questions on today's "pressing issues".

    (CNN) - Painting herself as a "constitutional conservative" Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann told Sen. Jim DeMint's forum Monday that if elected president she would look to get rid of the Department of Education, among other things.
    "Because the Constitution does not specifically enumerate nor does it give to the federal government the role and duty to superintend over education that historically has been held by the parents and by local communities and by state governments," she said, responding to a question by DeMint, a popular figure among the tea party movement.

    Another item on the chopping block: The Affordable Care Act.
    People "see that the current government is acting outside the bounds of the constitution. Probably the most obvious would be this, Obamacare and the individual mandate that is unconstitutional and is currently contained in Obamacare," she said.
    Throughout the question and answer, Bachmann highlighted her understanding of the Constitution and the need to return to a limited federal government.
    "And when I'm working with the Congress of the United States, my guiding principle will be that the government works best when it acts within the limitations of the Constitution," she said. "The current president of the United States has failed to demonstrate an understanding."
    When asked about her jobs program, Bachmann pointed to her past as a tax litigation attorney and small business owner.
    "(I) believe in profit and actually believe profit is a good thing and that we should encourage that in this country," she said. Bachmann called for a restructuring of tax rates for businesses highlighting her experience in that area.
    When asked if she would try and overturn Roe v. Wade, which gives women the right to an abortion, Bachmann said she would put forth a human life amendment and do everything in her power to restrict abortions.

    article: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...-of-education/

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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    Yeah, she's infinitely more credible and courageous than Obama just on the fact that she is straight forward with what her platform is, so that you can agree or disagree with it. This is unlike the snob Obama who always tries to hide his positions behind rhetoric that is too inconsequential to debate. He talks to Americans like they're a class of elementary school children.

    Also, you can stick your scare quotes right back up the very anus out of which they came. Where is Bachman selling herself as some wise sage? It is wrong for a politician to state their positions? Are they just supposed to just cough out platitudes and other politically correct nonsense like Obama does?

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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Are they just supposed to just cough out platitudes and other politically correct nonsense like Obama does?
    Yup.


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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    Well I disagree with her on most of her views, politics aside, I do like her as a candidate.
    Like Wio said, she's got a strong backbone, unlike Obama, who's come off as being too willy-nilly to me.
    This is gonna be another horrible election cycle for me, since I want to vote Democrat but Obama is a huge turnoff to me.

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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    She's nuts but I do agree at least she's straight forward. And as far as I'm concerned, Obama isn't a Democrat. That or someone removed his backbone at birth.

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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    Hmm. I wasn't planning on voting for her anyway, but I don't think she's a good candidate. There's plenty of stupidity to go around though, especially coming from the sitting administration.

    There's SOME wisdom in there though, because she's right about the Constitution - it doesn't offer the power to create an entity like Dept. of Ed or EPA, etc. I wouldn't destroy the Dept. of Ed, but I'd gut a lot of it if I was able. Anyway, the unsaid point is that the states are supposed to have the power to manage their own affairs regarding anything not specifically delegated to the Feds. However, if she made the state's rights argument, she's probably be subjected to the usual allegations of redneckism, bigotry, and rebel flag flying.

    But she's also an idiot for promising $2/gal gas.

    The very concept of state's rights that she silently appeals to in the beginning, she tramples on in the end. It wouldn't be proper for the Feds to support or condemn abortion.

    Also...while Obamacare is an insult to America, and I oppose socializing anything...a single payer system would be less of an affront than mandated buying of insurance. I'm not buying something that I don't want to buy, and the gov't can't make me. Sure they can use force and violence against me, but I can also do those things to them. I think the quality of our healthcare system would go way down if we went to Euro-style healthcare. But I also think healthcare is a racket, and avoid it as much as I can.


    The problems that plague this country are not going to be fixed by party politics. Re-electing Obama won't solve anything. Electing a Republican won't, either. It's far too late for that. The parties we have are two cheeks on the same donkey, and they're both full of crap. They both do one thing - consolidate power in the hands of the elite, and the corporations. You Obama voters can dispute this all you want, but the fact is that GE and Jeffrey Immelt have both prospered greatly and sold Americans out under Obama's approval. And they get kickbacks from the gov't.

    These idiots all ride the same gravy train, and they're riding it off of a cliff.

    All I can say is good riddance - it'll crash eventually.
    Last edited by Cobra Commander; 09-06-2011 at 01:47 AM.

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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Yeah, she's infinitely more credible and courageous than Obama just on the fact that she is straight forward with what her platform is, so that you can agree or disagree with it.
    While Michele Bachmann has been rather straightforward with SOME of her platforms (which is more than I what I can say about Barack Obama; I did vote for him, yes, but his actions so far have left a lot to be desired), she has been notoriously difficult on others, which has honestly been a problem (and why she kinda sucks as a candidate).

    There are barely any positions that she stands for that she hasn't flip-flopped on. For example, ever since she popped up, she has been a strong advocate of following the Constitution literally, to keep the government within the limits of the Constitution. Okay, that seems clear; I don't really like it, but it's straightforward.

    However, just like in the article, she keeps bringing up new acts for the government to implement. She wants the government to operate within the limits of the Constitution, but also supports federal and state constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage (and any other alternatives, such as "civil unions") and restrict abortions (hell, she claims to be 100% pro-life, so she might outlaw them altogether).

    So while I utterly hate this woman, I wish she was much more upfront about her beliefs. Even this Department of Education thing has ulterior motives behind it. I would have much more "respect" for her if she just came out and said what she believed in.
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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    I honestly loathe today's politics. I agree with bits and pieces from just about everyone, but I hate how each candidate carries a "party package" with them that they plan to shove down our throats once they get elected (congress willing). Just like when some people will do anything to win even a friendly competition, so will politicians do anything to win your vote (even if it means saying things that will not or cannot hold true once elected).

    Bachmann, for example, hates unnecessary federal control, but (as said before) she says that she would use the federal government to restrict (or potentially abolish) abortions and remove federal programs not because they are not effective or not efficient, but simply because they are federally controlled.


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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    However, just like in the article, she keeps bringing up new acts for the government to implement. She wants the government to operate within the limits of the Constitution, but also supports federal and state constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage (and any other alternatives, such as "civil unions") and restrict abortions (hell, she claims to be 100% pro-life, so she might outlaw them altogether).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kusuke View Post
    Bachmann, for example, hates unnecessary federal control, but (as said before) she says that she would use the federal government to restrict (or potentially abolish) abortions and remove federal programs not because they are not effective or not efficient, but simply because they are federally controlled.
    There is no contradiction or lack of transparency here. The constitution literally allows you to amend it. Many federal programs are not constitutional or an amendment or backed under some amendment.

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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    There is no contradiction or lack of transparency here. The constitution literally allows you to amend it. Many federal programs are not constitutional or an amendment or backed under some amendment.
    I'm not saying that one can't change what's in the Constitution. However, Bachmann says that the government is currently overstepping its boundaries while at the same time supports an amendment to ban gay marriages and civil unions. Sure, some federal programs aren't backed by an amendment, but that doesn't mean she should use that as an excuse, while at the same time be an advocate for following the Constitution literally and keeping the government within its limits.

    It's rather off to insist that the government is overreaching with Obamacare in yet support something that would allow the government to further step into the realms of marriage and negate certain state rights (even worse, just like her other positions, her reasons for banning gay marriage aren't all that clear; they range from simple religious beliefs to classifying anything other than heterosexuality as a "sexual dysfunction" that must be "cured").
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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    There is no contradiction or lack of transparency here. The constitution literally allows you to amend it. Many federal programs are not constitutional or an amendment or backed under some amendment.
    You are correct that there is no direct contradiction to what she says. However, she isn't saying that federal government was wrong, only that the government was not doing it constitutionally. For example, she want's the DoE's duties to be spread to the states so that most of the decisions are state-side. She was not saying that what the DoE was doing was completely wrong, only that it was unconstitutional to federally regulate education.

    She says that she wants the federal government to loosen up control and abide by the constitution, but her way around her own words is to amend the constitution itself to decide you can only marry heterosexually and what you can view on the internet. It's roundabout but she's using this to satisfy both the constitutional fanatics and her own party. Now I know that there is no rule against amending the constitution, but she is wanting to give the federal government too much control over what we are allowed to do; so she is using the constitution to do exactly what she is trying to stop -- excessive federal control.
    Last edited by Kusuke; 09-07-2011 at 12:02 AM.


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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught on to her nonsense.

    Romney is the same. Perry is probably the same. Better than Obama? IMO, absolutely, but I'd vote for a gorilla in a cowboy hat and high heels before I'd vote for him.

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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 View Post
    It's rather off to insist that the government is overreaching with Obamacare in yet support something that would allow the government to further step into the realms of marriage and negate certain state rights (even worse, just like her other positions, her reasons for banning gay marriage aren't all that clear; they range from simple religious beliefs to classifying anything other than heterosexuality as a "sexual dysfunction" that must be "cured").
    Look, you can disagree with her platform all you want. I'm not that interested in her as a candidate myself. However you can't go on to say she has flip-flopped when she only had one position remained the same. You can't say things like "I wish she was much more upfront about her beliefs" while arguing against those beliefs she has been upfront about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusuke View Post
    Now I know that there is no rule against amending the constitution, but she is wanting to give the federal government too much control over what we are allowed to do; so she is using the constitution to do exactly what she is trying to stop -- excessive federal control.
    For the love of integrity, stop trying to make this into some logical error when it clearly isn't. If she doesn't think that having the federal government define marriage and when the legal right to life begins to be excessive, then having the federal government do these thing does not contradict her stance against excessive federal government. It would be impossible for her to be consistent with everyone's belief on what is or isn't excessive and what is or isn't necessary.

    If I were to say "I only talk to short people" and then talked to Jack, whom I thought was short and you thought was not short, am I contradicting my statement?
    Last edited by Wio; 09-07-2011 at 01:07 AM.

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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    Look, you can disagree with her platform all you want. I'm not that interested in her as a candidate myself. However you can't go on to say she has flip-flopped when she only had one position remained the same. You can't say things like "I wish she was much more upfront about her beliefs" while arguing against those beliefs she has been upfront about.
    I only gave one example (hence my use of the phrase "for example"). I could go on and on about her going back and forth with her beliefs (e.g. battling federal home loan programs, but then getting a federal home loan herself; her hatred for the EPA but soliciting funds from the EPA for her constituents; opposed Governor Pawlenty's proposal to increase cigarette taxes...but then randomly changed her mind for no real reason), but I only picked the one (but now you know others, so...).

    Again, my issue with her is honestly not what she believes in or what she wants to do; at the end of the day, I honestly don't care (I'm not going to vote for her no matter what she does). However, if she is against homosexuals getting married, if she thinks that it's an "abomination", then she should just say it. If she wants to get rid of the Department of Education to ensure that kids learn about intelligent design in schools (because that's what this is really all about; she's been whining about it for years), then she should just come out and say it.

    I already don't like her positions. But she could have a little bit of my respect if she could just say what she wanted to say instead of taking the Obama route and testing different rhetoric to see if it works. I may not like what she has to say but she could at least say her beliefs with some confidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wio View Post
    For the love of integrity, stop trying to make this into some logical error when it clearly isn't. If she doesn't think that having the federal government define marriage and when the legal right to life begins to be excessive, then having the federal government do these thing does not contradict her stance against excessive federal government. It would be impossible for her to be consistent with everyone's belief on what is or isn't excessive and what is or isn't necessary.

    If I were to say "I only talk to short people" and then talked to Jack, whom I thought was short and you thought was not short, am I contradicting my statement?
    If we are going by a subjective height, then, not really. Of course, this subjectivity is precisely what would get you in trouble in the first place. You wouldn't necessarily contradicting yourself, but I would be questioning you as to why you would be talking to Jack, since I think he is short (which is why I would THINK that you were contradicting yourself). Is there a personal height limit that you have set? Is Jack your friend? A family member? If you talk to some short people, why not just say that instead of giving an absolute statement?

    Bachmann is kinda the same way. If she apparently has certain standards about what constitutes excessive federal entanglement, if there is a line that shouldn't be crossed, she would be better off stating it than saying that the government should be strictly limited by the powers of the Constitution but then turn around and support governmental actions OBVIOUSLY not covered in the Constitution (the Constitution doesn't say anything more about marriage and abortion than it does about education standards).

    The very fact that there are other federal programs and institutions not necessarily supported by the Constitution means that Bachmann needs to be more clear about what she is trying to do, not use that loophole for her expense. If there are exceptions to the "follow the Constitution literally" rule (and there would have to be in order for any of this to make any bloody sense), she should state them. Otherwise, she is certainly contradicting herself.
    Last edited by wolfgirl90; 09-09-2011 at 03:53 PM.
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    Default Re: More "wisdom" comes from Michele Bachmann

    @wolfgirl90
    It seems to me that you clearly understand what her positions, and I'm willing to bet that it's because she's been very transparent about them. What you're grumbling about isn't really so much transparency but more like hypocrisy and a failure to meet your projections on her.


    I only gave one example (hence my use of the phrase "for example"). I could go on and on about her going back and forth with her beliefs (e.g. battling federal home loan programs, but then getting a federal home loan herself; her hatred for the EPA but soliciting funds from the EPA for her constituents; opposed Governor Pawlenty's proposal to increase cigarette taxes...but then randomly changed her mind for no real reason), but I only picked the one (but now you know others, so...).
    She is a hypocrite only in the colloquial sense because she criticizes programs and institutions from which she benefits. Imagine if we were to play Monopoly and I argued that I don't think we should collect 200 when we pass go; however, throughout the game I had collected 200 and continued to collect 200 even after having stated my opinion. I'm obviously a hypocrite in the colloquial sense of the word, yet I am not a hypocrite in the true sense of the word because my belief is quite clear and has not changed.

    I'd also like to note that it is unfair to subject someone to the rules of a system and then tell them that they are a hypocrite for trying to change the rules while playing by said rules. It'd be unfair that I not collect 200 if we establish those rules, despite my wanting to change them. It'd be unfair to make Warren Buffet pay the tax rates he thinks the rich should pay while making the remaining rich pay the lower rates. It'd be unfair to say Bachmann can't benefit from programs she wants to eliminate before they are eliminated while her constituents have to pay for them anyway.

    Again, my issue with her is honestly not what she believes in or what she wants to do; at the end of the day, I honestly don't care (I'm not going to vote for her no matter what she does). However, if she is against homosexuals getting married, if she thinks that it's an "abomination", then she should just say it. If she wants to get rid of the Department of Education to ensure that kids learn about intelligent design in schools (because that's what this is really all about; she's been whining about it for years), then she should just come out and say it.
    This is just your projection. You want her to say something unpopular like "I hate homosexuals", because it is beyond you to believe she could think otherwise. I'm not going to go into discussions second guessing what Bachmann really thinks (because we all know she doesn't think what she says, right? (because she doesn't say what she thinks (because she doesn't think what she says (because she doesn't... ...)))) So I'll stop there.

    The very fact that there are other federal programs and institutions not necessarily supported by the Constitution means that Bachmann needs to be more clear about what she is trying to do, not use that loophole for her expense. If there are exceptions to the "follow the Constitution literally" rule (and there would have to be in order for any of this to make any bloody sense), she should state them. Otherwise, she is certainly contradicting herself.
    This sounds nice and all, but there is this thing called publicity, and she only gets so much of it and must allocate it to sell her entire platform. She could spend hours going through the constitution line by line and discussing why such and such bills unconstitutional, but the only people who might actually care that much are just people like you looking for any dirt.


    Edit: Anyway, I'm sure she has had some inconsistencies here and there like most politicians have. However she's pretty up front about what her positions are as far as politicians go. Putting her on Obama's level of opaqueness is a hyperbole.
    Last edited by Wio; 09-09-2011 at 08:16 PM.

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