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proEuphie
10-11-2009, 11:23 PM
The Court Martial of A Mecha Pilot

Let us imagine the court martial of mecha pilot Shinji Ikari

Prosecutor Mombuto:

"Colonel Shinji Ikari, why didn't you capture the enemy commander, at the Battle of Madnug, after you so brilliantly destroyed her mecha? Standing orders say that whenever possible an enemy leader of the rank of general or above must be captured to be used as a hostage to stop the battle. And killing a defenseless enemy instead of capturing her is clearly an act of murder, punishable by death."

Fickle spectators boo Colonel ikari.

Judge Gomez: "Silence!"

Colonel Ikari. "It was not possible to capture the Azurian commander, so I had to blast her into atoms with my mega-cannon."

Fickle spectators cheer Colonel Ikari.

Judge Gomez: "Silence!"

Prosecutor Mombuto: "Why wasn't it possible to capture the enemy leader? Why didn't you use some sleep gas on her?"

Fickle spectators boo Colonel Ikari.

Judge Gomez: "Silence!"

Colonel Ikari: "My sleep gas canister was punctured during the previous battle. I requested a replacement and it arrived the Tuesday after the Battle of Madnug."

Fickle spectators cheer Colonel Ikari.

Judge Gomez: "Silence!"

Prosecutor Mombuto: "Why didn't you use your net thrower on the enemy commander?"

Fickle spectators -- well, you got the idea by now.

Colonel Ikari: My net was broken. The replacement net arrived the Tuesday after the Battle of Madnug."

Prosecutor Mombuto: "How does a steel cable net get broken?"

Colonel Ikari: "Well, ah, er, we were having some drinks and I bet Captain Ivanov that I could net and capture his mecha despite his best evasive moves. It turned out that I could snag the mecha in the net but the force of the moving mecha was just too much for my net and it snapped."

Prosecutor Mombuto: "Why didn't you use your mecha's sonic blaster to knock the Azurian general unconscious?"

Colonel Ikari: "Well, the power unit on the battalion coffee machine was broken so I replaced it with the power unit from my mecha's sonic blaster, which was rarely used since we almost never see an enemy outside of the protection of his mecha. The replacement power unit arrived the Tuesday after the Madnug Battle. So you see, I had absolutely no way to capture the enemy general alive and I had to either just let her go or blast her to atoms with my mega-cannon."

Prosecutor Mombuto: So you claim that you had no way to capture the enemy general alive, despite the fact that she was unarmed and just a couple of dozen feet away from your mecha?"

Colonel Ikari: "Yes, sir. It is impossible for a mecha pilot to capture an enemy if all three of his capture devices, the sonic blaster, the net thrower, and the sleep gas, are all disabled at the same time. It was just a tragic series of equipment failures at the same time which made it absolutely impossible for me to capture the enemy commander alive. I had no malice or criminal intent toward her.”

Prosecutor Mombuto: “Honored members of the court, please look at prosecution Exhibit A, a letter written by the deceased, Azurian General Rei Ikari, a year ago, at the start of this terrible civil war. Recorder, please read from your copy for the benefit of the spectators.”

Recorder (reading from the letter): “Shinji, my father, please forgive me for the terrible things I said to you when you said you were going to join the Viridians. Please, please forgive me. I have already forgiven you for what you said to me in your anger. I beg you to send me a message telling me that you forgive me for joining the Azurians.”

“People can only choose to fight for the side that they are convinced is right, and if the mere fact that someone they love is fighting on the other side is not enough to change their convictions, they must fight against the side of even their most beloved family members. But somehow we must find the strength to still love each other, despite my hatred for the Viridian cause and your hatred for the Azurian cause.”

“Though I will give the Azurian cause almost all my loyalty and devotion, because of you I will not give it all my commitment. I will reserve some loyalty to you, my dear father, and to humanity. If by some dread chance we meet in battle, I will capture you or surrender to you, run away or let you escape, instead of forcing a fight to the death between us.”

“And I promise to fight against the hatred that this horrible civil war will bring and try to be as kind as possible to all the Viridian prisoners and civilian population, seeing you in all of them, hoping to set a good example for my fellows and keep the hatred to a minimum.”

“Your loving daughter, Rei Ikari.”

Prosecutor Mombuto: “That letter from the deceased, Azurian General Rei Ikari, was found in the possessions of the accused, Colonel Shinji Ikari -- her father.”

Gasps from the court and spectators.

Prosecutor Mombuto:”Honored members of the court, please watch the screen where I will play Exhibit B, a video taken by a camera on the torso of Colonel Ikari’s mecha during the Battle of Madnug in which the deceased, General Ikari was killed.”

Colonel Ikari: “What! I wasn’t told there was a camera on my mecha!”

Judge Gomez: “Well, now you know. The prosecution should have an explanation for the presence of that camera when they give their full case against you.”

The video opened with pieces of a destroyed mecha raining to the ground and a mecha pilot parachuting to safety, having ejected in time. The pilot landed and disengaged from the parachute. She walked toward the camera and stopped about thirty feet away and twenty feet lower than the camera. She unholstered her pistol and held it out by the barrel with a resigned expression on her pretty young face. Her blue flight suit was wet with sweat and stuck closely to her.

Colonel Ikari appeared on the ground walking away from the camera and toward the Azurian officer, who looked surprised, then ran up to Ikari and hugged him Colonel Ikari in his green flight suit pushed her away from, snatched the pistol out of her hand, and shot her with it. There was a startled expression her faces as she crumbled to the ground..

Prosecutor Mombuto: “Notice that Colonel Ikari is not wearing his holster or pistol, which is against regulations and an indication that he felt perfectly safe in the situation.”

Colonel Ikari turned back toward the camera and walked back to his off screen mecha. After a few seconds a blast from his off screen mega-cannon blasted the enemy officer’s body to atoms.

Prosecutor Mombuto: “You can examine Exhibit C, a pistol with the inscribed name of ‘R Ikari’ which was found in Colonel Ikari’s possession and has a serial number which does not match that of any pistol issued by our armed forces.”

Prosecutor Mombuto: “If Colonel Ikari felt so safe that he didn’t even bother to take his own pistol with him when he went out to General Ikari, I find it hard to believe that he was afraid that General Ikari would resist or try to shoot him. Thus I believe that taking General Ikari a prisoner as per the normal procedure would have been almost as safe for Colonel Ikari as killing General Ikari was.”

Prosecutor Mombuto: “But suppose that you think that if capturing General Ikari was not exactly as safe for Colonel Ikari as killing General Ikari, the little bit of extra danger involved in capturing General Ikari would have been enough to making killing her not murder but an acceptable behavior on the part of Colonel Ikari. If any of you think that, you will be surprised to learn that there was another way Colonel Ikari could have captured General Ikari alive which was even safer to Colonel Ikari than killing General Ikari was.”

Gasps from the court and spectators.

Prosecutor Mombuto: "Honored members of the court, I wish you all to examine Exhibit D, life sized reproductions of a letter written by Colonel Ikari last week. Notice anything unusual?"

General Chandraputra: Colonel Ikari's handwriting is unusually large and clumsy for an adult and an officer, but what has that to do with this case?"

Prosecutor Mombuto: Colonel Ikari wrote that letter using the hands of his mecha."

Gasps from the court and spectators.

Prosecutor Mombuto: Colonel Ikari is very dexterous with the hands of his mecha. He can do very fine work with them, as the letter shows, or he can use enormous strength, as exhibit E, a photo of him tossing Lieutenant McFly into the air and catching him, shows."

That may not sound impressive, but the photo showed that Lieutenant McFly was in his mecha when Colonel Ikari tossed him up and caught him.

Colonel Ikari: So I'm handy with the hands of my mecha. What does that prove?"

Prosecutor Mombuto: "So why didn't you simply pick up the enemy commander in the hand of your mecha to capture her?"

Gasps from the court and spectators.

Prosecutor Mombuto: "It might be claimed that there was some mechanical failure with the hands of Colonel Ikari's mecha at the time of the Battle of Madnug. But I have witnesses to testify that Colonel Ikari performed his usual post-battle ritual immediately upon returning to the post, and before there was any time to do any repairs to the hands of his mecha. And this video, exhibit F, shows just what the ritual was. Colonel Ikari in his mecha, juggled three jeeps, put them down, and then juggled his mechanics, privates Jones and Chang."

Colonel Ikari: "Oh, Oh"

Yes, it seems that there is no way a mecha pilot accused of killing an unarmed foe who was on the ground, outdoors, and close to his mecha, can claim that he had no way to capture him alive, that he was forced to kill him.

The mecha in different anime have a wide range of abilities and missions. Naturally they are equipped with a wide number of lethal weapons to use in those missions. Weapons like sniper rifles, machine guns, swords, grenade launchers, cannons, mega-cannons, rocket launchers, atomic bombs, lasers, planetary disruptors, force fields, death rays, etc. etc. etc.

I believe that any good and decent military organization which uses Mecha should equip each mecha with at least one nonlethal weapon to use for capturing prisoners. Something like a lasso, a net thrower, an electric stun gun, a stun ray, knockout gas, a tranquilizer dart gun, etc. etc. etc.

I wonder if there is any anime in which a military force uses mecha equipped with nonlethal weapons for capturing prisoners whenever possible, with or without other, lethal weapons for killing enemies. I wonder if there is any anime mecha force or individual mecha pilot known to certainly not have any nonlethal weapons for capturing prisoners.

Is there any anime in which it is shown that the hands of those particular mechas are too strong and clumsy to grab someone safely, that they would always crush a person to death? How many animes are there in which it is clearly shown that the hands of mechas can gently pick up people without hurting them?

Is there any anime character who stupidly let an enemy run away to safety when he could have simply picked up the enemy in the hand of his mecha?

Is there any anime character who killed someone he could have captured by simply picking him up in the hand of his mecha?

AznOtaku
10-12-2009, 12:05 AM
tl;dr.

div
10-12-2009, 12:12 AM
I wonder if there is any anime in which a military force uses mecha equipped with nonlethal weapons for capturing prisoners whenever possible, with or without other, lethal weapons for killing enemies.

Giant robots are for kicking ***, not picking flowers.

I'm kidding. I can't actually think of any relevant examples, but you do bring up some interesting points. Mecha are almost always shown to have extremely dexterous hands/claws/whatever, but rarely do you see this being used on the battlefield outside the obligatory "rescue a comrade/love interest" scene. This seems like a lot of wasted potential. I will contemplate this more and try to come up with a meaningful response.

MangaFanGuy
10-12-2009, 12:34 AM
:wacko::wacko:man that took a long time to read.


Yes, it seems that there is no way a mecha pilot accused of killing an unarmed foe who was on the ground, outdoors, and close to his mecha, can claim that he had no way to capture him alive, that he was forced to kill him.
Depends on the Mecha, depends on the foe, depends on the tactical situation etc
I believe you have generalized way too much and corrupted your own point.

The mecha in different anime have a wide range of abilities and missions. Naturally they are equipped with a wide number of lethal weapons to use in those missions. Weapons like sniper rifles, machine guns, swords, grenade launchers, cannons, mega-cannons, rocket launchers, atomic bombs, lasers, planetary disruptors, force fields, death rays, etc. etc. etc.

True

I believe that any good and decent military organization which uses Mecha should equip each mecha with at least one nonlethal weapon to use for capturing prisoners. Something like a lasso, a net thrower, an electric stun gun, a stun ray, knockout gas, a tranquilizer dart gun, etc. etc. etc.
no
What is the point?
In a military sense you should only put on the stuff you think you should need.
how well do you think modern day commandos or spec ops would do if they all had to carry around extra LTL weapons that they will only ever use once in a very specific situation against a very specific enemy?.
many mecha are weapons designed to fight other mechas and nothing more and so are equpped as such. anything more is just dead weight
If you were to design a mecha for urban pacification or crowd control then you wouldn't want to weigh it down with the same weapons designed to punch through mecha armour would you?

I wonder if there is any anime in which a military force uses mecha equipped with nonlethal weapons for capturing prisoners whenever possible, with or without other, lethal weapons for killing enemies. I wonder if there is any anime mecha force or individual mecha pilot known to certainly not have any nonlethal weapons for capturing prisoners.
none that I know of.
But what I do know of in terms of mecha animes they tend to leave the taking of prisoners to the regular soldiers without mechas.
Mechas are really impractial for taking prisoners due to not only being primarily powerhouses in combat but the scale of weapons makes them impractical for capturing soft bodied people (Would you want a mecha sized net landing on your head?)

Is there any anime in which it is shown that the hands of those particular mechas are too strong and clumsy to grab someone safely, that they would always crush a person to death? How many animes are there in which it is clearly shown that the hands of mechas can gently pick up people without hurting them?
Most mechas show dexterity of the fingers close to that of a persons hand

Is there any anime character who stupidly let an enemy run away to safety when he could have simply picked up the enemy in the hand of his mecha?
Yes all the time in Mecha shows.

Is there any anime character who killed someone he could have captured by simply picking him up in the hand of his mecha?
*Start the Trumpets*
Euphemia (Cos lets face it it was all building to this) had many more factors building to her deatht then simply "He couldn't pick her up"
She was killed for specific reasons (Militaristic, political etc) and in the end it was better for Zero to kill her then any of the other situations.
And because of the dexterity he didn't even have to leave his mecha.
So he did her a favor by at least letting her know who it was that killed her.

blackrosetwilight
10-13-2009, 08:26 PM
Ever seen a F-22, Apache Helicopter, and Abrams tanks carring non-lethal weapons? You should already know the answer/reason and that is why most "Real Type Mecha" dont carry non-lethal weapons, see keep it simple.

P.S. I skimmed through most of your post so correct any of my mistake if there are any

proEuphie
10-17-2009, 12:20 PM
Ever seen a F-22, Apache Helicopter, and Abrams tanks carring non-lethal weapons? You should already know the answer/reason and that is why most "Real Type Mecha" dont carry non-lethal weapons, see keep it simple.

P.S. I skimmed through most of your post so correct any of my mistake if there are any


Spy satilites used to send canisters of exposed film back to Earth. As they parachuted toward the ocean, planes would h catch the canisters in giant nets. Ejecting enemy pilots parachuting to safety could be caught in a similar way, keeping them from fighting again without killing hem. jet fighters could not be equipped with devices to snag pilots parachuting to safety because the jets travel way too fast. Robot planes coud accompany jet fighters into battle, decelerate to safe speeds, catch parachuting fighters in nets and take them back to base. Of course by the time such robot planes were developed most fighter craft will probably be robots and/or flown by remote control.


If someone ever invents a sleep gas that is not almost as lethal as poison gas tanks or helicopters could spread it over an area in a surprise attack before anyone could put on gas masks. Then soldiers would find every unconscious person and sort them into enemy, noncombatant, and uncertain groups and detain the members of enemy and uncertain groups for questionings and/or imprisonment.

In the world of my example it is possible that earlier in the war the Virdian mechas were mostly used to beak through enemy infantry and tank lines with deadly weapons and them pursue the fleeing enemies and capture many with non lethal weapons. The masses of prisoners could be used to pressure the Azurians into making peace to save the prisoners from captivity or also be brainwashed into joining the Viridian side. When the Azurians got many mechas of their own the situation changed into mechas fighting mechas.

Remember the Balrog in Lord of the Rings had a whip as well as a sword?

The Balrogs were demons who served Sauron's original master, Morgoth, orginator of all evil and the first dark lord. At the Battle of Sudden Flame Glaurung the Golden Father of Dragons, led the way, followed by Balrogs and hordes of orcs.

After Mogorth's final defeat hordes of elves were released from his fortress where they had been enslaved as workers and smiths for decades and centuries. So Morgoth wanted prisoners as slave workers. One theory about the origin of orcs is that they were captured elves who had been corrupted by Morgoth. So Morgoth may have wanted many elf prisoners in the hope of turning them into orcs after thousands of years.

In battle the Balrogs were used against elfen and human infantry and cavalry like mechas would have been used against infantry and cavalry. Since Morgoth gave his Balrogs whips as well as swords they may have been ordered to whip many enemies into submission to take prisoner.

Mechas used to break infantry lines could be armed with thousands of feet of whips to be unreeled to any desired length. The whips could have thousands of tiny sedative-injecting needles (like jelllyfish tenticles) and/or shocking electrodes. When the enemy broke and ran the mechas could pursue them whipping them into unconsciousness for capture by the following troops.

If the mechas have a good nonlethal sleep gas and fear gas they can release invisible fear gas over a wide area and sleep gas (with some additive to make it visible) over a smaller area closer to them. When the enemy affected by the fear gas see their fellows falling down unconscious they will assume they have been killed by poison gas and run away in panic.

In Code geass when the Britannians had a monopoly on nightmares they may have been used to break enemy infantry lines in similar ways, possibly using nonlethal weapons.

Anyway, the point of this thread is that mechas are unlike tanks, jet planes, helicopter gunships, etc, etc. in that they have hands that are usually very capable. If an unarmed enemy is standing right at the feet of your mecha, you can't say that you have to kill him because your mecha has no nonlethal weapons or they are out of service. You can always pick up the enemy in the hand of your mecha and capture him instead of killing him.

blackrosetwilight
10-17-2009, 06:01 PM
"sigh" go watch Kenshin I dont feel like preaching about ethic becasue I just dont have the time

MangaFanGuy
10-18-2009, 12:58 AM
In the world of my example it is possible that earlier in the war the Virdian mechas were mostly used to beak through enemy infantry and tank lines with deadly weapons and them pursue the fleeing enemies and capture many with non lethal weapons. The masses of prisoners could be used to pressure the Azurians into making peace to save the prisoners from captivity or also be brainwashed into joining the Viridian side. When the Azurians got many mechas of their own the situation changed into mechas fighting mechas.
I fail to see what this has to do with anything?
You cannot make up Mechas for one world and then apply their ideas to anouther.
If (Like is the obvious case) you are trying to compare them to britannian forces I think you are sadly mistaken.
In that regard the images we saw of the original invasion showed their mechas were never intended to be peaceful machines at all and were always equipped with lethal weaponry and not LTL for capturing civilians.
Also the readiness of Brittanian forces to massacre civilians means it is unlikely they ever considered LTL and so bears little to no relationship to your own example.

Remember the Balrog in Lord of the Rings had a whip as well as a sword?

The Balrogs were demons who served Sauron's original master, Morgoth, orginator of all evil and the first dark lord. At the Battle of Sudden Flame Glaurung the Golden Father of Dragons, led the way, followed by Balrogs and hordes of orcs.

After Mogorth's final defeat hordes of elves were released from his fortress where they had been enslaved as workers and smiths for decades and centuries. So Morgoth wanted prisoners as slave workers. One theory about the origin of orcs is that they were captured elves who had been corrupted by Morgoth. So Morgoth may have wanted many elf prisoners in the hope of turning them into orcs after thousands of years.
In battle the Balrogs were used against elfen and human infantry and cavalry like mechas would have been used against infantry and cavalry. Since Morgoth gave his Balrogs whips as well as swords they may have been ordered to whip many enemies into submission to take prisoner.
this is a pointless few paragraphs

Mechas used to break infantry lines could be armed with thousands of feet of whips to be unreeled to any desired length. The whips could have thousands of tiny sedative-injecting needles (like jelllyfish tenticles) and/or shocking electrodes. When the enemy broke and ran the mechas could pursue them whipping them into unconsciousness for capture by the following troops.
How many infantry lines did we see?
How many were backed up by Tanks? Mechas? Helicopters?
Your theory may be somewhat sound but really has little practicality versus the high armour targets normally shown

If the mechas have a good nonlethal sleep gas and fear gas they can release invisible fear gas over a wide area and sleep gas (with some additive to make it visible) over a smaller area closer to them. When the enemy affected by the fear gas see their fellows falling down unconscious they will assume they have been killed by poison gas and run away in panic.

Dude 2 word
Gas masks

In Code geass when the Britannians had a monopoly on nightmares they may have been used to break enemy infantry lines in similar ways, possibly using nonlethal weapons.
The enemy still had large tanks and armoured columns
And LTL then requires you to house/detain all of those thousands of prisoners.
There are such things as overloading your own troops with prisoners to the point where all your military force is busy and the enemy is left the perfect chance to counterattack.

Anyway, the point of this thread is that mechas are unlike tanks, jet planes, helicopter gunships, etc, etc. in that they have hands that are usually very capable.
However the use of the hands can be impractical and unneeded.

If an unarmed enemy is standing right at the feet of your mecha, you can't say that you have to kill him because your mecha has no nonlethal weapons or they are out of service. You can always pick up the enemy in the hand of your mecha and capture him instead of killing him.
Ok first you say Unarmed.
Euphemia wasn't unarmed so that point is destroyed
Secondly you assume the person want to take prisoners.
It isn't as cut and dried as "Oh take them prisoner"
Then What?
You have taken part of your mecha out of service and now have to negotiate a hostile zone whilst trying to protect a person held in your mechas hand.
And what is the benefit of doing this?
So you can feel a little better?
Scant excuse for a person in a war zone.

If you can provide a decent example of why? How? when? a person would simply try to capture prisoners in a war zone using an oversized tin can with fingers then you may be able to provide a decent point.

at the moment however I see no contradiction in weapons of war being used to kill and not simply save every random in their way.

wolfgirl90
10-18-2009, 02:38 PM
Okay, AGAIN, Lelouch did not want to capture Euphemia. THAT was never an option that popped to his head. Since he really can't use Euphemia as a bargaining chip, the BEST option in that situation was to give the Japanese what they wanted: Euphemia's death and to use that death to start a riot and have the Japanese turn towards his cause. And I don't know where you live, but someone does not commit genocide and still have the support of the people who were involved. Those people would want that person dead. Not a prisoner. Dead.

Note: I have already explained that using Euphemia as bargaining tool wouldn't really work since Cornelia can't give away Japan in exchange for her sister. Cornelia is the Viceroy, a representative of the REAL owner: Charles. Only Charles would be able to do an exchange like that (the minute Cornelia would try it, Charles would step in). This includes using Euphemia to stop the fighting since, again, Charles easily trumps Cornelia's power. And since Charles was more than content to watch his daughter slaughter thousands of people, he was certainly not beyond sacrificing her to fulfill his own purposes (he has shown several times that he does not care about his children AT ALL).

Second Note: Euphemia could command soldiers but ONLY because she was the Sub-Viceroy and had to be obeyed by both citizens and military personnel. Cornelia is both the Viceroy and the Chief General (meaning she is actually IS in the military...and one of very few members of the Imperial family who actually is) so Cornelia trumps Euphemia in that regard (in that she is higher in rank than Euphemia and is an high-ranking officer [well, the HIGHEST one] who has been trained to lead).

By the way, again, you should be more specific about what you are talking about. Yes, soldiers have been tried for killing certain enemies but killing the person is not really not what got them into trouble; other circumstances played a part (something I am not about to go into right now). Otherwise, one does not get in trouble for merely shooting a hostile enemy. I mean, that is what happens during a war. During a huge battle, yes, IT IS fair game at that point and, with the exception such obvious rules such as not using a tank to kill one person or using poison to kill, there really aren't that many rules about killing an enemy plenty of rules for including the death of an officer (there are plenty of rules for POWs however). While you are using your world as an example, your world does not represent the real world nor every anime world. For example, in YOUR world, a soldier killing an enemy officer is a punishable offense. In the real world, it is not.:closedeye

The assumption that you running on (you are really good at making assumptions and using those [wrong] assumptions as fact) is that military forces take (or should take) prisoners in every single mission and should therefore be equipped for such a thing. As I have pointed out to you, the military does not do this. If prisoners ARE taken, it is a result of the mission, not the mission itself, and the soldiers are the ones equipped for securing prisoners, not a tank in the distance somewhere. Tanks are for blowing things up and carrying soldiers, not for temporary POW holding cells.:rolleyes:

As MangaFanGuy pointed out, the Britannian forces were not ones to show mercy to other belligerent forces (that is called "giving no quarter" which, in the real world, is a war crime; however, since Code Geass takes place in a fictional universe, ALL the laws of war in our world do not and can not be applied...so stop trying). Taking prisoners was not an option; killing them all in a hell-storm of bullets was. So Knightmares were not equipped with devices to hold prisoners or to simply "knockout" their opponents.:rolleyes:

In your example, Shinji Ikari (very original name, by the way) did not commit a war crime (and therefore murder, as murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of a another human being) as the female officer was still armed at the time. Section II, Chapter I, Article 23 of the Hague Convention (yes, I am applying real world laws to your example, since you apparently want to bring them up) states that a soldier is prohibited from killing or wounding an enemy that is unarmed or, having lost their defenses, has surrendered at discretion (meaning that Shinji stated that she needed to surrender and she accepted it).

The female officer, while appearing to give a truce, was still armed at the time (if she put down her gun before hand, this would be a different story). Shinji is not obligated to accept whatever form of truce that was given to him, even if he felt safe during the situation or not (Section II, Chapter III, Article 33 of the Hague Convention), and was even allowed to defend himself if he felt threatened (either for his life or of being taken advantage of for information; remember Rei Ikari was the one armed at the time) and thus, at most, he is guilty of insubordination for going against orders and for not carrying his gun and not murder.

Third Note: Shinji WOULD have been guilty of a war crime if he had indeed "blast[ed] [General Ikari] to atoms with [his] mega-cannon", as per the provisions given in the Hague Convention, but either he lied the whole time or you changed the story to match that of Code Geass since the camera on his mech showed him killing her with her pistol, not his "mega cannon". Keep your stories straight.:rolleyes:

Fourth Note: In the military, many procedures are taken before a mission. This includes making sure that everyone's arms are up to regulation (and that fact that they HAVE them in the first place). Shinji Ikari would not have gotten away with not have having his gun on him (not for that long anyway), especially when there was a camera on his mech.

Also, I find it hard to believe that this Shinji Ikari, who has shown that he only a few steps above idiot during his tribunal (using a power unit from a mech blaster to power a coffee machine is one thing that would be considered "stupid"), also had the balls to mercilessly kill his own daughter. And not by firing a "mega-cannon" at her from the safety of his mech but by shooting her dead blank WITH HER OWN GUN (after she even hugged him)!! Try developing your characters more.:rolleyes:

proEuphie
10-24-2009, 12:11 AM
I fail to see what this has to do with anything?
You cannot make up Mechas for one world and then apply their ideas to anouther.
If (Like is the obvious case) you are trying to compare them to britannian forces I think you are sadly mistaken.
In that regard the images we saw of the original invasion showed their mechas were never intended to be peaceful machines at all and were always equipped with lethal weaponry and not LTL for capturing civilians.
Also the readiness of Brittanian forces to massacre civilians means it is unlikely they ever considered LTL and so bears little to no relationship to your own example.

this is a pointless few paragraphs

How many infantry lines did we see?
How many were backed up by Tanks? Mechas? Helicopters?
Your theory may be somewhat sound but really has little practicality versus the high armour targets normally shown

Dude 2 word
Gas masks

The enemy still had large tanks and armoured columns
And LTL then requires you to house/detain all of those thousands of prisoners.
There are such things as overloading your own troops with prisoners to the point where all your military force is busy and the enemy is left the perfect chance to counterattack.

However the use of the hands can be impractical and unneeded.

Ok first you say Unarmed.
Euphemia wasn't unarmed so that point is destroyed
Secondly you assume the person want to take prisoners.
It isn't as cut and dried as "Oh take them prisoner"
Then What?
You have taken part of your mecha out of service and now have to negotiate a hostile zone whilst trying to protect a person held in your mechas hand.
And what is the benefit of doing this?
So you can feel a little better?
Scant excuse for a person in a war zone.

If you can provide a decent example of why? How? when? a person would simply try to capture prisoners in a war zone using an oversized tin can with fingers then you may be able to provide a decent point.

at the moment however I see no contradiction in weapons of war being used to kill and not simply save every random in their way.

For someone with military interests you forgot to point out that my original story of the court martial left out a very important factor to save space and because it was not relevant to the situation of Zero and Euphemia.

Do you wish to point out what that is?

proEuphie
10-24-2009, 12:20 AM
Okay, AGAIN, Lelouch did not want to capture Euphemia. THAT was never an option that popped to his head. Since he really can't use Euphemia as a bargaining chip, the BEST option in that situation was to give the Japanese what they wanted: Euphemia's death and to use that death to start a riot and have the Japanese turn towards his cause. And I don't know where you live, but someone does not commit genocide and still have the support of the people who were involved. Those people would want that person dead. Not a prisoner. Dead.

Note: I have already explained that using Euphemia as bargaining tool wouldn't really work since Cornelia can't give away Japan in exchange for her sister. Cornelia is the Viceroy, a representative of the REAL owner: Charles. Only Charles would be able to do an exchange like that (the minute Cornelia would try it, Charles would step in). This includes using Euphemia to stop the fighting since, again, Charles easily trumps Cornelia's power. And since Charles was more than content to watch his daughter slaughter thousands of people, he was certainly not beyond sacrificing her to fulfill his own purposes (he has shown several times that he does not care about his children AT ALL).

Second Note: Euphemia could command soldiers but ONLY because she was the Sub-Viceroy and had to be obeyed by both citizens and military personnel. Cornelia is both the Viceroy and the Chief General (meaning she is actually IS in the military...and one of very few members of the Imperial family who actually is) so Cornelia trumps Euphemia in that regard (in that she is higher in rank than Euphemia and is an high-ranking officer [well, the HIGHEST one] who has been trained to lead).

By the way, again, you should be more specific about what you are talking about. Yes, soldiers have been tried for killing certain enemies but killing the person is not really not what got them into trouble; other circumstances played a part (something I am not about to go into right now). Otherwise, one does not get in trouble for merely shooting a hostile enemy. I mean, that is what happens during a war. During a huge battle, yes, IT IS fair game at that point and, with the exception such obvious rules such as not using a tank to kill one person or using poison to kill, there really aren't that many rules about killing an enemy plenty of rules for including the death of an officer (there are plenty of rules for POWs however). While you are using your world as an example, your world does not represent the real world nor every anime world. For example, in YOUR world, a soldier killing an enemy officer is a punishable offense. In the real world, it is not.:closedeye

The assumption that you running on (you are really good at making assumptions and using those [wrong] assumptions as fact) is that military forces take (or should take) prisoners in every single mission and should therefore be equipped for such a thing. As I have pointed out to you, the military does not do this. If prisoners ARE taken, it is a result of the mission, not the mission itself, and the soldiers are the ones equipped for securing prisoners, not a tank in the distance somewhere. Tanks are for blowing things up and carrying soldiers, not for temporary POW holding cells.:rolleyes:

As MangaFanGuy pointed out, the Britannian forces were not ones to show mercy to other belligerent forces (that is called "giving no quarter" which, in the real world, is a war crime; however, since Code Geass takes place in a fictional universe, ALL the laws of war in our world do not and can not be applied...so stop trying). Taking prisoners was not an option; killing them all in a hell-storm of bullets was. So Knightmares were not equipped with devices to hold prisoners or to simply "knockout" their opponents.:rolleyes:

In your example, Shinji Ikari (very original name, by the way) did not commit a war crime (and therefore murder, as murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of a another human being) as the female officer was still armed at the time. Section II, Chapter I, Article 23 of the Hague Convention (yes, I am applying real world laws to your example, since you apparently want to bring them up) states that a soldier is prohibited from killing or wounding an enemy that is unarmed or, having lost their defenses, has surrendered at discretion (meaning that Shinji stated that she needed to surrender and she accepted it).

The female officer, while appearing to give a truce, was still armed at the time (if she put down her gun before hand, this would be a different story). Shinji is not obligated to accept whatever form of truce that was given to him, even if he felt safe during the situation or not (Section II, Chapter III, Article 33 of the Hague Convention), and was even allowed to defend himself if he felt threatened (either for his life or of being taken advantage of for information; remember Rei Ikari was the one armed at the time) and thus, at most, he is guilty of insubordination for going against orders and for not carrying his gun and not murder.

Third Note: Shinji WOULD have been guilty of a war crime if he had indeed "blast[ed] [General Ikari] to atoms with [his] mega-cannon", as per the provisions given in the Hague Convention, but either he lied the whole time or you changed the story to match that of Code Geass since the camera on his mech showed him killing her with her pistol, not his "mega cannon". Keep your stories straight.:rolleyes:

Fourth Note: In the military, many procedures are taken before a mission. This includes making sure that everyone's arms are up to regulation (and that fact that they HAVE them in the first place). Shinji Ikari would not have gotten away with not have having his gun on him (not for that long anyway), especially when there was a camera on his mech.

Also, I find it hard to believe that this Shinji Ikari, who has shown that he only a few steps above idiot during his tribunal (using a power unit from a mech blaster to power a coffee machine is one thing that would be considered "stupid"), also had the balls to mercilessly kill his own daughter. And not by firing a "mega-cannon" at her from the safety of his mech but by shooting her dead blank WITH HER OWN GUN (after she even hugged him)!! Try developing your characters more.:rolleyes:

For someone with military interests you forgot to point out that my original story of the court martial left out a very important factor to save space and because it was not relevant to the situation of Zero and Euphemia.

Do you wish to point out what that is?

MangaFanGuy
10-24-2009, 03:49 AM
For someone with military interests you forgot to point out that my original story of the court martial left out a very important factor to save space and because it was not relevant to the situation of Zero and Euphemia.

Do you wish to point out what that is?
:closedeyeOh please be so kind as to enlighten me.
Or unless my original guess is wrong the original post had to with Mechas picking people to capture them and a story with vague resemblance to Euphie and Lelouch.
It also had end ending part about LTL capabilities on mechas

Your final questions were also desgined around the idea of picking people up which in a war and with no redeemable reasons is pointless.

B Gundam
10-24-2009, 08:30 AM
I wonder if there is any anime in which a military force uses mecha equipped with nonlethal weapons for capturing prisoners whenever possible, with or without other, lethal weapons for killing enemies. I wonder if there is any anime mecha force or individual mecha pilot known to certainly not have any nonlethal weapons for capturing prisoners.
You capture enemies by holding lethal weapons at them and see if they surrender. You're somewhat overly obsessed with keeping everything alive (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidGood). Yeah its an ideal, but war is war and not a game of dodgeball because you kill and destroy.


Is there any anime character who stupidly let an enemy run away to safety when he could have simply picked up the enemy in the hand of his mecha?
Photon Lab corps: "No Kouji! We can find the location of Bardos Island if you let it escape!"

Also, while this always seems pretty easy in certain mecha anime, doing so without squishing the target is rather problematic. the Mecha's hand isn't yours, its solid and hard and doesn't feel. You can only put the hand down open if people are willing to walk onto it. But someone trying to run away, well, you're just gonna squish him at the attempt unless you have extreme state of art control over the unit.


Is there any anime character who killed someone he could have captured by simply picking him up in the hand of his mecha?
Uso, when he was down to one infanterist in Angel Halo, he responded to shooting his back by vaporising her with a beam sabre.

Wufei *shoud have* done this to Treize. But he jumped out to duel him instead and... yeah.

Kouji would have done that to Ashura if not for the above.

Sousuke: "If potentially posing any further threat the logical step is to neutralize the target."

Ryouma: *goes axe-crazy on feeble old man Saotome in his Getter one*
It just didn't work, but its not like Ryouma knew it wouldn't work.

Not to mention thats why Ben Barberry died.

And Euphemia.

wolfgirl90
11-03-2009, 08:35 PM
For someone with military interests you forgot to point out that my original story of the court martial left out a very important factor to save space and because it was not relevant to the situation of Zero and Euphemia.

Do you wish to point out what that is?

Technically, I am not a person with military interests; I am already IN the military. "Militarily inclined" might be a better phrase to use.

Also, considering that 1) your story is so full of holes and inconsistencies that it can barely be used as a comparison of anything, whether fact or fiction and that 2) YOU are the person telling the story, the person who created the thread and, therefore, the person who has the burden of proof, I do not have (nor should I have to) point out anything in your rather pointless story. Hell, I have already done a little bit already:

1. Shinji Ikari would not have gotten away with not having his gun if it was a policy to have it on him at all times. Not having a military-issued weapon on you when you are supposed to is something that is rather hard for anyone to overlook. So its amazing that the first time that anyone found out about it was when the footage was reviewed (again, if you are going to apply real-world military policy, you need to be aware of it).

2. For some reason, Shinji chose to lie about how he killed Rei (actually either he lied about it or it is something you didn't catch). Neither the prosecutor nor anyone else catches this lie. Had he actually killed Rei in the manner in which he stated, he would indeed be guilty of a war crime.

3. Since Rei is a general, she either should be 1) not on the battlefield at all or 2) in a mech that distinguishes her as a general. If there is a standard order for generals to be captured, why would her mech have been destroyed in such a manner? Hell, what sense does it make for her to even be there in the first place?;)

4. Shinji is one of most incompetent military officers I have read about, from powering a coffee machine with a mech blaster power unit to breaking a steel cable net during a bet (not to mention his almost Looney Tune-ish reaction when he found out that he might be convicted of murder). To subsequently believe that he would also kill his daughter in cold blood would be pushing it.:rolleyes:

5. Speaking of Rei, I also find it amazing that she was the general of ANYTHING considering her reaction, from the resigned attitude (seriously?) to the hug. Also, I don't understand how she would outrank her father by such an outrageous amount considering her age. Using real-world ranks (whether Japanese or American), she would outrank her father by a full 4 ranks (assuming that she is but one general and not the General of the Army). To put in prospective, one doesn't get to the rank of "Colonel" until after about 22 years of service, around 35-40 years old (to go higher to Brigadier General, you have to be recommended); unless the Azurian Army is so seriously desperate that they would have anyone with a pulse as a general, Rei must be one amazing person to outrank her own father by a full 4 ranks. Again, I think it was one of those things you decided to add for the sake adding without truly knowing anything about it.:rolleyes:

6. You are using this fictional story in order to make a more than obvious allusion to Code Geass. You are also using this fictional story as proof of your accuracy on how Code Geass (and the world) should work, despite the fact that both the story and Code Geass are fictional and have absolutely no baring whatsoever on the real world, as no real world laws can be applied to either one.

You have the burden of proof here, not me (as you are the one making the point in the first place), so if there is something else that I missed, you need to catch it, not me.

Although, I seriously doubt that there is anything that you could tell me now that would change anything about your hopeless story.:closedeye

proEuphie
11-11-2009, 10:28 PM
Okay, AGAIN, Lelouch did not want to capture Euphemia. THAT was never an option that popped to his head. Since he really can't use Euphemia as a bargaining chip, the BEST option in that situation was to give the Japanese what they wanted: Euphemia's death and to use that death to start a riot and have the Japanese turn towards his cause. And I don't know where you live, but someone does not commit genocide and still have the support of the people who were involved. Those people would want that person dead. Not a prisoner. Dead.

Lelouch should have wanted to capture Euphemia, since that would have been more humane than killing her.

Saying that there is no point in describing how Lelouch could have captured Euphemia because Lelouch never thought of capturing Euphemia is the same thing as saying that there is no point in showing how Hitler and the Nazis could have kept the European Jews, Gypsies, etc. etc. alive and used theirs skills for the benefit of the Nazis because Hitler and the Nazis never considered not exterminating the Jews, Gypsies, etc. etc. as soon as possible. In both cases proving that the accused clearly had alternatives to killing proves they killed because they wanted to kill, not because they had to kill or gained something from killing.

Below I show that Lelouch could use Euphemia as a bargaining chip and actually tried to do so in an earlier episode.

After the Fuji massacre started Lelouch escaped in his powerful Gawain nightmare -- they didn't show if he tried to stop the massacre using the Gawain or just left as fast as he could. When he returned with the Black Knights thousands of Japanese were already dead and the Britannians were scattered to hunt down and kill fleeing Japanese. Lelouch did not need to kill Euphemia to start a riot. By this time the fighting was already far beyond what could be called a riot.

The Black Knights were cheered by Japanese civilians as they arrived and began to fight the Britannians. Clearly rescuing the survivors of the Fuji Massacre made the Black Knights very popular. Lelouch told the Kyoto Group they would have to obey him or die, taking control of all the rebels, and gave his speech in the stadium declaring a new Japan when none of the Japanese knew if Euphemia was alive or dead.

Lelouch began to mark on Tokyo with the Black Knights and all the other Japanese Resistance groups which joined him, eager to take advantage of this chance to capture the capitol. Lelouch planned to invite the Emperor to a meeting (and now doubt use his geass to take over Britannia) as soon as they proclaimed Japanese Independence in the Tokyo Government Center.

Lelouch's plan only required the support of the Black Knights and of the other rebel groups with military weapons and trained warriors, and only for a comparatively short time until the visit from the Emperor which Lelouch expected. Lelouch had far more support from the Japanese public than he needed, even before the japanese knew that he had fatally wounded Euphemia. Lelouch did not need to murder Euphemia to get much more popularity than his plan required.

To be continued.


Note: I have already explained that using Euphemia as bargaining tool wouldn't really work since Cornelia can't give away Japan in exchange for her sister. Cornelia is the Viceroy, a representative of the REAL owner: Charles. Only Charles would be able to do an exchange like that (the minute Cornelia would try it, Charles would step in). This includes using Euphemia to stop the fighting since, again, Charles easily trumps Cornelia's power. And since Charles was more than content to watch his daughter slaughter thousands of people, he was certainly not beyond sacrificing her to fulfill his own purposes (he has shown several times that he does not care about his children AT ALL).

But Lelouch did try to use Euphemia as a hostage, in "Island of the Gods" just a few days before the Fuji Massacre. Lelouch expected it to work then, and nothing seemed to have happened to change his mind about it.

You say that Cornelia could not grant independence to Japan, implying that if the maximum possible goal could not be achieved there would be no point in using Euphemia as a hostage. I remind you that president Santa Anna of Mexico (who ordered a massacre of surrendered Texans at Goliad) did not own Texas and had no right to grant Texan independence, but he he did anyway after being captured by the Texans. And he repudiated his treaty after being set free, as did his successors, but the Mexicans could not get their political and military act together enough to invade Texas before the US annexed Texas ten years later.

And Charles's lack of love for his children would not keep the Britannians on the spot from making some concessions to save Euphemia.

To quote from my post # 179 in "Did Euphemia Escape from the control of her Geass Before Lelouch Shot Her?":

"You keep saying that because Emperor Charles doe not love his children Lelouch could not use her as a hostage. Emperor Charles was not in Japan and he was not in his office at Pendragon ready to answer a phone call from Tokyo. Instead he was up in the clouds somewhere observing everything which went on and unable to quickly give orders.

In the next episode Prince Odysseus was seen dealing with the situation in Pendragon because the Emperor was still absent. So the question becomes how much do Suzaku, Cornelia, and Odyseuss love Euphie, not how much Charles Loves her."

In the next episode Lloyd dangled the keys of the Lancelot, refusing to let Suazku have them, and Suzaku punched Lloyd and took the keys to go get revenge on Lelouch for murdering Euphemia. It seems probably that Suzaku would have defied orders and punched Lloyd to take the Lancelot to met Zero and save Euphemia's life, even if it meant handing the Lancelot over to Zero.

I say that Lelouch should have believed the odds of success using Euphemia as a hostage to stop the fighting at Fuji were so great that not doing so makes Lelouch guilty of murdering every Japanese person who was killed after he could have captured Euphemia and used her as a hostage to stop the massacre.




[I]Second Note: Euphemia could command soldiers but ONLY because she was the Sub-Viceroy and had to be obeyed by both citizens and military personnel. Cornelia is both the Viceroy and the Chief General (meaning she is actually IS in the military...and one of very few members of the Imperial family who actually is) so Cornelia trumps Euphemia in that regard (in that she is higher in rank than Euphemia and is an high-ranking officer [well, the HIGHEST one] who has been trained to lead).


By the way, again, you should be more specific about what you are talking about. Yes, soldiers have been tried for killing certain enemies but killing the person is not really not what got them into trouble; other circumstances played a part (something I am not about to go into right now). Otherwise, one does not get in trouble for merely shooting a hostile enemy. I mean, that is what happens during a war. During a huge battle, yes, IT IS fair game at that point and, with the exception such obvious rules such as not using a tank to kill one person or using poison to kill, there really aren't that many rules about killing an enemy plenty of rules for including the death of an officer (there are plenty of rules for POWs however). While you are using your world as an example, your world does not represent the real world nor every anime world. For example, in YOUR world, a soldier killing an enemy officer is a punishable offense. In the real world, it is not.:closedeye


The assumption that you running on (you are really good at making assumptions and using those [wrong] assumptions as fact) is that military forces take (or should take) prisoners in every single mission and should therefore be equipped for such a thing. As I have pointed out to you, the military does not do this. If prisoners ARE taken, it is a result of the mission, not the mission itself, and the soldiers are the ones equipped for securing prisoners, not a tank in the distance somewhere. Tanks are for blowing things up and carrying soldiers, not for temporary POW holding cells.:rolleyes:


As MangaFanGuy pointed out, the Britannian forces were not ones to show mercy to other belligerent forces (that is called "giving no quarter" which, in the real world, is a war crime; however, since Code Geass takes place in a fictional universe, ALL the laws of war in our world do not and can not be applied...so stop trying). Taking prisoners was not an option; killing them all in a hell-storm of bullets was. So Knightmares were not equipped with devices to hold prisoners or to simply "knockout" their opponents.:rolleyes:


In your example, Shinji Ikari (very original name, by the way) did not commit a war crime (and therefore murder, as murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of a another human being) as the female officer was still armed at the time. Section II, Chapter I, Article 23 of the Hague Convention (yes, I am applying real world laws to your example, since you apparently want to bring them up) states that a soldier is prohibited from killing or wounding an enemy that is unarmed or, having lost their defenses, has surrendered at discretion (meaning that Shinji stated that she needed to surrender and she accepted it).

are you sure you are reading the same article 23 as I just found:
Article 23
Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially prohibited:--
To employ poison or poisoned arms;
To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;
To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
To declare that no quarter will be given;
To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury;
To make improper use of a flag of truce, the national flag, or military ensigns and the enemy's uniform, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;
To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war.


The female officer, while appearing to give a truce, was still armed at the time (if she put down her gun before hand, this would be a different story). Shinji is not obligated to accept whatever form of truce that was given to him, even if he felt safe during the situation or not (Section II, Chapter III, Article 33 of the Hague Convention), and was even allowed to defend himself if he felt threatened (either for his life or of being taken advantage of for information; remember Rei Ikari was the one armed at the time) and thus, at most, he is guilty of insubordination for going against orders and for not carrying his gun and not murder.

Article 23 prohibits killing or wounding any enemy who lays down their arms or loses their means of defense and surrenders at discretion. It says that it is always illegal to kill someone in such circumstances. It says nothing about whether it is always legal to kill an enemy who is armed. Obviously article 23 leaves open the possibility that there might be rare circumstances when it is illegal to kill an armed enemy.

And another part of article 23 gives one situation when it is prohibited to kill or wound an a enemy soldier or civilian: "To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army" This sentence does not state that it applies only to unarmed soldiers and civilians. And it does not specifically define treachery.

There are elements of treachery in both Shinji Ikari's killing of Rei Ikari and Lelouch's killing of Euphemia. Thus there seems a strong probability that such cases would be tried as murder and possibly result in convictions in our world.

Article 33
The Chief to whom a flag of truce is sent is not obliged to receive it in all circumstances.
He can take all steps necessary to prevent the envoy taking advantage of his mission to obtain information.
In case of abuse, he has the right to detain the envoy temporarily.
Article 34
The envoy loses his rights of inviolability if it is proved beyond doubt that he has taken advantage of his privileged position to provoke or commit an act of treachery.

This does not say that an officer has the right to kill someone he suspects of misusing a flag of truce. It gives him the right to detain him and keep him from sending information back to his side.



[I]Third Note: Shinji WOULD have been guilty of a war crime if he had indeed "blast[ed] [General Ikari] to atoms with [his] mega-cannon", as per the provisions given in the Hague Convention, but either he lied the whole time or you changed the story to match that of Code Geass since the camera on his mech showed him killing her with her pistol, not his "mega cannon". Keep your stories straight.:rolleyes:

I didn't change my story about how Shinji killed Rei. I didn't change it from blasting her with
the mega-cannon to shooting her with a pistol. Here is the section of my story from my opening post:

"The video opened with pieces of a destroyed mecha raining to the ground and a mecha pilot parachuting to safety, having ejected in time. The pilot landed and disengaged from the parachute. She walked toward the camera and stopped about thirty feet away and twenty feet lower than the camera. She unholstered her pistol and held it out by the barrel with a resigned expression on her pretty young face. Her blue flight suit was wet with sweat and stuck closely to her.

Colonel Ikari appeared on the ground walking away from the camera and toward the Azurian officer, who looked surprised, then ran up to Ikari and hugged him Colonel Ikari in his green flight suit pushed her away from, snatched the pistol out of her hand, and shot her with it. There was a startled expression her faces as she crumbled to the ground..

Prosecutor Mombuto: “Notice that Colonel Ikari is not wearing his holster or pistol, which is against regulations and an indication that he felt perfectly safe in the situation.”

Colonel Ikari turned back toward the camera and walked back to his off screen mecha. After a few seconds a blast from his off screen mega-cannon blasted the enemy officer’s body to atoms."

There. You see that I wrote that Colonel Ikari killed General Ikari by shooting her (fatally or non fatally) with her pistol, causing her to fall to the ground, and then blasting her living or already dead body to atoms with his mega cannon.

You assumed that General Ikari died almost instantly when Colonel Ikari shot her in an unspecified part of her body. I can just imagine you doing triage: "He's motionless and so either unconscious or dead, therefore he must be dead, don't waste any time on him."



Fourth Note: In the military, many procedures are taken before a mission. This includes making sure that everyone's arms are up to regulation (and that fact that they HAVE them in the first place). Shinji Ikari would not have gotten away with not have having his gun on him (not for that long anyway), especially when there was a camera on his mech.

Also, I find it hard to believe that this Shinji Ikari, who has shown that he only a few steps above idiot during his tribunal (using a power unit from a mech blaster to power a coffee machine is one thing that would be considered "stupid"), also had the balls to mercilessly kill his own daughter. And not by firing a "mega-cannon" at her from the safety of his mech but by shooting her dead blank WITH HER OWN GUN (after she even hugged him)!! Try developing your characters more.:rolleyes:

wolfgirl90
11-15-2009, 01:11 PM
Umm...protip: if you are not going to say anything about certain parts of my post, then don't quote them. Your posts are already long, no point in making them longer by quoting me over and over and not say anything.


Saying that there is no point in describing how Lelouch could have captured Euphemia because Lelouch never thought of capturing Euphemia is the same thing as saying that there is no point in showing how Hitler and the Nazis could have kept the European Jews, Gypsies, etc. etc. alive and used theirs skills for the benefit of the Nazis because Hitler and the Nazis never considered not exterminating the Jews, Gypsies, etc. etc. as soon as possible.

You can show alternatives all you want...in a discussion that deals with them. If you are having a discussion about how Hitler could have kept the Jews and gypsies alive, then you can discuss it all you want. However, if you having a discussion about what ACTUALLY happened, then showing alternatives to something that never happened is pointless. It doesn't prove anything. It doesn't move the discussion forward.

Same thing with Lelouch. If we were having a discussion about how Lelouch COULD have saved Euphemia's life, then you would be welcome to share whatever ideas you had. However, since we discussing events that ACTUALLY happened and since Lelouch was not going to save Euphemia in the first place, there is no point in giving alternatives on how he could have done something that was wasn't going to happen. You are not helping your own discussion (if it could honestly be called such).:rolleyes:


Lelouch did not need to kill Euphemia to start a riot. By this time the fighting was already far beyond what could be called a riot.

Assuming he killed Euphemia to START the riot, which is not the case. He killed her to make Japanese come to his side, not to start a riot (the original plan was to start a riot).


Lelouch did not need to murder Euphemia to get much more popularity than his plan required.

Again, that is something that can argued about for a long time. Whether he HAD to kill Euphemia or not can be debated all day. HOWEVER, since he DID kill Euphemia, that is all that really matters right now. You can discuss it as a possible plot hole, but that is it. It doesn't really change what happened in the series (or make you anymore right than you are now...which is barely).


But Lelouch did try to use Euphemia as a hostage, in "Island of the Gods" just a few days before the Fuji Massacre. Lelouch expected it to work then, and nothing seemed to have happed to change his mind about it.

Granted, in that episode, he was using her to merely stop the fighting; you have been suggesting that he use her as a way for Britannia to give back Japan altogether, something I have debunked more than once.:closedeye


I remind you that president Santa Anna of Mexico (who ordered a massacre of surrendered Texans at Goliad) did not own Texas and had no right to grant Texan independence, but he he did anyway after being captured by the Texans. And he repudiated his treaty after being set free, as did his successors, but the Mexicans could not get their political and military act together enough to invade Texas before the US annexed Texas ten years later.

I have said this before and I will say it again: nice try. As the President of Mexico, Santa Anna DID "own" Texas, but they seceded, declaring themselves an independent republic. After the war, Santa Anna did not "give" them independence (since they technically already had it) but rather recognized the independence they had. Cornelia can't do the same thing as a Viceroy (you are basically comparing apples and oranges...and using real-life applications for a fictional cartoon, the futility which being something I have already told you).

Also, the new Mexican government took away Santa Anna's power, which voided the Treaty of Velasco (Santa Anna can't back out of a treaty that technically never existed).


And Charles's lack of love for his children would not keep the Britannians on the spot from making some concessions to save Euphemia.

Unless Charles used his power to prevent them from doing so. Again, if you are making the argument about Euphemia being used to give the Japanese their land back, Lelouch would to deal with Charles and Charles wouldn't care about Euphemia (hell, it wouldn't be unlike him if he ordered her dead). Of course, the soldiers could ignore him at the blatant risk of insubordination, the punishment of which I can only guess at.


In the next episode Prince Odysseus was seen dealing with the situation in Pendragon because the Emperor was still absent. So the question becomes how much do Suzaku, Cornelia, and Odyseuss love Euphie, not how much Charles Loves her."

And if they have power they can readily exercise to get her back. Charles maybe "up in the clouds" but he is certainly not ignorant of what is going on and he is not that far away.


I say that Lelouch should have believed the odds of success using Euphemia as a hostage to stop the fighting at Fuji were so great that not doing so makes Lelouch guilty of murdering every Japanese person who was killed after he could have captured Euphemia and used her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

Again, what YOU SAY doesn't mean anything as long as you are either dead wrong or spouting crap. You are better off saying "in my [honest] opinion" instead of "I say"; this prevents you from sounding like you are four and looking stupid when you are wrong ("I say" makes it seem that you are right no matter what, which is certainly not the case as I have proven you wrong multiple times).:rolleyes:

So let me get this straight: since Lelouch didn't save Euphemia to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre, he is guilty of murdering every single Japanese that was killed, even though killing her ALSO stopped the massacre?! Yeah, again, nice try.:rolleyes:


It says nothing about whether it is always legal to kill an enemy who is armed.

That's because, right at the very beginning, it says this: "Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially prohibited..."

That part of the Hague Convention only mentions certain actions that are not already covered in special treaties and conventions; its not an exhaustive list. Since those treaties and conventions ALREADY list the prohibitions, there is no reason to repeat them here.


And another part of article 23 gives one situation when it is prohibited to kill or wound an a enemy soldier or civilian: "To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army" This sentence does not state that it applies only to unarmed soldiers and civilians. And it does not specifically define treachery.

AGAIN, it does not define "treachery" because that is something that has already been taught and explained to soldiers; its not going to be repeated again here. Also, this particular article only deals with SOLDIERS. Civilians are not part of it because, like I said before, this are entirely separate treaties and conventions (like the Fourth Geneva Convention) that deals with them (again, its not going to be repeated over and over).


There are elements of treachery in both Shinji Ikari's killing of Rei Ikari and Lelouch's killing of Euphemia. Thus there seems a strong probability that such cases would be tried as murder and possibly result in convictions in our world.

I guess, but since we are dealing with a world that you made up with circumstances that you also made up (and can therefore change), I am not about to argue with you on that (you can make up anything you want and change your posts; I am not about to argue about the definition of treachery in your story since you can obviously change it).:rolleyes:


This does not say that an officer has the right to kill someone he suspects of using a flag of truce. It gives him the right to detain him and keep him from sending information back to his side.

Umm...you may want to rewrite that. Its not merely someone who is using a flag of truce but someone who is abusing it for enemy advantage (ie obtaining information). The commanding officer does not have to accept the truce. They can detain the envoy, however, if its proven that the envoy has used the "truce" to obtain information and betray them, then the envoy has basically signed his own death warrant (at that point, he has lost inviolability, meaning no laws can protect him, even the ones that would have kept him from being killed).


I didn't change my story about how Shinji killed Rei. I didn't change it from blasting her with
the mega-cannon to shooting her with a pistol.

I know how the story goes, but it makes no sense for Shinji to have lied about the way he killed Rei since "blasting her with a mega-cannon" would have gotten him in significantly more trouble (depending on circumstances) than merely shooting her with a gun (your story only mentions that her mech was destroyed or rather seen falling in pieces; it doesn't make it completely clear whether Shinji shot her down or someone else did). In fact, if he was supposed to capture her anyway, why would he make it so blatantly clear that he went against orders (and made his situation significantly worse by blasting her), in yet be surprised that he is sitting in court (I'm assuming that he has the smarts and military expertise of a man of his rank not to do anything that dumb, despite evidence that proves that he one can short of a six pack)?


You assumed that General Ikari died almost instantly when Colonel Ikari shot her in an unspecified part of her body. I can just imagine you doing triage: "He's motionless and so either unconscious or dead, therefore he must be dead, don't waste any time on him."

Umm...was the triage thing pointed at me as an insult (considering that triage is a process used in every hospital emergency room and on the battlefield)? I don't get what you are driving at.

And yes, I did assume that General Ikari died since you did not describe anything about her after she was shot (other than the startled expression on her face). Heck, since this was an obvious allusion to Code Geass, I am rather surprised you didn't have her say "Father, why?" (a la Euphemia) before she was blasted.

If you going to mock me for assuming that someone died after being shot at POINT BLANK RANGE, then go right on ahead.:rolleyes:

Funkgun
11-16-2009, 01:18 AM
Watch Patlabor, they had Non Lethal billy stick type weapons that could be used along with lethal type weapons as well.

proEuphie
11-19-2009, 10:38 PM
Technically, I am not a person with military interests; I am already IN the military. "Militarily inclined" might be a better phrase to use.

Also, considering that 1) your story is so full of holes and inconsistencies that it can barely be used as a comparison of anything, whether fact or fiction and that 2) YOU are the person telling the story, the person who created the thread and, therefore, the person who has the burden of proof, I do not have (nor should I have to) point out anything in your rather pointless story. Hell, I have already done a little bit already:

So you say that people actually in the military are not a subgroup of "people with military interests"? If that is correct maybe you should explain to the brass in the Pentagon what it is about military service which causes recruits with military interests to lose all their military interests once they are in the service.

The factor which I omitted mentioning in my story is something which you might possibly have to decide whether or not to do sometimes during your military service, so I thought you might have thought of it by now.



1. Shinji Ikari would not have gotten away with not having his gun if it was a policy to have it on him at all times. Not having a military-issued weapon on you when you are supposed to is something that is rather hard for anyone to overlook. So its amazing that the first time that anyone found out about it was when the footage was reviewed (again, if you are going to apply real-world military policy, you need to be aware of it).

If Shini Ikari had no co-pilot or crew in his mecha there would be no one to stop him if he decided to take off his holster and gun before leaving his mecha.

Beside, I implied that the civil war had been going on for about a year (if the Ikaris chose their sides at the beginning) and there is no evidence whether the Ikaris or anyone else in their world had any previous military experience.

Amateur soldiers are not always up to the standards you expect in the modern professional military. In the US Civil war for example, General Turchin's wife once commanded his brigade while he was sick, completely against regulations, and a lot easier to notice than someone not carrying a pistol.

The two youngest Union drummer boys known to be killed both enlisted at the age of twelve, looked small and childlike, and were well known to the officers who enlisted them, yet are both described as eighteen in their official papers. Apparently the officers who enlisted them believed the regulations prohibited enlisting anyone younger than eighteen in the United States Volunteers and so simply exaggerated their ages by fifty percent.

Another famous twelve-year-old drummer boy was first mustered in during May-June of 1862 during the Peninsular Campaign with the note that he had enlisted in December 1861 and had done daily duty with his company, but had not been mustered in or paid because of the false belief that he was too young. Too young to be mustered in or paid, but old enough for hard and dangerous work. His records indicate that he was later very briefly enlisted in three different regiments at once.

Amateurs.

In About face: The Odyssey of an American Warrior by David H Hackworth, there is a lot of mention of the peacetime army's obsession with keeping units in top condition. Peacetime officers feared black marks on their records if they failed to keep all their men on duty or to properly account for them and if any military equipment was missing or malfunctioning.

But in Vietnam during war when units needed to be in top condition they often were not. In many cases a lot of men were absent for various reasons, a lot of equipment was missing or not working, and insufficient supplies were being supplied. Nobody seemed to notice or care about problems ten times worse than what would have ruined an officer's career during peacetime now that near perfection was actually needed.



2. For some reason, Shinji chose to lie about how he killed Rei (actually either he lied about it or it is something you didn't catch). Neither the prosecutor nor anyone else catches this lie. Had he actually killed Rei in the manner in which he stated, he would indeed be guilty of a war crime.

Since the evidence shows that Rei Ikari took the customary surrender posture in her world, and was very affectionate with Shini Ikari and thus did not seem very threatening, it seems to me that choosing to kill her with either method is equally murder.

Here are the statements from my story:

1) Colonel Ikari. It was not possible to capture the Azurian commander, so I had to blast her into atoms with my mega-cannon."

2)Colonel Ikari: "Well, the power unit on the battalion coffee machine was broken so I replaced it with the power unit from my mecha's sonic blaster, which was rarely used since we almost never see an enemy outside of the protection of his mecha. The replacement power unit arrived the Tuesday after the Madnug Battle. So you see, I had absolutely no way to capture the enemy general alive and I had to either just let her go or blast her to atoms with my mega-cannon."

3) Prosecutor Mombuto: "So you claim that you had no way to capture the enemy general alive, despite the fact that she was unarmed and just a couple of dozen feet away from your mecha?"

Colonel Ikari: "Yes, sir. It is impossible for a mecha pilot to capture an enemy if all three of his capture devices, the sonic blaster, the net thrower, and the sleep gas, are all disabled at the same time. It was just a tragic series of equipment failures at the same time which made it absolutely impossible for me to capture the enemy commander alive. I had no malice or criminal intent toward her.”

I see that prosecutor Mombuto described Rei Ikari as being unarmed. Either he was exaggerating or nobody considered a pistol to be the least bit dangerous to a mecha.

4) Colonel Ikari appeared on the ground walking away from the camera and toward the Azurian officer, who looked surprised, then ran up to Ikari and hugged him Colonel Ikari in his green flight suit pushed her away from, snatched the pistol out of her hand, and shot her with it. There was a startled expression her faces as she crumbled to the ground.

Prosecutor Mombuto: “Notice that Colonel Ikari is not wearing his holster or pistol, which is against regulations and an indication that he felt perfectly safe in the situation.”

Colonel Ikari turned back toward the camera and walked back to his off screen mecha. After a few seconds a blast from his off screen mega-cannon blasted the enemy officer’s body to atoms.

Apparently Shinji Ikari had to say that he had blasted Rei Ikari with his cannon to cover up that he had shot her with (her) pistol instead of accepting her surrender. And he did shoot her living or dead body with his mega-cannon to vaporize the evidence and probably leaving evidence that someone had been blasted there. So he had to claim that he had no way to capture her alive (apparently he would have claimed that she refused to surrender) and had no choice except blasting her to atoms.



3. Since Rei is a general, she either should be 1) not on the battlefield at all or 2) in a mech that distinguishes her as a general. If there is a standard order for generals to be captured, why would her mech have been destroyed in such a manner? Hell, what sense does it make for her to even be there in the first place?;)

I hear that in Code Geass Cornelia was the commanding general of the entire Britannian army. In any case she was a very high ranking military leader. No doubt you can quote posts where you have criticized her for being on the front lines in her nightmare in many battles.

As for why Rei Ikari's mecha would have been destroyed, we know that it was destroyed spectacularly but that Rei was able to eject and parachute to safety.

two possibilities:
A) If her cockpit was in the head Shinji Ikari might have exploded the legs and the lower torso, permitting Rei to safely eject.

B) Or perhaps Rei's Azurian mecha was badly damaged so she lassoed Shinji's Viridian mecha and turned on the winch to pull his mecha closer to her's, turned on the self destruct, and ejected. But Shinji realized what was happening and quickly used hes mega-cannon to blast the Azurian mecha into pieces which scattered away from his mecha right before the fragment with the self destruct mechanism exploded.


4. Shinji is one of most incompetent military officers I have read about, from powering a coffee machine with a mech blaster power unit to breaking a steel cable net during a bet (not to mention his almost Looney Tune-ish reaction when he found out that he might be convicted of murder). To subsequently believe that he would also kill his daughter in cold blood would be pushing it.:rolleyes:

If Rei Ikari was aged about 20 to 30 her father Shinji would probably be about forty five to sixty and probably too old to make silly bets when half drunk or to use a piece of military equipment for unauthorized purposes. But I could come up with some soap opera story of how Rei was Shinji's illegitimate daughter born when he was only fourteen. Her mother gave her up to an orphanage (or died in childbirth?) but when Shinji was an adult he found Rei and and raised her as his daughter.

That would make Shinji aged about thirty four to forty four at the time of the battle of Madug. I believe that in history a number of competent high ranking military officers of that age have still been young enough to be known for engaging in childish pranks and stupid drunken bets and other conduct unbecoming officers and gentlemen.

I haven't decided if Shinji killed Rei in cold blood. He might have gotten very excited during the previous portion of the Battle of Madnug.

It is possible that when Shinji saw that the Azurian was his daughter Rei, he decided to accept her surrender and use that chance to make up with her. So he may have left his gun behind in the cockpit of his mecha to reassure Rei or even give her the chance to turn the tables and capture him. But perhaps his old rage at her for choosing the Azurian side suddenly overcame him and he snatched her gun and shot her without premeditation. Then he would have blasted her body and lied about it to cover up his impulsive murder.


5. Speaking of Rei, I also find it amazing that she was the general of ANYTHING considering her reaction, from the resigned attitude (seriously?) to the hug. Also, I don't understand how she would outrank her father by such an outrageous amount considering her age. Using real-world ranks (whether Japanese or American), she would outrank her father by a full 4 ranks (assuming that she is but one general and not the General of the Army). To put in prospective, one doesn't get to the rank of "Colonel" until after about 22 years of service, around 35-40 years old (to go higher to Brigadier General, you have to be recommended); unless the Azurian Army is so seriously desperate that they would have anyone with a pulse as a general, Rei must be one amazing person to outrank her own father by a full 4 ranks. Again, I think it was one of those things you decided to add for the sake adding without truly knowing anything about it.:rolleyes:

Why shouldn't Rei Ikari have had a resigned expression when she prepared to surrender? If you wouldn't have resigned yourself to surrender in that situation, how would you have tried to defeat the Viridian mecha towering over you or escape from it?

And why should a young woman refrain from hugging her estranged father who she hasn't seen in a year merely because they are high ranking officers on opposite sides of a civil war? I am sure you can find example of male generals in the US Civil War, for example, hugging and otherwise being affectionate with old friends and close relatives they find as prisoners or otherwise happen to meet.

Your assumption that Rei was somehow at least four ranks higher than her father ignores the fact that most of the readers here are civilians and thus my story is written in Civilianese instead of Militaryese. The court martial would probably use the correct ranks of the characters but in Civilianese a Colonel can be a Lieutenant Colonel or a Colonel and a General is a general officer, a Brigadier General or higher. Thus it would be logical to assume that Rei out ranks her father by one rank (Colonel to Brigadier General) to five ranks (Lieutenant Colonel to General). Considering her age she is probably only a brigadier General or Major General.

The statement that people don't get to be Colonel until after abut 22 years of service is not as universally correct as you may think. In the army reorganization act of 1866 the youngest Civil War general, Uriah Galusha Pennypacker, became the youngest colonel in the history of the regular army. If he had 22 years of service by 1866 he would have began his service in 1844. His birth date is sometimes given as 1 June 1842 but more often as 1 June 1844.

IN the Viridian-Azurian Civil War any preexisting military would have ballooned in size as civilians were rapidly enlisted. Many regular military officers or civilians appointed to command would have had meteoric rises in rank during that civil war.


6. You are using this fictional story in order to make a more than obvious allusion to Code Geass. You are also using this fictional story as proof of your accuracy on how Code Geass (and the world) should work, despite the fact that both the story and Code Geass are fictional and have absolutely no baring whatsoever on the real world, as no real world laws can be applied to either one.

You have the burden of proof here, not me (as you are the one making the point in the first place), so if there is something else that I missed, you need to catch it, not me.

Although, I seriously doubt that there is anything that you could tell me now that would change anything about your hopeless story.:closedeye

proEuphie
11-20-2009, 10:52 PM
U
You can show alternatives all you want...in a discussion that deals with them. If you are having a discussion about how Hitler could have kept the Jews and gypsies alive, then you can discuss it all you want. However, if you having a discussion about what ACTUALLY happened, then showing alternatives to something that never happened is pointless. It doesn't prove anything. It doesn't move the discussion forward.

If for some strange reason you believed that Hitler and the Nazis had no possible alternative to exterminating the Jews, the Gypsies, etc. etc. than you would have to believe that the Holocaust was not a terrible crime but a tragic but necessary action. Since almost everyone believes that the Holocaust was one of the worst crimes in all of history, despite all the competition for places in top ten worst crimes in history lists, it can be deduced that almost everyone believes that Hitler and the Nazis had other and thus obviously better choices.

I don't see how it could be logically possible to claim that the Holocaust was a terrible crime and also to claim that Hitler and the Nazis had no other choices. Thus any discussion about how evil the Holocaust was must mention that it would have been possible for Hitler and the Nazis to not carry out the Holocaust.

If you object to all discussions of alternative actions in attempts to prove that the courses of action actually taken were not the best possible ones, you will not be open to constructive criticism and you will not learn from your mistakes. And you will not learn from all the mistakes in the history books and will be a less competent citizen than otherwise.

Your words: "However, if you having a discussion about what ACTUALLY happened, then showing alternatives to something that never happened is pointless. It doesn't prove anything. It doesn't move the discussion forward." are rather puzzling. If someone is discussing something which actually happened, then he is discussing something which is different from something that never happened. He is discussing an alternative to something which never happened. Thus all discussions of what actually happened are discussions of an alternative to what never happened.

Perhaps you went to write that showing alternatives to what ACTUALLY happened is pointless.


Same thing with Lelouch. If we were having a discussion about how Lelouch COULD have saved Euphemia's life, then you would be welcome to share whatever ideas you had. However, since we discussing events that ACTUALLY happened and since Lelouch was not going to save Euphemia in the first place, there is no point in giving alternatives on how he could have done something that was wasn't going to happen. You are not helping your own discussion (if it could honestly be called such).:rolleyes:

You know that the point of almost all my posts is to show that Lelouch wrongfully and evilly murdered Euphemia. If people believe that Lelouch had no other choice than to kill Euphemia then they would believe that it was a tragic but necessary action. Thus I have to show that Lelouch could have saved Euphemia to prove my point that he murdered Euphemia. Thus by saying that I shouldn't discuss alternatives to what actually happened you are trying to stop me from doing what is necessary to convince people that Lelouch murdered Euphemia.

You write: "and since Lelouch was not going to save Euphemia in the first place,". Exactly what do you mean about when Lelouch was not going to save Euphemia? Do you mean after the Fuji Massacre started and Lelouch started to follow what I call his plan three, a slightly modified version of the plan two which he was following up until he made peace with Euphemia and accepted the SAZ plan?

Or do you mean Lelouch's plan two, which he probably modified from his previous plan one (the coup plans he was working on at the beginning of episode 21) by changing the time and place of the violent incident that would start his revolution to the opening of the SAZ? Or do you mean that Lelouch never planned to save Euphemia during the planning for his plan one-- the coup plans he was working on at the start of episode 21?

or do you mean that Lelouch never planned to save Euphemia since she came to Japan in episode 5? Or do you mean that Lelouch never planned to save Euphemia whenever he dreamed of taking revenge in the seven years since his mother's murder and the invasion of Japan?

And by "not going to save Euphemia" do you mean that Lelouch always intended to kill her if he could?


Assuming he killed Euphemia to START the riot, which is not the case. He killed her to make Japanese come to his side, not to start a riot (the original plan was to start a riot).

I may make a separate post to try to clear up the confusion about exactly what you mean here.


Again, that is something that can argued about for a long time. Whether he HAD to kill Euphemia or not can be debated all day. HOWEVER, since he DID kill Euphemia, that is all that really matters right now. You can discuss it as a possible plot hole, but that is it. It doesn't really change what happened in the series (or make you anymore right than you are now...which is barely).

I have pointed out:
1) Capturing Euphemia would be just as good as killing her as far as saving the remaining Japanese at Fuji went.
2) Euphemia would have been really fast, easy, and safe to capture.
3) Thus Lelouch did not have to kill Euphemia in order to achieve any good and decent goal he may have had. And thus he murdered her.

So I don't see how anyone can discuss all day whether Lelouch had to kill Euphemia. Lelouch had to not kill Euphemia in order to remain or become a good person worthy of being the protagonist of a tv series.


Granted, in that episode, he was using her to merely stop the fighting; you have been suggesting that he use her as a way for Britannia to give back Japan altogether, something I have debunked more than once.:closedeye

I may respond to this in a separate post.


I have said this before and I will say it again: nice try. As the President of Mexico, Santa Anna DID "own" Texas, but they seceded, declaring themselves an independent republic. After the war, Santa Anna did not "give" them independence (since they technically already had it) but rather recognized the independence they had. Cornelia can't do the same thing as a Viceroy (you are basically comparing apples and oranges...and using real-life applications for a fictional cartoon, the futility which being something I have already told you).

Also, the new Mexican government took away Santa Anna's power, which voided the Treaty of Velasco (Santa Anna can't back out of a treaty that technically never existed).

No president of Mexico ever owned any Mexican region or had the right to give it away. If, for example, some hypothetical foreign country that was far more powerful than the United States defeated the United States in order to seize Alaska or Hawaii, the President could declare a cease fire and sign an armistice but it would be up to the congress to ratify any treaty giving up a state.

Furthermore, Jose Juste Corro, a follower of Santa Anna, was the president of Mexico from 2 March 1836 to 14 April 1837. The Battle of San Jacinto was on 21 April 1836 and the treaty of Velasco was signed on 14 May 1836, when Santa Anna was merely the dictator of Mexico without any constitutional powers. Thus Santa Anna gave away what what he was doubly disqualified from legally giving away. But the Texans considered a doubly illegal recognition of Texan independence better than none at all.


Unless Charles used his power to prevent them from doing so. Again, if you are making the argument about Euphemia being used to give the Japanese their land back, Lelouch would to deal with Charles and Charles wouldn't care about Euphemia (hell, it wouldn't be unlike him if he ordered her dead). Of course, the soldiers could ignore him at the blatant risk of insubordination, the punishment of which I can only guess at.

Yes I once suggested that Cornelia recognizing the independence of Japan or at least withdrawing her troops would be the biggest thing the Japanese could hope to get by using Euphemia as a hostage, while also suggesting several smaller things they might have demanded, such as Suzaku surrendering himself and the Lancelot to save Euphemia, for example.


And if they have power they can readily exercise to get her back. Charles maybe "up in the clouds" but he is certainly not ignorant of what is going on and he is not that far away.

Yes, but in epsiode 24 Prince Odysseus did not know what to do and was grateful for Prince Schnietzel's offer to take charge of the situation. if Odysseus could just get Emperor Charles on the phone to ask for instructions he would have done so.


Again, what YOU SAY doesn't mean anything as long as you are either dead wrong or spouting crap. You are better off saying "in my [honest] opinion" instead of "I say"; this prevents you from sounding like you are four and looking stupid when you are wrong ("I say" makes it seem that you are right no matter what, which is certainly not the case as I have proven you wrong multiple times).:rolleyes:

So now you criticize my style? In many cases I write "you say" and "I say" as a factual account of the points of disagreement. I'll try to write in a slightly more advanced style in the future. But I remind you that I have a reason to use simple phrases in these posts. The last time I tried to write something fancy a number of posters, including yourself, thought that my statement that something was never mandatory meant that it was never permitted and responded with a bunch of unnecessary outraged posts.

So if you have proven me wrong many times please list some of them.


So let me get this straight: since Lelouch didn't save Euphemia to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre, he is guilty of murdering every single Japanese that was killed, even though killing her ALSO stopped the massacre?! Yeah, again, nice try.:rolleyes:

I wrote that since Lelouch did not try to use Euphemia as ahostage to stop the Fuji massacre he was guilty of murdering all the Japanese who were killed AFTER he could have captured Euphemia and used her as a hostage. That seems like a very clear statement to me. I did not write that Lelouch was also guilty of murdering the Japanese killed BEFORE he could have used Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre.

Why do you say that killing Euphemia stopped the massacre? What evidence do you have to estimate how many Japanese people might have been killed after Lelouch shot Euphemia? I do not remember seeing a single scene in which even a single Britannian soldier heard that Euphemia had been shot and stopped killing Japanese as a result of the news.

And remember Euphemia broadcasting an order to kill Japanese at the beginning of episode 23. If that order was received by any Britannian soldiers who were not at the stadium, and obeyed, there would have been other massacres taking place besides the Fuji Stadium Massacre. It seems highly unlikely that the Black Knights had already heard about and stopped those other massacres by the time that Lelouch found Euphemia. Thus Euphemia should still have been valuable as a hostage to stop those other massacres even if she was the last Britannian still fighting at Fuji.

And if Lelouch and the Black Knights were defeated having Euphemia as a prisoner to trade could save the lives of many Japanese, many Black Knights, and even Lelouch himself. Since nobody knew all Lelouch's plans and goals with the possible exception of CC who cold not be counted on to carry on after Lelouch's death, Lelouch's death would have been the total end to all his plans. Thus if he had any desire to protect his followers and if he wanted to have even the slightest chance of surviving defeat to try again, Lelouch had to keep Euphemia alive to trade for their lives in the case of a defeat, which only an arrogant jerk would not consider likely enough to plan for.

And Lelouch should have known that if Euphemia survived, even if he was defeated and captured before being able to use her to bargin for mercy, Euphemia would use what little influence she had to plead for Lelouch's life, and thus reduce his chances of being executed from possibly about 99 percent to possibly about 95 percent.

And of course if the Black Rebellion was defeated the fate of thousands and millions of Japanese would largely be in the hands of Cornelia. If Euphemia was alive she would try to restrain Cornelia's violent tendencies, while if Euphemia was killed Cornelia's anger could result in many thousands or millions of extra Japanese deaths. And even after Lelouch gave Euphemia the command to kill the Japanese Cornelia's greater power meant that a dead Euphemia and an enraged Cornelia would be more dangerous to the Japanese than a live but discredited and probably considered insane Euphemia trying to use her lesser authority and influence to kill as many Japanese as possible.


That's because, right at the very beginning, it says this: "Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially prohibited..."

That part of the Hague Convention only mentions certain actions that are not already covered in special treaties and conventions; its not an exhaustive list. Since those treaties and conventions ALREADY list the prohibitions, there is no reason to repeat them here.

You seem to be making my point that actions which are not specifically prohibited by the Hague Convention miay still be be illegal in some cases.


AGAIN, it does not define "treachery" because that is something that has already been taught and explained to soldiers; its not going to be repeated again here. Also, this particular article only deals with SOLDIERS. Civilians are not part of it because, like I said before, this are entirely separate treaties and conventions (like the Fourth Geneva Convention) that deals with them (again, its not going to be repeated over and over).

I think that "individuals belonging to an enemy nation or army" includes both soldiers and civilians.


I guess, but since we are dealing with a world that you made up with circumstances that you also made up (and can therefore change), I am not about to argue with you on that (you can make up anything you want and change your posts; I am not about to argue about the definition of treachery in your story since you can obviously change it).:rolleyes:

Do you personally consider Shinji's killing of Rei in my story and/or Lelouch's killing of Euphemia in Code Geass to be treacherous acts? Do you consider them to good enough for you to do yourself or too evil for you to do? Would you try to prevent someone from killing someone in such circumstances? Would to try to punish someone for killing someone in those circumstances? Would you vote to convict someone for killing someone in those circumstances?


Umm...you may want to rewrite that. Its not merely someone who is using a flag of truce but someone who is abusing it for enemy advantage (ie obtaining information). The commanding officer does not have to accept the truce. They can detain the envoy, however, if its proven that the envoy has used the "truce" to obtain information and betray them, then the envoy has basically signed his own death warrant (at that point, he has lost inviolability, meaning no laws can protect him, even the ones that would have kept him from being killed).

Yes I rewrote it to say someone misusing a flag of truce. Thank you.


I know how the story goes, but it makes no sense for Shinji to have lied about the way he killed Rei since "blasting her with a mega-cannon" would have gotten him in significantly more trouble (depending on circumstances) than merely shooting her with a gun (your story only mentions that her mech was destroyed or rather seen falling in pieces; it doesn't make it completely clear whether Shinji shot her down or someone else did). In fact, if he was supposed to capture her anyway, why would he make it so blatantly clear that he went against orders (and made his situation significantly worse by blasting her), in yet be surprised that he is sitting in court (I'm assuming that he has the smarts and military expertise of a man of his rank not to do anything that dumb, despite evidence that proves that he one can short of a six pack)?

Actually the prosecutor says that Shinji destroyed General Ikari's nightmare: "Colonel Shinji Ikari, why didn't you capture the enemy commander, at the Battle of Madnug, after you so brilliantly destroyed her mecha?"

I say that it might make sense for Shinji to lie about how he killed Rei. the following is copied from my post # 18 above and contains quotes from my post number one.

Here are the statements from my story:

Colonel Ikari. " It was not possible to capture the Azurian commander, so I had to blast her into atoms with my mega-cannon."

2)Colonel Ikari: "Well, the power unit on the battalion coffee machine was broken so I replaced it with the power unit from my mecha's sonic blaster, which was rarely used since we almost never see an enemy outside of the protection of his mecha. The replacement power unit arrived the Tuesday after the Madnug Battle. So you see, I had absolutely no way to capture the enemy general alive and I had to either just let her go or blast her to atoms with my mega-cannon."

3) Prosecutor Mombuto: "So you claim that you had no way to capture the enemy general alive, despite the fact that she was unarmed and just a couple of dozen feet away from your mecha."

Colonel Ikari: "Yes, sir. It is impossible for a mecha pilot to capture an enemy if all three of his capture devices, the sonic blaster, the net thrower, and the sleep gas, are all disabled at the same time. It was just a tragic series of equipment failures at the same time which made it absolutely impossible for me to capture the enemy commander alive. I had no malice or criminal intent toward her.”

I see that prosecutor Mombuto described Rei Ikari as being unarmed. Either he was exaggerating or nobody considered a pistol to be the least bit dangerous to a mecha.

4) Colonel Ikari appeared on the ground walking away from the camera and toward the Azurian officer, who looked surprised, then ran up to Ikari and hugged him Colonel Ikari in his green flight suit pushed her away from, snatched the pistol out of her hand, and shot her with it. There was a startled expression her faces as she crumbled to the ground.

Prosecutor Mombuto: “Notice that Colonel Ikari is not wearing his holster or pistol, which is against regulations and an indication that he felt perfectly safe in the situation.”

Colonel Ikari turned back toward the camera and walked back to his off screen mecha. After a few seconds a blast from his off screen mega-cannon blasted the enemy officer’s body to atoms.

Apparently Shinji Ikari had to say that he had blasted Rei Ikari with his cannon to cover up that he had shot her with (her) pistol instead of accepting her surrender. And he did shoot her living or dead body with his mega-cannon to vaporize the evidence and probably leaving evidence that someone had been blasted there. So he had to claim that he had no way to capture her alive (apparently he would have claimed that she refused to surrender) and he had no choice except blasting her to atoms.

Thus it is possible that Shinji Ikari felt or thought that it would be better to say that he couldn't capture the Azurian general and had to blast her with his cannon instead.


Umm...was the triage thing pointed at me as an insult (considering that triage is a process used in every hospital emergency room and on the battlefield)? I don't get what you are driving at.

And yes, I did assume that General Ikari died since you did not describe anything about her after she was shot (other than the startled expression on her face). Heck, since this was an obvious allusion to Code Geass, I am rather surprised you didn't have her say "Father, why?" (a la Euphemia) before she was blasted.

If you going to mock me for assuming that someone died after being shot at POINT BLANK RANGE, then go right on ahead.:rolleyes:

The triage thing was supposed to remind you that I did not write enough information to prove that Rei Ikari either a) died instantly, or b) survived until blasted by the mega-cannon. And if you find it slightly insulting check out the thread "If you could be ..." and post # 2, by ZiggyBoy91, my response in post # 5, and his response in post # 6, as an example of how to react to a possible insult.

I believe that most civilian gunshot wounds, especially those from handguns, are inflicted at close to POINT BLANK RANGE and a significant percentage of the victims survive those wounds.

Kamen Rider V3 Blue
11-21-2009, 02:52 AM
Why do ya have to pick on poor Shinji Ikari hasn't he suffered enough in his OWN series?

proEuphie
11-21-2009, 12:51 PM
Why do ya have to pick on poor Shinji Ikari hasn't he suffered enough in his OWN series?

He's not the same Shinji Ikari. He's a totally different character who just happens to have the same name due to my lack of originality and twisted sense of humor.

proEuphie
11-22-2009, 10:24 PM
Assuming he killed Euphemia to START the riot, which is not the case. He killed her to make Japanese come to his side, not to start a riot (the original plan was to start a riot).


reply to this part of your post # 16. you seem to be a little unclear in expressing exactly what Lelouch's plan was at various times.

I believe that during the last part of season one Lelouch had three plans to liberate Japan and overthrow Britannia, each a modification of the previous one.

Plan One: The coup plans that Lelouch was working on at the start of episode 21.

Plan Two: The plans Lelouch followed from the end of episode 21 up until he gave it up and accepted Euphemia's SAZ plan in episode 22. I believe Lelouch modified his Plan One to have the bloody incident that would spark the revolution happpen at the opening of the SAZ.

Plan Three: The plan Lelouch decided to follow just minutes after accidentillay giviing Euphemia the gess command in episode 22. He would have slightly modified his Plan Two to take acount of the slightly different circumstances.

You seem a bit unclear about which of the plans you are referring to in your posts.

From your post # 9 and my response in post # 15:


Okay, AGAIN, Lelouch did not want to capture Euphemia. THAT was never an option that popped to his head. Since he really can't use Euphemia as a bargaining chip, the BEST option in that situation was to give the Japanese what they wanted: Euphemia's death and to use that death to start a riot and have the Japanese turn towards his cause. And I don't know where you live, but someone does not commit genocide and still have the support of the people who were involved. Those people would want that person dead. Not a prisoner. Dead.

Lelouch should have wanted to capture Euphemia, since that would have been more humane than killing her.

(paragraphs deleted)

After the Fuji massacre started Lelouch escaped in his powerful Gawain nightmare -- they didn't show if he tried to stop the massacre using the Gawain or just left as fast as he could. When he returned with the Black Knights thousands of Japanese were already dead and the Britannians were scattered to hunt down and kill fleeing Japanese. Lelouch did not need to kill Euphemia to start a riot. By this time the fighting was already far beyond what could be called a riot.

You keep saying that Lelouch could not use Euphemia as a bargaining chip and I keep pointing out that you are wrong. In either case, using up Euphemia to gain a momentary advantage in a temporary situation was ethically wrong and a stupid waste of her political talents and NOT the BEST option. It would have been better for Lelouch's cause to persuade her to help him or use his geass to make her loyal to him. Just as it would have been better to enlist the JLF into the black Knights instead of destroying them.

And what to you mean that killing Euphemia was what the Japanese wanted? What the Japanese at Fuji mostly wanted was to be saved from the massacre and what all of the Japanese wanted was a successful revolution, which Lelouch almost gave to them. By comparison killing Euphemia was something the Japanese only wanted a little bit.

And are you writing about Lelouch's Plan Two? When Lelouch was following his Plan Two the Japanese people didn't want Euphemia dead but were grateful to her for her SAZ plan. They would not want Euphemia dead until after Lelouch would make her shoot him. so if that was when you were writing about you should have written that the BEST option was to give the Japanese what they SOON WOULD want: Euphemia's death. And what do you mean by Euphemia's death and use that death to start a riot and have the Japanese turn toward his cause? By the time that Lelouch rose from the dead to gun down innocent and trusting Euphemia (who would feel so glad to see him come back to life) the riot would have already started and been going on for seconds or minutes.

Then in your post # 16 you quote my line from post # 15:
Lelouch did not need to kill Euphemia to start a riot. By this time the fighting was already far beyond what could be called a riot.

And respond with this:



Assuming he killed Euphemia to START the riot, which is not the case. He killed her to make Japanese come to his side, not to start a riot (the original plan was to start a riot).


Here you are talking about Lelouch's Plan Three adopted soon after he accidentally gave Euphemia the geass command. But in your post number nine you say he was planning to start a riot, which seems like a reference to Lelouch's Plan Two. This is a little confusing and I have spent a lot of time figuring out what you mean instead of refuting you.

proEuphie
11-22-2009, 11:49 PM
A quote from your post # 9 which I responded to in my post # 15.


Note: I have already explained that using Euphemia as bargaining tool wouldn't really work since Cornelia can't give away Japan in exchange for her sister. Cornelia is the Viceroy, a representative of the REAL owner: Charles. Only Charles would be able to do an exchange like that (the minute Cornelia would try it, Charles would step in). This includes using Euphemia to stop the fighting since, again, Charles easily trumps Cornelia's power. And since Charles was more than content to watch his daughter slaughter [I]thousands of people, he was certainly not beyond sacrificing her to fulfill his own purposes (he has shown several times that he does not care about his children AT ALL).

But Lelouch did try to use Euphemia as a hostage, in "Island of the Gods" just a few days before the Fuji Massacre. Lelouch expected it to work then, and nothing seemed to have happened to change his mind about it.

But in your post # 16 you responded with:


Granted, in that episode, he was using her to merely stop the fighting; you have been suggesting that he use her as a way for Britannia to give back Japan altogether, something I have debunked more than once.:closedeye

No. In episode 19 "Island of the Gods" Lelouch and Euphemia encountered Suzaku and his prisoner Kallen. Lelouch clapped a gun to Euphemia's head, told her to go along, and suggested to Suzaku that they trade prisoners. Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage to try to get one of his Black Knights back safely, not to stop any fighting. There was no fighting at that moment.

You may have debunked more than once my suggestion that Euphemia might possibly have been used as a hostage to get all of Japan granted independence, but each time I have at least partially undebunked your debunking. And of course most times that you say that you have debunked that possibility you omit to mention any of the lesser goals which I have suggested that Lelouch could have tried to achieve by using Euphemia as a hostage.

proEuphie
11-26-2009, 10:41 PM
response to post # 8, a esponse to my post # 6.


I fail to see what this has to do with anything?
You cannot make up Mechas for one world and then apply their ideas to anouther.
If (Like is the obvious case) you are trying to compare them to britannian forces I think you are sadly mistaken.
In that regard the images we saw of the original invasion showed their mechas were never intended to be peaceful machines at all and were always equipped with lethal weaponry and not LTL for capturing civilians.
Also the readiness of Brittanian forces to massacre civilians means it is unlikely they ever considered LTL and so bears little to no relationship to your own example.

The general slaughter and devastation and mass killing does not prove that at least some Britannian nightmares were not equipped with non lethal weapons to capture alive enemies whether they wanted to surrender or not. They might be used to capture prisoners for general information about enemy military conditions and moral, or high ranking enemy leaders to use as hostages or to interrogate abut enemy military plans, for example.

And if so the nightmares designed and built by other powers might have some non lethal weapons for sometimes capturing prisoners. And if those other powers wanted to show that they were not as evil as the Britannians they might possibly increase the ratio of non lethal to lethal weapons on their nightmares at least slightly.


this is a pointless few paragraphs
No It is not. Morgoth was the origin of all evil in the world of Middle Earth. He was the devil of his world. He was Mr. Evil himself.

And yet Morgoth's armies not only slaughtered hordes of his enemies and piled up their dead bodies to make new hills, but also captured hordes of enemies for various reasons. Suppose that someone did a statistical comparison that showed that the ratio of captured to killed in Morgoth's victories was greater than in the latest victories of the United States? Wouldn't that make a lot of Americans ashamed to know that their armies capture fewer enemies compared to those that they kill than the armies of a fictional arch-demon and evil dark lord?

Especially since one of Morgoth's possible reasons for having his armies capture so many prisoners was to eventually turn the prisoners into orcs, and any person can be turned into someone willing to fight for any cause. Even a prisoner of war can be persuaded or brainwashed or reeducated into fighting for the enemy who captured him against his own people and the cause he had previously been willing to fight for.


How many infantry lines did we see?
How many were backed up by Tanks? Mechas? Helicopters?
Your theory may be somewhat sound but really has little practicality versus the high armour targets normally shown


Dude 2 word
Gas masks

Defenses against poison gas were not available until soon after poison gas began to be used in World War I. If the Germans had stockpiled enough poison gas for their first use, and used it as well as possible, and had good gas masks for their own troops, their first use of poison gas might have made a big enough break in the allied lines to permit a German break through and victory. Thus the tactics I described might possibly be so successful the first time they were used that they would result in victory before the enemy could develop effective gas masks.


The enemy still had large tanks and armoured columns
And LTL then requires you to house/detain all of those thousands of prisoners.
There are such things as overloading your own troops with prisoners to the point where all your military force is busy and the enemy is left the perfect chance to counterattack.

Oh, the horrors of having too many enemy prisoners. Oh, how countless victorious generals have bemoaned the problems of excess prisoners and wished they could be free of that problem like the enemy generals on the losing side.

If hordes of enemy prisoners become too much of a problem an army can always grant parole to many of them letting them go without their weapons and after promising not to fight again until officially exchanged.

If the enemy outnumbers you so much that you can capture so many enemies that your troops are unable to defend themselves, and the enemy still has enough troops left to launch an attack, then maybe you shouldn't go to war with an enemy who outnumbers you so badly in the first place. Maybe you should have realized that you don't have much chance of winning.


However the use of the hands can be impractical and unneeded.

Any practice can be impractical and unneeded in some situations, no matter how practical and necessary it may be in most situations. So your comment is meaningless.


Ok first you say Unarmed.
Euphemia wasn't unarmed so that point is destroyed
Secondly you assume the person want to take prisoners.
It isn't as cut and dried as "Oh take them prisoner"
Then What?
You have taken part of your mecha out of service and now have to negotiate a hostile zone whilst trying to protect a person held in your mechas hand.
And what is the benefit of doing this?
So you can feel a little better?
Scant excuse for a person in a war zone.

What do you mean that Euphemia wasn't unarmed? After her nightmare was destroyed she was unarmed and facing two powerful nightmares. She could have stunned by a stun cannon if either of the nightmares was equipped with one, or been picked up in one nightmare's hands which could have left three hands left to use weapons. And a live princess in the hand could be more effective than any other weapon that might be held in that hand.

Lelouch and co. let her pick up a machine gun lying on the ground when they could have stopped her by simply putting a giant robot hand between her and the gun or stepping on the gun.

In a mecha force where picking up enemies was the normal rule they could be inspected for concealed hand grenades or other weapons which might damage the mecha - perhaps their uniforms would be ripped off to make certain they had no weapons, making for fan service in a manga or anime -- and then they could be put in a prisoner cage worn on the back of the mecha as in H.G. Wells's The War of the Worlds. Or the mechas could be accompanied by walking robot prisoner cages which would head back to the rear lines when full.

So a fighting mecha need not have its hands full and unable to use a weapon even if it picked up dozens of enemy prisoners. If an army wants to capture hordes of prisoners against their will the army's mecha fighting units need not be very hampered by so doing, and hordes of enemies will be captured instead of killed. Is that a benefit enough for you?

As for the benefit of taking Rei Ikari prisoner, standing orders on the Viridian side were to capture enemy Azurian generals whenever possible to use as hostages to stop the battle. Shinji Ikari disobeyed those standing orders when he ignored how easy it would be for him to captrue Rei but killed her instead. And possibly he also killed many of his fellow Viridian soldiers who may have been killed during the fighting which took place after he coud have used Rei Ikari as a hostage.



If you can provide a decent example of why? How? when? a person would simply try to capture prisoners in a war zone using an oversized tin can with fingers then you may be able to provide a decent point.

Well if there is any reason to use an oversized tin can with fingers on the battlefield there there should also be reasons to use that oversized tin can with fingers to capture hordes or enemy prisoners as a general rule or a few selected enemy prisoners in special situations.

I just gave the reason why Shinji Ikari should have captured Rei Ikari. And that happens to be one reason why Lelouch should have captured Euphemia instead of senselessly killing her.

Tens or hundreds or thousands of Britannian soldiers obeyed Euphemia's orders to kill Japanese at the Fuji stadium. Unless you have proof that Lelouch knew that Euphemia was the last Britannian left at Fuji then he should have captured her and used her as a hostage to stop the massacre instead of killing her.

And don't forget that Euphemia broadcast an order to kill Japanese at the beginning of episode 23. If any Britannian military units not at the Fuji Stadium were close enough to receive that message then there would have been other massacres taking place in other locations beside the Fuji stadium and the surrounding area that the surviving Japanese fled to. Could the Black Knights have learned about all those other massacres and stopped them before Lelouch found Euphemia? Probably not. So Lelouch should have captured Euphemia and broadcast a message threatening to kill her unless all the Britannians who heard it stopped killing at once. Not doing so makes Lelouch guilty of murdering all the Japanese who might have been killed after he could have used Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre or massacres.


at the moment however I see no contradiction in weapons of war being used to kill and not simply save every random in their way.

Yes, there is no "contradiction" in weapons of war being used to kill. But being used to save every random in their way is a lot more humane than being used to kill every random in their way. Doesn't that matter to you?

Rei Ikari in my story, and Euphie in Code Geass, were not just "randoms", as you put it. They were high ranking persons with great potential as hostages.

Rolo Vi Britannia
12-07-2009, 09:46 PM
Stop double posting(you're actually way over that.)

Anyway, everything wolfgirl said was pretty much right.

As for Euphy, how many times do I have to tell you, Lelouch had no clue he could ever get rid of the Geass effect. That's why he didn't capture her.

Maybe if the effect would have broken(going by cannon not your weird theory.), as in it went like this.
Lelouch: I would have liked that... You and I together.
Euphy: Lelouch... What's going on? *Looks at her clothes* Why am I?!
Lelouch: With that, my plan can proceed. *Shoots*
Euphy: Why...?

Then, he'd be evil!



What do you mean that Euphemia wasn't unarmed? After her nightmare was destroyed she was unarmed and facing two powerful nightmares. She could have stunned by a stun cannon if either of the nightmares was equipped with one, or been picked up in one nightmare's hands which could have left three hands left to use weapons. And a live princess in the hand could be more effective than any other weapon that might be held in that hand.

By the time Lelouch got out of his knightmare, she had a gun.
Not to mention, they never implied that those had been invented. Although, that would make them the most hardcore terrorists ever! Lol.
Grow up.



So Lelouch should have captured Euphemia and broadcast a message threatening to kill her unless all the Britannians who heard it stopped killing at once. Not doing so makes Lelouch guilty of murdering all the Japanese who might have been killed after he could have used Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre or massacres.

They didn't care about her. She was nothing at all. She wasn't strong enough to rule. The only reason she meant anything was because of her family, and she wasn't technically a member of it anymore.

proEuphie
12-09-2009, 11:06 PM
early 12/10/09 -- Going to bed. My post is unfinished. Don't start responding to it until I finish it21/12/09 1230am going to bed. Don't respond to this post until I finish it Friday night.


Stop double posting(you're actually way over that.)

Where did I double post? What is the definition of double posting? You remind me of +Namiko+ complaining that I was messing up her thread with all my posts. But how can I mess up my thread by replying as often as I think necessary?


Anyway, everything wolfgirl said was pretty much right.
Everything Wolfgirl said was pretty much wrong.


As for Euphy, how many times do I have to tell you, Lelouch had no clue he could ever get rid of the Geass effect. That's why he didn't capture her.

Euphemia would have been almost exactly as easy to capture if she was controlled by the geass command as she would be if not controlled by it. If she was properly confined the danger that she would kill another Japanese person would be almost as minute if she was controlled by the geass command all her life as if would be if she was free of the geass command all her life.

Lelouch didn't have time to think about a lot of long term ramifications which he should have thought about earlier while he was planning to disrupt the opening of the SAZ. But as a military leader he should have been able to see that Euphemia would be really easy to capture -- even Kallen saw that and asked if he was going to capture Euphemia. And it should have been obvious that there would be no great problem keeping her prisoner.

That was all that Lelouch should have thought about before deciding to capture Euphemia instead of killing her. Thinking hard looking for reasons to kill someone instead of capturing them is evil.

Killing Euphemia would have been terribly evil even if Lelouch was certain that she was never be cured of the geass command. It would have been almost exactly as evil as killing her if he was certain that she could easily be cured of the geass command.

As it was, Lelouch had no idea that Euphemia could ever be cured, and no proof that she never could be cured. He was somewhere between the two extremes of being certain she would be cured and certain she could not be cured. But since his knowledge lay between two extremes which had very slight effect on the degree of evilness in his murder of Euphemia the exact state of his ability to estimate if Euphemia could be cured is almost meaningless in trying to reduce his guilt.


Maybe if the effect would have broken(going by cannon not your weird theory.), as in it went like this.
Lelouch: I would have liked that... You and I together.
Euphy: Lelouch... What's going on? *Looks at her clothes* Why am I?!
Lelouch: With that, my plan can proceed. *Shoots*
Euphy: Why...?

Then, he'd be evil!

As I said above, Lelouch would be almost equally evil for murdering Euphemia if he knew that she was already cured or if he knew that she never could be cured. In either case it was murder to kill her when she would be so easy to capture and when keeping her prisoner would not be a big problem.

My theory is not weird. It is simple logic and deduction from the evidence.

Euphemia could talk in the sickbay. Therefore she could give orders, including orders to massacre more Japanese and kill Suzaku, that would be obeyed. The geass command tried to make her kill, and Euphemia resisted, and then she talked about other things with no evidence that she could even feel the geass command trying to make her kill.

So the most logical interpretation of that evidence is that Euphemia almost certainly defeated the geass command in the sickbay.

But Euphemia had only seconds to defeat her geass command before it would take over her and make her kill. Finding a way to defeat it in mere seconds would be an incredible coincidence. But if Euphemia's subconscious mind resisted the geass command even after it took control of her, it could have found a way to defeat it before Lelouch shot her. Then her subconscious mind could simply remember that method and use it again in the sickbay when the geass tried to regain command. Thus Euphemia could have squashed her geass command within seconds in the sickbay.

I would say that a objective opinion would be that there is at least a ninety percent probability that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay and at least an eighty one percent probability that Euphemia defeated her geass command right before Lelouch shot her.

It is logically impossible to write a story in which a good and decent person kills an innocent person who is so easy to capture alive as Euphemia would have been. The writers of Code Geass might have tried but they failed to do the utterly and totally impossible.

What actually happened right before Lelouch shot Euphemia was almost exactly identical with the course of events which you admit would have made Lelouch evil.



By the time Lelouch got out of his knightmare, she had a gun.
Not to mention, they never implied that those had been invented. Although, that would make them the most hardcore terrorists ever! Lol.
Grow up.

But you say that Euphie had gun by the time Lelouch got out of his nightmare in response to my statement that she could have been captured before she picked up the gun, and before Lelouch got out of his nightmare. You have no answer to my statement that Euphemia could have been captured easily when she was unarmed and so you pretend to answer it by talking about the situation later when Lelouch got out of his nightmare.

And she still could be captured easy even when she carried a machne gun. Neither Lelouch, nor CC, nor Kallen was shown acting worried about Lelouch's safety. The writers did not do anything to make the audience fear Euphemia would shoot Lelouch.

it is time for you to stop defending Lelouch for murdering someone who was absolutely helpless against the power of his nightmares, and who loved and trusted him too much to be dangerous to him. Grow up.

PS. You are a little imprecise about what would have made Lelouch & Co. the most hardcore terrorists ever.



They didn't care about her. She was nothing at all. She wasn't strong enough to rule. The only reason she meant anything was because of her family, and she wasn't technically a member of it anymore.

Rolo Vi Britannia
12-10-2009, 01:43 PM
early 12/10/09 -- Going to bed. My post is unfinished. Don't start responding to it until I finish it.



Where did I double post? What is the definition of double posting? You remind me of +Namiko+ complaining that I was messing up her thread with all my posts. But how can I mess up my thread by replying as often as I think necessary?


Everything Wolfgirl said was pretty much wrong.



Euphemia would have been almost exactly as easy to capture if she was controlled by the geass command as she would be if not controlled by it. If she was properly confined the danger that she would kill another Japanese person would be almost as minute if she was controlled by the geass command all her life as if would be if she was free of the geass command all her life.

Lelouch didn't have time to think about a lot of long term ramifications which he should have thought about earlier while he was planning to disrupt the opening of the SAZ. But as a military leader he should have been able to see that Euphemia would be really easy to capture -- even Kallen saw that and asked if he was going to capture Euphemia. And it should have been obvious that there would be no great problem keeping her prisoner.

That was all that Lelouch should have thought about before deciding to capture Euphemia instead of killing her. Thinking hard Looking for reasons to kill someone instead of capturing them is evil.

Killing Euphemia would have been terribly evil even if Lelouch was certain that she was never be cured of the geass command. It would have been almost exactly as evil as killing her if he was certain that she could easily be cured of the geass command.

As it was, Lelouch had no idea that Euphemia could ever be cured, and no proof that she never could be cured. He was somewhere between the two extremes of being certain she would be cured and certain she could not be cured. But since his knowledge lay between two extremes which had very slight effect on the degree of evilness in his murder of Euphemia the exact state of his ability to estimate if Euphemia could be cured is almost meaningless in trying to reduce his guilt.








But you say that Euphie had gun by the time Lelouch got out of his nightmare in response to my statement that she could have been captured before she picked up the gun, and before Lelouch got out of his nightmare. You have no answer to my statement that Euphemia could have been captured easily when she was unarmed and so you pretend to answer it by talking about the situation later when Lelouch got out of his nightmare.

And she still could be captured easy even when she carried a machne gun. Neither Lelouch, nor CC, nor Kallen was shown acting worried about Lelouch's safety. The writers did not do anything to make the audience fear Euphemia would shoot Lelouch.

it is time for you to stop defending Lelouch for murdering someone who was absolutely helpless against the power of his nightmares, and who loved and trusted him too much to be dangerous to him. Grow up.



Listen dear. Lelouch(and everyone besides people like you, and there are a few, but most focus on real life) though Euphy would be better off dead than under the Geass command or be guilty of killing all those people.

I don't think you should have even watch CG, miss hippie.( No offense, lol)
You don't understand it.

PS, posting several times in a row is double posting.

The Truth in Blue
01-26-2010, 10:51 AM
It's easy if you put it this way: Mechas are like tanks. Have you ever seen a tank with a net gun? No, you haven't.
(Unless you count the FBI's Tear gas Tanks.)

wolfgirl90
01-26-2010, 03:25 PM
Oh, honey I could honestly care less about the specifics of your little "story" (if it could called such). However, since you find it fit to fight a losing battle with me about it rather than saying "Hey Wolfgirl90, I know I didn't make a perfect story, so lets just drop this", I will continue. Honestly, if there is something you think is not important for me to focus on, admit the mistake, tell me to drop it and move on. Okay...after this, you have a chance to admit to your "less than perfect" story, to all its flaws and inconsistanes that I and others have pointed out to you and tell me to drop it (and I will) and we can continue the original topic.


So you say that people actually in the military are not a subgroup of "people with military interests"?

Basically. Not every person who joins the military joins because of their interest in military (I have seen this plenty of times).:closedeye


Beside, I implied that the civil war had been going on for about a year (if the Ikaris chose their sides at the beginning) and there is no evidence whether the Ikaris or anyone else in their world had any previous military experience.

Because you didn't give any evidence, duh. Once again, If you have people with the ranks of "Colonel" and "General", one can only assume they have "previous military experience" (unlike enlisted ranks, one needs to have formal military training along with a college degree to be an officer). If the Azurians are in such dire straights that they would put ANYONE in the position of General, why don't they just surrender (since you are so adamant for that sort of thing)?:rolleyes:


Amateur soldiers are not always up to the standards you expect in the modern professional military.

Granted, General Turchin's wife was able to hold her own as a commander despite not having any real experience. Colonel and General Ikari have none (according to you) and act they don't.


Since the evidence shows that Rei Ikari took the customary surrender posture in her world, and was very affectionate with Shini Ikari and thus did not seem very threatening, it seems to me that choosing to kill her with either method is equally murder.

Okay, first of all, stop using the word "evidence". Since this your story and your thread, you can willing change whatever "evidence" is available. Heck, you could change the story right now to fit your needs, so the word "evidence" really doesn't fit here.:rolleyes:

Second, you never said that the posture that Rei Ikari took was one of surrender (I believe that you retroactively using that as a front for your mistake, but whatever). Again, the correct action would be for her to drop her gun or even her entire holster. For someone like me, I honestly suspected that she was hit by a moment of sheer stupidity for holding out her LOADED gun to her UNARMED enemy.


Apparently Shinji Ikari had to say that he had blasted Rei Ikari with his cannon to cover up that he had shot her with (her) pistol instead of accepting her surrender.

Like I said before, the problem lies in the fact you only say that pieces of her mech were raining down and Rei is parachuting down. Was her mech destroyed by Shinji himself or someone else? Who knows (and neither should you because there's nothing else to show who could be responsible). If Shinji shot her down, then he only made the situation worse by shooting Rei and vaporizing her body, as he already went against orders (the cameras on his mech would prove such). If someone else shot her down, then they should be in trouble right along with Shinji.


I hear that in Code Geass Cornelia was the commanding general of the entire Britannian army. In any case she was a very high ranking military leader. No doubt you can quote posts where you have criticized her for being on the front lines in her nightmare in many battles.[/quotes]

I don't know, you tell me, since you apparently already know (Or are you talking out of your behind?). I have made 950 posts on this site, so pardon me if I can't remember ONE where I critized Cornelia specifically, though I doubt I did, with Cornelia being one of my favorite characters (also, its "Knightmare", sweetie).:closedeye

Regardless, I wasn't talking about Cornelia, I was talking about Rei Ikari and her apparent want or need to be on the battlefield, despite the fact that if ANYTHING were to happen that would threaten her life (and ONLY her's) in any way, shape or fashion, then she needs to surrender, even she has the advantage (like a LOADED gun to an UNARMED person) over her enemy. Again, this makes a rather poor comparison to Euphemia (which I know is what you were trying to do with this story and this thread).

[quote=proEuphie;2351739]I believe that in history a number of competent high ranking military officers of that age have still been young enough to be known for engaging in childish pranks and stupid drunken bets and other conduct unbecoming officers and gentlemen.

Something I can agree with, however, Shinji has not shown to be someone of "competence" (you have not given any instances where Shinji might have been known as a bright commander and in fact, are adament in that the might have had no real military experience whatsoever), so his participation in childish bets and pranks (which resulted in the destruction of equipment so vital to his mission that he could have avoided his daughter's death with it) makes it even worse (unless he did it on purpose...).


I haven't decided if Shinji killed Rei in cold blood. He might have gotten very excited during the previous portion of the Battle of Madnug.

Since you have given no real reason as to WHY Shinji would get out of his mech (with no gun) and kill his own daughter with her OWN gun (or that he felt remorse for what he did), yeah, I can assume that he basically killed her for no reason (or "cold blood").


But perhaps his old rage at her for choosing the Azurian side suddenly overcame him and he snatched her gun and shot her without premeditation.

Or, IN COLD BLOOD!!:rolleyes:

He didn't seem to be sorry for killing her. In fact, he admitted to killing her but only by vaporizing her, which again, makes him guilty of killing her rather than capturing her. The only thing his lie changed was the circumstance of how it happened (which really doesn't change a thing in the grand scheme of things).


Why shouldn't Rei Ikari have had a resigned expression when she prepared to surrender? If you wouldn't have resigned yourself to surrender in that situation, how would you have tried to defeat the Viridian mecha towering over you or escape from it?

I probably would have a resigned expression IF I surrendered (which I am trained to NEVER do). How would I have tried to defect the mech? Not sure, but at least I would have at least tried ("Win or die trying").

However, like I said before, I am really making fun of Rei and the fact that she surrendered so easily (or rather, has been trained to do so), especially if she knew that the enemy was now, not only not in his mech, but walking towards her unarmed.:rolleyes:


And why should a young woman refrain from hugging her estranged father who she hasn't seen in a year merely because they are high ranking officers on opposite sides of a civil war?

Well, first PDA is not really apporpriate for uniformed officers (but whatever, do what you like in your "story"). Second, it is an interesting reaction to someone who is "estranged" to you because of actions by both parties (she said nasty things to him and left; her apology really doesn't change the fact the she had a hand in the reason as to why her father is "estranged" to her) and who never agreed to the conditions you gave him in the first place. Also, I find it rather funny that, while she she wouldn't them her "full effort", she became a general of Azurian army.:rolleyes:


Your assumption that Rei was somehow at least four ranks higher than her father ignores the fact that most of the readers here are civilians and thus my story is written in Civilianese instead of Militaryese.

No, that is not how it works; we have discussed this (also, you assuming that the other civilians here don't know about ranks either). As I have told you, if Shinji is called "Colonel (Shinji) Ikari", then his rank is that of "Colonel", nothing more, nothing less. If he is referred to as A "Colonel" or they or addressing him as simply "Colonel", THEN his rank could be between that of "Lieutenant Colonel" to "Colonel". Same thing with Rei: if she is called "General (Rei) Ikari", then she is a "General, nothing less. If they are addressing her or refering to her as simply "General", then her rank can vary.

Also, I do not really blame you for not know how ranks work (though, since you keep throwing military history in my face, I thought it was something that you would certainly know); I have to study them and know them, you don't. So basically what you should be doing is admitting to your mistake, telling me to ignore the error and move on rather than coming up with an excuse to cover up (and let you get away with) ignorance.


The statement that people don't get to be Colonel until after abut 22 years of service is not as universally correct as you may think.

*Sigh* I am talking about the CURRENT standards for Colonel, not the ones for the 19th Century. CURRENTLY, one gets the rank of Colonel after 22 years of service and its an automatic gain of rank (meaning after 22 years of continued service, you are going to get the rank of "Colonel). And IF you became an officer at the end of college and/or ROTC or OTS (can be between 18-22 or 23 years old), then one can typically be (or expect to be) around 40+ years old when they become a "Colonel".


IN the Viridian-Azurian Civil War any preexisting military would have ballooned in size as civilians were rapidly enlisted. Many regular military officers or civilians appointed to command would have had meteoric rises in rank during that civil war.

The ballooning in size makes sense; the acceleration of ranks does not (certainly not in ONE year). Only so many officers are needed for any amount of people. So while the amount of slots for officers might have increased, random people would not be suddenly given these ranks and certainly not to simply have people with those ranks. Otherwise, you get people like Shnji Ikari, "promoted" from nothing (with nothing) to Colonel, apparently for no other reason than to have someone with the rank of "Colonel" and nothing more.

proEuphie
01-30-2010, 10:13 PM
Some posters have found fault with my parable of the trial of Shinji Ikari. So here is a new parable, which I hope will be a little less easy to nitpick.

The Court Martial of a Mecha Pilot

Let us imagine the court martial of mecha pilot Irshin Rikira on some distant world.

Prosecutor Butomon:

“Leader-of-a-thousand Irshin Rikira, you have an impressive record. During the year this terrible civil war has lasted you have risen from the rank of leader-of-fifty to leader-of-five-thousand, only to be reduced to leader-of-two-hundred for your indiscreet remarks advocating total extermination of the Azurian population right before they acquired mechas from the People from the Stars and drove us back into our own territory.”

Prosecutor Butomon: “But your brilliant and heroic leadership in battle after battle has earned you promotion back to leader-of-a-thousand, and many expected that within a year or two you might be leader-of-twenty-five-thousand, leader-of-fifty-thousand, or even leader-of-a-hundred-thousand. And now this!”

"Leader-of-a-thousand Irshin Rikira, why didn't you capture the enemy commander, at the Battle of Madnug, after you so brilliantly destroyed her mecha? Standing orders say that whenever possible an enemy leader of the rank of leader-of-five-thousand or above must be captured to be used as a hostage to stop the battle. And killing a defenseless enemy instead of capturing her is clearly an act of murder, punishable by death."

Fickle spectators boo Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira.

Judge Zomeg: "Silence!"

Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira. "It was not possible to capture the Azurian commander, so I had to blast her into atoms with my mega-cannon."

Fickle spectators cheer Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira.

Judge Zomeg: "Silence!"

Prosecutor Butomon: "Why wasn't it possible to capture the enemy leader? Why didn't you use some sleep gas on her?"

Fickle spectators boo Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira.

Judge Zomeg: "Silence!"

Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira: "My sleep gas canister was punctured during the Battle of Eram Thgin the week before. I requested a replacement and got it the Seutuday after the Battle of Madnug."

Fickle spectators cheer Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira.

Judge Zomeg: "Silence!"

Prosecutor Butomon: "Why didn't you use your net thrower on the enemy commander?"

Fickle spectators -- well, you got the idea by now.

Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira: My net was broken. The replacement net got here the Seutuday after the Battle of Madnug."

Prosecutor Butomon: "How does a steel cable net get broken?"

Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira: "Well, ah, er, we were having some drinks and I bet Leader-of-a-hundred Novanvi that I could net and capture his mecha despite his best evasive moves. It turned out that I could snag the mecha in the net but the force of the moving mecha was just too much for my net and it snapped."

Prosecutor Butomon: "Why didn't you use your mecha's sonic blaster to knock the Azurian leader-of-five-thousand unconscious?"

Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira: "Well, the power unit on our coffee machine was broken so I replaced it with the power unit from my mecha's sonic blaster, which was rarely used. A year ago, when we were the only ones with mechas acquired from the People from the Stars, we used to capture hordes of enemy infantry in every battle, but now we hardly ever get a chance to use our capture devices. The replacement power unit got here the Seutuday after the Madnug Battle. So you see, I had absolutely no way to capture the enemy leader-of-five-thousand alive and I had to blast her to atoms with my mega-cannon."

Prosecutor Butomon: So you claim that you had no way to capture the enemy leader-of-five-thousand alive, despite the fact that she was unarmed with any weapon that could harm your mecha and just a couple of dozen feet away from your mecha?"

Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira: "Yes, sir. It is impossible for a mecha pilot to capture an enemy if all three of his capture devices, the sonic blaster, the net thrower, and the sleep gas, are all disabled at the same time. It was just a tragic series of equipment failures at the same time which made it absolutely impossible for me to capture the enemy commander alive. I had no malice or criminal intent toward her.”

Prosecutor Butomon: “Honored members of the court, please look at prosecution Exhibit A, a letter written by the deceased, Azurian Leader-of-five-thousand Eri Rikira, a year ago, at the start of this terrible civil war. Recorder, please read from your copy for the benefit of the spectators.”

Recorder (reading from the letter): “Irshin, my father, please forgive me for the terrible things I said to you when you said you were going to join the Viridians. Please, please forgive me. I have already forgiven you for what you said to me in your anger. I beg you to send me a message telling me that you forgive me for joining the Azurians.”

“People can only choose to fight for the side that they are convinced is right, and if the mere fact that someone they love is fighting on the other side is not enough to change their convictions, they must fight against the side of even their most beloved family members. But somehow we must find the strength to still love each other, despite my hatred for the Viridian cause and your hatred for the Azurian cause.”

“Though I will give the Azurian cause almost all my loyalty and devotion, because of you I will not give it all my commitment. I will reserve some loyalty to you, my dear father, and to everyone in the world, including Viridians. If by some dread chance we meet in battle, I will capture you or surrender to you, run away or let you escape, instead of forcing a fight to the death between us.”

“And I promise to fight against the hatred that this horrible civil war will bring and try to be as kind as possible to all the Viridian prisoners and civilian population, seeing you in all of them, hoping to set a good example for my fellows and keep the hatred to a minimum.”

“Your loving daughter, Eri Rikira.”

Prosecutor Butomon: “That letter from the deceased, Azurian Leader-of-five-thousand Eri Rikira, was found in the possessions of the accused, Leader-of-a-thousand Irshin Rikira -- her father.”

Gasps from the court and spectators.

Prosecutor Butomon: ”Honored members of the court, please watch the screen where I will play Exhibit B, a video taken by a camera on the torso of Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira’s mecha during the Battle of Madnug in which the deceased, Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira was killed.”

Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira: “What! I wasn’t told there was a camera on my mecha!”

Judge Zomeg: “Well, now you know. The prosecution in the main case against you, on the charges of murdering the hundreds of Viridians slaughtered without mercy by the followers of Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira when they heard that she had been killed, will probably have an explanation for the presence of the camera.”

As the video opened the camera lurched, as though the mecha it was mounted on was about topple over. In the background there were pieces of several destroyed mechas and mecha-sized weapons. A weaponless Azurian mecha stood unsteadily near the camera position, scarred from recent battle damage, with yellow-green oil spurting from every joint and several holes, and smoking in several places. Other smoke came from off screen near the camera position, from the mecha it was mounted on.

The Azurian mecha fumbled for its lasso and hurled it toward the camera. The lasso passed overhead, the Azurian mecha jerked on it, and the imaged jumped as the Viridian mecha was snared. The lasso started to winch in toward the Azurian mecha, and the imaged jumped around as both the mechas stumbled toward each other, almost falling down.

They clanged together. The hand of the Viridian mecha came into view, grabbing a power pack out of a pouch on the side of the Azurian mecha.

Prosecutor Butomon: “Freeze image. Here Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira snatched a power pack away from the Azurian to re-energize his own mega-cannon. Resume play.”

The image shook and there were blinding flashes of light. Then the mecha the camera was mounted stumbled backwards away from where it had stood. Pieces of the Azurian mecha came into view. The Azurian mecha pilot came into view parachuting to safety.

Prosecutor Butomon: “Freeze image. Apparently Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira set her auto-destruct and ejected when the two mechas were pulled together. But leader-of-a-thousand Rikira re-energized his mega-cannon and blasted the Azurian mecha away from his mecha and retreated. Resume play.”

There was a blinding flash of light as the still intact auto-destruct mechanism exploded the section of wreckage it was in. Pieces flew in every direction. One hit the helmet of the Azurian pilot. She landed and her parachute came down and covered her. She struggled weakly and emerged from under the parachute, swaying from side to side. The broken helmet fell off, revealing her pretty young face. The sunlight glittered like gold on the highlights of her curly green hair. Bright blue blood flowed down from her hair in lines over her pale green face and onto her blue and white flight suit.

A figure in a green and black Viridian flight suit, apparently Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira, appeared on the ground and walked toward the Azurian, his pistol still in its holster. Holding her hand to her head, the Azurian ignored her gun in her holster and the approaching Viridian. Then she got excited and rushed to hug the Viridian. He hugged her back and picked her up as easy as if she was a child.

Every one watching the tape wished that it had sound so they could hear what was going on. Suddenly the Viridian pushed the Azurian away. She fell to the ground and picked herself unsteadily up. The Viridian snatched his gun out of his holster and pointed toward her. Bright blue blood sprayed in all directions from between the Viridian and the Azurian. She fell writhing to the ground and rolled.

The Viridian turned and strode back toward his mecha, his face hidden by his visor, but his posture indicating he was feeling extreme emotions. He strode out of the frame. The Azurian twitched and then lay still, dead or unconscious. She moved slightly and then lay still, dead or unconscious. Her living or dead body and the surrounding ground exploded, blasted by the Viridian mega-cannon.

Prosecutor Butomon: “End play.”

Prosecutor Butomon: “If Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira felt so safe that he didn’t even bother to draw his own pistol while walking toward Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira, I find it hard to believe that he was afraid that Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira would resist or try to shoot him. Thus I believe that taking Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira a prisoner as per the normal procedure would have been almost as safe for Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira as killing Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira was.”

Prosecutor Butomon: “But suppose that you think that if capturing Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira was not exactly as safe for Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira as killing Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira, the little bit of extra danger involved in capturing Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira would have been enough to making killing her not murder but an acceptable behavior on the part of Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira. If any of you think that, you will be surprised to learn that there was another way Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira could have captured Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira alive which was even safer to Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira than killing Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira was.”

Gasps from the court and spectators.

Prosecutor Butomon: "Honored members of the court, I wish you all to examine Exhibit C, life sized reproductions of a letter written by Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira last week. Notice anything unusual?"

Leader-of-ten-thousand Putradanch: Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira's handwriting is unusually large and clumsy for an adult and an officer, but what has that to do with this case?"

Prosecutor Butomon: Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira wrote that letter using the hands of his mecha."

Gasps from the court and spectators.

Prosecutor Butomon: Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira is very dexterous with the hands of his mecha. He can do very fine work with them, as the letter shows, or he can use enormous strength, as exhibit D, a photo of him tossing Leader-of-twenty-five Flimo into the air and catching him, shows."

That may not sound impressive, but the photo showed that Leader-of-twenty-five Flimo was in his mecha when Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira tossed him up and caught him.

Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira: So I'm handy with the hands of my mecha. What does that prove?"

Prosecutor Butomon: "So why didn't you simply pick up the enemy commander in the hand of your mecha to capture her?"

Gasps from the court and spectators.

Prosecutor Butomon: "It might be claimed that there was some mechanical failure with the hands of Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira's mecha at the time of the Battle of Madnug. But I have witnesses to testify that Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira performed his usual post-battle ritual immediately upon returning to the post, and before there was any time to do any repairs to the hands of his mecha. And this video, exhibit E, shows just what the ritual was. Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira in his mecha, juggled three personnel carriers, put them down, and then juggled his mechanics, Followers Enojs and Gunch."

Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira: "Oh, Oh"

You don’t know anything about the laws of this fictional world, but based on your sense of right and wrong, do you believe that someone who does what Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira did should be convicted or acquitted?

proEuphie
01-30-2010, 11:14 PM
unfinished 1 am Jan 31. Finished 1 am Feb. 1.


Oh, honey I could honestly care less about the specifics of your little "story" (if it could called such). However, since you find it fit to fight a losing battle with me about it rather than saying "Hey Wolfgirl90, I know I didn't make a perfect story, so lets just drop this", I will continue. Honestly, if there is something you think is not important for me to focus on, admit the mistake, tell me to drop it and move on. Okay...after this, you have a chance to admit to your "less than perfect" story, to all its flaws and inconsistanes that I and others have pointed out to you and tell me to drop it (and I will) and we can continue the original topic.

I did not think of it as a story, but as a fable or parable, such as the Good Shepherd or the Good Samaritan. I just assumed that if anyone was interested in the details they could fill them out in their own minds. My post # 30 has a new parable or fable.


Basically. Not every person who joins the military joins because of their interest in military (I have seen this plenty of times).:closedeye

I suppose not, especially those who are drafted into an enemy army. But probably the vast majority of people who get into a military organization develop at least a little interest in such military topics as their chances for promotion or demotion, their chances for a better or a worse assignment, their chances of getting killed, etc. etc.


Because you didn't give any evidence, duh. Once again, If you have people with the ranks of "Colonel" and "General", one can only assume they have "previous military experience" (unlike enlisted ranks, one needs to have formal military training along with a college degree to be an officer). If the Azurians are in such dire straights that they would put ANYONE in the position of General, why don't they just surrender (since you are so adamant for that sort of thing)?:rolleyes:

I assumed that the readers would believe that the Ikaris had enough military experience to get their ranks according to the standards of THEIR society in a time of crises. If you imagine that X amount of experience is needed to be colonel or a general in the world of my fable, then you can assume that the Ikaries have X amount of experience, even if Rei possibly has just barely barely X amount.

Their society might be like China or Japan about 1875 to 1900, building up European type military establishments. Many high ranking officers in the Chinese and Japanese armies in that era may have had a little or a lot of previous military experience, but I doubt if many of them had formal military training or college degrees. Rei Ikari is old enough to have a bachelor's degree, to say nothing of her father.

The Azurians might not have surrendered because the Viridians might have had as much trouble finding good officers as they did. And they might have kept on fighting for the same reason that Abraham Lincoln did not grant Southern independence despite his troubles finding a good general for the Virginia front -- the cause was considered too important.


Granted, General Turchin's wife was able to hold her own as a commander despite not having any real experience. Colonel and General Ikari have none (according to you) and act they don't.

Well, they each have a year's experience since the war began, and perhaps some experience before the war begin, since I never specified their qualifications, assuming that readers would accept that they had enough qualifications and experience by the standards of THEIR society.


Okay, first of all, stop using the word "evidence". Since this your story and your thread, you can willing change whatever "evidence" is available. Heck, you could change the story right now to fit your needs, so the word "evidence" really doesn't fit here.:rolleyes:

Second, you never said that the posture that Rei Ikari took was one of surrender (I believe that you retroactively using that as a front for your mistake, but whatever). Again, the correct action would be for her to drop her gun or even her entire holster. For someone like me, I honestly suspected that she was hit by a moment of sheer stupidity for holding out her LOADED gun to her UNARMED enemy.

Then you can make make and keep a copy of my new fable in post # 30, to see if I change it in the future.

I remind you that when Rei started holding out her loaded gun in a gesture of surrender, her enemy was still in the cockpit of his giant war robot armed with many weapons.


Like I said before, the problem lies in the fact you only say that pieces of her mech were raining down and Rei is parachuting down. Was her mech destroyed by Shinji himself or someone else? Who knows (and neither should you because there's nothing else to show who could be responsible). If Shinji shot her down, then he only made the situation worse by shooting Rei and vaporizing her body, as he already went against orders (the cameras on his mech would prove such). If someone else shot her down, then they should be in trouble right along with Shinji.

The first thing that the prosecutor said was that Shinji brilliantly destroyed the enemy mecha, unless you believe that I rewrote that later. If general orders were to capture enemy generals WHENEVER POSSIBLE, Shinji would probably not get into trouble merely for destroying an Azurian general's mecha in combat, especially if he deliberately or accidentally destroyed it in a way which let the Azurian general land safely on the ground where it was impossible for her to escape capture.


I hear that in Code Geass Cornelia was the commanding general of the entire Britannian army. In any case she was a very high ranking military leader. No doubt you can quote posts where you have criticized her for being on the front lines in her nightmare in many battles.[/quotes]

[quote=wolfgirl90;2377698]I don't know, you tell me, since you apparently already know (Or are you talking out of your behind?). I have made 950 posts on this site, so pardon me if I can't remember ONE where I critized Cornelia specifically, though I doubt I did, with Cornelia being one of my favorite characters (also, its "Knightmare", sweetie).:closedeye

I don't see why you can't just assume that Rei Ikari has as much reason to be at the front as Cornelia does.


Regardless, I wasn't talking about Cornelia, I was talking about Rei Ikari and her apparent want or need to be on the battlefield, despite the fact that if ANYTHING were to happen that would threaten her life (and ONLY her's) in any way, shape or fashion, then she needs to surrender, even she has the advantage (like a LOADED gun to an UNARMED person) over her enemy. Again, this makes a rather poor comparison to Euphemia (which I know is what you were trying to do with this story and this thread).

Rei did not have the advantage of having a loaded gun (possibly with only one bullet) against an unarmed enemy when she started surrendering -- instead she faced a giant war robot armed with many powerful weapons. And when she saw that Shinji Ikari was unarmed it was too late for her to unsurrender. She had already started to surrender. How could she convincingly threaten him with a gun? Shinji would not believe that any honorable officer would actually shoot someone who was coming to accept their surrender, in violation of our world's Hague Convention against treacherously wounding or killing persons belonging to enemy nations or armies, and no doubt similar rules in his world.

How can you criticize Rei for surrendering when she had just a pistol against a weapon much more powerful than a tank, and then for NOT violating the Hague Convention?


Something I can agree with, however, Shinji has not shown to be someone of "competence" (you have not given any instances where Shinji might have been known as a bright commander and in fact, are adament in that the might have had no real military experience whatsoever), so his participation in childish bets and pranks (which resulted in the destruction of equipment so vital to his mission that he could have avoided his daughter's death with it) makes it even worse (unless he did it on purpose...).

NO, I haven't given any evidence about Shinji's competence, though you might assume there was no room in my short fable for such evidence even if he was a military genius. But if even competent officers of his age can have immature and foolish habits incompetent officers should be at least as likely to.


Since you have given no real reason as to WHY Shinji would get out of his mech (with no gun) and kill his own daughter with her OWN gun (or that he felt remorse for what he did), yeah, I can assume that he basically killed her for no reason (or "cold blood").

Killing someone for no reason is not the same as killing someone in cold blood. Killing someone for no reason means that the killer has no known reason for killing (similar to Lelouch's motiveless killing of Euphemia) regardless of his emotional state at the time of killing. Killing someone in cold blood means that the killer is relatively calm and unemotional when he kills his victim, and perhaps premeditated the murder, regardless of his motives for murder. Equating killing someone for no reason with killing someone in cold blood is comparing apples and oranges.

Why should I go to the trouble of providing a motive for Shinji to kill Rei in my short little fable, when the makers of Code geass did not bother to provide a motive for Lelouch to kill Euphemia in their much longer tv series which they hoped to make large profits from?


Or, IN COLD BLOOD!!:rolleyes:

He didn't seem to be sorry for killing her. In fact, he admitted to killing her but only by vaporizing her, which again, makes him guilty of killing her rather than capturing her. The only thing his lie changed was the circumstance of how it happened (which really doesn't change a thing in the grand scheme of things).

I remind you that he admitted to killing Rei, claiming that it was impossible to capture her alive. My little fable does not have room to show whether the Viridians considered it better to kill an a enemy general or let her escape, merely that they considered it murder to kill an enemy general who would be easy to capture when standing orders required the capture of enemy generals WHENEVER POSSIBLE. (I suppose I should have written "whenever practical".)


I probably would have a resigned expression IF I surrendered (which I am trained to NEVER do). How would I have tried to defect the mech? Not sure, but at least I would have at least tried ("Win or die trying").

However, like I said before, I am really making fun of Rei and the fact that she surrendered so easily (or rather, has been trained to do so), especially if she knew that the enemy was now, not only not in his mech, but walking towards her unarmed.:rolleyes:

Like I said, first Rei surrendered to the giant war robot, then when she saw an unarmed man walking toward her to accept her surrender, she could not threaten him without threatening to violate her world's version of the Hague Convention. And if she just tried to run away she would expect Shinji to get back in his mecha and catch up to her.

You make fun of the training you suppose that Rei received to surrender too easy. So are Air Force pilots trained to shoot it out and win or die trying if they eject and parachute to earth in the middle of an enemy battalion, or are they trained to surrender when the enemy outnumbers them so badly?

I believe there are historical records of many air force pilots who survived being shot down and captured by the enemy and later were released and served in later wars. And I believe that Senator John McCain survived being shot down in Vietnam, and many millions who voted for him for president, and perhaps many millions who didn't, think that he served his country all these decades a lot better alive than if he was dead.

So is this some kind of rank thing with commissioned pilots being permitted to surrender if the odds are too great, while lowly airmen are trained to fight to the death? Or is this some new rule recently introduced by enemy infiltrators to train a new generation of US soldiers to fight more fanatically and ultimately less effectively, like the Japanese in World War II?


Well, first PDA is not really apporpriate for uniformed officers (but whatever, do what you like in your "story"). Second, it is an interesting reaction to someone who is "estranged" to you because of actions by both parties (she said nasty things to him and left; her apology really doesn't change the fact the she had a hand in the reason as to why her father is "estranged" to her) and who never agreed to the conditions you gave him in the first place. Also, I find it rather funny that, while she she wouldn't them her "full effort", she became a general of Azurian army.:rolleyes:

So reserving a little bit of commitment to higher values like justice, honor, and mercy seems like not giving your "full effort" of skill and courage and hard work to your cause? You don't think that someone can fight with all their courage, and skill, and intelligence, and effort while considering some values even higher than winning at all costs? Again you are comparing apples and oranges. I'm sure that Rei Ikari, while honoring some things above even the Azurian cause, served it far better than Generals James Wilkinson or David "traitor" Twiggs served the US Army.


No, that is not how it works; we have discussed this (also, you assuming that the other civilians here don't know about ranks either). As I have told you, if Shinji is called "Colonel (Shinji) Ikari", then his rank is that of "Colonel", nothing more, nothing less. If he is referred to as A "Colonel" or they or addressing him as simply "Colonel", THEN his rank could be between that of "Lieutenant Colonel" to "Colonel". Same thing with Rei: if she is called "General (Rei) Ikari", then she is a "General, nothing less. If they are addressing her or refering to her as simply "General", then her rank can vary.

"A general officer is an officer of very high military rank. The term or equivalent is used by nearly every country in the world. General can be used as a generic term for all grades of general officer, or it can specifically refer to a single rank that is simply called general."
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_officer

General can mean either a general officer of any grade or a specific rank of general.

You have shown that Shinji Ikari should be a colonel and not a lieutenant colonel, thus making his daughter one to four ranks higher than him. I think that since she is referred to as the enemy commander, and the enemy leader, specifically at the Battle of Madnug, her being referred to as the Azurian general or the enemy general or as General Rei Ikari probably means that she is a general officer, probably a brigadier general, and not a four star general.


Also, I do not really blame you for not know how ranks work (though, since you keep throwing military history in my face, I thought it was something that you would certainly know); I have to study them and know them, you don't. So basically what you should be doing is admitting to your mistake, telling me to ignore the error and move on rather than coming up with an excuse to cover up (and let you get away with) ignorance.

I know how military ranks work. In theory the higher ranks (and the more senior within a rank) command and the lower ranks (and the less senior within a rank) obey. And in practice some times it can get more complicated and even uncertain as to who should command. And in a specific military situation people soon learn to distinguish one rank from another among the ranks they deal with often.


*Sigh* I am talking about the CURRENT standards for Colonel, not the ones for the 19th Century. CURRENTLY, one gets the rank of Colonel after 22 years of service and its an automatic gain of rank (meaning after 22 years of continued service, you are going to get the rank of "Colonel). And IF you became an officer at the end of college and/or ROTC or OTS (can be between 18-22 or 23 years old), then one can typically be (or expect to be) around 40+ years old when they become a "Colonel".

In my first fable in post # 1 the characters have names from many cultures and use military ranks similar to modern US ones. Those are the only pieces of evidence suggesting that this imaginary society resembles the United States in the year 2010.


The ballooning in size makes sense; the acceleration of ranks does not (certainly not in ONE year). Only so many officers are needed for any amount of people. So while the amount of slots for officers might have increased, random people would not be suddenly given these ranks and certainly not to simply have people with those ranks. Otherwise, you get people like Shnji Ikari, "promoted" from nothing (with nothing) to Colonel, apparently for no other reason than to have someone with the rank of "Colonel" and nothing more.

If all command positions have to filled they might as well be filled by officers with the usual rank for those positions. There is no harm in giving high ranks (which can be revoked if necessary) to untried officers who are going to have to be put in command anyway.

Anyway, I think your objections are just nitpicking. You remind me of comedy scenes in which someone tries to tell a story to make a point and the listeners keep interrupting to ask for more information about minor details.

xXPainful SmilexX
01-30-2010, 11:54 PM
Your story is going on the assumption that mechas have sleep gas, nets, and other things.
I find it more interesting to see exploding robots, bloody bodies, and lots of death. I suppose that's just my view.
I'd much rather be K.I.A than captured honestly. Yay torture!

proEuphie
02-01-2010, 01:20 AM
Why do ya have to pick on poor Shinji Ikari hasn't he suffered enough in his OWN series?

My post # 30 now has a new version of my fable, with Shinji Ikari replaced by a new character.

Rolo Vi Britannia
02-02-2010, 10:19 PM
Your story is going on the assumption that mechas have sleep gas, nets, and other things.
I find it more interesting to see exploding robots, bloody bodies, and lots of death. I suppose that's just my view.
I'd much rather be K.I.A than captured honestly. Yay torture!
Lmao, you sounded alot different on the other thread you posted on.

proEuphie
02-03-2010, 10:03 PM
Listen dear. Lelouch(and everyone besides people like you, and there are a few, but most focus on real life) though Euphy would be better off dead than under the Geass command or be guilty of killing all those people.

1) Nobody can ever be better off dead,
2) if anyone could ever be better off dead Lelouch decided that Euphemia was better off dead and acted on that decision way too fast. He didn't take enough time to gather enought information and consider it.


I don't think you should have even watch CG, miss hippie.( No offense, lol)

Now you tell me. It's a little too late to warn me now.


You don't understand it.

I understand it far better than any who like the series possibly could.

Rolo Vi Britannia
02-04-2010, 07:39 AM
1) Nobody can ever be better off dead,
2) if anyone could ever be better off dead Lelouch decided that Euphemia was better off dead and acted on that decision way too fast. He didn't take enough time to gather enought information and consider it.



Now you tell me. It's a little too late to warn me now.



I understand it far better than any who like the series possibly could.


1. It's your opinion that people are better off alive. To me, people are better off dead. Lelouch didn't have time. He had to make a decision in just a few seconds.

2. Sorry, I was in a bad mood the months ago, when I posted this.

3. Yeah. riiiight You're sooo enlightened.

Here's a story of Gundam 00 Episode 20 that reminded me of Euphy

Anew Returner was Lyle Dylandy's girlfriend. And she was secretly an Innovator, one of the enemies. Of course, at one point, she turns on Celestial Being. and as she does, Lyle defeats her in a fight and tears her cockpit open. Instead of killing her, he tells her that he understands her. Right before she goes with him, Ribbons(The villain) takes over her mind and forces her to kill Lyle, however Setsuna destroys her mobile suit and kills her.

Was Setsuna wrong in killing her, not capturing her?

wolfgirl90
02-04-2010, 06:15 PM
You think I'm nitpicking, proEuphie? Congratulations, I already alluded to that fact in my last post. Hell, the reason I started "nitpicking" was because you said that I (along with MangaFanGuy) had missed a "very important factor" in your original story and that you want us to "point it out" to you. Since your story had many holes in it (holes I pointed out, which admittedly would be nitpicking) and because YOU have the burden of proof here (since this is YOUR thread), YOU were supposed to tell us what it was if it was that important to your discussion...of course, you never told us; in fact, you simply quoted that part and never responded (you did respond to the "nitpicking", which honestly was not the point).

In fact, I pretty much told you that BOTH of us were off-topic and that YOU should tell me this (as this is your own thread) and get back to the point, rather than respond to my post and continue your losing cycle of arguing with me if it bothered you so much(Why do you insist on arguing with someone IN THE MILITARY about how MILITARY ranks work? Don't you think you should just admit fault rather than argue?). If you didn't want me to "nitpick" at your story, WHY did you continue to respond to my posts instead of telling me to stop? Do you even remember what this thread was supposed to be about? Like I said before, I honestly do not care about the specifics in your story (really, I don't; the only reason why I respond is because I find your fighting rather amusing [a la Mavericker]) and, since your story-telling is not the best, it really does not help your thread. Just say what you are trying to say, because the stories are not helping you.

I already know what you are alluding to: Lelouch killing Euphemia. This is ultimately what you trying to get at (you were better off doing that than starting this mess of a thread). And I have to admit this: I don't share the same feelings for Euphemia that you do. I simply don't. Not only do I not like characters like her (pseudo-pacifistic people like her, such as Relena Peacecraft, rarely do), I already knew what was going to happen to her before it actually happened. Granted, she became a much stronger and respectable person in Nightmare of Nunnally (something you honestly should read to get off this pedestal of yours), but she still isn't one of my favorite characters. If you don't want to read this, then that is your problem, although, I am not really convinced that you are a fan of Euphemia; I think you are more or less outraged that someone LIKE her died, rather being outraged that Euphemia herself died (you yourself even admitted that you didn't pay attention to her until AFTER she died), but I digress.

In response to one of your previous posts: Should Rikira be convicted or acquitted? Well, for YOU, there is only one answer to that, isn't there?:closedeye

Since you made it clear that that question was not about legality (since we, as you pointed out, do not know the laws of this make-believe land of yours) and more about our morals, there is really only one answer that you want, an answer I can't really give because there is a chance that you withholding information from us (this is your story after all; you could easily change the circumstances if you wanted to at the click of a button) to make sure that you are in the right (this wouldn't be the first time).

I come from a military background. I have different morals and ethics than you do (despite your efforts to be morally "in the right", you really are "darker" than you want us to think). I have a different way of seeing things than you do. I even have a different religion (if you are religious) than you (and most people for that matter). You would think that this would lead to an interesting debate. However, this is not a debate; this is a one-sided argument where you are always right (or that you have to be or trying) under every circumstance (although you hardly ever are). This is why, even you are obviously wrong about something, such as how military ranks work, you must be right. FYI, again, you may CALL a Lieutenant Colonel "Colonel" but you NEVER write their rank down that way; go ahead, since I'm apparently wrong, go try it (if it looks like I am still "nitpicking", its because I am; I don't take blatant ignorance like that very well).:rolleyes:


1) Nobody can ever be better off dead,

Not that I wholly disagree with you; its not that I entertain the thought of people dying for no reason or make the decision to kill someone whenever I can't think of something or whenever the thought tickles my fancy. However, coming to terms with the thought that I might potentially kill someone is something that I have already done. I didn't get weapons training for fun. Since I'm female, the chances for me to see frontline fighting is very slim, but the chance is still there; that's how war (especially this one) works.


2) if anyone could ever be better off dead Lelouch decided that Euphemia was better off dead and acted on that decision way too fast. He didn't take enough time to gather enought information and consider it.

How much time do you think he should have taken? Bare in mind, of course, that the longer it takes him to come up with a viable solution to stop Euphemia (and keep her alive) and use her as a political pawn while STILL managing to keep the Japanese happy (keeping the person who just murdered a bunch of THEIR people and working with THEIR enemy doesn't look very good), Euphemia is still running around shooting people with her gun, blowing them up (or potentially crushing them) in her Knightmare, and/or commanding other Britannian soldiers to do the same.:rolleyes:

Lelouch is basically letting bodies pile up (and any redemption for him and Euphemia to slowly disappear) while he tries to figure out how to save the life of the person doing the killing in THE FIRST PLACE.

The thing with you is that you are focusing on Euphemia, ONLY Euphemia, and to hell with everybody else; its this particular mentality that I simply can't agree with. I understand that this is a cartoon (something that YOU can't seem to be able to do), but your mentality apparently applies to even real-world situations, which is mind-boggling to me. You are forgetting that, regardless of what actually caused Euphemia to go out and basically genocide, she still did it and it stops being just about her; its about her and the lives of the Japanese people, both the ones that died and the ones that survived.

Lelouch ultimately made the decision to kill Euphemia. As I have said before, he REALLY made that decision because it was the best way to get the Japanese on his side (as that was his original plan); this was how he "used" Euphemia as a political pawn. The secondary reason (it was really more of a result, rather than a reason) was to get her to stop SHOOTING PEOPLE, not to put her out of her misery (again, its not just about Euphemia anymore). Now, I am merely explaining WHY Lelouch did what he did so that you can understand (you don't have to agree, but this fact is not that difficult to grasp). I didn't say I actually supported it (again, its a bloody cartoon). Did he make the morally right decision? Again, who knows; that's something that could lead to an endless debate.


Now you tell me. It's a little too late to warn me now.

Well, as they say, "that's how the cookie crumbles", "that's the way the world works", take your pick. Usually the best anime have moral twists and turns and the ones that are the most predictable are usually the ones that are boring. Take the new anime Sands of Destruction. The main character, the heroine of the story, wants to save humanity...by destroying the world. Does that sound like the "right" thing to do? Not really. But is it more exciting and innovative than the "hero saves the world" story that has been told over and over? Yes.


I understand it far better than any who like the series possibly could.

Explain, because based on the fact 1) you have admitted that you didn't even PAY ATTENTION to Euphemia until AFTER she died (even Nina did better than that), thus leading to your posts and threads to be more about morals and ethics (PERSONAL morals and ethics) and less about facts (since you tend to be either blatantly wrong or make stuff up) and 2) you haven't even SEEN the entire series, including the (NOT DEAD) Euphemia-heavy Nightmare of Nunnally, due your holier-than-thou "morals" and your obvious inability to grow up, thus leading to your very limited understanding of such Code Geass basics as "How the Geass works" or even the PLOT, I seriously doubt that you understand anything in this series, much less Euphemia's death.

proEuphie
02-04-2010, 11:14 PM
1. It's your opinion that people are better off alive. To me, people are better off dead. Lelouch didn't have time. He had to make a decision in just a few seconds.

You just wrote that "people are better of dead". Do you mean that everybody is better off dead?

Lelouch did not have to think of a plan in just a few seconds. I say he did not think of new plan in just a few seconds. I believe that the plan he followed in episode 23, which I call plan three, was a slightly revised version of his plan two, which he was plotting from the end of episode 21 and at the beginning of episode 22, until he gave it up during his meeting with Euphie.

Lelouch would have needed to modify his plan two very slightly since the massacre was so similar to to the situation he was planning to cause. So to find a way to stop Euphemia and sava the Japanese from the Britannians and save Euphemia and get a lot of praise from the Japanese, all Lelouch had to do was remember his plan two which he had been expecting to carry out just minutes before and slightly alter it to account for the slightly different situation.

So if Lelouch's plan two had a way to help Euphemia escape from being lynched by the angry Japanese he could have used it in plan three with slight modifications to save Euphemia from being lynched by angry Japanese after the massacre.

Thus I suspect that Lelouch's plan three involved sacrificing innocent Euphemia's life in the hope of political gain because his plan two involved sacrificing innocent Euphemia's life in the hope of political gain. And that makes Lelouch too evil to care about.


2. Sorry, I was in a bad mood the months ago, when I posted this.

I'm glad you apologize but I'm not sure what you are apologized for. I was just pointing out that your advice was over a year too late and I will never be able to forget that accursed show, Code Geass.


3. Yeah. riiiight You're sooo enlightened.


Here's a story of Gundam 00 Episode 20 that reminded me of Euphy

Anew Returner was Lyle Dylandy's girlfriend. And she was secretly an Innovator, one of the enemies. Of course, at one point, she turns on Celestial Being. and as she does, Lyle defeats her in a fight and tears her cockpit open. Instead of killing her, he tells her that he understands her. Right before she goes with him, Ribbons(The villain) takes over her mind and forces her to kill Lyle, however Setsuna destroys her mobile suit and kills her.

Was Setsuna wrong in killing her, not capturing her?

Your story is either way too long or way too short. If Setsuna could have captured Anew Returner alive in time to save Lyle, and knew it, or even believed he had a good chance to, then all you had to write was :

"In Gundam Seed 00 Setsuna killed Anew Returner when he could probably have stopped her in time to save Lyle without killing her. Was Setsuna wrong in killing her, not capturing her?" And I would have written : 'YES SETSUNA WAS WRONG TO KILL HER INSTEAD OF CAPTURING HER!!!"

But if there was some reason why capturing her in time to stop her from killing Lyle was impossible or very difficult you should have mentioned it. That might make the question more complicated. But you did not mention any such factor.

If she already killed Lyle before Setsuna could do anything, then it was his duty to capture her if he could, letting her fate be decided later. If he was not in a hurry to save Lyle there was no reason to kill her if capturing her would be just as easy and as safe for him and thus self defense could not be used as a justification for killing her.

No one can ever be right to kill anyone if it is just as safe, and fast and easy for him to capture that person, and if there is no scientific (or more likely science fictional) reason why that person would be dangerous to other people if alive and confined. For example, if that person was infested with larvae of a super alien predator and those larvae would soon eat their way out of his body and spread across the planet eating everybody they found it would be right to kill instead of capture him. Or if he was infected with a 100 % fatal uncurable disease which was about to enter the air born stage and infect everyone around him. But except in such rare situations it is always murder to kill someone you can capture just as easy and as safely as you could kill them.

Anyway, I have doubts whether any good person in Setsuna's position should have lifted a finger to save Lyle or any other member of Celestial Being. Not after episode 11, in which Allelujah went on a mission to destroy the facility where he was turned into a super soldier and blew it up along with the current class of children, apparently following the original plan approved by the rest of Celestial Being. Unless there is some proof that it was absolutely necessary to destroy the facility right then in order to save countless millions of lives, and it was technically impossible for Celestrial Being to find a way to not kill the children, that action was a war crime and the murder of several children. After episode 11 I lost all interest in Gundam 00 for lack of protagonists who met my minimum standards of goodness..

MangaFanGuy
02-05-2010, 04:45 AM
Well I've been staying away from debates like these.
But I think some nitpicking is in order


Some posters have found fault with my parable of the trial of Shinji Ikari. So here is a new parable, which I hope will be a little less easy to nitpick.
actually it is waaaaay easier to nitpick
I will point out both contradictions and failed analogies to Euphemia

note all BOLD prints are quotes from your story

Standing orders say that whenever possible an enemy leader of the rank of leader-of-five-thousand or above must be captured to be used as a hostage to stop the battle.
this makes it less like euphemia
Cos no such order was in effect with her

And killing a defenseless enemy instead of capturing her is clearly an act of murder, punishable by death."

Defenceless?
but
"her gun in her holster"
she is armed and so not defenceless

despite the fact that she was unarmed with any weapon that could harm your mecha and just a couple of dozen feet away from your mecha?"
ah but this is rendered irrelevant because
"Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira, appeared on the ground and walked toward the Azurian"
he was no longer in his mecha
She was armed with a weapon that could have killed him
The fact it couldn't harm his mecha was irrelevant when he LEFT his mecha
(At the very least you could have him brought up on charges of negligence or dereliction of duty (I'm sure wolfgirl could give a better charge for this act))

I had no malice or criminal intent toward her.”

proven by this
"He hugged her back"
"his posture indicating he was feeling extreme emotions"

Prosecutor Butomon: “That letter from the deceased, Azurian Leader-of-five-thousand Eri Rikira, was found in the possessions of the accused, Leader-of-a-thousand Irshin Rikira -- her father.”

and changes nothing.
So the enemy was feeling down
boohoo
this is not an excuse to allow high level enemy soldiers to escape

on the charges of murdering the hundreds of Viridians
wait he is being charged with murder for what other people did????

What kind of screwy law is that?

slaughtered without mercy by the followers of Leader-of-five-thousand Rikira when they heard that she had been killed
how is that his fault.
Is this guy a mind reader?
Does he know that if he does X then 100's of civilians would die
no
therefore NOT GUILTY!

The Azurian mecha fumbled for its lasso
Lasso
can anyone say "impractical mecha weapon"

They clanged together. The hand of the Viridian mecha came into view, grabbing a power pack out of a pouch on the side of the Azurian mecha.
so they have compatible weapons systems?

A figure in a green and black Viridian flight suit, apparently Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira, appeared on the ground and walked toward the Azurian, his pistol still in its holster.
again stupid move
all defence of "She couldn't hurt him cos he was in a mecha" goes out the window
about the best you got is gross stupidity

Every one watching the tape wished that it had sound so they could hear what was going on. Suddenly the Viridian pushed the Azurian away. She fell to the ground and picked herself unsteadily up. The Viridian snatched his gun out of his holster and pointed toward her. Bright blue blood sprayed in all directions from between the Viridian and the Azurian. She fell writhing to the ground and rolled.
congratulations
I suppose you could also argue insubordination for not following orders
but not murder (Killing an armed combatant who as far as we know has not surrendered in any way is not murder)

Her living or dead body and the surrounding ground exploded, blasted by the Viridian mega-cannon.
ok the megaconon is overkill
and not comparible to Euphemia (Who was still alive)

Prosecutor Butomon: “End play.”

You don’t know anything about the laws of this fictional world, but based on your sense of right and wrong, do you believe that someone who does what Leader-of-a-thousand Rikira did should be convicted or acquitted?
Aquitted of murder yes
however courtmarshalled for disobeying orders, negligence, gross stupidity and sheer overkill would probably result in dishonorable discharge.

and lets list why this is nothing like Euphemia
-1/No orders to capture
-2/No weapons for prisoner capture on Lelouchs mecha
-3/Euphemia was ordering the massacre of every enemy she encountered and would continue to do so unless stopped (This is the thought at the time)
-4/Euphemia was in the act of killing civilians when confronted
-5/Euphemia wasn't a hot alien chick
-6/Considering her normal nature and the realities imposed by the Geass then capturing Euphemia could be seen as cruel and unusual punishment (No such thing for Eri?)

Rolo Vi Britannia
02-05-2010, 10:24 AM
You just wrote that "people are better of dead". Do you mean that everybody is better off dead?
Since I'm a Christian, I think so. Anyway, I think that dead is better than captured. Dead is definitely better than Geass zombied.


Lelouch did not have to think of a plan in just a few seconds. I say he did not think of new plan in just a few seconds. I believe that the plan he followed in episode 23, which I call plan three, was a slightly revised version of his plan two, which he was plotting from the end of episode 21 and at the beginning of episode 22, until he gave it up during his meeting with Euphie.
In Lelouch plan, he did not want Euphy to die. He just wanted the Japanese people to get mad and leave. Not murder her. He most likely thought Suzaku would have protected her in that case.


Lelouch would have needed to modify his plan two very slightly since the massacre was so similar to to the situation he was planning to cause. So to find a way to stop Euphemia and sava the Japanese from the Britannians and save Euphemia and get a lot of praise from the Japanese, all Lelouch had to do was remember his plan two which he had been expecting to carry out just minutes before and slightly alter it to account for the slightly different situation.
His plans none of his plans contained voilence on that scale. On episode 22, he says "Don't make me..." When Euphy's stars killing people.


I'm glad you apologize but I'm not sure what you are apologized for. I was just pointing out that your advice was over a year too late and I will never be able for forget that accursed show, Code Geass.
Okay then. I take it back. I thought you were talking about me insulting you. Lol, "accursed show" :laugh:



Your story is either way too long or way too short. If Setsuna could have captured Anew Returner alive in time to save Lyle, and knew it, or even believed he had a good chance to, then all you had to write was
For on thing, it's not Gundam seed 00. It's Gundam 00.
I've only seen it once, but I'm pretty sure there was no time. And it's wasn't as long as YOUR story.



Anyway, I have doubts whether any good person in Setsuna's position should have lifted a finger to save Lyle or any other member of Celestrial Being. Not after episode 11, in which Allelujah went on a mission to destroy the facility where he was turned into a super soldier and blew it up along with the current class of children, apparently following the original plan approved by the rest of Celestrial Being. Unless there is some proof that it was absolutely necessary to destroy the facility right then in order to save countless millions of lives, and it was technically impossible for Celestrial Being to find a way to not kill the children, that action was a war crime and the murder of several children. After episode 11 I lost all interest in Gundam 00.

You did NOT just say that to me! An extreme Allelujah fan. That's one of the best episodes of the first season. That scene made me fall in LOVE with that show.
The plan to destroy the lab was approved by Veda, a computer. It's Celestial Being's job to obey all of Veda's commands. Allelujah wanted to destroy the lab because they were promoting war, and he was raised in the lab. Not to mention everyone with Quantum Brainwaves were screwed up. They all have second personalities. Allelujah tried to think of a way to save the kids, but Hallelujah gave him no choice. It was either you blow it up, or I do. That was pretty much what he said. Not to mention just being around another super soldiers made Allelujah very weak due to the pain Quantum Brainwaves caused him. Plus, if he wouldn't have done it, Tieria Erde, another Gundam pilot would have shot him himself, or he would have done it, since on the first season, Tieria didn't care about humans.

By the way, here. This is what proEuphie reminds me of. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETO3-MxMe2Q

Rei
03-17-2010, 11:22 PM
Isn't this thread like: "Euphemia's Murder?"

wolfgirl90
03-17-2010, 11:38 PM
Isn't this thread like: "Euphemia's Murder?"

It is now, but that wasn't proEuphie's original intention (though she can barely keep her own threads in check, so hardly ever know what her intentions are).

What proEuphie was trying to do was inquire about anime characters who used their mechs to capture people, since she is convinced that mechs should be equipped with ways of capturing people alive instead of killing them. She even made a little "story" (if it can be called such) to illustrate her point.

However, since it was SO obvious that she was talking Euphemia's death more than anything else, that's how we ended up talking about that instead of mechs.:rolleyes:

Rei
03-18-2010, 12:32 AM
It is now, but that wasn't proEuphie's original intention (though she can barely keep her own threads in check, so hardly ever know what her intentions are).

What proEuphie was trying to do was inquire about anime characters who used their mechs to capture people, since she is convinced that mechs should be equipped with ways of capturing people alive instead of killing them. She even made a little "story" (if it can be called such) to illustrate her point.

However, since it was SO obvious that she was talking Euphemia's death more than anything else, that's how we ended up talking about that instead of mechs.:rolleyes:

I doubt that she's watched any other mecha anime other than Code Geass:ninja:

Well mechs were first created in anime (from my point of view) to destroy things. Attack stuff. Kill people. A symbol of mankind's advancement in technology. But with our peace-loving friend here, they're made to safely capture people? I don't know about that.

She's way too obsessed with Euphemia's death (as many other people than myself have said Before).

wolfgirl90
03-20-2010, 01:54 PM
I doubt that she's watched any other mecha anime other than Code Geass:ninja:

Considering her rather lax knowledge about most of the other anime that she has talked about, I don't think she has really watched ANY other anime besides Code Geass (and like this show and Gundam 00, she probably coped out half way through).:rolleyes:


Well mechs were first created in anime (from my point of view) to destroy things. Attack stuff. Kill people. A symbol of mankind's advancement in technology. But with our peace-loving friend here, they're made to safely capture people? I don't know about that.

Even today, tanks are not equipped with special equipment to capture enemies. "Capturing" people really isn't an objective; its usually a side-effect of some other action but we don't decide "Hey, let's capture some people today".:laugh:


She's way too obsessed with Euphemia's death (as many other people than myself have said Before).


The obsession, in and of itself, is not what I truly have a problem with; I can understand the obsession with Euphemia, although I simply disagree with it, what with my desire to she her get shot in the face (characters like Euphemia are just annoying to me). However, the constant whining about her death is the issue. She not just talking about Euphemia, but talking SOLELY about her death, as if it was the most important thing that happened in the series.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

While I can understand why a Euphemia-fan would be upset about her death, one should be over it by now (its a freaking cartoon; like I said before, there are children who read Harry Potter and got over the deaths in that series much faster). After almost two years, it not that much of a shock anymore (and considering that Euphemia was brought back in Nightmare of Nunnally, no Euphemia fan should be whining anymore). At this point, I simply do not care and instead of trying to understand proEuphie's point I actually want to see Euphemia being torn apart by lions as per her namesake.:closedeye