*SPOILERS* Did Euphie Escape...

...Except that he didn't care what happened to her. If it was something important to the overall plan, it would have been told, but all Lelouch included in the plan was to use the Geass on Euphemia, make her shoot him and make him look like a martyr. He wanted to "eliminate" Euphemia, as her plans for the SAZ were in dangerous conflict with those of the Black Knights. What did he mean by "eliminate"? Certainly not pardoning her and letting her go her merry way; that pretty much defeats the purpose (he can't make himself a martyr but forgive Euphemia). He could capture her, but I have already given the problems with that. He can't use her as a pawn against Cornelia since Cornelia can't really do anything except stop soldiers (remember, as Viseroy, she can not simply hand over Japan since Japan does not belong to her).

You are correct in saying that the point of the Zero Requiem was to have all the world's hatred fall on Lelouch and with his death (by "Zero"), have the world focus on peace. However, there was also a side plan. The Zero Reequiem was suppossed to make people, in essence, forget about the massacre that Euphemia caused and clear her name. Lelouch dying does not stop the world from hating him but rather stops the world from hating each other. In the same way, Euphemia dying at Fuji did not stop people from hating her. Her death did not take away the hatred that the Japanese had for her. The Japanese were going to hate her no matter what happened to her. However, with the Zero Requiem, the Japanese turned their focus away from Euphemia when they eventually find out that she was not at fault for the massacre; it was Lelouch.

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Originally Posted by wolfgirl90

@proEuphie: I accept your apology from one of your previous posts, but again I do not know what you were trying to say. That whole "sinner" bit has been used by you before (and you used it again). In fact, its practically word for word from the previous time you used it (you are apparently trying to preach something, otherwise you wouldn't be repeating this three times), except that you were talking specifically about me rather than anime fans in general (which is why I ignored it the first time but got offended this time). Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:

"But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences."

Pardon me?:mad: Here is another quote from you:

"And here is another way to undo the geass:
Lelouch captures a bunch of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji massacre site. He takes one and says he is sentenced to die by gunshot for taking part in the massacre, but instead Zero will burn him at the stake unless he helps Zero. This girl CC will give him a geass power, and if that geass power is the power to undo one of Zero's geass commands, the soldier will be shot instead of burned at the stake. CC gives a power to the soldier, they bring in Euphemia, Zero tells the soldier to undo the geass command, and CC checks if the geass is gone from Euphemia. If it is gone, Lelouch shoots the soldier, if not Lelouch ties him to a stake and lights the fire and brings in the next soldier to try again."

Ignoring the fact that that wouldn't even work (Geass powers are based on one's inner most desires, not necessarily what's needed at the time, so Lelouch will end up killing an unknown amount of soldiers before realizing its not working), its apparently bad for me to say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her and that apparently makes me violent (even though we are discussing a cartoon), but its okay to kill a bunch of soldiers on the off chance that it could save one (count them: one) person? And you used that "sin" quote again (in case you didn't notice, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about this). Like I said before, despite what I say about Euphemia, I won't change the fact that she is dead. I did not influence that. Lelouch didn't influence that either (although he did kill her). The creators did that. I could be a "sinner" (I would appreciate you not calling me that again) for losing hope in Euphemia and saying that she is better of dead (I didn't "lose hope", for she WAS ALREADY DEAD; what hope is there to be had?), but having hope in her is not going to change the overall fact that she is dead. You can say that you are a better person for not giving up on her and trying to figure out how to keep her alive, HOWEVER, that does not stop the fact that she died before any of us decided our opinions on this. In fact, we wouldn't be here other wise. I can say that Euphemia had to die until my face turned blue but that does NOT mean that I decided her fate. And it doesn't mean anything. People, not just anime fans, talk about television characters all the time. If one person thinks that a character should die, that's honestly their opinion and you are not automatically a better person because you think the person should live.

Like I said before, Euphemia's personality (or anyone's personality, mind you) is not locked or suppressed while under the influence of the Geass. Just because she is acting nice does not mean that the Geass is wearing of (in fact, it is the sign of absolutely nothing:rolleyes:). She greeted Zero since she knew that he was her half-brother Lelouch and talked about the SAZ, which was the whole point of him being there in the first place (the memories of the SAZ would not be suppressed). Of course, creating the SAZ completely contradicts her current action of killing every Japanese she can find. When Lelouch shot her, she said, "Lelouch, why?" Whether this means she broke the Geass or not is not really clear. Even while under the influence of the Geass, she would be completely confused as to why her beloved half-brother just shot her in the stomach. If the gun shot broke the Geass (since would she physically incapable of carrying out much of anything once being shot, as per the rule), she would be even more confused as to why Lelouch shot her. So, saying "Lelouch, why?" doesn't necessarily mean she came out of the Geass (which is obvious since the Geass came back when she was in the hospital).

Speaking of her being shot, have you ever heard the phrase "Every time you place logic into an anime, God kills a catgirl?" This basically means that certain logical approaches to actions in anime not only do not work, but one is wasting their time trying to figure them out. Most people are aware that it takes only about a second to fall backwards under normal gravity. But there is no point in calculating that in a slow motion scene. The whole POINT of a slow motion scene is to allow more time for an action to take place. They slowed down the scene where Euphemia is shot to allow her to say "Lelouch, why?", knowing that under normal circumstances, she probably wouldn't be able to open her mouth before falling on the ground. Lelouch even said an entire sentence to her while she was falling! So, trying to figure out if she came out of the Geass based on this is pointless.

Now, to the "more pressing" matter: saving Euphemia. Lelouch NEVER intended on saving Euphemia's life in the first place, so there is no real point in offering tips to the contrary. He already threatened to shot her once before, and at the SAZ, he decided to have her shot him, make him look like a martyr, and to hell with the consequences of what happened to Euphemia. That was the original plan. Once she started shooting people, he decided to use the situation to his advantage and exploit Euphemia. He COULD have restrained her (actually, Lelouch has zero muscle power, so who knows if this would work). He COULD have tied her up. He COULD have captured her. He COULD have made her a prisoner. He COULD have saved her life. HOWEVER, that was NEVER part of the plan to begin with. He wanted to exploit Euphemia to the fullest during that situation, which was to blame the massacre on her, kill her (might as well; the Japanese would never except any punishment less than death for Euphemia), make the Japanese riot against Britannia and create an entirely new nation (matching the original plan).

To answer your question (since you danced around it many, many times), no, Euphemia didn't escape the Geass. This comes from both my opinion and your own. I say she not only didn't escape the Geass before she was shot, but she didn't "escape" the Geass until she ultimately died. So my answer is no. Since you have never directly answered your own question, let me give it for you: Euphemia was really, REALLY close to breaking the Geass when Lelouch arrived. By the time he was there, the Geass barely had any control over her. However, "barely" does not mean "none" or "broken". Remember, your question was whether or not she broke the Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her. Apparently, the answer would be: no.

Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.:rolleyes:

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04/19/09 Why do you say there is no point in showing how Lelouch could have saved Euphemia? You say that saving her was never part of Lelouch's plan, that for example he already threatened to kill her once. More like twice, I think. Why do you keep answering my discussion about what a good person would do in Lelouch's place by saying that Lelouch would not do that?

Saving Euphemia was never part of Lelouch's plan for the SAZ opening. But that was an evil plan to trick thousands of people into dying for his revolution, a plan to commit mass murder. Lelouch gave up that plan when he made peace with Euphemia and seemingly stopped hating her and resumed loving her.

Either Lelouch gave up his plan to start a revolution at the SAZ opening but remained evil and was willing to do other evil things whenever he decided to, or he repented and became good and unwilling to do evil. The evidence supports the first possibility.

Whether Lelouch was good or evil, if he became friendly with Euphemia again he should have spent at least a few seconds thinking about ways to save her after giving her the geass command. And a few seconds should have been all it took to think of a way to capture her alive.

You say that Lelouch was so weak he might not have been able to restrain Euphemia. You seem to think that using force is the only way to capture or restrain someone. But throughout history countless guests have gradually become prisoners without any force being used against them.

For example, Mary Queen of Scots took refuge in England from her enemies in 1568 and was a first the guest of Queen Elizabeth, gradually becoming her prisoner, and was beheaded in 1686.

In 1587 fourteen-year-old "Red" Hugh O'Donnell, prince of Donegal, was lured aboard an English ship which sailed away to Dublin with him. And if he ever learned a lot of foreign history he might have said "I can't believe I fell for the old lure the young prince into the boat and sail away with him trick." He might have learned how in 1062 twelve-year-old Emperor Henry the Fourth boarded a Rhine river boat that stopped at the estate he was staying at. Once he was aboard, the boat rowed away with him - it had been sent by ambitious Archbishop Anno II of Cologne to seize Henry and to take the regency from his mother Agnes. Fearing assassination, Henry leaped into the river and almost drowned but Count Eckbert of Brunswick leaped after him and both rescued and recaptured him in the same action.

So once Lelouch destroyed Euphemia's nightmare he could have used his loudspeaker to invite her to take refuge from "whoever destroyed her nightmare" (pretending it wasn't him) inside his nightmare, and lowered the lift for her. Once she got inside CC and Lelouch could have given her an anesthetic or sedative from the medical supplies. If the Gawain didn't have any medical supplies CC could have done to Euphemia what she did to Suzaku in "'Battle at Narita" which should have kept Euphemia unconscious for a while. So Lelouch could have both rescued Euphemia from the angry Japanese and captured her, preventing her from killing any more Japanese, in the same action.

In the hours that it would take for Euphemia to become a pressing problem again Lelouch could surely spare a few seconds to plan the next step in dealing with her. After all, if he was anything like a typical teenage boy he would probably waste a lot of that time thinking about sex instead of political and military strategy. A lot more than the few seconds it would take to figure out what to to do with Euphemia next.

You say that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass and could not until she died. But you also say that she almost broke the control of the geass over her and it had very little control over her when she talked to Lelouch.

So we seem to be in agreement that Euphemia had already mostly defeated the geass by the time she talked to Lelouch. So if she hadn't been killed she might have had to be locked up for the rest of her life.

Or she might have broken free of the geass after eight years, like Nunnally, and then had a long life ahead of her to enjoy and to do good for others. Or she might have been cured of the geass after about a year when Jeremiah's geass canceler came into use. Or VV might have released her from the geass in a few days if Lelouch turned her over to the Britannians.

Or she might have defeated the geass in a few more minutes or hours, so that it might annoy her but never again have a serious chance of controlling her.

And Lelouch should have seen that Euphemia was not behaving like an ordinary person under the control of one of his geass commands, that she was now wasting time and not making any effort to kill the Japanese. That should have given him reason to believe that if she was confined for a few hours, days, or weeks, the geass command would lose all control over her.

A good person, in Lelouch's position, who noticed that Euphemia did not seem to be very much controlled by the geass would not need fond memories of her as a childhood playmate to convince him that the reason for killing her was no longer valid. The knowledge that she was innocent of ordering the massacre and had even made a unique resistance to the geass command, would make the weakening of the geass control of her enough to make him change his mind and capture her alive.[/quote]

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Originally Posted by wolfgirl90

I have popcorn, although I heard the book was better.:p

Anyway, you seem to be missing my point about the whole "capture Euphemia" thing, proEuphie. While there may have been a chance that Euphemia could have been sedated, restrained and captured, those types of options are not available while there is somebody running around killing people. The threat needs to be taken care of as quickly as possible with as few people dying as possible. While killing someone is not the best thing to happen in a situation like this, if it has to happen, it will. If Euphemia was real and she was running around killing people, sorry, but I am in the military. Its part of my job to figure out how to neutralize threats.

However, this point is moot since Lelouch never planned on saving Euphemia in the first place. He never really cared what happened to her, so there is absolutely no point in saying he could have saved her, he could kept her prisoner, or he could have used her as a hostage. There is no point to this so long as he did not really care about her overall well being. Sure, he knew that Euphemia was a good person, but he also knew that Euphemia was an extremely naive person whose actions went against what he wanted and what he was working toward and thus had to be eliminated. He was going to work with her at one point, but that plan changed when she stared killing people.

Now, you have offered a lot of different scenarios of what Lelouch could do with Euphemia as a hostage. However, most of these arguments can be defeated by one simple fact: Emperor Charles does not care about his children. At all. He was happy that Clovis, his own son, had died since that meant that there was one less weak person alive in the world. Lelouch cannot use Euphemia as a hostage against Cornelia. She can stop the soldiers from attacking but that's about it (and she doesn't need Euphemia to do that).

Lelouch cannot make Cornelia give up Japan in exchange for Euphemia. Cornelia is a Viseroy, a person sent to govern a country or province in the name of a monarch. While she controls Japan, she does not OWN Japan and cannot gave the country away to anyone. She and Euphemia can change boundaries and use the land for what they want (such as Euphemia's SAZ) but they can't simply give the land away. Cornelia is there to govern in place of Charles, the person who DOES own Japan. Cornelia could try to give it away, but Charles would just take it away again. She could declare Tokyo a free city but Charles (onto Lelouch's plan at this point) could easily override anything that Cornelia does. Charles could have stopped the SAZ if he wanted to but, with Euphemia being politically naive (and eventually going around killing people), there was really no point in doing so. Lelouch could appeal to him, but like I said before, Charles barely cares about any of his children. Euphemia no longer holds claim to the throne and gave away her name. Charles may even call her weak for being controlled like that. Because of this, Lelouch can't "demand" that Charles do anything. V.V could cancel the Geass on Euphemia but that would involve him actually caring about doing it and/or Lelouch forcing him to (and I would love to see how you would convince an immortal to do anything).

While I understand your "sin" reference, again, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about the opinions about the life of a cartoon character. Like I said, I had no involvement in the decision that Euphemia should die. The creators of the show decided that. They decided that this innocent, naive, peace-loving girl be shot in the stomach. I had no part in it. Now, in a situational standpoint, yes, she should have died, but my opinion doesn't matter. My opinion is not going to influence her death as Euphemia was already dead when I said it. You can give all these different ways and opinions about Euphemia being alive but it doesn't matter. She is going to be dead (and remain dead) no matter what you say, what I say or what anyone else says. And like I pointed out, you are not innocent when it comes to suggesting violence (far from it actually). Here's a quote from "Who do you want to die?", an AF thread about which InuYasha characters people wanted to die:

"Naraku! Of course. He should be burned at the stake, pulled apart by wild horses, sliced into a thousand pieces, cushed under a thound ton of rocke, etc. etc."

You have said that the lives of the soldiers that took place in that murder mean absolutely nothing and that killing millions upon millions of them is much better than the killing of one "good" person. Pardon me, but who do you think you are? Are you some mystical being that sits on high who can decide whos lives are worth more than others? While people who take place in massacres are terrible people, I can not say that there lives are "worthless" nor am I in any position to make that decision. Neither are you. Euphemia is not that good a person such that millions deserve to die for her sake (like I pointed out last time, she is a virtual carbon copy Lacus Clyne from Gundam SEED; Euphemia is nothing special as far as cartoon characters go). If you wonder why I worry about their lives, then you have some serious issues that you need to work out.

You think I am a bad person for thinking Euphemia should die? That apparently I am pro-violence based upon events in my life (I do do not know where you get off saying this)? Well, you are not so innocent yourself, since you believe that millions of lives should be sacrificed for the sake of one person (who just killed a bunch of people herself). You can call me a sinner all you want to but in doing so, you make yourself look quite arrogant and ignorant (like all the other people who decided to call me that).

And I believe I am done here. I have answered your question. You have repeatedly answered your OWN question. And have decided that any and all people who decide that a fictional character should die (namely Euphemia) is a sinner, regardless of the fact that many people do this all the time and that you are not innocent of this "sin".

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04/24/09 Why do you say there was a chance that Euphemia could have been "sedated, restrained and captured"? The capturing usually comes before sedating and restraining. You say those options are not available when someone is running around killing people. Euphemia was not running around killing people in Episode 23. She was riding a nightmare around and blasting at people with its guns. Then Lelouch destroyed her nightmare and Euphemia was just one girl stumbling along on the ground facing two nightmares that could have blasted her at any second that she became a threat to innocent bystanders.

But they didn't blast her with the big guns, so either Lelouch, CC, and Kallen were not aware of any Japanese still in the vicinity or they didn't care about the lives of those Japanese. If they saw Euphemia try to pick up a weapon one of the nightmares could have taken a few steps toward her and then either Killed her or put its hand between her and the weapon.

Clearly Euphemia could have been killed or captured alive as soon as she crawled out of the wreckage of her nightmare. If Euphemia's threat had to be taken care of as soon as possible then it would have been better to have killed or captured her as soon as she crawled out of the wreckage of her nightmare than to have killed or captured her a little later when Lelouch did shoot her.

You may decide this means it would have been better to kill Euphemia as soon as she got out of the wreckage than to capture her at the time when Lelouch shot her. But it can also be mean that it would have been better to capture her as soon as she crawled out of the wreckage than to kill her when Lelouch did shoot her.

The nightmares might have come with methods to capture people such as 1) stun guns or 2) net-throwers. Perhaps Lelouch and Kallen took theirs off their nightmares because they didn't believe in taking prisoners. 3) And of course a nightmare could capture someone by picking her up in its hand.

Then the nightmare would be unable to use a weapon with that hand until it transferred the prisoner to somewhere else, like the hand of another nightmare or into the prisoner bin or cage (although I don't remember seeing any nightmares with anything that looked like a prisoner bin or cage). Or it could put the prisoner in an entrance hatch of itself or a companion nightmare and the prisoner could have been subdued and immobilized by someone inside the vehicle.

4) Or Lelouch could have gone on the loudspeaker and persuaded Euphemia into getting into his nightmare. He could say he was Zero and she was in danger, that someone had destroyed her nightmare and people wanted to hurt her, and asked her to get into his vehicle for protection. It shouldn't waste much valuable time for Lelouch to think of a line like that since it was pretty much the truth.

Then maybe Lelouch/Zero could give her a big hug while CC gave her an injection to sedate her for a while. Or if they didn't have any medical supplies they could hit her over the head with the butt of a gun or something. Or CC could give her a Vulcan nerve pinch, or rather do the memory thing she did to Suzaku that knocked him out in "Battle of Narita".

And if this took long enough, by the time Euphemia was in the nightmare she might be almost out of the control of the geass. If they noticed that she was not trying to get them to hunt down Japanese they might delay making her unconscious until they tried to get her to order her troops to stop killing the Japanese and retreat. Which might save a lot more Japanese lives than the ones she might have killed with just a machine gun.

Euphemia did pick up a machine gun conveniently lying on the ground. Neither nightmare made a move to stop her, so probably neither Lelouch, CC, nor Kallen saw any Japanese around who they wished to protect from Euphemia.

Euphemia fired the machine gun at Lelouch's Gawain until it jammed. By the time she managed to load another clip she saw Zero descending the lift and recognized it was Lelouch, and then more or less ignored the gun in her hands to talk to Lelouch. Lelouch probably decided to descend to the ground and was on his way to the lift when Euphemia picked up the machine gun. Possibly he was aware of the machine gun and waited to descend in the lift until he saw her struggling with the mechanism.

Anyway, Lelouch probably felt perfectly safe around Euphemia. He should have known that it would be very easy to capture her alive by force or trickery if she loved and trusted him enough not to endanger him. And if it is equally safe and easy, it is always better to capture someone than kill them.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia he passed within a few feet of her, and then he walked past her with his back to her. He probably felt perfectly safe despite noticing that her machine gun was probably loaded, because he knew that she loved and trusted him too much to shoot him in the back.

When Lelouch was just a few feet from Euphemia he could have suddenly shot her dead.

5) Or he could have shot her in an arm. 6) Or a leg. 7) Or an arm and a leg. 8) Or in both shoulders.

9) Or he could have punched her in the jaw. 10) Or the stomach. 11) Or kicked her in the jaw. 12) Or the stomach.

13) Or hit her over the head with the butt of his gun.

14) Or knocked her machine gun out of her hands and twisted her arm behind her back.

15) Or he could have asked her to put down her gun and give him a hug. If she did that he could have told her she was in danger from the people who destroyed her knightmare and invited her to come into his nightmare with him where they could plan their future actions.

Then he could have hurried her back to the lift of his nightmare and they might start to ascend by the time when he did shoot her, with very few extra seconds in which she might have seen and tried to kill a Japanese. Which would have been very difficult once she put down the machine gun if Lelouch kept his own gun secure.

You say in that kind of situation a threat has to be neutralized as soon as possible with as few people as possible dying. In the episode as aired the threat was neutralized with one person dying in the period after Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed. Any of the methods I mentioned would have had a good chance of neutralizing the threat as soon as it was neutralized and with no persons dying in the period after Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed.

How can killing Euphemia be justified on the grounds of protecting other people if she could have been captured alive just as fast, as easy, and with just as little danger to other persons, as killing her? [/quote]

proEuphie... please just let poor Euphimia rest in peace, hasnt she suffer enough, just let it go already.

At this point she will be resurrected.

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Originally Posted by wolfgirl90

@proEuphie:

(several paragraphs deleted to save space)


Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.:rolleyes:

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I saw Gundam seed and I know that there are similarities between Lacus and Euphemia, just are there are similarities between Light and Lelouch. But if you have ever argued that Lelouch is an original character despite those similarities you should accept that Euphemia might have been conceived as a Lacus clone but can be viewed is being in some ways a very interesting and original character. Perhaps much more so than "that Light clone" Lelouch.

I have read a lot of science fiction and have read about tens and hundreds and maybe thousands of protagonists, antagonists, and other characters, with intelligence and cleverness similar to Lelouch's. His intelligence and physical ineptness would make him a refreshing change of pace as a anime protagonist if he wasn't so evil. He could show Inuyasha, Ichigo, and a host of others a thing or two. But in the world of written science fiction he is a somewhat more familiar type of character.

Your idea that Euphemia is a comparatively ordinary character may be due to lack of interest. I just considered her a very nice minor character until I saw Lelouch shoot her for no good reason. My anger at first was just for the evilness of the murder,and would have been almost as great if the victim had been as evil as Kallen, or CC, or Cornelia, or Ogri, or Kaguya, or Suzaku in the second season, or any of the other numerous villains in Code Geass.

But as I thought about it more and more I noticed more and more interesting facets to Euphemia. CC is obviously a mysterious character with her geass powers. But Euphemia resisted the evil geass command to kill the Japanese at first (probably because it was evil and not because it was a geass command) and seemed to have mostly escaped from the control of the geass when she was talking to Lelouch, probably due to continued subconscious resistance to the geass. Possibly Euphemia is a more mysterious character than CC.

Euphemia seems to have low self esteem for a girl who is probably idolized by millions of strangers. She is polite to other people but doesn't react much when Kallen insults her, as if she has been trained to consider herself worthless. She greets her brother Schneitzel warmly in "island of the Gods", after he zapped her with a ray which teleported her into the ocean where she might have been drowned - she doesn't seem to care that he endangered her.

I suspect that she has been humiliated, insulted, and mistreated in private by most members of the imperial family and perhaps the higher nobility, for reasons unknown. Perhaps a group that large will always have a few pariahs and Euphemia just seemed odd enough to naturally become one of them.

Possibly Euphemia's only childhood friends were Lelouch and Nunnally and she had no friends her own age after they were lost (except possibly friends at school) until she met Suzaku. Possibly Cornelia was the only person who loved Euphemia after Lelouch and Nunnaly were lost.

In "Black Knight" Euphemia was held hostage for hours, revealed her true identity in the hope of getting the other hostages released, and then talked rather calmly with her brother's killer in a room full of dead bodies. Perhaps she was just born calm, or perhaps she has had experiences which got her used to that type of thing. Experiences which don't fit into the usual picture of her life before coming to Japan.

Anyway, I see a lot of hints that if Euphemia had been the protagonist, antagonist, or other major character, of a series she could have become one of the most interesting characters in anime.

As for your statements about making a fuss about a cartoon character who is already dead, a lot of Code geass fans hope to see Lelouch come back somehow. Your words remind me of what someone might have said to a Sherlock Holmes fan in 1895 or 1898 that it was no use getting upset about a fictional character who was already dead. (In the "The Final Problem", published 1893, fictional date 1891). But the fans did get Holmes to return in "The Empty House" (published 1903, fictional date 1894).

And I want Euphemia to return.

"I want Euphemia alive and Lelouch dead. But I guess I can settle for Euphemia and Lelouch alive."[/quote]

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Originally Posted by Funkgun

At this point she will be resurrected.

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I certainly hope so.

"I want Euphemia alive and Lelouch dead. But I guess I can settle for Euphemia and Lelouch alive." [/quote]

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Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight

proEuphie... please just let poor Euphimia rest in peace, hasnt she suffer enough, just let it go already.

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No. "I want Euphemia alive and Lelouch dead. But I guess I could settle for both Euphemia and Lelouch alive." [/quote]

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Originally Posted by proEuphie

No. "I want Euphemia alive and Lelouch dead. But I guess I could settle for both Euphemia and Lelouch alive."

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[/quote]
ok... but they're both still dead, and besides that lelouch already took the rep for killing her already and died for everything he did wrong.

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You are correct in saying that the point of the Zero Requiem was to have all the world's hatred fall on Lelouch and with his death (by "Zero"), have the world focus on peace. However, there was also a side plan. The Zero Reequiem was suppossed to make people, in essence, forget about the massacre that Euphemia caused and clear her name. Lelouch dying does not stop the world from hating him but rather stops the world from hating each other. In the same way, Euphemia dying at Fuji did not stop people from hating her. Her death did not take away the hatred that the Japanese had for her. The Japanese were going to hate her no matter what happened to her. However, with the Zero Requiem, the Japanese turned their focus away from Euphemia when they eventually find out that she was not at fault for the massacre; it was Lelouch.

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Bravo! Couldn't have been explained any better.

I am now of the opinion that Euphemia very largely escaped from the control of her geass in the short period between shooting at Lelouch's nightmare and asking him him to help her administer the zone. And possibly in the even shorter period between telling Lelouch/Zero she had thought he was Japanese and asking him to help with the Zone.

Before the geass could make her kill against her deepest convictions, afterward it could not make her look for more victims instead of chatting with Lelouch. Obviously Euphemia's desire to talk, however strong it might be compared to the desire to talk of a hermit like me, could not be nearly as strong as her hatred of killing and violence.

So before the geass could overcome Euphemia's strongest convictions, and afterward it was too weak to overcome a somewhat weaker desire of Euphemia. That is a drastic drop in power, like an incandescent light bulb fading when the power is turned off.

Possibly recognizing Zero, who she knew was Lelouch, was an external stimulus which defeated the geass command. If the geass had told her that she was seven years earlier in time and that the Japanese in the stadium were gathered to torture to death Lelouch and Nunnally, that might have helped the geass to take over her body. Seeing Lelouch would then have proven that she was not seven years in the past, but in the future when Lelouch and Nunnally were older and had not been tortured to death.

Or possibly seeing Zero was just a coincidence. Possibly the geass command had had to use ever increasing amounts of geass energy to take over Euphemia and keep in control and had used up a supply which would normally last a lifetime in just about an hour or possibly much less. And possibly the geass command had drained the world's supplies of geass energy keeping Euphie under control and finally had to quit when the world's supplies got dangerously low. If so, I can only hope that some of that enormous amount of geass energy leaked into Euphie and turned her into a geass giver like CC or VV, so she could revive soon after dying and live somewhere in secret between the two seasons and during the second season, to emerge sometime during the third season if it is ever made.

Or perhaps Euphemia's subconscious mind continued to resist and attack the geass command and wore it down until it failed to keep any significant control while Euphemia was talking to Lelouch. If Nunnally 's subconscious mind attacked and wore down her blindness geass during a large part or even all of the eight years that Nunnally was blind, until Nunnally could suddenly break her geass, then Euphemia seems to have done about 90 percent of what Nunnally did about ten thousand times faster. If it was an amazing feat for Nunnally to break her blindness geass then somehow Euphemia must not be a human being but some kind of supernatural and/or extraterrestrial being. And I can hope that perhaps her species has the ability to regenerate from serious wounds and revive from seeming death.

You know I always wonder why lelouch never went overkill and used the hadron cannon instead of that little gun, now that would've made a more epic death for Euphy and I might o felt some sympathy but... LONG LIVE LACUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL nah still sad either way.

Nunally overcame not Lelouch's Geass, which is absolute order, but Charles, which is memory manipulation and it took years for her to do that. And by the way, Charles died, so maybe his Geass became weaker after his death. And Euphemia. That thought that she must kill all Japanese was inscrutable to her. That's why she was able to Resist it a little. But in the end, she didn't overcame it. Even though when Lelouch shot her, she said: Why? At that time she just regained her conscious a little, because of the pain and of surprise that Lelouch did shoot her. And when she didn't kill Suzaku. That was because her physical condition didn't let her. She just wasn't able to do it. So in the end she just manipulated by Geass and died without Escaping it.

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Originally Posted by IcePriestess

Nunally overcame not Lelouch's Geass, which is absolute order, but Charles, which is memory manipulation and it took years for her to do that. And by the way, Charles died, so maybe his Geass became weaker after his death. And Euphemia. That thought that she must kill all Japanese was inscrutable to her. That's why she was able to Resist it a little. But in the end, she didn't overcame it. Even though when Lelouch shot her, she said: Why? At that time she just regained her conscious a little, because of the pain and of surprise that Lelouch did shoot her. And when she didn't kill Suzaku. That was because her physical condition didn't let her. She just wasn't able to do it. So in the end she just manipulated by Geass and died without Escaping it.

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You basically summed up everything that has been said and have successfully answered proEuphie's question.:laugh:

Hopefully, she will pay attention.

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Originally Posted by wolfgirl90

You basically summed up everything that has been said and have successfully answered proEuphie's question.:laugh:

Hopefully, she will pay attention.

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Actually I was too bored to read these all posts, so I just answered the question myself and expressed my opinion. I didn't read everything. It's too much :p

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Originally Posted by IcePriestess

Actually I was too bored to read these all posts, so I just answered the question myself and expressed my opinion. I didn't read everything. It's too much :p

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I don't think anyone reads them either, I mean... they would rather read the bible than all these posts. :o

But to answer the question, no Euphie didn't escape the Geass, but she did try to resist. Not even Charles Vi Britannia could escape the Geass because if you remember, he shot himself when Lelouch used Geass on him. He even used it on the gods and they couldn't resist. So nobody has ever escaped from the wrath of Lelouch and his Geass. *evil laughter*

Dear god. ( dear Lelouch. )
How much can you people write?
Ok, here is my thoughs. feel free to debate it with me but please get to the point as fast as you can.
"escape"? no...
Fighting like hell? YES
Ok I think that she did not see Suzaku as an 11 as much as the other random people she did not know, and the red showed she was still being manipulated by Geass but fightng like hell.
Also another reason she did not do anything to Suzaku was because the Geass would not active if she was just unable to move much, and her mind was fighting.
Personaly I will say I am 75% sure she did not, and 10% sure it was something inbetween, and 5% she did.

Note: Yes Code Geass fans can be scary.

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Originally Posted by SigmaSD

But to answer the question, no Euphie didn't escape the Geass, but she did try to resist. Not even Charles Vi Britannia could escape the Geass because if you remember, he shot himself when Lelouch used Geass on him. He even used it on the gods and they couldn't resist. So nobody has ever escaped from the wrath of Lelouch and his Geass. *evil laughter*

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Well, that can be debatable since by then he had V.V's code. Personally, I took it as an attempt to troll his son. Though you can be right if we accept the theory that you need to "die" or "get hurt" so the code could activate.

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Originally Posted by SigmaSD

But to answer the question, no Euphie didn't escape the Geass, but she did try to resist. Not even Charles Vi Britannia could escape the Geass because if you remember, he shot himself when Lelouch used Geass on him.

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IF he used the Geass on him. Right now, while it is confirmed that the Geass reached Charles' eyes, whether it worked or not is based upon the various opinions of the viewers (although, I don't think that it was meant to be up to be speculation).

For me, I have the same view as Luluko, that Charles was merely trolling around with Lelouch, rather than actually being under his influence.;)

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Originally Posted by IcePriestess

Nunally overcame not Lelouch's Geass, which is absolute order, but Charles, which is memory manipulation and it took years for her to do that. And by the way, Charles died, so maybe his Geass became weaker after his death. And Euphemia. That thought that she must kill all Japanese was inscrutable to her. That's why she was able to Resist it a little. But in the end, she didn't overcame it. Even though when Lelouch shot her, she said: Why? At that time she just regained her conscious a little, because of the pain and of surprise that Lelouch did shoot her. And when she didn't kill Suzaku. That was because her physical condition didn't let her. She just wasn't able to do it. So in the end she just manipulated by Geass and died without Escaping it.

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1) Euphemia did not do anything to obey the geass after shooting at the nightmares with the machine gun (which Lelouch & co. so inexplicably let her pick up and keep) and then trying to reload it. Euphemia did not seem to be aware of her geass command after apologizing to Lelouch/Zero for thinking he was Japanese.

After that Euphemia did nothing to obey the command and kill Japanese while the clock ticked and seconds passed away. She watched Lelouch/Zero, who had the power to help or hinder her obedience to the geass command, and did not say anything about it to him.

I think the geass command no longer had the power to make her do anything to obey it and kill Japanese people. Euphemia had mostly regained control of her actions. But obviously she did not clearly remember the massacre, which would have horrified her. Thus she was rapidly escaping from the control of the geass and forgetting what she had done when under its control.

2) Then there are the eyes, which I discussed in a previous post called "Do the Eyes Have it?" # 6 in this thread.

Euphemia still had red circles around her eyes right before Lelouch shot her, despite the fact that she was ignoring and unaware of the geass command. This shows that the red circles appear as soon as the geass command gets a tiny percentage of the control it needs to dominate someone's will, and not when it has achieved total domination and control. Of course with everyone else the difference is insignificant, since every other person becomes totally enslaved by the geass command within a split second of the red circles appearing.

3) When Suzaku asked Euphemia in the sick bay why she gave the order she asked him what order, puzzled, and there were no red circles in her eyes. So she had forgotten about the massacre, and the absence of red circles showed that she was even less controlled by the geass command than when she had been talking to Lelouch, unaware of the geass command.

That seems like she was one hundred percent or almost one hundred percent free of the geass.

Then the red circles appeared in her eyes, after a time Euphie became aware of the geass command, fought against it, and then she was peaceful again, and then the red circles vanished. Euphie was not even aware of the geass command for a large part of the time that the red circles were in her eyes, which proves that they were visible when the geass command was not even strong enough for her to notice and resist it.

Though it is commonly believed that the geass command faded away because it found that Euphemia was too weak to kill it is possible that Euphemia simply resisted and defeated it. After the geass command tried to take over her, she did move her hands and arms a little. She was not totally helpless. She might have found a way to attack Suzaku.

For example, the geass command might have made her put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, next to his neck, and then slash his throat with her thumbnail, hoping to cut a vital blood vessel.

4) The evidence seems to clearly show that Euphemia almost totally freed herself from the geass command and regained control of her body before Lelouch shot her. So how does that compare to Nunnally?

I said that Euphemia seems to have approximately ninety percent or so freed herself from control of the geass command in minutes, probably less than an hour, and on the order of ten thousand times faster than Nunnally freed herself. If one of Lelouch's geass commands was much stronger than one of Charles's memory manipulation geasses, then Euphemia's feat is even more impressive when compared to Nunnally's own quite impressive feat.

But if Nunnally only started to free herself from her geass when Charles died, she did so in a month or so. Thus makes the speed of Euphemia's escape much less impressive compared to Nunnally's. But on the other hand it means that Euphemia freed herself when the geass user who had put it on her, Lelouch, was still alive, instead of having to wait until he died, as Nunnally had to wait until Charles died.

Anyway you look at it Euphemia's struggle against the geass and and almost entirely freeing herself from it's effects is extremely impressive compared to even the next best example, Nunnally.

5) SigmaSD in post # 41 says that even the gods could not escape the power of Lelouch's geass commands. That proves that the geass commands are very powerful indeed, but it does not disprove the evidence which shows Euphemia ignoring and even seemingly unaware of the geass command right before Lelouch shot her. So establishing the immense power of the geass commands merely makes Euphemia's eventually successful resistance even more impressive. Not just super human but also super divine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KamiKenpachi

Dear god. ( dear Lelouch. )
How much can you people write?
Ok, here is my thoughs. feel free to debate it with me but please get to the point as fast as you can.
"escape"? no...
Fighting like hell? YES
Ok I think that she did not see Suzaku as an 11 as much as the other random people she did not know, and the red showed she was still being manipulated by Geass but fightng like hell.
Also another reason she did not do anything to Suzaku was because the Geass would not active if she was just unable to move much, and her mind was fighting.
Personaly I will say I am 75% sure she did not, and 10% sure it was something inbetween, and 5% she did.

Note: Yes Code Geass fans can be scary.

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Se my post # 45

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Originally Posted by SigmaSD

I don't think anyone reads them either, I mean... they would rather read the bible than all these posts. :o

But to answer the question, no Euphie didn't escape the Geass, but she did try to resist. Not even Charles Vi Britannia could escape the Geass because if you remember, he shot himself when Lelouch used Geass on him. He even used it on the gods and they couldn't resist. So nobody has ever escaped from the wrath of Lelouch and his Geass. *evil laughter*

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See my post # 45. I say that Euphemia resisted her geass command more than even the gods could.

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Originally Posted by IcePriestess

Actually I was too bored to read these all posts, so I just answered the question myself and expressed my opinion. I didn't read everything. It's too much :p

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If it is too much to read everything, read my latest post, # 45.

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Originally Posted by wolfgirl90

You basically summed up everything that has been said and have successfully answered proEuphie's question.:laugh:

Hopefully, she will pay attention.

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No, she hasn't successfully answered my question. See my post # 45.

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Originally Posted by blackrosetwilight

You know I always wonder why lelouch never went overkill and used the hadron cannon instead of that little gun, now that would've made a more epic death for Euphy and I might o felt some sympathy but... LONG LIVE LACUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL nah still sad either way.

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see my post # 31 Euphemia's not a Lacus Clone.

And see my post # 45.

Once Lelouch destroyed her nightmare and Euphie crawled out of the wreckage, Lelouch could have instantly blasted her with one of his big guns or picked her up in the hand of his nightmare to capture her. Lelouch could have destroyed her nightmare by blasting it with one of the big guns, which would have killed her instantly, instead of slicing it apart. He could have killed her or captured her before he did kill her.

Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her. After her nightmare was destroyed Euphemia was totally helpless to kill anyone until Lelouch and Co. let her pick up and keep a machine gun.

Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to get back to commanding the fight against the Britannians at Fuji and then start planning the next steps in the Black Rebellion. If there were any Britannians still fighting and massacring at Fuji capturing Euphemia and using her as a hostage would be the best way to stop the fighting as fast as possible.

If there were any Japanese people in front of Euphie and behind the nightmares the geass command would have made Euphie mow them down instead of wasting her bullets on the nightmares. Unless at that point Euphie was only pretending to the geass command that she was doing her best to kill as many Japanese as possible but was actually trying to kill as few as possible. If there were any Japanese people in front of Lelouch and behind Euphie Lelouch would have deliberately condemmed them to death when he walked past Euphie and made it almost certain that she would turn around to look at him as he walked away with his back to her, confident that she wouldn't shoot him.

So it is almost certain that there were no Japanese around to be endangered by Euphemia or to be witnesses. Even if Lelouch wanted to claim the glory of killing her he could have secretly captured her and then claimed to have killed her, asking CC and commanding Kallen to back him up.