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Thread: Archaic/Obsolete Terms and Two Other Things :3

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    Default Archaic/Obsolete Terms and Two Other Things :3

    First of all, I stumbled across this Japanese poem yesterday by a guy called "Haruo Satou".
    I noticed some very interesting features in it, namely some of these old terms and obsolete usages such as "we" (). I had known of that one and a few others before, but not all of it. Does anyone know any more of these? *has just developed an interest for them*. As for the poem, it's very pretty, isn't it?^^ I typed it up, so here it is:

    少年の日 - 佐藤春夫

    野ゆき山ゆき海辺ゆき
    真ひるの丘べ花を敷き
    つぶら瞳の君ゆゑ(え)に
    うれひ(い)は青し空よりも。

    影おほ(お)き林をたどり
    夢ふかきみ瞳を恋ひ(い)
    あたたかき真昼の丘べ
    花を敷き、あは(わ)れ若き日。

    君が瞳はつぶらにて
    君が心は知りがたし。
    君をはなれて唯ひとり
    月夜の海に石を投ぐ。

    君は夜な夜な毛糸編む
    銀の編み棒に編む糸は
    かぐろなる糸あかき糸
    そのラム(ン)プ敷き誰がものぞ。



    Now, I also wanted to translate something yesterday, but I had no idea as to how to go about it.
    The phrase was "follow my feet back (to the place I came)". Now, I can't think of any equivilent for "follow my feet back". You could simply put "go back", but that gives a different meaning.

    Frankly speaking, the phrase "follow my/your feet" is not really used anymore in modern language. To "follow your feet" basically means to me to go back along a path that you are very familiar with or even use your memory to trace your way back somewhere. Simply putting "go back" doesn't give that feeling. Does anyone have any suggestions (by anyone I probably should say "animeyay" since he's most likely to be jumping into this!XD)?

    Also, I'm wanting to make a name for a new character. I want her name to mean "the flower amongst the thorns". Any reading suggestions? I've tried and I fail xp. It's also okay if the name is broken up over two names like Ibara Something.

    Thankyous for helps!!!! ^^

    Currently listening to: Gin'iro Konpeitou Gakudan (Yura Hatsuki x Konori)'s "Gentou PAREEDO ~phantasm parade~"
    Currently playing: Breath of Fire III on PSP
    Currently watching: Kuroshitsuji


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    Default Re: Archaic/Obsolete Terms and Two Other Things :3

    Whoa, another archaic Japanese thread? I gave Akkun a whole lecture on classical Japanese in a thread of his just last month. I took a class in classical Japanese in college, so I get easily carried away when I talk about it. You have been warned... XD j/k!

    Those old kana usages are referred to as
    歴史的仮名遣い (historical kana spelling). It's a remnant feature of classical Japanese that was eventually abolished during the modern kana spelling reform. You want more examples?

    historical
    → modern :
    故() →
    公園(こうむ) → こう
    * all modern used to be written

    historical → modern :
    居()る →
    委員(ゐゐむ) → いい

    historical ひ, ふ, へ, → modern い, う, え, , respectively, but this one doesnít occur in every word:
    () → () *some kanji were also simplified
    思(おも)
    前() →
    多()き →

    historical → modern , unless when it's in the word-initial position or used as the topic-marker, then it'll remain as は:
    れ →
    庭() →

    historical → modern , unless when it's used as the object-marker, then it'll remain as を:
    男(とこ) → とこ
    青() →

    historical
    , → modern , , except in very special cases:
    藤() →
    水() →

    Also, all half-sized kana today used to be written full-sized:
    客() →
    三日() →

    But all these are just very basic changes, since you just substitute one kana with another. Some changes, on the other hand, are not so simple and clear-cut, as they involve any combination of sound change, sound merging, and kana substitution:

    今日(けふ) → けう→ きょう
    中華(ちゆうくわ) → ちゅうくゎ → ちゅうか
    であらむ → であらう → だらう → だろう
    These are quite unpredictable, so I say steer clear of them.

    I said I wouldn't write you a book, and look what I did! ^^; However, all that is just old spelling, just the tip of the iceberg. There are also old particles (e.g.
    が used for possessive like の), old grammar structures, old words, etc., so you might wanna look into classical Japanese if you're eager to encounter more archaic forms. I still remember the first line of the first classical literature I read in class, from Ise Monogatari:
    むかし、をとこありけり。→ 昔、ある男がいました。


    Now, for the "follow my feet" question... I'm not sure if I'm 100% clear, but are you translating from English to Japanese? Also, I've never, NEVER, heard of this phrase before, though I have no problem understanding what it means. Anyway, how about substituting "feet" with "footprints"? Something like: 私の残した足跡を辿って帰りなさい。


    As for the name, "
    the flower amongst the thorns", I can think of several viable options. But yea, you probably need to break it down into two names...
    Family name: 茨中(いばらか),
    茨上(しかみ), 茨垣(いばらき)
    First name: 花(はな), 一花(かずか), 孤花(こばな), 唯花(ゆいか)
    *花 can be freely substituted with 華

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    Default Re: Archaic/Obsolete Terms and Two Other Things :3

    Wow, I am very impressed! =D I think I'm more impressed by the fact that I undertood all that though!XD I guess that explains some things I'd seen in the past that confused me a little, like I remember seeing kioku written like kiwoku ;p
    Thanks for that useful informations^^

    And yes, it's from English to Japanese. I suppose you wouldn't have: as I said, it's a very old term. You may be an expert on ancient Japanese, but I know a lot of Ancient English (I'm even studying Anglo Saxon)! XD I suppose that might work. It's so simple when you think about it^^ The only thing is, do you think a Japanese person reading that line would take it the same way it is in English?

    Ah, that could work well :3 And yeah, I figured you'd have to. I think those are some interesting variations ^^
    And I forgot about 茨 =0 I only thought of 棘 or 刺.

    Currently listening to: Gin'iro Konpeitou Gakudan (Yura Hatsuki x Konori)'s "Gentou PAREEDO ~phantasm parade~"
    Currently playing: Breath of Fire III on PSP
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    Default Re: Archaic/Obsolete Terms and Two Other Things :3

    Anglo-Saxon?? As in Old English? O.O; Whoa, that's gotta be interesting (if not also hard). I remember in high school once my English teacher made us read an excerpt of Middle English, and that was already painful enough....(still can't get myself to say "knight" kuh-ni-g-t right XD).

    There's only one way to interpret that line: "Go back, following my footprints." BUT NOW, rereading your post, I just realized the subject of what you were trying to say is "I" not "you"... Oops! (So yea, not 帰りなさい then, ehe.) If you want to make it more clear, just add more words: もと来た道の自分の足跡を辿って帰る. OR, since the subject is actually "I" now, just a simple もと来た道を引き返す could probably work, too.

    Yea, 茨 is a better kanji choice I think, since it's got the kusa-kanmuri ("grass" radical) on its top, emphasizing the fact it's a type of plant. 棘 and 刺 are more often pronounced toge, and they are more like splinters than thorns, lol. See how you can still see the ki-hen ("wood" radical) in them?

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    Default Re: Archaic/Obsolete Terms and Two Other Things :3

    Yes, Anglo Saxon :3 It is very interesting and luckily not that hard. You want a hard language? Try studying Irish Gaelic! @_@ I'll learn it one day! <.<
    Well, I've practiced many different kinds of vowels and pronunciations, so I'm getting there ;p If I didn't say, I'm actually making up my own language for one of my stories.

    Okay then, thanks for that :3 Oh, by the way, the explanation I gave for "follow my/your feet" was true, but it only gave one meaning which releated to what I wrote. The more common meaning of it is to simply "go where your feet take you". ^^

    Yeah, I know ;p That was all I could think of at the time though!XD *hits head* Oh well. I do like 茨 better for some reason though Don't know why.
    I think I like Yuika Ibaraki/Ibaraka by the way :3 *haven't decided which works better yet*. She's an iteresting character....

    Currently listening to: Gin'iro Konpeitou Gakudan (Yura Hatsuki x Konori)'s "Gentou PAREEDO ~phantasm parade~"
    Currently playing: Breath of Fire III on PSP
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