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Thread: God vs Science

  1. #1
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    Default God vs Science

    Well, this post is inspired by a debate in chat....



    "Let me explain the problem science has with religion."

    The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

    'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

    'Yes sir,' the student says.

    'So you believe in God?'

    ‘Absolutely’

    'Is God good?'

    'Sure! God's good.'

    'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

    'Yes'

    'Are you good or evil?'

    'The Bible says I'm evil.'

    The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

    'Yes sir, I would.'

    'So you're good...!'

    'I wouldn't say that.'

    'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

    The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even
    though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

    The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to
    give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

    'Err yes,' the student says.

    'Is Satan good?'

    The student doesn't hesitate on this one.. 'No.'

    'Then where does Satan come from?'

    The student falters. 'From God'

    'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

    'Yes, sir.'

    'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

    'Yes'

    'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'

    Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

    The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

    'So who created them ?'

    The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

    The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

    The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

    'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

    'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

    'No, sir, I have not.'

    'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

    'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

    'Yet you still believe in him?'

    'Yes'

    'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist... What do you say to that, son?'

    'Nothing,' the student replies.. 'I only have my faith.'

    'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

    The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat? '

    ' Yes.

    'And is there such a thing as cold?'

    'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

    'No sir, there isn't.'

    The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy.. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

    Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

    'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

    'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

    'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright
    light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

    The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

    'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

    The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

    'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains.. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good
    God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It
    uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now
    tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

    'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

    'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

    The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

    'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

    The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided. 'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so.. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' 'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

    Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity,
    the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

    'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?' Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

    To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

    The professor sat down.

    If you read it all the way through and had a smile on your face when you finished, mail to your friends and family with the title 'God vs. Science'

    PS: The student was Albert Einstein.

    Albert Einstein wrote a book titled 'God vs. Science' in 1921

  2. #2
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    tl;dr


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  3. #3
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Cool story bro.

    Also,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumoness View Post
    Albert Einstein wrote a book titled 'God vs. Science' in 1921
    No he didn't.
    Last edited by Eris; 02-07-2011 at 06:52 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Inspired by me of course. //5 Anyways you already have my opinion on this matter so I won't post anymore information on what I think of it. //6
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke has a reputation beyond repute Kusuke's Avatar
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    I've seen that before. It's quite an interesting read for philosophy... XD
    Last edited by Kusuke; 02-07-2011 at 07:00 PM.

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    Default Re: God vs Science

     

  7. #7
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Eh, Just C/P'd it from an email. Facts aside, the point is that god can't be proved or disproved.

  8. #8
    Senior Member galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco has a reputation beyond repute galaco's Avatar
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    If something can't be proved then it must be classified as false.
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    Default Re: God vs Science

     
    You said you weren't going to post anymore, Xey

  10. #10
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeyuzio View Post
    If something can't be proved then it must be classified as false.
    If there is no way of telling if something is true or false, then it doesn't matter if it's true or false, as it has no objective impact on reality.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    I lie, so do you and everybody else in the world...

    @Eris, I guess this can be considered an argument of ignorance.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeyuzio View Post
    I@Eris, I guess this can be considered an argument of ignorance.
    Not at all. If something has an impact on the world, it's existence can be tested. This is equivalent to saying that if something can not be tested, it has no impact on the world, and it's existence doesn't matter.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    tl ; dr, but I'll offer my two cents. (Assuming this doesn't get closed.)

    The Christian god cannot exist. Allow me to explain why.

    Given: The Christian God is all-powerful.
    1. Assume the Christian God Exists
    2. God has a will for the world. (The Bible)
    3. We have a reference for God's will. (The Bible)
    4. God does not desire people to commit adultery. (The Bible)
    5. People still commit adultery. (Obviously)
    * But if god is all-powerful, why does that which contradicts his will exist?

    One may argue that god allows free-will and therefore humans occasionally go against the will of god, however, the choices humans make out of their "free will" is really the sum of their predilections, their environment, and their conditioning. God controls everything. Think of chaos theory, except that an all-powerful individual is capable of controlling every tiny variable that yields results. Imagine that you've just constructed a sink and a woven a sweater. You, having created them, know their properties perfectly. So you place the sweater under the sink and turn it on. The shirt gets wet and you blame the shirt. Despite the fact that you set up all conditions under which the event would happen. Claiming that free will accounts for the real-world contradicting the will of an all-powerful being is frankly ridiculous.

    There's also no reason to believe a deist god exists. Saying that a deist god had just as much intellectual worth as claiming that there's an invisible, intangible flying elephant behind me.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by under the rain View Post
    tl ; dr, but I'll offer my two cents. (Assuming this doesn't get closed.)

    The Christian god cannot exist. Allow me to explain why.

    Given: The Christian God is all-powerful.
    1. Assume the Christian God Exists
    2. God has a will for the world. (The Bible)
    3. We have a reference for God's will. (The Bible)
    4. God does not desire people to commit adultery. (The Bible)
    5. People still commit adultery. (Obviously)
    * But if god is all-powerful, why does that which contradicts his will exist?

    One may argue that god allows free-will and therefore humans occasionally go against the will of god, however, the choices humans make out of their "free will" is really the sum of their predilections, their environment, and their conditioning. God controls everything. Think of chaos theory, except that an all-powerful individual is capable of controlling every tiny variable that yields results. Imagine that you've just constructed a sink and a woven a sweater. You, having created them, know their properties perfectly. So you place the sweater under the sink and turn it on. The shirt gets wet and you blame the shirt. Despite the fact that you set up all conditions under which the event would happen. Claiming that free will accounts for the real-world contradicting the will of an all-powerful being is frankly ridiculous.

    There's also no reason to believe a deist god exists. Saying that a deist god had just as much intellectual worth as claiming that there's an invisible, intangible flying elephant behind me.
    Premise #3 (and therefore also #4) is a seriously weak link in this argument. The god described in the bible can exist without the bible necessarily being correct. The same way this book doesn't disprove that Abraham Lincoln was a non-fictional figure.

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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumoness View Post
    Eh, Just C/P'd it from an email. Facts aside, the point is that god can't be proved or disproved.
    You heard it here folks! Case closed. No "vs" needed anymore.

     


    For those of you who won't settle for this, here's a video that stands as a better representation of Kumoness' case.

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    Default Re: God vs Science

    The flaw with your argument is that you're assuming that the Christian God is, in fact, all-powerful. Also, you could also mention the other aspects of the Judeo-Christian interpretation of God being all-knowing and all good. Of course, considering that God also created evil and/or allows evil to exist, this would lead to the conclusion that he is lacking at least one of these three qualities.

    However, most people who believe in God, be it the Jewish/Christian God, or the Muslim Allah - while disagreeing on certain aspects of the religions - appear to agree in a Creator deity, as do many other religions. This being said, Science says that the universe and everything in it was created in the Big Bang. However, as far as we know, nothing existed before the Big Bang. So what caused it, if nothing existed? For now, no one really knows. So God is as good a guess as any. It can't be proven. It can't be disproved. As far as scientific technology is concerned, it can't even be tested.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Premise #3 (and therefore also #4) is a seriously weak link in this argument. The god described in the bible can exist without the bible necessarily being correct. The same way this book doesn't disprove that Abraham Lincoln was a non-fictional figure.
    That wasn't the point I was trying to make. A problem that many people have with the problem of evil is that evil is not well-defined, so in this case I am defining evil as anything which contradicts the will of god which we can presumably find within the bible.

    The flaw with your argument is that you're assuming that the Christian God is, in fact, all-powerful. Also, you could also mention the other aspects of the Judeo-Christian interpretation of God being all-knowing and all good. Of course, considering that God also created evil and/or allows evil to exist, this would lead to the conclusion that he is lacking at least one of these three qualities.
    Well I'm pretty sure it's a central tenet of Christian religion that god is all-powerful. Not only that, but if I wanted to add the premise that god is all-knowing to my argument it would only bolster it.

    However, most people who believe in God, be it the Jewish/Christian God, or the Muslim Allah - while disagreeing on certain aspects of the religions - appear to agree in a Creator deity, as do many other religions. This being said, Science says that the universe and everything in it was created in the Big Bang. However, as far as we know, nothing existed before the Big Bang. So what caused it, if nothing existed? For now, no one really knows. So God is as good a guess as any. It can't be proven. It can't be disproved. As far as scientific technology is concerned, it can't even be tested.
    The origin of the universe is up for debate in the Scientific sector. But also, why is god any more feasible than a big-bang? Where did he come from? You could say that he existed infinitely, but if so, why is his existence any more feasible than that of the big bang or even an infinite universe? I think the idea of an infinite universe is highly more likely because we know the universe exists.

    Not only that, but your logic is seriously flawed. It's not right unless it's proven wrong, it's wrong until it's proven right. By the way, any god that possesses identifiable traits can be disproved. The only god that cannot be really disproved is a deist god, and I've made a case for why a deist god is an intellectually bankrupt idea above.
    Last edited by under the rain; 02-07-2011 at 08:12 PM.


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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumoness View Post
    The flaw with your argument is that you're assuming that the Christian God is, in fact, all-powerful. Also, you could also mention the other aspects of the Judeo-Christian interpretation of God being all-knowing and all good. Of course, considering that God also created evil and/or allows evil to exist, this would lead to the conclusion that he is lacking at least one of these three qualities.

    However, most people who believe in God, be it the Jewish/Christian God, or the Muslim Allah - while disagreeing on certain aspects of the religions - appear to agree in a Creator deity, as do many other religions. This being said, Science says that the universe and everything in it was created in the Big Bang. However, as far as we know, nothing existed before the Big Bang. So what caused it, if nothing existed? For now, no one really knows. So God is as good a guess as any. It can't be proven. It can't be disproved. As far as scientific technology is concerned, it can't even be tested.
    All of these things can't be proved--but you think God's actions can be? What's not to say the Bible is incomplete?
     

    That's a rhetorical question, of course. Any referral to the Vatican is obsolete because it is a man-made foundation that has no right to speak for the Bible or its texts.

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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumoness View Post
    So God is as good a guess as any. It can't be proven. It can't be disproved. As far as scientific technology is concerned, it can't even be tested.
    This is exactly how I personally feel on the matter.
    I just wanted to point out something - I notice some Athiests try to force their own logic on how a theoretical God would be based on their own human logic. Supposing, like a lot of religious adherents do, that God is omnipotent and people imperfect, there's no way people could think the same way God would (supposing he thinks at all and doesn't do something else entirely). Does that make sense?
    I can't concentrate too well as there's a bunch of hoons around.

    EDIT: No one knows a machine like it's creator.
    Last edited by Furore; 02-07-2011 at 08:16 PM.
    victoria aut mors

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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by under the rain View Post
    That wasn't the point I was trying to make. A problem that many people have with the problem of evil is that evil is not well-defined, so in this case I am defining evil as anything which contradicts the will of god which we can presumably find within the bible.


    Well I'm pretty sure it's a central tenet of Christian religion that god is all-powerful. Not only that, but if I wanted to add the premise that god is all-knowing to my argument it would only bolster it.
    I was actually agreeing with you there. I guess I should have clarified that.


    Quote Originally Posted by under the rain View Post
    The origin of the universe is up for debate in the Scientific sector. But also, why is god any more feasible than a big-bang? Where did he come from? You could say that he existed infinitely, but if so, why is his existence any more feasible than that of the big bang or even an infinite universe? I think the idea of an infinite universe is highly more likely because we know the universe exists.
    My point was a question of "what caused the Big Bang if nothing existed?" For every effect, there is a cause. This, of course leads to the idea that there is an un-caused First Cause, aka "God". However, as you have said, this is no more feasible than an infinite universe. One could argue though, that "infinity" is a concept that is truly beyond the limited scope of human perception. One could argue then that "Infinity" is akin to "God."


    Quote Originally Posted by under the rain View Post
    Not only that, but your logic is seriously flawed. It's not right unless it's proven wrong it's wrong until it's proven right. By the way, any god that possesses identifiable traits can be disproved. The only god that cannot be really disproved is a deist god, and I've made a case for why a deist god is an intellectually bankrupt idea above.
    Personally, I don't believe in a god as God is portrayed by the Church establishment. I can't attest to the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good entity, as such a being is truly beyond human comprehension. If such an entity DOES exist: Perhaps this entity chooses not to utilize its power, and (if the powerful-knowing-good premise is true) said entity mourns for humanity and all our sins, etc, etc. Of course, this choice of noninterference could then lead to the conclusion that this entity lacks one or more of the above-stated qualities. In which case, the problem lies in the presentation, rather than the existence of said god-entity.

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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Furore View Post
    This is exactly how I personally feel on the matter.
    I just wanted to point out something - I notice some Athiests try to force their own logic on how a theoretical God would be based on their own human logic. Supposing, like a lot of religious adherents do, that God is omnipotent and people imperfect, there's no way people could think the same way God would (supposing he thinks at all and doesn't do something else entirely). Does that make sense?
    I can't concentrate too well as there's a bunch of hoons around.

    EDIT: No one knows a machine like it's creator.
    That's... a huge cop out. Perhaps we lack full understanding of the universe, and therefore we haven't yet been able to identify with absolute certainty how the universe began. So again, something like the big bang or an infinite universe is more plausible than god because we know them to exist.

    My point was a question of "what caused the Big Bang if nothing existed?" For every effect, there is a cause. This, of course leads to the idea that there is an un-caused First Cause, aka "God". However, as you have said, this is no more feasible than an infinite universe. One could argue though, that "infinity" is a concept that is truly beyond the limited scope of human perception. One could argue then that "Infinity" is akin to "God."
    Well I guess if infinity is the same thing as god then nothing created the universe and god is a deist god. That's really a stupid argument.

    Personally, I don't believe in a god as God is portrayed by the Church establishment. I can't attest to the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good entity, as such a being is truly beyond human comprehension. If such an entity DOES exist: Perhaps this entity chooses not to utilize its power, and (if the powerful-knowing-good premise is true) said entity mourns for humanity and all our sins, etc, etc. Of course, this choice of noninterference could then lead to the conclusion that this entity lacks one or more of the above-stated qualities. In which case, the problem lies in the presentation, rather than the existence of said god-entity.
    "O Sovereign Lord! You have made the heavens and earth by Your great power. Nothing is too hard for You!" (Jeremiah 32:17)

    Do you believe it when the bible says god is all-powerful?
    Last edited by under the rain; 02-07-2011 at 08:48 PM.


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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by under the rain View Post
    Well I'm pretty sure it's a central tenet of Christian religion that god is all-powerful.
    Actually, the central tenet of Christian religion is "God is love", "Love thy neighbor", etc. Christianity is, at it's core, a big ol' love fest. Of course there are people who supposedly follow Christianity who completely ignore the actual teachings of Christ. But that's an entirely different debate, and I'd prefer to say on topic.

    Put yourself in the position of a superstitious, uneducated, and (by our standards) completely primitive person. You witness things you can't explain, such as a sudden volcanic eruption. Being uneducated in the sciences, you have no understanding of tectonic movement, vulcanism, etc, and can only assume it is the wrath of a god, or other supernatural entity. God being all-powerful is not a tenet so much as it is a perception of God in a poor attempt to avoid anthropomorphism.
    Last edited by Kumoness; 02-07-2011 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumoness View Post
    Actually, the central tenet of Christian religion is "God is love", "Love thy neighbor", etc. Christianity is, at it's core, a big ol' love fest. Of course there are people who supposedly follow Christianity who completely ignore the actual teachings of Christ. But that's an entirely different debate, and I'd prefer to say on topic.

    God being all-powerful is not a tenet so much as it is a perception of God in an poor attempt to avoid anthropomorphism.
    Well we can argue about what we think Christians believe all day, but for what the bible says, see above.


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    Default Re: God vs Science

    1) You're in a trolley. The trolley is going down a track which will hit and kill three people. You can switch tracks; however, if you do switch tracks, you will kill one person on that other track.
    2) You're in a trolley. The trolley is going down a track which will hit and kill three people. You can switch tracks; however, if you do switch tracks, you will kill Jesus on that other track.

    The real question is not God or Science, but WWJD?

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    Default Re: God vs Science

    Quote Originally Posted by under the rain View Post
    Well we can argue about what we think Christians believe all day, but for what the bible says, see above.
    The bible and (supposed) Christian beliefs are the same thing. If we focus only on that, of course we can argue in circles all day.

    My focus, however is mainly on God as an un-caused First Cause, and therefore Creator or Trigger for the universe, rather than the Christian perception of God. That being said, I agree with your arguments that such an entity as presented by Judeo-Christianity. However, based on those arguments, I can arrive at two different conclusions: a) God doesn't exist, or b) God does exist and the perception and presentation of God is wrong.

    A third argument/conclusion: Back to the "love" point I made earlier. Do you believe in love? If so, how do you know it exists? You can't touch love. You can't taste it, smell it, see it, or otherwise observe it. You can observe acts of love, but not love itself. It is an intangible concept just as God is a concept. It does not exist as an entity, but as an idea.
     
    Ugh! Enough with the mushy love stuff!
    Last edited by Kumoness; 02-07-2011 at 09:45 PM.

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