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proEuphie
03-21-2009, 03:56 PM
Original thread title: "Did Euphie Escape the Power of Her Geass Before Lelouch shot Her?"
Changed to remove the spoiler. -Aku (悪の光)

This is my post # 30 from Spoilers Warning: Code Geass friends to foes.


Originally Posted by wolfgirl90 /

.....I never said that a Geass will never wear off no matter what. What I DID say was that a Geass command won't wear off until the command is completed, and that is IF the command can be "completed" at all. For example, Lelouch's command for Suzaku to "live" has no time condition on it and was still in effect for over a year. A command like "kill the Japanese" has no time condition either. It has to be completed before the Geass can wear off.

A Geass command can be broken by shear willpower but only one person has been able to do this: Nunnally. Euphemia resisted it but fell to it anyway, so there is no point in saying "keep Euphemia in prison until she breaks the Geass" because she already proved that she wasn't able to. She only came out of the Geass when she was dying and it is not clear what caused that to happen; either a) she cared about Suzaku to much to hurt him or b) she was physically unable to carry out the command, as per the rules of the Geass.....

By the way, we are getting off topic.;)[/quoteI]

You are comparing Nunnally's apples with Euphemia's oranges when you imply that Nunnally had more of what Euphemia used to resist the geass. Nunnally used will power to break her geass and may have had much more than Euphemia. Euphemia resisted with her superior "won't power", her resistance to killing. Since Nunnally used F.L.E.I.J.A. weapons without being forced by a geass command she was obviously inferior to Euphemia in resistance to killing, in "won't power".

Why do you say that Euphemia resisted but was unable to break the geass command while Nunnally was able to break her geass? Why do you assume that Euphemia, the only person known to resist the geass, was permanently defeated by her geass?

Suppose that you believed that being blind was a crime that deserved the death penalty. Suppose you believed that Nunnually should be shot immediately for becoming blind. Suppose that some Britannian shared that belief and shot Nunnally a few minutes after she went blind. Then we would never have known that Nunnally had the will power to break her geass after eight long years.

Nunnally broke her geass after eight years. And possibly Nunnally's subconscious was attacking the geass for all of those eight years, wearing it down until finally Nunnally could break though and free herself with a tremendous effort. And possibly Nunnally's geass was running out of "energy" by itself, wearing down after years and years.

But is there any evidence that Nunnally resisted her geass at first? No.

If someone who didn't resist at first could wear down the geass after eight years how soon could Euphemia's subconscious wear down her geass?

Maybe in about eight to eighty minutes. Which would be about 91,476 to 914,760 times as fast as Nunnally (oops, it would be only 52,596 to 525,960 times as fast. My calculator had a glitch). Just before being shot Euphemia seemed to be going from being controlled by the geass to her normal self.

When Euphemia was shooting at fleeing Japanese people, her intense resistance to killing was not strong enough to defeat the geass, indicating that her geass command was still very strong. (Although possibly her resistance to killing might have made her aim poorly). A minute or two later, the geass was so weak it could not stop her normal self from emerging to socialize. The power of the geass command was plummeting during those minutes.

When she recognized Kallen and said that she was the girl from the island, Euphemia was probably not totally controlled by the geass, since a mere "not a target" would do for the geass. It sounded more like Euphemia, interested to meet someone she remembered.

When she recognized Zero's mask she apologized for thinking he was Japanese. Thus she still remembered the massacre. A little later she asked his help to administer the SAZ. If she remembered the massacre she would have realized the zone would be deserted and there would be no need for anybody's help in ruling it. So she had forgotten the massacre. When Lelouch shot her she asked why. Obviously she did not remember doing anything that would make Zero want to shoot her.

When a geass command stops the person does not remember what they did while controlled by it. Euphemia was forgetting what she did while controlled by the geass, so she was probably rapidly escaping from the control of the geass.

Her superior "won't power", which enabled her to resist the geass at first, continued to attack it subconsciously. In about a mere hour it was so weak that merely seeing someone familiar was enough to let her true personality emerge from the control of the geass. Or else the geass command was so weakened by the struggle to overcome Euphemia's resistance that it only had enough power left for about a hour. Either way, the geass command was almost totally defeated and didn't have much time left.

When Euphemia on her deathbed asked if Suzaku was Japanese the geass took advantage of her weakened state to flare up again for a second or two. It had not been in control continuously since Lelouch gave the command, but was trying to regain a lost control.

I say this theory fits the facts at least as well as yours does.

It is said that despair is a deadly sin. That means that thinking that you are already damned and there is no hope of successful repentance will get you damned. It means that giving up on life and committing suicide is a sin. And it also means that giving up on somebody else and deciding they are better off dead is a sin. It is a sin when committed by old-time Japanese who looked upon the sick, the wounded, and the insane as damaged goods not worth saving. It is a sin when committed by Lelouch in the Code Geass universe. It is a sin when committed by Wolfgirl90 in our universe, where her words might influence the actions of other people [/quote]

wolfgirl90
03-22-2009, 01:05 PM
Wow. Thank you proEuphie for calling me out like that:rolleyes:. You couldn't have just asked the question in a generic fashion without pointing me out (and without the horrendous spelling errors)? Whatever.

1. The rules of the Geass state that a Geass command won't take effect if a person is physically or mentally incapable (whether by intellegence, values, etc) of doing so. While Euphemia resisted, apparently she was not mentally incapable of carrying out the genocide of thousands of people, so the Geass command took over anyway. That command goes against everything she believes in, but she still carried it out. Nunnally couldn't have resisted the Geass because she was already weak (she was already shot in the legs), young and a command like "I am going to change your memories to make you go blind" is not nearly as mentally scarring as "kill the Japanese", which Euphemia still carried despite her supposed superior "won't power".

2. It would be sad if Nunnally was killed simply for being blind. However, going blind would be a victimless crime. Going on a killing spree is not a victimless crime by any stretch of the imagination and certainly one I would not want to wait EIGHT YEARS to see if this person would be cured of.

3. Euphemia was able to show that she still had the ability to carry on a conversation and kept her personality while under the Geass (like everyone else). Being the nice and polite girl that she is, she politely asked the Japanese if they would kindly kill themselves. When they didn't, she killed them instead. She was able to talk to Dalton, but shot him because he wanted to stop her. She was able to give the command to the soldiers to kill the Japanese. She was able to talk to Lelouch because he was close to her. So, that is not a sign that the Geass was weakening.

4. A subject's memories are supressed only after the command is over, not during (unless that is part of the command itself). Euphemia still remembered that she asked Zero to help her with the SAZ, however, at the same time, she knows that she is supposed to be killing the Japanese, so these things conflict with each other (and she knows this). When she was shot, the Geass broke since she was no longer able to carry out the command (a person can't do much of anything after being shot in the stomach) and all memories of the massacre were supressed in her memory.

Also, I don't know where you are going with the whole "sin" comment. Like what you did in the beginning, you did not put it in a generic way; you basically singled me out. "It is a sin when committed by Wolfgirl90 in our universe, where her words might influence the actions of other people". What exactly is that supposed to mean? What are you trying to say? If it sounds like I am taking this personally, it is because I am. I get enough crap from people getting in my face about sinning (due to my religion), that I do not need to hear it from you. Yes, I do think that Euphemia was better off dead rather than continuing to kill thousands upon thousands of people or rotting away in a jail cell (as she is guilty is mass murder and I hope that Euphemia would have enough honor in her body to own up to what she did instead of living a pampered live with her sister had she not died). But guess what? She was already dead when I made that comment and me saying that was not going to change anything (she is a cartoon character, so it certainly wouldn't have changed anything). I have my opinion and you have yours.

ichimoku_fanboy
03-22-2009, 07:22 PM
she was absolutely exausted right before she died, i imagine it took an incredible amount of concentration just to articulate words when she was with Suzaku at the end...

which means she prbly could only focus on one thing at a time, so i say no she didnt, she just couldnt think straight...

proEuphie
03-22-2009, 11:03 PM
Wow. Thank you proEuphie for calling me out like that:rolleyes:. You couldn't have just asked the question in a generic fashion without pointing me out (and without the horrendous spelling errors)? Whatever.

1. The rules of the Geass state that a Geass command won't take effect if a person is physically or mentally incapable (whether by intellegence, values, etc) of doing so. While Euphemia resisted, apparently she was not mentally incapable of carrying out the genocide of thousands of people, so the Geass command took over anyway. That command goes against everything she believes in, but she still carried it out. Nunnally couldn't have resisted the Geass because she was already weak (she was already shot in the legs), young and a command like "I am going to change your memories to make you go blind" is not nearly as mentally scarring as "kill the Japanese", which Euphemia still carried despite her supposed superior "won't power".

2. It would be sad if Nunnally was killed simply for being blind. However, going blind would be a victimless crime. Going on a killing spree is not a victimless crime by any stretch of the imagination and certainly one I would not want to wait EIGHT YEARS to see if this person would be cured of.

3. Euphemia was able to show that she still had the ability to carry on a conversation and kept her personality while under the Geass (like everyone else). Being the nice and polite girl that she is, she politely asked the Japanese if they would kindly kill themselves. When they didn't, she killed them instead. She was able to talk to Dalton, but shot him because he wanted to stop her. She was able to give the command to the soldiers to kill the Japanese. She was able to talk to Lelouch because he was close to her. So, that is not a sign that the Geass was weakening.

4. A subject's memories are supressed only after the command is over, not during (unless that is part of the command itself). Euphemia still remembered that she asked Zero to help her with the SAZ, however, at the same time, she knows that she is supposed to be killing the Japanese, so these things conflict with each other (and she knows this). When she was shot, the Geass broke since she was no longer able to carry out the command (a person can't do much of anything after being shot in the stomach) and all memories of the massacre were supressed in her memory.

Also, I don't know where you are going with the whole "sin" comment. Like what you did in the beginning, you did not put it in a generic way; you basically singled me out. "It is a sin when committed by Wolfgirl90 in our universe, where her words might influence the actions of other people". What exactly is that supposed to mean? What are you trying to say? If it sounds like I am taking this personally, it is because I am. I get enough crap from people getting in my face about sinning (due to my religion), that I do not need to hear it from you. Yes, I do think that Euphemia was better off dead rather than continuing to kill thousands upon thousands of people or rotting away in a jail cell (as she is guilty is mass murder and I hope that Euphemia would have enough honor in her body to own up to what she did instead of living a pampered live with her sister had she not died). But guess what? She was already dead when I made that comment and me saying that was not going to change anything (she is a cartoon character, so it certainly wouldn't have changed anything). I have my opinion and you have yours.

I am sorry if I offended you. And I'm sorry about the misspellings too -- you should have seen my post before I corrected it. And now for the response:

1. The rules of geass do not state anything. They are not a book. We can not quote them and discuss the precise meaning of their wording. They are what can be deduced with greater or lesser accuracy from what is seen on the show.

Many people would refuse to kill one or more people of their own free will or in obedience to orders. Many other people will kill people for various reasons. In Code Geass hundreds or thousands of Britannian soldiers and Black Knights obey orders to kill, even to commit massacres.

But almost no real person obeys an order to kill himself except as an honorable way to avoid disgrace and execution. The Britannian soldiers who Lelouch commands to kill themselves in the first episode are obeying orders to massacre, yet they would not obey orders to kill themselves, But the geass makes them do something that they are much more reluctant to do than they are to massacre.

If Euphemia did not have a lot more "won't power" than those soldiers she would have followed the order to kill without a struggle. Nunnally, who is a much better person than those solders, was willing to kill by using atomic weapons when she was fifteen and had led a very inactive life until recently. Euphemia seriously believed that she could not kill when she was sixteen and had some experience as a military and political leader. Clearly Euphemia has more "won't power" when it comes to killing than Nunnally. So Nunnally could not possibly have broken her geass using more of what Euphemia used to resist her geass. Nunnally used something else.
And Nunnally would not have resisted a geass command to massacre as much as Euphemia, or at all.

By the way, a seven-year-old child might resist going blind more than killing, since he or she might not understand death and killing as clearly as not being able to see.

My point is if Nunnally didn't resist the geass command at first but broke it after eight years, Euphemia who did resist her geass command at first could be expected to do at least as well as Nunnally and defeat her geass command in eight years or much less.

2 I am glad that unlike many real historical people you agree that Nunnally should not have been abandoned to starve or even killed for going blind. But why do you accuse Euphemia of committing a crime? Euphemia was as innocent of the killing spree as the unborn child of a pregnant killer would be. Though out history countless women sentenced to death have tried to get pregnant to delay their executions for nine months, because even the harsh and cruel laws of their eras didn't allow killing innocent unborn children even to rid the world of vile prostitutes, pickpockets, counterfeiters, and thieves.

You say you wouldn't want to wait eight years to see if a killer got cured. Neither would I, if the only choices were to kill her or to let her go free to continue killing and maybe even give her some more ammo while you were at it. But there is a third choice, these new institutions called prisons and insane asylums where dangerous people are kept until they die or are released because they are believed to be no longer dangerous.

Once Euphemia was locked up she would be much less dangerous than any of the many thousands of Britannian soldiers and Black Knights who were free and given access to dangerous weapons and might be ordered at any time to commit a massacre.

Where I live there was a famous killer, Joseph Kallinger, who supposedly thought he had a divine mission to exterminate the whole human race. He was locked up for twenty years and never escaped to kill anyone, and his young son who helped in hs crimes was eventually released and is living somewhere under a different name. Charles Manson has been in custody for almost forty years and never escaped to kill anyone.

3 You say that people obeying a geass can recognize other people and carry on a conversation with them, so Euphemia's talking to Lelouch doesn't mean that she was out of the geass. When Euphemia was clearly controlled by the geass everything she did was to accomplish the purpose to "kill the Japanese". How is inviting Zero/Lelouch to help administer the zone going to kill any Japanese? Isn't that a waste of time for someone compelled to slaughter them?

If Euphemia was under a compulsion to kill only the Japanese in the stadium or only the Japanese in the SAZ she would have to hurry because they were doing their best to get away. Soon they would be out of the stadium and out of the Zone and she and the soldiers wouldn't be able to tell the target Japanese from the non target Japanese.

If Euphemia was compelled to kill all the Japanese the geass had a big problem. Assume that there were 50,000,000 to 200,000,000 Japanese and the average lifespan was seventy years. Thus the replacement rate should be about 714,285.7 to 2,857,142.8 births per year, or 1.3580608 to 5.4322433 per minute. If Japanese babies were being born between one half to twice the replacement rate there would be 0.6790304 to 10.864486 births per minute. Euphemia would have to kill Japanese at least that fast to ensure that they would all be killed or die of old age within the next seventy years.

If you assume that 50,000,000 people were killed during the six years of World war II that would average 8,333,333.3 per year, 22,815.423 per day, 950.642.62 per hour,and 15.844043 per minute. So the greatest slaughter in history, fought by armies numbering in the tens of millions, killed people 1.4583334 to 23.333332 times as fast as Euphemia and her puny force would have to kill the Japanese just to keep up with their birthrate.

I say that Euphemia was mainly free of the geass when she talked to Lelouch. You say that the geass controlled her when she talked to Lelouch. If the geass controlled her, why did it let her waste time talking to Lelouch about a topic which had nothing to do with killing the Japanese? Why didn't it make her ask if she could borrow his nightmare?

I am glad to see that you are not one the people who imagine that if captured Euphemia would be "screaming like a foaming nutcase while she tries desperately hard trying to kill people" and that being unable to kill Japanese would be a torment to her. I am glad to see that you disagree and think that being under the control of the gesss is an easy compulsion, that it kindly gives its subjects breaks for personal matters even when it has an almost impossible task and valuable time is being wasted. If Euphemia was under the control of the geass when she talked to Lelouch, clearly she would not suffer if she was kept out of sight of Japanese and had non-Japanese people (such as non-Japanese newsmen at the stadium who could be given geass commands to obey Lelouch) to guard her and eventually become her friends.

4 You say that when Euphemia talked to Lelouch she remembered that she was supposed to be killing Japanese. I agree that she did when she apologized for thinking that Zero was Japanese, but I think that she forgot it by the time that she asked Zero's help in administering the Zone. If she remembered anything about massacring and chasing Japanese she would know she wouldn't need Zero's help.

Your statement that she still remembered the massacre is puzzling. Can you read the minds of fictional television characters or did I miss a scene where a brave non-Japanese newsman ran up to Euphemia and asked her if she remembered massacring the Japanese (surely the first question he would ask in those circumstances)?

You say that the geass broke and Euphemia forgot what she did when she was shot. I suppose you claim that the geass reactivated briefly when she asked Suzaku if he was Japanese. So you abandon the claim that it controlled her from the time Lelouch spoke it up to when she asked Suzaku if he was Japanese, but still claim that it was in control up to when she was shot? I think that asking Lelouch to administer the zone is proof that she didn't remember the massacre and thus was out of the control of the geass at that moment.

And if the geass was in control of Euphemia when she was shot it must have been released control very fast and Euphemia must have realized that Lelouch shot her really fast. She asked him why while she was still falling backwards.

I am sorry that you are offended at being accused of sinning. But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences.

How can you say that Euphemia was guilty of mass murder? Even under the harsh laws of three hundred years ago, many accused pirates got reduced sentences (imprisonment instead of hanging) or were acquitted when they showed that they had been forced to join the pirates. And yet the force that was used against them was not nearly as strong, nor as continuous, as the force that forced Euphemia to kill. [/quote]
Tens or hundreds of thousands of accused witches were tortured to confess to their imaginary crimes and to accuse other innocent people of being witches. Were they guilty of perjury and murder because they gave into the torture and named innocent people as witches or were they helpless to resist the tortures? And did the geass torture Euphemia by stimulating the pain centers in her brain to make her submit?
I have read of a thirteen-year-old boy who was accused of witchcraft and thus faced with the choices of admitting guilt and being executed or claiming innocence, being tortured until he admitted guilt, and being executed. But he found a third choice by admitting that he had been at the sabbats he was accused of being at but claiming he had been bewitched and was not there of his own free will, and so escaped execution. Do you think it would have been better if the judges had rejected his "not guilty by reason of being bewitched" defense and sentenced him to death? If not you must admit that in the world of Code Geass Euphemia really was "not guilty by reason of being bewitched". 03/27/09 [/quote]

blackrosetwilight
03-24-2009, 09:01 PM
..........no her eyes were still glowing, so no

proEuphie
04-08-2009, 10:32 PM
..........no her eyes were still glowing, so no

My compliments on such a short and to the point post. I regret that I will be unable to adequately refute your argument in so few words.

Even if her irises were still circled with red up to the moment Lelouch shot her, that would not prove that she was totally under the control of the geass until then.

1) The time it took her to fall back hardly seems like enough time for the geass to leave her and her to realize that Lelouch shot her before she said or thought "Why, Lelouch?" while still falling backwards. Unless you suppose that beside possibly being super humanly good and innocent she was also a super humanly fast thinker.

It should not take someone long to realize that person X shot them if they feel a strong impact and see person X pointing a gun at them, but it should takes at least a large percentage of a second.

The scene may be shown in slow motion but we can assume that Euphemia was falling at 1G acceleration and had a fraction of a second for the geass to end control, and for her normal personality to awake, for her to realize that Lelouch shot her, and to say or think "why, Lelouch?" while still in the air.

The time factor makes it far more likely that she was partially free of the geass control when Lelouch shot her and that her normal self was partially conscious when Lelouch pointed the gun at her and shot her. Thus she would have seen him shoot her instead of deducing it between being hit and hitting the ground.

2) In her death scene Euphemia was conscious and talked before her irises became encircled with red. Then after a time she said "Suzaku, you're Japanese, aren't you?" and then she said that she mustn't do such a terrible thing, clearly resisting the efforts of the geass to get her to try to kill Suzaku. Then Euphemia was peaceful for a while, even though her irises were still encircled in red. Clearly she wasn't trying to kill Suzaku or fighting the compulsion, so clearly it wasn't working on her very hard. Then the circles around her irises finally faded away.

Clearly the geass was never strong enough to get her to act, and for most of the time that Euphemia's irises were encircled she was peacefully unaware of any impulse to kill Suzaku.

So in that scene Euphemia's irises were encircled whenever the geass command had even a slight degree of control over Euphemia, even though that degree of control was not enough to make her act or even for her to be aware of it and resist. We might assume that Euphemia's eyes were encircled with red whenever the geass command had at least five, or ten, or fifteen, percent of full control over her.

And if her irises would be encircled with red in the scene where Lelouch shot her whenever the geass command had at least five, or ten, or fifteen, percent of full control over her, then it might have had a lot less than one hundred percent of full control over Euphemia when Lelouch shot her. It might have had seventy five percent, or fifty five percent, or forty percent, or twenty five percent, or fifteen percent, or whatever.

Euphemia might have regained almost full control by the time that Lelouch shot her without the red circles around her irises fading away, if they behaved in that scene the way they behaved in her deathbed scene.

"The eyes do not have it". They are not decisive proof that the geass was in full control of Euphemia up to the moment when Lelouch shot her.

3) When someone controlled by one of Lelouch's geass commands finishes his task and returns to normal, he forgets what he did when controlled by the geass. Euphemia was shooting at fleeing Japanese when Kallen interrupted her. Clearly at that point The geass was still strong enough to overcome her intense reluctance to kill.

A few minutes later Euphemia seem to succeed in reloading her machine gun and then recognized Zero, who she knew was her beloved brother Lelouch, and said she was sorry she thought he was Japanese. Clearly she still remembered that her mission was killing Japanese people.

Then she asked Zero to help her administer the SAZ. Clearly at this point the geass command could not stop her wasting time with something which had nothing to do with killing Japanese. And clearly she had forgotten the massacre. Then she said "No, that's not right." At this point she remembered vaguely that the SAZ was no longer the plan, but she probably didn't remember the massacre clearly. Then she was silent, probably wondering what was going on and trying to remember how she got there.

When Lelouch shot her she asked why, and so probably had totally forgotten the massacre.

Thus in a few minutes the power of the geass command over Euphemia seemed to plummet from full or almost full control to almost zero control, no doubt due to the continued resistance of her subconscious mind, which probably found an effective means of attacking the geass during those minutes.

4) Nunnally broke her geass induced blindness by a desperate act of will after eight years. I believe her subconscious mind, desiring to see, fought against the geass all those eight years and weakened it until Nunnally was finally able to make a strong conscious effort to see and broke it.

I believe that Euphemia, who resisted her geass command at first, would have worn down and defeated her geass in much less time than Nunnally, who did not resist her geass at first.

Euphemia might have broken her geass command in half the time it took Nunnally, and thus when Euphie was twenty. Then she might have had forty to eighty years of life free from the control of the geass, and much of it might have been in freedom from confinement once the authorities decided she had been cured.

Or she might have broken her geass in one year, or in a few months, or in a few weeks, or in a few days.

But it looks to me like she defeated her geass in a few minutes, and was almost totally free of its control when Lelouch shot her.

5) And Lelouch probably saw that she was almost totally free of the control of the geass. When he walked up to her he would have noticed the condition of her machine gun. And if she had succeeded in reloading it he would have noticed it. He could have shot her to death right then, or wounded her in the arm and/or the leg, or punched her in the stomach or the jaw, or hit her in the head with the butt of his gun, or used a karate chop on her. Or asked her to put down the machine gun and go to his nightmare to discuss their future actions.

But instead he walked past her and away from her for about twenty or thirty feet with his back to her while she held a loaded machine gun. He knew that her normal self would never shoot anyone, let alone him, and would prefer to run, hide, beg for mercy, or be killed instead of fighting if she suspected he would attack her. And he apparently saw that the geass control of her was now far too weak to force her to shoot him as a possible threat, not without a struggle that there was no sign of as he walked past and away from her.

Lelouch saw Euphemia's superhuman resistance against the geass command at first. And he saw that she had somehow greatly weakened the control of the geass over her. He knew that she would not be dangerous to anyone for long.

And he murdered her anyway. [/quote]

PS. My original post in this thread, which was originally # 30, 03/16/09, in "Spoilers Warnings: Code Geass friends to foes" contains just one leg of my three-pronged attack on the idea that if captured Euphemia would have to be held a prisoner for the rest of her life or at least for a year until Jeremiah's geass canceler was introduced. for the other two ways that Euphemia could have been cured in much less than a year see my post # 32, 03/19/09, in "Spoilers Warnings: Code Geass friends to foes".

It is said that despair is a deadly sin. That means that thinking that you are already damned and there is no hope of successful repentance will get you damned. It means that giving up on life and committing suicide is a sin. And it also means that giving up on somebody else and deciding they are better off dead is a sin. It is a sin when committed by old-time Japanese who looked upon the sick, the wounded, and the insane as damaged goods not worth saving. It is a sin and a crime when committed by Lelouch in the Code Geass universe. It can be a bad influence on other people when committed by anime fans in our universe, where their ideas can influence the actions of others when they decide the fates of sick, wounded, disabled, insane or otherwise helpless persons. [/quote]

blackrosetwilight
04-09-2009, 08:30 AM
1. Thats for dramatic effect have people been using since the invention of slow motion effect
2. No matter how you put she was still under it influence
3. See Lelouch geass got stronger at this point of the story which may have left some after effect on poor euphy but dont forget she still kept on shooting
4. Ok this one I dont know how to answer since its just one of your theory again so Im going to have to make one up too. Maybe it got weaker because the user of that geass died or like a disease developed some ressitance over the years or that once she was presented with the truth the geass broke in the same case with lelouch.
5. Look for that time Lelouch only knew that a geass couldnt be worn off until the victim has completed their task and euphy's task was to kill all the japanese and euphy was on a killing spree and there's a whole lot japanese people in japan. Even if lelouch was to have capture her her command to her soldier would've still continue. but still this is still just your speculation

proEuphie
04-09-2009, 08:15 PM
1. Thats for dramatic effect have people been using since the invention of slow motion effect
2. No matter how you put she was still under it influence
3. See Lelouch geass got stronger at this point of the story which may have left some after effect on poor euphy but dont forget she still kept on shooting
4. Ok this one I dont know how to answer since its just one of your theory again so Im going to have to make one up too. Maybe it got weaker because the user of that geass died or like a disease developed some ressitance over the years or that once she was presented with the truth the geass broke in the same case with lelouch.
5. Look for that time Lelouch only knew that a geass couldnt be worn off until the victim has completed their task and euphy's task was to kill all the japanese and euphy was on a killing spree and there's a whole lot japanese people in japan. Even if lelouch was to have capture her her command to her soldier would've still continue. but still this is still just your speculation

1) Yes. but Code geass is supposed to take place on our Earth in an alternate universe. The force of gravity should be the same. It should take Euphemia only about a quarter or a half of a second to fall backwards to the ground. Why don't you have someone timed falling backwards onto a mattress to see how long it takes?
Euphemia's recognition that Lelouch shot her should be squeezed into that fraction of a second. no matter how many seconds it takes her to hit the ground in slow motion. Unless her normal self was already conscious before Lelouch shot her. If the geass control of her was very weak and her normal self was conscious she would have seen Lelouch point the gun at her and felt the impact, instead of awakening while already falling toward the ground.
2) Euphemia's eyes were circled with red for a much longer time than she was shown reacting to the geass command. She seemed peaceful during most of the time that her eyes were encircled with red. Most of the time that her irises were encircled with red, Euphemia was not trying to kill Suzaku and was not resisting the urge to kill Suzaku, but seemed unaware of any compulsion to kill Suzaku. The compulsion to kill Suzaku was never strong enough to make Euphemia actually try to kill him, and most of the time that her irises were encircled with red the compulsion seemed to be too weak for Euphemia to even notice it. No matter how you put it, Euphemia's irises were encircled with red at times when the geass command had far less than 100 percent control of her, and even at times when it had only very little control of her, too little for her to even notice.
No matter how you put it, the eyes do not have it.
3) Euphemia did not keep on shooting up to the time that Lelouch shot her. Her ammo clip jammed and she spent time replacing it, and then she recognized Zero and talked to him for a while before he shot her. Zero walked right up to her. He could have prevented her from resuming shooting by shooting her dead right then. Or by shooting her in an arm and/or a leg and capturing her. Or by punching or kicking her in the jaw or the stomach and capturing her. Or by banging her on the head with the butt of his pistol and capturing her.
Or he could have asked Euphie to put down the machine gun and go into his nightmare to discuss their future plans. If she refused to put down the machine he might have had to kill her or capture her violently. If she put down the machine gun he could put his arms around her in a brotherly way, restricting her ability to use her arms, and walked her into his nightmare where he and CC could have captured her and tied her up.
If Lelouch thought that Euphie was dangerous to him he would have killed or captured her immediately. If he thought that she might shoot at any passing Japanese he should have killed or captured her immediately.
But instead he walked past her and away from her with his back to her. He was confident that neither Euphemia's own personality nor the geass command was going to shoot him in the back or hit him in the head with the machine gun or something heavy picked up from the ground. And if he wasn't perfectly confident that Euphemia wouldn't shoot at any Japanese who might have come into sight during those moments he didn't care about how many Japanese she killed.
Lelouch didn't seem to be worried that Euphemia might resume shooting.
4) As I said, it seems reasonable that if Euphemia was the only person known to resist the geass she would probably become free of its control sooner than anyone else ever did. So if Nunnally became free of the geass for any reason after eight years, Euphemia would have a good chance of becoming free of the geass after eight years or even much less than eight years. Being a prisoner for eight years would not be a fate worse than death, as some people who think that killing Euphie was a good idea seem to think, nor would keeping one more prisoner for eight years be much of a problem in a world with thousands or millions of prisoners.
And Euphemia's behavior before being shot certainly seems to indicate that she was partially under the control of the geass and partially free of it's control.
5) How can you say that at that time Lelouch knew that a geass command would not wear off until it was completed? At most he could have had one of his experimental subjects obeying a geass for a few months. That would leave him plenty of room to believe that Euphemia's geass could possibly wear off after a few years in confinement. And Lelouch usually gave commands which would be followed in just a few minutes, indicating that possibly he found by experimentation that his subjects would only work at obeying a geass command for a limited time before it wore off. That would explain why Lelouch did not give commands like "You will always be kind to the numbers" or "Obey all my orders for the rest of your life".
And certainly CC wouldn't tell Lelouch how long it might take for a geass command to wear off.
You seem to assume that the only way Lelouch could possibly save the Japanese from Euphemia was to kill her. Do you think that if Euphemia was locked up and confined the power of the geass would radiate outwards from her jail cell and make all the Japanese drop dead?
And you mention Euphemia's command to her soldiers. Obvious a live Euphemia would be better for getting her soldiers to stop killing than a dead one. Lelouch could broadcast a discussion with her on the Britannian command frequencies in the hope that she might reveal that she had ordered the massacre without authority from Cornelia or the Emperor, that she was disobeying her superiors and that the soldiers had no proper authority to massacre. The geass might try to stop Euphemia from revealing that. But Lelouch might be able to outwit the geass. He might, for example, tell Euphemia that his agents in Tokyo will torture Cornelia to death for ordering the massacre which might make Euphemia defy the geass enough to say that Cornelia had not authorized the massacre. And if Euphie was free of the geass control by the time she was captured she would want to order her men to stop killing.
Or Lelouch could use her as a hostage to get Cornelia to order Euphemia's soldiers to stop fighting.[/quote]

blackrosetwilight
04-10-2009, 11:02 AM
Im stopping here since neither of us are going no where if we continue, so ok you're 100% right eupy reisted geass but whoopty doo she still died... cuz the lacus fan killed her cuz there can only be one pink hair peace loving princess

wolfgirl90
04-10-2009, 03:45 PM
@proEuphie: I accept your apology from one of your previous posts, but again I do not know what you were trying to say. That whole "sinner" bit has been used by you before (and you used it again). In fact, its practically word for word from the previous time you used it (you are apparently trying to preach something, otherwise you wouldn't be repeating this three times), except that you were talking specifically about me rather than anime fans in general (which is why I ignored it the first time but got offended this time). Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:

"But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences."

Pardon me?:mad: Here is another quote from you:

"And here is another way to undo the geass:
Lelouch captures a bunch of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji massacre site. He takes one and says he is sentenced to die by gunshot for taking part in the massacre, but instead Zero will burn him at the stake unless he helps Zero. This girl CC will give him a geass power, and if that geass power is the power to undo one of Zero's geass commands, the soldier will be shot instead of burned at the stake. CC gives a power to the soldier, they bring in Euphemia, Zero tells the soldier to undo the geass command, and CC checks if the geass is gone from Euphemia. If it is gone, Lelouch shoots the soldier, if not Lelouch ties him to a stake and lights the fire and brings in the next soldier to try again."

Ignoring the fact that that wouldn't even work (Geass powers are based on one's inner most desires, not necessarily what's needed at the time, so Lelouch will end up killing an unknown amount of soldiers before realizing its not working), its apparently bad for me to say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her and that apparently makes me violent (even though we are discussing a cartoon), but its okay to kill a bunch of soldiers on the off chance that it could save one (count them: one) person? And you used that "sin" quote again (in case you didn't notice, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about this). Like I said before, despite what I say about Euphemia, I won't change the fact that she is dead. I did not influence that. Lelouch didn't influence that either (although he did kill her). The creators did that. I could be a "sinner" (I would appreciate you not calling me that again) for losing hope in Euphemia and saying that she is better of dead (I didn't "lose hope", for she WAS ALREADY DEAD; what hope is there to be had?), but having hope in her is not going to change the overall fact that she is dead. You can say that you are a better person for not giving up on her and trying to figure out how to keep her alive, HOWEVER, that does not stop the fact that she died before any of us decided our opinions on this. In fact, we wouldn't be here other wise. I can say that Euphemia had to die until my face turned blue but that does NOT mean that I decided her fate. And it doesn't mean anything. People, not just anime fans, talk about television characters all the time. If one person thinks that a character should die, that's honestly their opinion and you are not automatically a better person because you think the person should live.

Like I said before, Euphemia's personality (or anyone's personality, mind you) is not locked or suppressed while under the influence of the Geass. Just because she is acting nice does not mean that the Geass is wearing of (in fact, it is the sign of absolutely nothing:rolleyes:). She greeted Zero since she knew that he was her half-brother Lelouch and talked about the SAZ, which was the whole point of him being there in the first place (the memories of the SAZ would not be suppressed). Of course, creating the SAZ completely contradicts her current action of killing every Japanese she can find. When Lelouch shot her, she said, "Lelouch, why?" Whether this means she broke the Geass or not is not really clear. Even while under the influence of the Geass, she would be completely confused as to why her beloved half-brother just shot her in the stomach. If the gun shot broke the Geass (since would she physically incapable of carrying out much of anything once being shot, as per the rule), she would be even more confused as to why Lelouch shot her. So, saying "Lelouch, why?" doesn't necessarily mean she came out of the Geass (which is obvious since the Geass came back when she was in the hospital).

Speaking of her being shot, have you ever heard the phrase "Every time you place logic into an anime, God kills a catgirl?" This basically means that certain logical approaches to actions in anime not only do not work, but one is wasting their time trying to figure them out. Most people are aware that it takes only about a second to fall backwards under normal gravity. But there is no point in calculating that in a slow motion scene. The whole POINT of a slow motion scene is to allow more time for an action to take place. They slowed down the scene where Euphemia is shot to allow her to say "Lelouch, why?", knowing that under normal circumstances, she probably wouldn't be able to open her mouth before falling on the ground. Lelouch even said an entire sentence to her while she was falling! So, trying to figure out if she came out of the Geass based on this is pointless.

Now, to the "more pressing" matter: saving Euphemia. Lelouch NEVER intended on saving Euphemia's life in the first place, so there is no real point in offering tips to the contrary. He already threatened to shot her once before, and at the SAZ, he decided to have her shot him, make him look like a martyr, and to hell with the consequences of what happened to Euphemia. That was the original plan. Once she started shooting people, he decided to use the situation to his advantage and exploit Euphemia. He COULD have restrained her (actually, Lelouch has zero muscle power, so who knows if this would work). He COULD have tied her up. He COULD have captured her. He COULD have made her a prisoner. He COULD have saved her life. HOWEVER, that was NEVER part of the plan to begin with. He wanted to exploit Euphemia to the fullest during that situation, which was to blame the massacre on her, kill her (might as well; the Japanese would never except any punishment less than death for Euphemia), make the Japanese riot against Britannia and create an entirely new nation (matching the original plan).

To answer your question (since you danced around it many, many times), no, Euphemia didn't escape the Geass. This comes from both my opinion and your own. I say she not only didn't escape the Geass before she was shot, but she didn't "escape" the Geass until she ultimately died. So my answer is no. Since you have never directly answered your own question, let me give it for you: Euphemia was really, REALLY close to breaking the Geass when Lelouch arrived. By the time he was there, the Geass barely had any control over her. However, "barely" does not mean "none" or "broken". Remember, your question was whether or not she broke the Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her. Apparently, the answer would be: no.

Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.:rolleyes:

proEuphie
04-11-2009, 08:20 PM
@proEuphie: I accept your apology from one of your previous posts, but again I do not know what you were trying to say. That whole "sinner" bit has been used by you before (and you used it again). In fact, its practically word for word from the previous time you used it (you are apparently trying to preach something, otherwise you wouldn't be repeating this three times), except that you were talking specifically about me rather than anime fans in general (which is why I ignored it the first time but got offended this time). Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:

"But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences."

Pardon me?:mad: Here is another quote from you:

"And here is another way to undo the geass:
Lelouch captures a bunch of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji massacre site. He takes one and says he is sentenced to die by gunshot for taking part in the massacre, but instead Zero will burn him at the stake unless he helps Zero. This girl CC will give him a geass power, and if that geass power is the power to undo one of Zero's geass commands, the soldier will be shot instead of burned at the stake. CC gives a power to the soldier, they bring in Euphemia, Zero tells the soldier to undo the geass command, and CC checks if the geass is gone from Euphemia. If it is gone, Lelouch shoots the soldier, if not Lelouch ties him to a stake and lights the fire and brings in the next soldier to try again."

Ignoring the fact that that wouldn't even work (Geass powers are based on one's inner most desires, not necessarily what's needed at the time, so Lelouch will end up killing an unknown amount of soldiers before realizing its not working), its apparently bad for me to say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her and that apparently makes me violent (even though we are discussing a cartoon), but its okay to kill a bunch of soldiers on the off chance that it could save one (count them: one) person? And you used that "sin" quote again (in case you didn't notice, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about this). Like I said before, despite what I say about Euphemia, I won't change the fact that she is dead. I did not influence that. Lelouch didn't influence that either (although he did kill her). The creators did that. I could be a "sinner" (I would appreciate you not calling me that again) for losing hope in Euphemia and saying that she is better of dead (I didn't "lose hope", for she WAS ALREADY DEAD; what hope is there to be had?), but having hope in her is not going to change the overall fact that she is dead. You can say that you are a better person for not giving up on her and trying to figure out how to keep her alive, HOWEVER, that does not stop the fact that she died before any of us decided our opinions on this. In fact, we wouldn't be here other wise. I can say that Euphemia had to die until my face turned blue but that does NOT mean that I decided her fate. And it doesn't mean anything. People, not just anime fans, talk about television characters all the time. If one person thinks that a character should die, that's honestly their opinion and you are not automatically a better person because you think the person should live.

Like I said before, Euphemia's personality (or anyone's personality, mind you) is not locked or suppressed while under the influence of the Geass. Just because she is acting nice does not mean that the Geass is wearing of (in fact, it is the sign of absolutely nothing:rolleyes:). She greeted Zero since she knew that he was her half-brother Lelouch and talked about the SAZ, which was the whole point of him being there in the first place (the memories of the SAZ would not be suppressed). Of course, creating the SAZ completely contradicts her current action of killing every Japanese she can find. When Lelouch shot her, she said, "Lelouch, why?" Whether this means she broke the Geass or not is not really clear. Even while under the influence of the Geass, she would be completely confused as to why her beloved half-brother just shot her in the stomach. If the gun shot broke the Geass (since would she physically incapable of carrying out much of anything once being shot, as per the rule), she would be even more confused as to why Lelouch shot her. So, saying "Lelouch, why?" doesn't necessarily mean she came out of the Geass (which is obvious since the Geass came back when she was in the hospital).

Speaking of her being shot, have you ever heard the phrase "Every time you place logic into an anime, God kills a catgirl?" This basically means that certain logical approaches to actions in anime not only do not work, but one is wasting their time trying to figure them out. Most people are aware that it takes only about a second to fall backwards under normal gravity. But there is no point in calculating that in a slow motion scene. The whole POINT of a slow motion scene is to allow more time for an action to take place. They slowed down the scene where Euphemia is shot to allow her to say "Lelouch, why?", knowing that under normal circumstances, she probably wouldn't be able to open her mouth before falling on the ground. Lelouch even said an entire sentence to her while she was falling! So, trying to figure out if she came out of the Geass based on this is pointless.

Now, to the "more pressing" matter: saving Euphemia. Lelouch NEVER intended on saving Euphemia's life in the first place, so there is no real point in offering tips to the contrary. He already threatened to shot her once before, and at the SAZ, he decided to have her shot him, make him look like a martyr, and to hell with the consequences of what happened to Euphemia. That was the original plan. Once she started shooting people, he decided to use the situation to his advantage and exploit Euphemia. He COULD have restrained her (actually, Lelouch has zero muscle power, so who knows if this would work). He COULD have tied her up. He COULD have captured her. He COULD have made her a prisoner. He COULD have saved her life. HOWEVER, that was NEVER part of the plan to begin with. He wanted to exploit Euphemia to the fullest during that situation, which was to blame the massacre on her, kill her (might as well; the Japanese would never except any punishment less than death for Euphemia), make the Japanese riot against Britannia and create an entirely new nation (matching the original plan).

To answer your question (since you danced around it many, many times), no, Euphemia didn't escape the Geass. This comes from both my opinion and your own. I say she not only didn't escape the Geass before she was shot, but she didn't "escape" the Geass until she ultimately died. So my answer is no. Since you have never directly answered your own question, let me give it for you: Euphemia was really, REALLY close to breaking the Geass when Lelouch arrived. By the time he was there, the Geass barely had any control over her. However, "barely" does not mean "none" or "broken". Remember, your question was whether or not she broke the Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her. Apparently, the answer would be: no.

Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.:rolleyes:

The point of the whole "sin" thing is: suppose that in a situation A a person B considers killing a person C. Person b's decision is likely to be influenced by tens of thousands of his experiences and the opinions of other people, most of which will have a tiny but real weight in his decision. Since any situation a person D might discuss would be at least vaguely similar to the situation A in which person B would consider killing person C it is better for person D to be anti-killing than pro-killing in his discussions. And don't say that people are constanlty saying that a particular fictional character or even real person should be killed. I know that and I don't like it.

proEuphie
04-11-2009, 11:29 PM
@proEuphie: I accept your apology from one of your previous posts, but again I do not know what you were trying to say. That whole "sinner" bit has been used by you before (and you used it again). In fact, its practically word for word from the previous time you used it (you are apparently trying to preach something, otherwise you wouldn't be repeating this three times), except that you were talking specifically about me rather than anime fans in general (which is why I ignored it the first time but got offended this time). Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:

"But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences."

Pardon me?:mad: Here is another quote from you:

"And here is another way to undo the geass:
Lelouch captures a bunch of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji massacre site. He takes one and says he is sentenced to die by gunshot for taking part in the massacre, but instead Zero will burn him at the stake unless he helps Zero. This girl CC will give him a geass power, and if that geass power is the power to undo one of Zero's geass commands, the soldier will be shot instead of burned at the stake. CC gives a power to the soldier, they bring in Euphemia, Zero tells the soldier to undo the geass command, and CC checks if the geass is gone from Euphemia. If it is gone, Lelouch shoots the soldier, if not Lelouch ties him to a stake and lights the fire and brings in the next soldier to try again."

Ignoring the fact that that wouldn't even work (Geass powers are based on one's inner most desires, not necessarily what's needed at the time, so Lelouch will end up killing an unknown amount of soldiers before realizing its not working), its apparently bad for me to say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her and that apparently makes me violent (even though we are discussing a cartoon), but its okay to kill a bunch of soldiers on the off chance that it could save one (count them: one) person? And you used that "sin" quote again (in case you didn't notice, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about this). Like I said before, despite what I say about Euphemia, I won't change the fact that she is dead. I did not influence that. Lelouch didn't influence that either (although he did kill her). The creators did that. I could be a "sinner" (I would appreciate you not calling me that again) for losing hope in Euphemia and saying that she is better of dead (I didn't "lose hope", for she WAS ALREADY DEAD; what hope is there to be had?), but having hope in her is not going to change the overall fact that she is dead. You can say that you are a better person for not giving up on her and trying to figure out how to keep her alive, HOWEVER, that does not stop the fact that she died before any of us decided our opinions on this. In fact, we wouldn't be here other wise. I can say that Euphemia had to die until my face turned blue but that does NOT mean that I decided her fate. And it doesn't mean anything. People, not just anime fans, talk about television characters all the time. If one person thinks that a character should die, that's honestly their opinion and you are not automatically a better person because you think the person should live.

Like I said before, Euphemia's personality (or anyone's personality, mind you) is not locked or suppressed while under the influence of the Geass. Just because she is acting nice does not mean that the Geass is wearing of (in fact, it is the sign of absolutely nothing:rolleyes:). She greeted Zero since she knew that he was her half-brother Lelouch and talked about the SAZ, which was the whole point of him being there in the first place (the memories of the SAZ would not be suppressed). Of course, creating the SAZ completely contradicts her current action of killing every Japanese she can find. When Lelouch shot her, she said, "Lelouch, why?" Whether this means she broke the Geass or not is not really clear. Even while under the influence of the Geass, she would be completely confused as to why her beloved half-brother just shot her in the stomach. If the gun shot broke the Geass (since would she physically incapable of carrying out much of anything once being shot, as per the rule), she would be even more confused as to why Lelouch shot her. So, saying "Lelouch, why?" doesn't necessarily mean she came out of the Geass (which is obvious since the Geass came back when she was in the hospital).

Speaking of her being shot, have you ever heard the phrase "Every time you place logic into an anime, God kills a catgirl?" This basically means that certain logical approaches to actions in anime not only do not work, but one is wasting their time trying to figure them out. Most people are aware that it takes only about a second to fall backwards under normal gravity. But there is no point in calculating that in a slow motion scene. The whole POINT of a slow motion scene is to allow more time for an action to take place. They slowed down the scene where Euphemia is shot to allow her to say "Lelouch, why?", knowing that under normal circumstances, she probably wouldn't be able to open her mouth before falling on the ground. Lelouch even said an entire sentence to her while she was falling! So, trying to figure out if she came out of the Geass based on this is pointless.

Now, to the "more pressing" matter: saving Euphemia. Lelouch NEVER intended on saving Euphemia's life in the first place, so there is no real point in offering tips to the contrary. He already threatened to shot her once before, and at the SAZ, he decided to have her shot him, make him look like a martyr, and to hell with the consequences of what happened to Euphemia. That was the original plan. Once she started shooting people, he decided to use the situation to his advantage and exploit Euphemia. He COULD have restrained her (actually, Lelouch has zero muscle power, so who knows if this would work). He COULD have tied her up. He COULD have captured her. He COULD have made her a prisoner. He COULD have saved her life. HOWEVER, that was NEVER part of the plan to begin with. He wanted to exploit Euphemia to the fullest during that situation, which was to blame the massacre on her, kill her (might as well; the Japanese would never except any punishment less than death for Euphemia), make the Japanese riot against Britannia and create an entirely new nation (matching the original plan).

To answer your question (since you danced around it many, many times), no, Euphemia didn't escape the Geass. This comes from both my opinion and your own. I say she not only didn't escape the Geass before she was shot, but she didn't "escape" the Geass until she ultimately died. So my answer is no. Since you have never directly answered your own question, let me give it for you: Euphemia was really, REALLY close to breaking the Geass when Lelouch arrived. By the time he was there, the Geass barely had any control over her. However, "barely" does not mean "none" or "broken". Remember, your question was whether or not she broke the Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her. Apparently, the answer would be: no.

Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.:rolleyes:

Perhaps my proposed method of curing Euphemia would not work. Perhaps if Lelouch used his geass on the victims he could change their desires, perhaps not. By the way, what is your source for your statement that a person's geass is chosen by his innermost, strongest desires? Did CC or VV say that in an episode?
But why do you worry about Lelouch going though a lot of soldiers trying to cure one person, Euphemia? The life of any soldier, warrior, guerrilla, or terrorist who takes part in a massacre is absolutely worthless. Killing trillions or quadrillions of them would not be as bad as killing one good person, because the lives of even an infinite number of massacre participants have zero or even negative worth. None of the Britannian soldiers or Black Knights who took part in massacres could claim that he was forced to do so as much as Euphemia was forced to do so.

Why do you say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her? I keep saying that if she was properly restrained, and/or confined, and/or sedated she would be no danger to anyone. An organization plotting to liberate an entire country should be prepared to capture a lot of prisoners unless they are planning to massacre all their enemies, which would make them an evil organization.
Lelouch could give non Japanese newsmen captured in the stadium a geass to obey his commands, with the first being to guard Euphemia (locked up in a room of the G1 vehicle?). When they captured Tokyo the next day one of Lelouch's underlings could release the political prisoners from a jail and Euphemia could be locked up there with no chance of escaping to kill people. If Lelouch geassed some of the Britannian guards to obey all his orders they could alternately guard Euphemia and spy on Britannians and be a net manpower gain to the Black Knights.

You say the Euphemia's confusion about being shot by Lelouch doesn't indicate whether she was controlled by the geass at that point. If she was totally controlled by the geass she would remember ordering the massacre as well as the fact that Lelouch was the protector and defender of the Japanese and might put two and two together to deduce he might attack her, but apparently she didn't try anything to prevent such a possibility.
Anyway, since Euphemia seemed to have totally trusted Lelouch and he was confident she would not attack him, and since he should have known that keeping her prisoner would be no problem, killing her was an utterly treacherous murder.

About the slow motion scene. I suppose you believe that Euphemia actually said "Why Lelouch?" after she hit the ground. I suppose I could time how long her words were after she was shot to see how fast she would have to realize Lelouch shot her.

You say that Lelouch never planned on saving Euphemia's life when he came to the meeting. Forget that she was his half sister, the important thing was that he knew she was a good person. So why should he endanger her life to foil her plans when he could have had someone else ruin the SAZ plan? With Lelouch's powers no one was safe from being geassed by him in the days before the SAZ opening. General Darlton or even Cornelia could have been made to arrest Euphemia in the name of the Emperor and the black Knights could "rescue" her, which might lead to her joining Lelouch in the rebellion, or Euphemia could simply resign on the grounds that she was too young for such a dangerous and difficult job.

And Lelouch did decide to give up that plan and make peace with Euphemia.
Wasn't he honor-bound to salvage as much as he could from the peace agreement after he accidentally gave Euphemia the massacre geass? Wasn't he honor-bound to tell the Black Knights that Euphemia was insane and should be captured and the Japanese saved from the soldiers who obeyed her senseless order? They should have protected the Japanese and then withdrawn. The SAZ plan would be dead and the Japanese would have no hope except Zero, and Lelouch would have more time to gather strength and perfect his plans until he was ready to strike.

What you seem to be saying about Lelouch, although you dance around it many times, is that he was evil. If so, we are in agreement.

And as Fouche would have said, killing Euphemia was "worse than a crime, it was a blunder". Although I think crimes are worse than blunders.

In episode 24, I think, Lelouch gloats about the Emperor having to come to meet Zero face to face (and thus be geassed) once they establish an independent Japan. There have not been a lot of cases where one country gained it's independence by violent revolution against another, and even fewer where the head of state of the former master country immediately came to meet with the rebel leader.
The Emperor, an absolute monarch, would not have to behave in such an unusual way. A living Euphemia would raise the probability that he would greatly. Lelouch knows that the Emperor knows that his daughter Euphemia is one of the kindest and gentlest people in the world and would likely suspect that the footage of her ordering the massacre must be faked. The Emperor would know that any person capable of killing so good a girl as Euphemia would not hesitate to kill so evil a man as himself, so why should Lelouch expect the Emperor to come unless Euphemia was alive?

Some people claim that Lelouch needed to pose as a brave Euphy-slaying hero to gain the leadership of the rebellion against Britannia. Otherwise the rebellion would collapse in a few days due to leadership less competent than Lelouch's. But Lelouch could simply geass the Kyoto group to obey his orders while posing as the leaders of the rebellion. After victory the Kyoto group, and not Zero who had killed Clovis, could invite the Emperor to a meeting.
The broadcast of the meeting would be interrupted just before Zero and the Black Knights entered and Lelouch geassed the Emperor.
The Emperor and his people and the Kyoto group and their people (except for cute little Kaguya, I hope, even though she is the evilest fourteen-year-old on tv) would be dead when the transmission resumed. Zero would explain what happened, perhaps showing previously prepared fake footage, and become the official leader of the new Japan. Or pehaps the wounded members of the Kyoto group would gratefully resign their leadership to Zero who had saved them from the Emperor's treacherous attack.

And if Lelouch was going to lie about Euphemia's evil he might as well lie about killing her to gain the leadership. He could tell the Japanese who wanted to take out their anger on her corpse that she was so evil that her corpse turned to ashes and blew away when he killed her, and use her as a hostage with Cornelia. If Britannian later claimed that Euphemia was alive Zero could say he didn't know which Euphemia was the real princess, he just knew that the one he killed was the one who ordered the attack and was so evil (probably being a demon) that her corpse burned up and blew away when she was killed.

Or he could have openly used Euphemia as a hostage, her value being increased by the Japanese threats to torture her to death in the background as he was on the phone negotiating with Cornelia. If he explained to Cornelia that 1) Euphemia had an insane desire to kill Japanese and 2) the Japanese all hated Euphie and wanted to torture her to death, he could have persuaded Cornelia to keep Euphemia confined in Britannia for her own good. Cornelia would be far too protective of Euphemia to let her have the slightest chance of attacking and being attacked by Japanese. Lelouch once said that Euphemia was Cornelia's only weakness, but he threw away that weakness, and the lives of hundreds or thousands of his followers, when he kiled Euphemia.
In the Texas War of independence the Mexican army was routed at San Jacento. The Texans remembered the Alamo and slaughtered most of the Mexicans despite their pleas of "Me no Alamo! Me no Goliad!" But Sam Houston managed to have Santa Anna captured and protected from the angry Texans. Santa Anna signed a treaty recognizing Texan independence and was released, despite the danger that he might return to slaughter more texans. Though the treaty was repudiated, neither Santa Anna nor any other Mexican presidente was able to arrange an invasion of Texas before Texas was annexed to the US.

If Lelouch, with his power to use geass on anyone who opposed him, was as strong a leader as Sam Houston he could have used Euphie as a hostage to force Suszaku and/or the Lancelot to surrender.

Or he could have forced Cornelia to declare the Tokyo settlment an open city and fight the rebels in the open countryside. In episode 24, I think, Lelouch's Gawain nightmare shot down tens or hundreds of Brtitannian aircraft over Tokyo. Who knowns how many Britannian and/or Japanese civilians were killed by falling wreckage? And how many were killed by stray shells and bombs? Tens? Hundreds? Thousands? Deaths which could have been avoided if Lelouch used Euphie to force Cornelia to fight away from civilians.

Or possibly Lelouch could have forced Cornelia to surrender Japan to the rebels without a fight.

These were the kind of things that Lelouch should have been thinking about when planning to make Euphie shoot him at the meeting. He should have realized how valuable a hostage she would make. Lelouch would have expected that Euphemia would either escape the fighting at the stadium, be killed, or be captured. Lelouch could have planned that if she was captured he would magnamonously forgive her for shooting him, or use her as a hostage, or kill her. He had days to figure out what he wanted to do with her if she was captured and to realize what a great hostage she would make.

If Lelouch was planning to use her as a hostage, then when he gave her the geass command to kill the Japanese he would have thought about adapting those plans to the circumstances. He might have decided she would still make a good hostage and that it would be safe to release her in return for the independence of Japan - since Cornelia would want to keep Euphie away from the Japanese - just as Sam Houston figured it was safe to release Santa Anna despite all the Texans he had massacred and the chance he might return to kill some more.

You say the Japanese would never let Euphemia live. That is like saying the Texans would never let Santa Anna live, let alone go free. Do you have any examples of Japanese vengefullness in similar circumstances? Are you going to tell me that when General Curtis "Demon" Lemay was sentenced to only ten years imprisonment for war crimes against the Japanese there were mass demonstrations by angry Japense demanding he be executed? Of course not, since Lemay was never tried for his war crimes and even became a vice presidential candidate without any great protest from the Japanese.

If Lelouch decided that Euphemia would be too dangerous as a hostage while under the control of the geass, he might have asked Cc if there was qny way to undo the geass command and she might haave told him that VV could do it and VV was close to the Emperor. That wuld certainly be convenient for demanding that Euphemia be cured after or even before she was released. Lelouch might even think of holding Euphemia and VV after VV cured Euphemia.

blackrosetwilight
04-12-2009, 09:05 AM
And the cycle of conlicts continues... please stay tune for our next exciting post from our two contenders proEuphie and wolfgirl90.(roll the credits)

wolfgirl90
04-12-2009, 02:25 PM
And the cycle of conlicts continues... please stay tune for our next exciting post from our two contenders proEuphie and wolfgirl90.(roll the credits)

I have popcorn, although I heard the book was better.:p

Anyway, you seem to be missing my point about the whole "capture Euphemia" thing, proEuphie. While there may have been a chance that Euphemia could have been sedated, restrained and captured, those types of options are not available while there is somebody running around killing people. The threat needs to be taken care of as quickly as possible with as few people dying as possible. While killing someone is not the best thing to happen in a situation like this, if it has to happen, it will. If Euphemia was real and she was running around killing people, sorry, but I would most likely kill her in a situation like this, unless someone was able to quickly give me a way to neutralize her. In case you haven't figured it out, I'm in the military. Its part of my job to figure out how to neutralize threats.

However, this point is moot since Lelouch never planned on saving Euphemia in the first place. He never really cared what happened to her, so there is absolutely no point in saying he could have saved her, he could kept her prisoner, or he could have used her as a hostage. There is no point to this so long as he did not really care about her overall well being. Sure, he knew that Euphemia was a good person, but he also knew that Euphemia was an extremely naive person whose actions went against what he wanted and what he was working toward and thus had to be eliminated. He was going to work with her at one point, but that plan changed when she stared killing people.

Now, you have offered a lot of different scenarios of what Lelouch could do with Euphemia as a hostage. However, most of these arguments can be defeated by one simple fact: Emperor Charles does not care about his children. At all. He was happy that Clovis, his own son, had died since that meant that there was one less weak person alive in the world. Lelouch cannot use Euphemia as a hostage against Cornelia. She can stop the soldiers from attacking but that's about it (and she doesn't need Euphemia to do that).

Lelouch cannot make Cornelia give up Japan in exchange for Euphemia. Cornelia is a Viseroy, a person sent to govern a country or province in the name of a monarch. While she controls Japan, she does not OWN Japan and cannot gave the country away to anyone. She and Euphemia can change boundaries and use the land for what they want (such as Euphemia's SAZ) but they can't simply give the land away. Cornelia is there to govern in place of Charles, the person who DOES own Japan. Cornelia could try to give it away, but Charles would just take it away again. She could declare Tokyo a free city but Charles (onto Lelouch's plan at this point) could easily override anything that Cornelia does. Charles could have stopped the SAZ if he wanted to but, with Euphemia being politically naive (and eventually going around killing people), there was really no point in doing so. Lelouch could appeal to him, but like I said before, Charles barely cares about any of his children. Euphemia no longer holds claim to the throne and gave away her name. Charles may even call her weak for being controlled like that. Because of this, Lelouch can't "demand" that Charles do anything. V.V could cancel the Geass on Euphemia but that would involve him actually caring about doing it and/or Lelouch forcing him to (and I would love to see how you would convince an immortal to do anything).

While I understand your "sin" reference, again, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about the opinions about the life of a cartoon character. Like I said, I had no involvement in the decision that Euphemia should die. The creators of the show decided that. They decided that this innocent, naive, peace-loving girl be shot in the stomach. I had no part in it. Now, in a situational standpoint, yes, she should have died, but my opinion doesn't matter. My opinion is not going to influence her death as Euphemia was already dead when I said it. You can give all these different ways and opinions about Euphemia being alive but it doesn't matter. She is going to be dead (and remain dead) no matter what you say, what I say or what anyone else says. And like I pointed out, you are not innocent when it comes to suggesting violence (far from it actually). Here's a quote from "Who do you want to die?", an AF thread about which InuYasha characters people wanted to die:

"Naraku! Of course. He should be burned at the stake, pulled apart by wild horses, sliced into a thousand pieces, cushed under a thound ton of rocke, etc. etc."

You have said that the lives of the soldiers that took place in that murder mean absolutely nothing and that killing millions upon millions of them is much better than the killing of one "good" person. Pardon me, but who do you think you are? Are you some mystical being that sits on high who can decide whos lives are worth more than others? While people who take place in massacres are terrible people, I can not say that there lives are "worthless" nor am I in any position to make that decision. Neither are you. Euphemia is not that good a person such that millions deserve to die for her sake (like I pointed out last time, she is a virtual carbon copy Lacus Clyne from Gundam SEED; Euphemia is nothing special as far as cartoon characters go). If you wonder why I worry about their lives, then you have some serious issues that you need to work out.

You think I am a bad person for thinking Euphemia should die? That apparently I am pro-violence based upon events in my life (I do do not know where you get off saying this)? Well, you are not so innocent yourself, since you believe that millions of lives should be sacrificed for the sake of one person (who just killed a bunch of people herself). You can call me a sinner all you want to but in doing so, you make yourself look quite arrogant and ignorant (like all the other people who decided to call me that).

And I believe I am done here. I have answered your question. You have repeatedly answered your OWN question. And have decided that any and all people who decide that a fictional character should die (namely Euphemia) is a sinner, regardless of the fact that many people do this all the time and that you are not innocent of this "sin".

proEuphie
04-12-2009, 09:07 PM
I have popcorn, although I heard the book was better.:p

Anyway, you seem to be missing my point about the whole "capture Euphemia" thing, proEuphie. While there may have been a chance that Euphemia could have been sedated, restrained and captured, those types of options are not available while there is somebody running around killing people. The threat needs to be taken care of as quickly as possible with as few people dying as possible. While killing someone is not the best thing to happen in a situation like this, if it has to happen, it will. If Euphemia was real and she was running around killing people, sorry, but I would most likely kill her in a situation like this, unless someone was able to quickly give me a way to neutralize her. In case you haven't figured it out, I'm in the military. Its part of my job to figure out how to neutralize threats.

However, this point is moot since Lelouch never planned on saving Euphemia in the first place. He never really cared what happened to her, so there is absolutely no point in saying he could have saved her, he could kept her prisoner, or he could have used her as a hostage. There is no point to this so long as he did not really care about her overall well being. Sure, he knew that Euphemia was a good person, but he also knew that Euphemia was an extremely naive person whose actions went against what he wanted and what he was working toward and thus had to be eliminated. He was going to work with her at one point, but that plan changed when she stared killing people.

Now, you have offered a lot of different scenarios of what Lelouch could do with Euphemia as a hostage. However, most of these arguments can be defeated by one simple fact: Emperor Charles does not care about his children. At all. He was happy that Clovis, his own son, had died since that meant that there was one less weak person alive in the world. Lelouch cannot use Euphemia as a hostage against Cornelia. She can stop the soldiers from attacking but that's about it (and she doesn't need Euphemia to do that).

Lelouch cannot make Cornelia give up Japan in exchange for Euphemia. Cornelia is a Viseroy, a person sent to govern a country or province in the name of a monarch. While she controls Japan, she does not OWN Japan and cannot gave the country away to anyone. She and Euphemia can change boundaries and use the land for what they want (such as Euphemia's SAZ) but they can't simply give the land away. Cornelia is there to govern in place of Charles, the person who DOES own Japan. Cornelia could try to give it away, but Charles would just take it away again. She could declare Tokyo a free city but Charles (onto Lelouch's plan at this point) could easily override anything that Cornelia does. Charles could have stopped the SAZ if he wanted to but, with Euphemia being politically naive (and eventually going around killing people), there was really no point in doing so. Lelouch could appeal to him, but like I said before, Charles barely cares about any of his children. Euphemia no longer holds claim to the throne and gave away her name. Charles may even call her weak for being controlled like that. Because of this, Lelouch can't "demand" that Charles do anything. V.V could cancel the Geass on Euphemia but that would involve him actually caring about doing it and/or Lelouch forcing him to (and I would love to see how you would convince an immortal to do anything).

While I understand your "sin" reference, again, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about the opinions about the life of a cartoon character. Like I said, I had no involvement in the decision that Euphemia should die. The creators of the show decided that. They decided that this innocent, naive, peace-loving girl be shot in the stomach. I had no part in it. Now, in a situational standpoint, yes, she should have died, but my opinion doesn't matter. My opinion is not going to influence her death as Euphemia was already dead when I said it. You can give all these different ways and opinions about Euphemia being alive but it doesn't matter. She is going to be dead (and remain dead) no matter what you say, what I say or what anyone else says. And like I pointed out, you are not innocent when it comes to suggesting violence (far from it actually). Here's a quote from "Who do you want to die?", an AF thread about which InuYasha characters people wanted to die:

"Naraku! Of course. He should be burned at the stake, pulled apart by wild horses, sliced into a thousand pieces, cushed under a thound ton of rocke, etc. etc."

You have said that the lives of the soldiers that took place in that murder mean absolutely nothing and that killing millions upon millions of them is much better than the killing of one "good" person. Pardon me, but who do you think you are? Are you some mystical being that sits on high who can decide whos lives are worth more than others? While people who take place in massacres are terrible people, I can not say that there lives are "worthless" nor am I in any position to make that decision. Neither are you. Euphemia is not that good a person such that millions deserve to die for her sake (like I pointed out last time, she is a virtual carbon copy Lacus Clyne from Gundam SEED; Euphemia is nothing special as far as cartoon characters go). If you wonder why I worry about their lives, then you have some serious issues that you need to work out.

You think I am a bad person for thinking Euphemia should die? That apparently I am pro-violence based upon events in my life (I do do not know where you get off saying this)? Well, you are not so innocent yourself, since you believe that millions of lives should be sacrificed for the sake of one person (who just killed a bunch of people herself). You can call me a sinner all you want to but in doing so, you make yourself look quite arrogant and ignorant (like all the other people who decided to call me that).

And I believe I am done here. I have answered your question. You have repeatedly answered your OWN question. And have decided that any and all people who decide that a fictional character should die (namely Euphemia) is a sinner, regardless of the fact that many people do this all the time and that you are not innocent of this "sin".

You kind of jumped the gun in responding to my post # 12. It is not finished. Around 1230 this morning I gave up and went to bed. I will have to finish it before I respond to your response to it. [/quote]

blackrosetwilight
04-12-2009, 09:56 PM
Todays post ends peacefully... next time a flash back post reply episode!!!!!!!!!!!!(I really have too much time on my hand)

Funkgun
04-13-2009, 01:58 AM
Todays post ends peacefully... next time a flash back post reply episode!!!!!!!!!!!!(I really have too much time on my hand)
lol. ...So are the Days of our Posts.

Clawdia
04-13-2009, 02:04 AM
...Code Geass fans are scary. ;__;

Rivette
04-13-2009, 08:49 AM
...Code Geass fans are scary. ;__;

Indeed we are.

blackrosetwilight
04-13-2009, 09:09 AM
...Code Geass fans are scary. ;__;
Be afraid, the thousand fans of Geass descends upon you, our post will block out the sun!!!!!.

wolfgirl90
04-13-2009, 12:11 PM
Be afraid, the thousand fans of Geass descends upon you, our post will block out the sun!!!!!.

This is madness!

Madness...THIS IS BRITANNIA!!!:p

zerog
04-13-2009, 01:18 PM
my god these are the longest words I've ever seen in posts...
@_@
well I believe she was still under control of the geass until the part where she got shot then she came back to normal when she actually died.

Funkgun
04-13-2009, 11:58 PM
Be afraid, the thousand fans of Geass descends upon you, our post will block out the sun!!!!!.

...Then we'll post in the shade.

proEuphie
04-15-2009, 10:09 PM
@proEuphie: I accept your apology from one of your previous posts, but again I do not know what you were trying to say. That whole "sinner" bit has been used by you before (and you used it again). In fact, its practically word for word from the previous time you used it (you are apparently trying to preach something, otherwise you wouldn't be repeating this three times), except that you were talking specifically about me rather than anime fans in general (which is why I ignored it the first time but got offended this time). Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:

"But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences."

Pardon me?:mad: Here is another quote from you:

"And here is another way to undo the geass:
Lelouch captures a bunch of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji massacre site. He takes one and says he is sentenced to die by gunshot for taking part in the massacre, but instead Zero will burn him at the stake unless he helps Zero. This girl CC will give him a geass power, and if that geass power is the power to undo one of Zero's geass commands, the soldier will be shot instead of burned at the stake. CC gives a power to the soldier, they bring in Euphemia, Zero tells the soldier to undo the geass command, and CC checks if the geass is gone from Euphemia. If it is gone, Lelouch shoots the soldier, if not Lelouch ties him to a stake and lights the fire and brings in the next soldier to try again."

Ignoring the fact that that wouldn't even work (Geass powers are based on one's inner most desires, not necessarily what's needed at the time, so Lelouch will end up killing an unknown amount of soldiers before realizing its not working), its apparently bad for me to say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her and that apparently makes me violent (even though we are discussing a cartoon), but its okay to kill a bunch of soldiers on the off chance that it could save one (count them: one) person? And you used that "sin" quote again (in case you didn't notice, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about this). Like I said before, despite what I say about Euphemia, I won't change the fact that she is dead. I did not influence that. Lelouch didn't influence that either (although he did kill her). The creators did that. I could be a "sinner" (I would appreciate you not calling me that again) for losing hope in Euphemia and saying that she is better of dead (I didn't "lose hope", for she WAS ALREADY DEAD; what hope is there to be had?), but having hope in her is not going to change the overall fact that she is dead. You can say that you are a better person for not giving up on her and trying to figure out how to keep her alive, HOWEVER, that does not stop the fact that she died before any of us decided our opinions on this. In fact, we wouldn't be here other wise. I can say that Euphemia had to die until my face turned blue but that does NOT mean that I decided her fate. And it doesn't mean anything. People, not just anime fans, talk about television characters all the time. If one person thinks that a character should die, that's honestly their opinion and you are not automatically a better person because you think the person should live.

Like I said before, Euphemia's personality (or anyone's personality, mind you) is not locked or suppressed while under the influence of the Geass. Just because she is acting nice does not mean that the Geass is wearing of (in fact, it is the sign of absolutely nothing:rolleyes:). She greeted Zero since she knew that he was her half-brother Lelouch and talked about the SAZ, which was the whole point of him being there in the first place (the memories of the SAZ would not be suppressed). Of course, creating the SAZ completely contradicts her current action of killing every Japanese she can find. When Lelouch shot her, she said, "Lelouch, why?" Whether this means she broke the Geass or not is not really clear. Even while under the influence of the Geass, she would be completely confused as to why her beloved half-brother just shot her in the stomach. If the gun shot broke the Geass (since would she physically incapable of carrying out much of anything once being shot, as per the rule), she would be even more confused as to why Lelouch shot her. So, saying "Lelouch, why?" doesn't necessarily mean she came out of the Geass (which is obvious since the Geass came back when she was in the hospital).

Speaking of her being shot, have you ever heard the phrase "Every time you place logic into an anime, God kills a catgirl?" This basically means that certain logical approaches to actions in anime not only do not work, but one is wasting their time trying to figure them out. Most people are aware that it takes only about a second to fall backwards under normal gravity. But there is no point in calculating that in a slow motion scene. The whole POINT of a slow motion scene is to allow more time for an action to take place. They slowed down the scene where Euphemia is shot to allow her to say "Lelouch, why?", knowing that under normal circumstances, she probably wouldn't be able to open her mouth before falling on the ground. Lelouch even said an entire sentence to her while she was falling! So, trying to figure out if she came out of the Geass based on this is pointless.

Now, to the "more pressing" matter: saving Euphemia. Lelouch NEVER intended on saving Euphemia's life in the first place, so there is no real point in offering tips to the contrary. He already threatened to shot her once before, and at the SAZ, he decided to have her shot him, make him look like a martyr, and to hell with the consequences of what happened to Euphemia. That was the original plan. Once she started shooting people, he decided to use the situation to his advantage and exploit Euphemia. He COULD have restrained her (actually, Lelouch has zero muscle power, so who knows if this would work). He COULD have tied her up. He COULD have captured her. He COULD have made her a prisoner. He COULD have saved her life. HOWEVER, that was NEVER part of the plan to begin with. He wanted to exploit Euphemia to the fullest during that situation, which was to blame the massacre on her, kill her (might as well; the Japanese would never except any punishment less than death for Euphemia), make the Japanese riot against Britannia and create an entirely new nation (matching the original plan).

To answer your question (since you danced around it many, many times), no, Euphemia didn't escape the Geass. This comes from both my opinion and your own. I say she not only didn't escape the Geass before she was shot, but she didn't "escape" the Geass until she ultimately died. So my answer is no. Since you have never directly answered your own question, let me give it for you: Euphemia was really, REALLY close to breaking the Geass when Lelouch arrived. By the time he was there, the Geass barely had any control over her. However, "barely" does not mean "none" or "broken". Remember, your question was whether or not she broke the Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her. Apparently, the answer would be: no.

Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.:rolleyes:

Part two of my reply. 04/15/09. I believe that in Lelouch's original plan for the opening of the SAZ Euphemia would either escape, be killed in the fighting, or be captured. I don't know the probablilities of those three outcomes. What was Lelouch planning to to with Euphemia if she was captured? I believe that there were three possibilities, make a big show of graciously pardoning her, use her as a hostage, or kill her, and I just thought of a fourth -- lock her up for possibly the rest of her life.

Or pardoning her and locking her up could be considered two different extremes of the same policy, which could be called keeping her alive but not using her as a hostage.

Lelouch might pardon her for shooting him (under his geass command) and let her go. Or he might pardon her and keep her with him as a guest, perhaps hoping to turn her into a supporter of the Black Knights or a go-between in negotiations.

Or he might keep her locked up forever as a prisoner to punish her for trying to interfere with his revolution and for being the daughter of her father. Perhaps he would visit her from time to time to gloat about her failure and his success.

If Lelouch estimated that there was a 95 percent chance that Euphemia would be killed, a three percent chance that she would escape, and a two percent chance that she would be captured; or perhaps a 98 percent chance that she would escape, a one percent chance she would be killed, and a one percent chance that she would be captured, he might not spend much thought on what to do with, for, or to Euphemia in the unlikely chance that she was captured.

But if Lelouch estimated that here was a ten percent chance that Euphemia would be killed, a fifteen percent chance that she would escape, and a seventy five percent chance that she would be captured, then he would consider what he personally wanted to do with, for, or to Euphemia if she was captured , and which course of action would be best for his revolution.

Lelouch might reasonably believe that it would be best for his revolution if Euphemia escaped from the fighting at the Fuji stadium. I believe the point of the Zero Requiem was to gather all the hate in the world on one person, so the hate would die when he died. So if Euphemia was killed at the stadium the hatred against her personally would vanish leaving only hatred against Britannia in general to fuel his revolution.

It would be much better for keeping the Japanese motivated if Euphemia escaped to the Tokyo settlement and was not killed or captured until the vengeful rebels captured Tokyo. So Lelouch might decide that if Euphemia was captured at Fuji to take her as a prisoner to Tokyo and then have her killed or imprisoned or pardoned as part of the victory ceremony.

And so Lelouch might decide that when he gave Euphemia a geass order to shoot him he would also command her that if she was captured by the rebels she would not do anything to make them them pity her but would keep their hatred for her alive, probably by defiantly insulting them. This would make them want her dead even more, and would make a bigger impression at the victory ceremony when Lelouch had her killed or graciously pardoned her and set her free or reduced her punishment to imprisonment.

This is what Lelouch might have though about if he believed there would be a large probability that Euphemia would be captured at Fuji. (to be continued) [/quote]

04/16/09
If Lelouch thought about the conservation of hatred when planning his revolution he might have worried about wasting the hatred of Euphemia when she was killed. So he might have planned to save the hatred and direct it against Cornelia and the Emperor after Euphemia was killed or before she was killed (and thus possibly preventing her death).

So he might have planned to claim that his spies reported that Cornelia had been putting heavy pressure on Euphemia to follow some plan of the Emperor's recently and that plan was probably a plan to assassinate him at the SAZ opening. Or he might have planned to claim that Euphemia had acted very erratically at their private meeting and might be insane. And suggest that being the daughter of Emperor Charles had driven her insane. I guess that if Euphemia was alive to hear those words she would have been grateful for them even if they were lies.

If Lelouch had any plans to directed the hatred of Euphemia against Cornelia and/or the Emperor he might have remembered them after he gave he the geass command to kill the Japanese. He might have told the Black Knights that Euphemia had seemed to be taken over by some kind of mind control (which after all was the truth) and that her order to massacre the Japanese must be the work of some Britannian or Japanese opponent of the SAZ plan who made her ruin it (also true). Thus he could conserve the hatred of her and direct it against his main enemies, and possibly save the life of his childhood playmate Euphemia who he had just made peace with after hating her for years.

But he didn't do that so he probably didn't have any such plans.

The curious thing about Lelouch's plan for disrupting the SAZ is that a lot of things would have happened that he couldn't control. The last time I saw episode 22 Lelouch certainly said that he would seem like a messiah to the Japanese after recovering from his wound, so apparently Lelouch was definitely planning to be wounded by Euphemia, if not as badly as it may have looked.

So Lelouch would have unconscious or faking it for minutes or hours while critical parts of his plan were happening, and the only person who would have known any of Lelouch's secret intentions was CC. That is an unusual plan for such a control freak as Lelouch. And there would be a good chance that Euphemia would escape or be killed while Lelouch was out of the picture, so perhaps Lelouch never bothered to think about what he would do with, for, or to Euphemia if he recovered to find out that she was a prisoner.

Lelouch was planning on overthrowing the Britannians in Japan at least as early as episode 21, where his coup plans were mentioned. I don't know how he planned that his coup would begin. To me the best kind of coup would be if everyone went to bed one night and the next morning they woke up to find Black Knight patrols marching down the streets and the news reported that all the Brittannian soldiers in the Tokyo garrison had been killed or captured so fast that the citizens heard and suspect nothing. Certainly the Japanese were so discontented that they wouldn't have complained that the black Knights acted without any particular recent provocation from the Britannians.

But Lelouch, with his flare for the dramatic, probably intended that his revolution would be sparked by some violent incident, and so when Euphemia announced her plan for the Special Administrative Zone Lelouch probably quickly modified his plans so that a violent incident at the opening of the SAZ would spark the revolution. Lelouch/Zero could have simply met with Euphemia at the opening and said that the SAZ looked promising and that the Black knights would cut down on their activity for a while to see how well it worked out. And they would stop all public activity while l preparing for a coup that (Lelouch thought) could not possibly fail and would start the coup without warning when they were fully ready.

A lot of people, especially Euphemia, would be disappointed in Zero for lying, but success would be its own justification. And although the SAZ plan might reduce Japanese support for the Black Knights, there would be millions of discontented Japanese willing to continue and increase their support of the Black Knights, at least until the sAZ started to work well and was also enlarged to include their part of Japan - and neither of those events was guaranteed to happen.

So Lelouch's coup did not really need to have the opening of the SAZ disrupted dramatically, let alone in the particular way that Lelouch was planning to disrupt it. The plan Lelouch chose was merely one of many, many options, including doing nothing at the opening but continuing to prepare for the coup and striking when everything was ready.

The soldiers at the stadium who would be killed if Lelouch's plan went off as planned would probably be from the garrisons of Tokyo and nearby regions, and so would have been in danger of being killed in the coup anyway, if it started at some other time.

But the crowd of Japanese in the stadium may have come from every corner of Japan, from Kyushu to Hokkaido, including many regions were there would be little fighting and little danger for them in the coup. So having the coup start with a violent riot while they were in the stadium was putting their lives in danger.

Lelouch was not planning on having the crowd boo and throw rotten tomatoes at Euphemia after she shot him. He was planning for a revolution to break out and for the Black Knights to win a victory at the stadium and lead a massive revolt which would capture Tokyo and proclaim an independent Japan. And Lelouch expected it to happen while he was unconscious for at least a few critical minutes.

Clearly he expected crowds of Japanese to rush toward the stage where Euphemia had just shot him and toward other groups of Britannians throughout the stadium. And the normal procedure for the Britannians would be to shoot down the onrushing mobs. It would have been a bloodbath The angry Japanese would have been slaughtered until the Black Knights arrived and started to slaughter the Britannains. (to be continued) [/quote]

04/18/09 Of course Lelouch might believe the Japanese crowd would be so numerous they would simply overrun the Britannians. But he probably didn't since in the actual fighting following the massacre order the Britannians drove the surviving Japanese from the stadium and chased them though the streets. So Lelouch would expect the Japanese to be slaughtered until the Black Knights arrived, and then maybe the Black Knights would have been slaughtered. The Black Knights might have found the Britannains massed in the stadium and ready to repulse any attack and Britannian reinforcements would be coming.

Did Lelouch plan to give Euphemia an order to pursue the Japanese through the streets after their attack on the Britannians was defeated? That would disperse the Brittannians much as they were dispersed following Euphemia's massacre order, and make them a lot easier for the Black knights to defeat in detail. And of course the Japanese casualties would have been similar to those suffered in the Fuji Massacre.

That is only speculation.

But Lelouch clearly believed that most Japanese already loved and trusted and admired Zero so much that they would go berserk if they saw him treacherously shot and would throw away their lives in a frenzied effort to avenge him. And how did he return that love and adoration? By planning to trick the Japanese in the stadium, who hoped to gain most of the rights they desired through peaceful means, into starting a revolution. And getting thousands of them killed. And by tricking all the millions of Japanese to support the revolution and join it, with thousands more being killed all over Japan as a result of his lies.

And Lelouch clearly saw how much Euphemia still loved him and Nunnally. In "Island of the Gods" she was clearly overjoyed to confirm her suspicion that Zero Was Lelouch and to learn that Nunnally was still alive. And she never once, on the air, complained to him about killing her brother Clovis or pointing a gun at her (and probably seriously considering whether to kill her) but just enjoyed being with him again. And she kept his true identity and later his address secret. With enemies like Euphemia, who needs friends?

Lelouch did not respond in kind to Euphemia's love. He didn't have to, but the least he could have done was move her from his "kill" list to his "don't kill" list. But he planned to violate her trust and use her to start his revolution and probably be killed.

So Lelouch was planning, possibly with CC, the person he would most likely trust with his deepest secrets, to start a bloodbath in which thousands of Japanese who trusted Zero would be tricked into dying, and in which someone who really loved and trusted Lelouch would probably be killed.

That is planning mass murder of thousands of Japanese and Britannians who would be killed and seriously endangering the life of trusting Euphemia.

Lelouch came to the opening of the SAZ planning to murder thousands of people to achieve his goals and attempt the murder of Euphemia. And just what goal were they going to be sacrificed for? To sabotage the SAZ and start Lelouch's revolution in a very dramatic way, though quite possibly not the most effective way.

But in Lelouch's conversation with Euphemia she convinced him to make peace with her, and they were a brother and sister again. And then Euphemia asked if Lelouch really could have made her shoot him and he said that he could make her do anything, even kill the Japanese. And since his geass had just come on full time his words became a command to kill the Japanese.

So the writers used the accidental geass command to try to erase Lelouch's guilt and give him his revolution when he no longer wanted it. But that does not work.

If a man climbs up a mountain to start a landslide which will destroy his hated neighbor's house but the landslide goes in the wrong direction and wipes out his own house with his beloved wife and children inside he is guilty of murdering them. Because their unintended deaths were the result of his crime of attempted murder of his neighbor (and the neighbor's family?).

If a wife tries to shoot her husband for cheating on her but the bullet misses and kills an innocent bystander she is guilty of murdering the innocent bystander because that death was a result of her crime of attempted murder of her husband.

Lelouch would never have said that he could make Euphemia kill the Japanese if she had not asked him if he could have made her shoot him. She would not have asked that if Lelouch had not told her about his plan to make her shoot him and start a revolution. Lelouch would not have told her about his plans to make her shoot him and start a revolution if he had not made those plans earlier and was not still intending to carry out those plans. Lelouch told Euphemia about his plans when he was still intending to carry them out (he probably did so to make her realize how he had defeated her). Therefore telling Euphemia about his plans was a part of his crimes of attempted mass murder and attempted murder of her.

The Fuji Massacre was the direct result of Lelouch's earlier plan to start a revolution and trick thousands of people into dying for it. Lelouch (and possibly CC) was guilty of murdering everybody who was killed in the Fuji Massacre and the Black Rebellion.

Some people say that Lelouch did not murder Euphemia by shooting her, because they claim that killing her was the only way to save the Japanese from her. They claim that killing Euphemia was therefore a justified homicide, that Lelouch could not be blamed for.killing her. I do not believe that shooting Euphemia was a justified homicide. I believe it was murder.

But even if killing Euphemia was a justified homicide, it was would have been one which occurred as a result of Lelouch's earlier criminal plans for mass slaughter. Therefore if Euphemia died in any way, even one that was otherwise justified and blameless, that was a result of the command Lelouch gave her, Lelouch murdered her.(to be continued)[/quote]

blackrosetwilight
04-16-2009, 11:42 AM
Part two ends... sorry no comment here I didnt bother to even read the newest post, its just too long, but "ahem" now how will wolfgirl90 answer proEuphie's counter post?(cueing over dramatic music) til next time.

wolfgirl90
04-16-2009, 01:05 PM
...Except that he didn't care what happened to her. If it was something important to the overall plan, it would have been told, but all Lelouch included in the plan was to use the Geass on Euphemia, make her shoot him and make him look like a martyr. He wanted to "eliminate" Euphemia, as her plans for the SAZ were in dangerous conflict with those of the Black Knights. What did he mean by "eliminate"? Certainly not pardoning her and letting her go her merry way; that pretty much defeats the purpose (he can't make himself a martyr but forgive Euphemia). He could capture her, but I have already given the problems with that. He can't use her as a pawn against Cornelia since Cornelia can't really do anything except stop soldiers (remember, as Viseroy, she can not simply hand over Japan since Japan does not belong to her).

You are correct in saying that the point of the Zero Requiem was to have all the world's hatred fall on Lelouch and with his death (by "Zero"), have the world focus on peace. However, there was also a side plan. The Zero Reequiem was suppossed to make people, in essence, forget about the massacre that Euphemia caused and clear her name. Lelouch dying does not stop the world from hating him but rather stops the world from hating each other. In the same way, Euphemia dying at Fuji did not stop people from hating her. Her death did not take away the hatred that the Japanese had for her. The Japanese were going to hate her no matter what happened to her. However, with the Zero Requiem, the Japanese turned their focus away from Euphemia when they eventually find out that she was not at fault for the massacre; it was Lelouch.

proEuphie
04-19-2009, 09:39 PM
@proEuphie: I accept your apology from one of your previous posts, but again I do not know what you were trying to say. That whole "sinner" bit has been used by you before (and you used it again). In fact, its practically word for word from the previous time you used it (you are apparently trying to preach something, otherwise you wouldn't be repeating this three times), except that you were talking specifically about me rather than anime fans in general (which is why I ignored it the first time but got offended this time). Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:

"But I can't help thinking that it is a bad deed to ever advocate the more violent or brutal option, even when discussing fictional events. A person who chooses violence in real life does so as a result of many influences over his lifetime, each of which makes him a tiny bit more or less likely to commit violence. I think it is better to be one of the anti-violence influences."

Pardon me?:mad: Here is another quote from you:

"And here is another way to undo the geass:
Lelouch captures a bunch of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji massacre site. He takes one and says he is sentenced to die by gunshot for taking part in the massacre, but instead Zero will burn him at the stake unless he helps Zero. This girl CC will give him a geass power, and if that geass power is the power to undo one of Zero's geass commands, the soldier will be shot instead of burned at the stake. CC gives a power to the soldier, they bring in Euphemia, Zero tells the soldier to undo the geass command, and CC checks if the geass is gone from Euphemia. If it is gone, Lelouch shoots the soldier, if not Lelouch ties him to a stake and lights the fire and brings in the next soldier to try again."

Ignoring the fact that that wouldn't even work (Geass powers are based on one's inner most desires, not necessarily what's needed at the time, so Lelouch will end up killing an unknown amount of soldiers before realizing its not working), its apparently bad for me to say that Euphemia had to die because she was a threat to all those around her and that apparently makes me violent (even though we are discussing a cartoon), but its okay to kill a bunch of soldiers on the off chance that it could save one (count them: one) person? And you used that "sin" quote again (in case you didn't notice, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about this). Like I said before, despite what I say about Euphemia, I won't change the fact that she is dead. I did not influence that. Lelouch didn't influence that either (although he did kill her). The creators did that. I could be a "sinner" (I would appreciate you not calling me that again) for losing hope in Euphemia and saying that she is better of dead (I didn't "lose hope", for she WAS ALREADY DEAD; what hope is there to be had?), but having hope in her is not going to change the overall fact that she is dead. You can say that you are a better person for not giving up on her and trying to figure out how to keep her alive, HOWEVER, that does not stop the fact that she died before any of us decided our opinions on this. In fact, we wouldn't be here other wise. I can say that Euphemia had to die until my face turned blue but that does NOT mean that I decided her fate. And it doesn't mean anything. People, not just anime fans, talk about television characters all the time. If one person thinks that a character should die, that's honestly their opinion and you are not automatically a better person because you think the person should live.

Like I said before, Euphemia's personality (or anyone's personality, mind you) is not locked or suppressed while under the influence of the Geass. Just because she is acting nice does not mean that the Geass is wearing of (in fact, it is the sign of absolutely nothing:rolleyes:). She greeted Zero since she knew that he was her half-brother Lelouch and talked about the SAZ, which was the whole point of him being there in the first place (the memories of the SAZ would not be suppressed). Of course, creating the SAZ completely contradicts her current action of killing every Japanese she can find. When Lelouch shot her, she said, "Lelouch, why?" Whether this means she broke the Geass or not is not really clear. Even while under the influence of the Geass, she would be completely confused as to why her beloved half-brother just shot her in the stomach. If the gun shot broke the Geass (since would she physically incapable of carrying out much of anything once being shot, as per the rule), she would be even more confused as to why Lelouch shot her. So, saying "Lelouch, why?" doesn't necessarily mean she came out of the Geass (which is obvious since the Geass came back when she was in the hospital).

Speaking of her being shot, have you ever heard the phrase "Every time you place logic into an anime, God kills a catgirl?" This basically means that certain logical approaches to actions in anime not only do not work, but one is wasting their time trying to figure them out. Most people are aware that it takes only about a second to fall backwards under normal gravity. But there is no point in calculating that in a slow motion scene. The whole POINT of a slow motion scene is to allow more time for an action to take place. They slowed down the scene where Euphemia is shot to allow her to say "Lelouch, why?", knowing that under normal circumstances, she probably wouldn't be able to open her mouth before falling on the ground. Lelouch even said an entire sentence to her while she was falling! So, trying to figure out if she came out of the Geass based on this is pointless.

Now, to the "more pressing" matter: saving Euphemia. Lelouch NEVER intended on saving Euphemia's life in the first place, so there is no real point in offering tips to the contrary. He already threatened to shot her once before, and at the SAZ, he decided to have her shot him, make him look like a martyr, and to hell with the consequences of what happened to Euphemia. That was the original plan. Once she started shooting people, he decided to use the situation to his advantage and exploit Euphemia. He COULD have restrained her (actually, Lelouch has zero muscle power, so who knows if this would work). He COULD have tied her up. He COULD have captured her. He COULD have made her a prisoner. He COULD have saved her life. HOWEVER, that was NEVER part of the plan to begin with. He wanted to exploit Euphemia to the fullest during that situation, which was to blame the massacre on her, kill her (might as well; the Japanese would never except any punishment less than death for Euphemia), make the Japanese riot against Britannia and create an entirely new nation (matching the original plan).

To answer your question (since you danced around it many, many times), no, Euphemia didn't escape the Geass. This comes from both my opinion and your own. I say she not only didn't escape the Geass before she was shot, but she didn't "escape" the Geass until she ultimately died. So my answer is no. Since you have never directly answered your own question, let me give it for you: Euphemia was really, REALLY close to breaking the Geass when Lelouch arrived. By the time he was there, the Geass barely had any control over her. However, "barely" does not mean "none" or "broken". Remember, your question was whether or not she broke the Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her. Apparently, the answer would be: no.

Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.:rolleyes:

04/19/09 Why do you say there is no point in showing how Lelouch could have saved Euphemia? You say that saving her was never part of Lelouch's plan, that for example he already threatened to kill her once. More like twice, I think. Why do you keep answering my discussion about what a good person would do in Lelouch's place by saying that Lelouch would not do that?

Saving Euphemia was never part of Lelouch's plan for the SAZ opening. But that was an evil plan to trick thousands of people into dying for his revolution, a plan to commit mass murder. Lelouch gave up that plan when he made peace with Euphemia and seemingly stopped hating her and resumed loving her.

Either Lelouch gave up his plan to start a revolution at the SAZ opening but remained evil and was willing to do other evil things whenever he decided to, or he repented and became good and unwilling to do evil. The evidence supports the first possibility.

Whether Lelouch was good or evil, if he became friendly with Euphemia again he should have spent at least a few seconds thinking about ways to save her after giving her the geass command. And a few seconds should have been all it took to think of a way to capture her alive.

You say that Lelouch was so weak he might not have been able to restrain Euphemia. You seem to think that using force is the only way to capture or restrain someone. But throughout history countless guests have gradually become prisoners without any force being used against them.

For example, Mary Queen of Scots took refuge in England from her enemies in 1568 and was a first the guest of Queen Elizabeth, gradually becoming her prisoner, and was beheaded in 1686.

In 1587 fourteen-year-old "Red" Hugh O'Donnell, prince of Donegal, was lured aboard an English ship which sailed away to Dublin with him. And if he ever learned a lot of foreign history he might have said "I can't believe I fell for the old lure the young prince into the boat and sail away with him trick." He might have learned how in 1062 twelve-year-old Emperor Henry the Fourth boarded a Rhine river boat that stopped at the estate he was staying at. Once he was aboard, the boat rowed away with him - it had been sent by ambitious Archbishop Anno II of Cologne to seize Henry and to take the regency from his mother Agnes. Fearing assassination, Henry leaped into the river and almost drowned but Count Eckbert of Brunswick leaped after him and both rescued and recaptured him in the same action.

So once Lelouch destroyed Euphemia's nightmare he could have used his loudspeaker to invite her to take refuge from "whoever destroyed her nightmare" (pretending it wasn't him) inside his nightmare, and lowered the lift for her. Once she got inside CC and Lelouch could have given her an anesthetic or sedative from the medical supplies. If the Gawain didn't have any medical supplies CC could have done to Euphemia what she did to Suzaku in "'Battle at Narita" which should have kept Euphemia unconscious for a while. So Lelouch could have both rescued Euphemia from the angry Japanese and captured her, preventing her from killing any more Japanese, in the same action.

In the hours that it would take for Euphemia to become a pressing problem again Lelouch could surely spare a few seconds to plan the next step in dealing with her. After all, if he was anything like a typical teenage boy he would probably waste a lot of that time thinking about sex instead of political and military strategy. A lot more than the few seconds it would take to figure out what to to do with Euphemia next.

You say that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass and could not until she died. But you also say that she almost broke the control of the geass over her and it had very little control over her when she talked to Lelouch.

So we seem to be in agreement that Euphemia had already mostly defeated the geass by the time she talked to Lelouch. So if she hadn't been killed she might have had to be locked up for the rest of her life.

Or she might have broken free of the geass after eight years, like Nunnally, and then had a long life ahead of her to enjoy and to do good for others. Or she might have been cured of the geass after about a year when Jeremiah's geass canceler came into use. Or VV might have released her from the geass in a few days if Lelouch turned her over to the Britannians.

Or she might have defeated the geass in a few more minutes or hours, so that it might annoy her but never again have a serious chance of controlling her.

And Lelouch should have seen that Euphemia was not behaving like an ordinary person under the control of one of his geass commands, that she was now wasting time and not making any effort to kill the Japanese. That should have given him reason to believe that if she was confined for a few hours, days, or weeks, the geass command would lose all control over her.

A good person, in Lelouch's position, who noticed that Euphemia did not seem to be very much controlled by the geass would not need fond memories of her as a childhood playmate to convince him that the reason for killing her was no longer valid. The knowledge that she was innocent of ordering the massacre and had even made a unique resistance to the geass command, would make the weakening of the geass control of her enough to make him change his mind and capture her alive.[/quote]

proEuphie
04-24-2009, 11:02 PM
I have popcorn, although I heard the book was better.:p

Anyway, you seem to be missing my point about the whole "capture Euphemia" thing, proEuphie. While there may have been a chance that Euphemia could have been sedated, restrained and captured, those types of options are not available while there is somebody running around killing people. The threat needs to be taken care of as quickly as possible with as few people dying as possible. While killing someone is not the best thing to happen in a situation like this, if it has to happen, it will. If Euphemia was real and she was running around killing people, sorry, but I am in the military. Its part of my job to figure out how to neutralize threats.

However, this point is moot since Lelouch never planned on saving Euphemia in the first place. He never really cared what happened to her, so there is absolutely no point in saying he could have saved her, he could kept her prisoner, or he could have used her as a hostage. There is no point to this so long as he did not really care about her overall well being. Sure, he knew that Euphemia was a good person, but he also knew that Euphemia was an extremely naive person whose actions went against what he wanted and what he was working toward and thus had to be eliminated. He was going to work with her at one point, but that plan changed when she stared killing people.

Now, you have offered a lot of different scenarios of what Lelouch could do with Euphemia as a hostage. However, most of these arguments can be defeated by one simple fact: Emperor Charles does not care about his children. At all. He was happy that Clovis, his own son, had died since that meant that there was one less weak person alive in the world. Lelouch cannot use Euphemia as a hostage against Cornelia. She can stop the soldiers from attacking but that's about it (and she doesn't need Euphemia to do that).

Lelouch cannot make Cornelia give up Japan in exchange for Euphemia. Cornelia is a Viseroy, a person sent to govern a country or province in the name of a monarch. While she controls Japan, she does not OWN Japan and cannot gave the country away to anyone. She and Euphemia can change boundaries and use the land for what they want (such as Euphemia's SAZ) but they can't simply give the land away. Cornelia is there to govern in place of Charles, the person who DOES own Japan. Cornelia could try to give it away, but Charles would just take it away again. She could declare Tokyo a free city but Charles (onto Lelouch's plan at this point) could easily override anything that Cornelia does. Charles could have stopped the SAZ if he wanted to but, with Euphemia being politically naive (and eventually going around killing people), there was really no point in doing so. Lelouch could appeal to him, but like I said before, Charles barely cares about any of his children. Euphemia no longer holds claim to the throne and gave away her name. Charles may even call her weak for being controlled like that. Because of this, Lelouch can't "demand" that Charles do anything. V.V could cancel the Geass on Euphemia but that would involve him actually caring about doing it and/or Lelouch forcing him to (and I would love to see how you would convince an immortal to do anything).

While I understand your "sin" reference, again, you are giving off a "holier than thou" attitude about the opinions about the life of a cartoon character. Like I said, I had no involvement in the decision that Euphemia should die. The creators of the show decided that. They decided that this innocent, naive, peace-loving girl be shot in the stomach. I had no part in it. Now, in a situational standpoint, yes, she should have died, but my opinion doesn't matter. My opinion is not going to influence her death as Euphemia was already dead when I said it. You can give all these different ways and opinions about Euphemia being alive but it doesn't matter. She is going to be dead (and remain dead) no matter what you say, what I say or what anyone else says. And like I pointed out, you are not innocent when it comes to suggesting violence (far from it actually). Here's a quote from "Who do you want to die?", an AF thread about which InuYasha characters people wanted to die:

"Naraku! Of course. He should be burned at the stake, pulled apart by wild horses, sliced into a thousand pieces, cushed under a thound ton of rocke, etc. etc."

You have said that the lives of the soldiers that took place in that murder mean absolutely nothing and that killing millions upon millions of them is much better than the killing of one "good" person. Pardon me, but who do you think you are? Are you some mystical being that sits on high who can decide whos lives are worth more than others? While people who take place in massacres are terrible people, I can not say that there lives are "worthless" nor am I in any position to make that decision. Neither are you. Euphemia is not that good a person such that millions deserve to die for her sake (like I pointed out last time, she is a virtual carbon copy Lacus Clyne from Gundam SEED; Euphemia is nothing special as far as cartoon characters go). If you wonder why I worry about their lives, then you have some serious issues that you need to work out.

You think I am a bad person for thinking Euphemia should die? That apparently I am pro-violence based upon events in my life (I do do not know where you get off saying this)? Well, you are not so innocent yourself, since you believe that millions of lives should be sacrificed for the sake of one person (who just killed a bunch of people herself). You can call me a sinner all you want to but in doing so, you make yourself look quite arrogant and ignorant (like all the other people who decided to call me that).

And I believe I am done here. I have answered your question. You have repeatedly answered your OWN question. And have decided that any and all people who decide that a fictional character should die (namely Euphemia) is a sinner, regardless of the fact that many people do this all the time and that you are not innocent of this "sin".

04/24/09 Why do you say there was a chance that Euphemia could have been "sedated, restrained and captured"? The capturing usually comes before sedating and restraining. You say those options are not available when someone is running around killing people. Euphemia was not running around killing people in Episode 23. She was riding a nightmare around and blasting at people with its guns. Then Lelouch destroyed her nightmare and Euphemia was just one girl stumbling along on the ground facing two nightmares that could have blasted her at any second that she became a threat to innocent bystanders.

But they didn't blast her with the big guns, so either Lelouch, CC, and Kallen were not aware of any Japanese still in the vicinity or they didn't care about the lives of those Japanese. If they saw Euphemia try to pick up a weapon one of the nightmares could have taken a few steps toward her and then either Killed her or put its hand between her and the weapon.

Clearly Euphemia could have been killed or captured alive as soon as she crawled out of the wreckage of her nightmare. If Euphemia's threat had to be taken care of as soon as possible then it would have been better to have killed or captured her as soon as she crawled out of the wreckage of her nightmare than to have killed or captured her a little later when Lelouch did shoot her.

You may decide this means it would have been better to kill Euphemia as soon as she got out of the wreckage than to capture her at the time when Lelouch shot her. But it can also be mean that it would have been better to capture her as soon as she crawled out of the wreckage than to kill her when Lelouch did shoot her.

The nightmares might have come with methods to capture people such as 1) stun guns or 2) net-throwers. Perhaps Lelouch and Kallen took theirs off their nightmares because they didn't believe in taking prisoners. 3) And of course a nightmare could capture someone by picking her up in its hand.

Then the nightmare would be unable to use a weapon with that hand until it transferred the prisoner to somewhere else, like the hand of another nightmare or into the prisoner bin or cage (although I don't remember seeing any nightmares with anything that looked like a prisoner bin or cage). Or it could put the prisoner in an entrance hatch of itself or a companion nightmare and the prisoner could have been subdued and immobilized by someone inside the vehicle.

4) Or Lelouch could have gone on the loudspeaker and persuaded Euphemia into getting into his nightmare. He could say he was Zero and she was in danger, that someone had destroyed her nightmare and people wanted to hurt her, and asked her to get into his vehicle for protection. It shouldn't waste much valuable time for Lelouch to think of a line like that since it was pretty much the truth.

Then maybe Lelouch/Zero could give her a big hug while CC gave her an injection to sedate her for a while. Or if they didn't have any medical supplies they could hit her over the head with the butt of a gun or something. Or CC could give her a Vulcan nerve pinch, or rather do the memory thing she did to Suzaku that knocked him out in "Battle of Narita".

And if this took long enough, by the time Euphemia was in the nightmare she might be almost out of the control of the geass. If they noticed that she was not trying to get them to hunt down Japanese they might delay making her unconscious until they tried to get her to order her troops to stop killing the Japanese and retreat. Which might save a lot more Japanese lives than the ones she might have killed with just a machine gun.

Euphemia did pick up a machine gun conveniently lying on the ground. Neither nightmare made a move to stop her, so probably neither Lelouch, CC, nor Kallen saw any Japanese around who they wished to protect from Euphemia.

Euphemia fired the machine gun at Lelouch's Gawain until it jammed. By the time she managed to load another clip she saw Zero descending the lift and recognized it was Lelouch, and then more or less ignored the gun in her hands to talk to Lelouch. Lelouch probably decided to descend to the ground and was on his way to the lift when Euphemia picked up the machine gun. Possibly he was aware of the machine gun and waited to descend in the lift until he saw her struggling with the mechanism.

Anyway, Lelouch probably felt perfectly safe around Euphemia. He should have known that it would be very easy to capture her alive by force or trickery if she loved and trusted him enough not to endanger him. And if it is equally safe and easy, it is always better to capture someone than kill them.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia he passed within a few feet of her, and then he walked past her with his back to her. He probably felt perfectly safe despite noticing that her machine gun was probably loaded, because he knew that she loved and trusted him too much to shoot him in the back.

When Lelouch was just a few feet from Euphemia he could have suddenly shot her dead.

5) Or he could have shot her in an arm. 6) Or a leg. 7) Or an arm and a leg. 8) Or in both shoulders.

9) Or he could have punched her in the jaw. 10) Or the stomach. 11) Or kicked her in the jaw. 12) Or the stomach.

13) Or hit her over the head with the butt of his gun.

14) Or knocked her machine gun out of her hands and twisted her arm behind her back.

15) Or he could have asked her to put down her gun and give him a hug. If she did that he could have told her she was in danger from the people who destroyed her knightmare and invited her to come into his nightmare with him where they could plan their future actions.

Then he could have hurried her back to the lift of his nightmare and they might start to ascend by the time when he did shoot her, with very few extra seconds in which she might have seen and tried to kill a Japanese. Which would have been very difficult once she put down the machine gun if Lelouch kept his own gun secure.

You say in that kind of situation a threat has to be neutralized as soon as possible with as few people as possible dying. In the episode as aired the threat was neutralized with one person dying in the period after Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed. Any of the methods I mentioned would have had a good chance of neutralizing the threat as soon as it was neutralized and with no persons dying in the period after Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed.

How can killing Euphemia be justified on the grounds of protecting other people if she could have been captured alive just as fast, as easy, and with just as little danger to other persons, as killing her? [/quote]

blackrosetwilight
04-25-2009, 10:12 AM
proEuphie... please just let poor Euphimia rest in peace, hasnt she suffer enough, just let it go already.

Funkgun
04-26-2009, 06:57 PM
At this point she will be resurrected.

proEuphie
04-28-2009, 08:08 PM
@proEuphie:

(several paragraphs deleted to save space)


Piggybacking off of blackrosetwilight, after all this discussion Euphemia is still dead. While Euphemia stood out as a character in Code Geass, she does not stand out as a character by herself. In fact, Euphemia mirrors Lacus Clyne (from Gundam SEED, which is also made by Sunrise) from the royalty, to the pacifism, to the befriending of a soldier (who becomes her "lover") to the long pink hair and high voice (Lacus Clyne might as well be Euphemia's sister, if not her twin). Both girls are even 16 (until the time skip in Gundam SEED Destiny)! What I am basically trying to say is, when it comes to Euphemia, you need to calm down a bit. Its one thing to be a fan, but you are accusing people (us) of committing deadly sins and having violent tendencies because they (we) supposedly "lost hope" in an already dead cartoon character.:rolleyes:

I saw Gundam seed and I know that there are similarities between Lacus and Euphemia, just are there are similarities between Light and Lelouch. But if you have ever argued that Lelouch is an original character despite those similarities you should accept that Euphemia might have been conceived as a Lacus clone but can be viewed is being in some ways a very interesting and original character. Perhaps much more so than "that Light clone" Lelouch.

I have read a lot of science fiction and have read about tens and hundreds and maybe thousands of protagonists, antagonists, and other characters, with intelligence and cleverness similar to Lelouch's. His intelligence and physical ineptness would make him a refreshing change of pace as a anime protagonist if he wasn't so evil. He could show Inuyasha, Ichigo, and a host of others a thing or two. But in the world of written science fiction he is a somewhat more familiar type of character.

Your idea that Euphemia is a comparatively ordinary character may be due to lack of interest. I just considered her a very nice minor character until I saw Lelouch shoot her for no good reason. My anger at first was just for the evilness of the murder,and would have been almost as great if the victim had been as evil as Kallen, or CC, or Cornelia, or Ogri, or Kaguya, or Suzaku in the second season, or any of the other numerous villains in Code Geass.

But as I thought about it more and more I noticed more and more interesting facets to Euphemia. CC is obviously a mysterious character with her geass powers. But Euphemia resisted the evil geass command to kill the Japanese at first (probably because it was evil and not because it was a geass command) and seemed to have mostly escaped from the control of the geass when she was talking to Lelouch, probably due to continued subconscious resistance to the geass. Possibly Euphemia is a more mysterious character than CC.

Euphemia seems to have low self esteem for a girl who is probably idolized by millions of strangers. She is polite to other people but doesn't react much when Kallen insults her, as if she has been trained to consider herself worthless. She greets her brother Schneitzel warmly in "island of the Gods", after he zapped her with a ray which teleported her into the ocean where she might have been drowned - she doesn't seem to care that he endangered her.

I suspect that she has been humiliated, insulted, and mistreated in private by most members of the imperial family and perhaps the higher nobility, for reasons unknown. Perhaps a group that large will always have a few pariahs and Euphemia just seemed odd enough to naturally become one of them.

Possibly Euphemia's only childhood friends were Lelouch and Nunnally and she had no friends her own age after they were lost (except possibly friends at school) until she met Suzaku. Possibly Cornelia was the only person who loved Euphemia after Lelouch and Nunnaly were lost.

In "Black Knight" Euphemia was held hostage for hours, revealed her true identity in the hope of getting the other hostages released, and then talked rather calmly with her brother's killer in a room full of dead bodies. Perhaps she was just born calm, or perhaps she has had experiences which got her used to that type of thing. Experiences which don't fit into the usual picture of her life before coming to Japan.

Anyway, I see a lot of hints that if Euphemia had been the protagonist, antagonist, or other major character, of a series she could have become one of the most interesting characters in anime.

As for your statements about making a fuss about a cartoon character who is already dead, a lot of Code geass fans hope to see Lelouch come back somehow. Your words remind me of what someone might have said to a Sherlock Holmes fan in 1895 or 1898 that it was no use getting upset about a fictional character who was already dead. (In the "The Final Problem", published 1893, fictional date 1891). But the fans did get Holmes to return in "The Empty House" (published 1903, fictional date 1894).

And I want Euphemia to return.

"I want Euphemia alive and Lelouch dead. But I guess I can settle for Euphemia and Lelouch alive."[/quote]

proEuphie
04-28-2009, 10:21 PM
At this point she will be resurrected.

I certainly hope so.

"I want Euphemia alive and Lelouch dead. But I guess I can settle for Euphemia and Lelouch alive." [/quote]

proEuphie
04-29-2009, 12:51 AM
proEuphie... please just let poor Euphimia rest in peace, hasnt she suffer enough, just let it go already.

No. "I want Euphemia alive and Lelouch dead. But I guess I could settle for both Euphemia and Lelouch alive." [/quote]

blackrosetwilight
04-29-2009, 07:04 AM
No. "I want Euphemia alive and Lelouch dead. But I guess I could settle for both Euphemia and Lelouch alive." [/quote]
ok... but they're both still dead, and besides that lelouch already took the rep for killing her already and died for everything he did wrong.

Seta Souji
04-30-2009, 01:42 PM
You are correct in saying that the point of the Zero Requiem was to have all the world's hatred fall on Lelouch and with his death (by "Zero"), have the world focus on peace. However, there was also a side plan. The Zero Reequiem was suppossed to make people, in essence, forget about the massacre that Euphemia caused and clear her name. Lelouch dying does not stop the world from hating him but rather stops the world from hating each other. In the same way, Euphemia dying at Fuji did not stop people from hating her. Her death did not take away the hatred that the Japanese had for her. The Japanese were going to hate her no matter what happened to her. However, with the Zero Requiem, the Japanese turned their focus away from Euphemia when they eventually find out that she was not at fault for the massacre; it was Lelouch.

Bravo! Couldn't have been explained any better.

proEuphie
06-15-2009, 10:07 PM
I am now of the opinion that Euphemia very largely escaped from the control of her geass in the short period between shooting at Lelouch's nightmare and asking him him to help her administer the zone. And possibly in the even shorter period between telling Lelouch/Zero she had thought he was Japanese and asking him to help with the Zone.

Before the geass could make her kill against her deepest convictions, afterward it could not make her look for more victims instead of chatting with Lelouch. Obviously Euphemia's desire to talk, however strong it might be compared to the desire to talk of a hermit like me, could not be nearly as strong as her hatred of killing and violence.

So before the geass could overcome Euphemia's strongest convictions, and afterward it was too weak to overcome a somewhat weaker desire of Euphemia. That is a drastic drop in power, like an incandescent light bulb fading when the power is turned off.

Possibly recognizing Zero, who she knew was Lelouch, was an external stimulus which defeated the geass command. If the geass had told her that she was seven years earlier in time and that the Japanese in the stadium were gathered to torture to death Lelouch and Nunnally, that might have helped the geass to take over her body. Seeing Lelouch would then have proven that she was not seven years in the past, but in the future when Lelouch and Nunnally were older and had not been tortured to death.

Or possibly seeing Zero was just a coincidence. Possibly the geass command had had to use ever increasing amounts of geass energy to take over Euphemia and keep in control and had used up a supply which would normally last a lifetime in just about an hour or possibly much less. And possibly the geass command had drained the world's supplies of geass energy keeping Euphie under control and finally had to quit when the world's supplies got dangerously low. If so, I can only hope that some of that enormous amount of geass energy leaked into Euphie and turned her into a geass giver like CC or VV, so she could revive soon after dying and live somewhere in secret between the two seasons and during the second season, to emerge sometime during the third season if it is ever made.

Or perhaps Euphemia's subconscious mind continued to resist and attack the geass command and wore it down until it failed to keep any significant control while Euphemia was talking to Lelouch. If Nunnally 's subconscious mind attacked and wore down her blindness geass during a large part or even all of the eight years that Nunnally was blind, until Nunnally could suddenly break her geass, then Euphemia seems to have done about 90 percent of what Nunnally did about ten thousand times faster. If it was an amazing feat for Nunnally to break her blindness geass then somehow Euphemia must not be a human being but some kind of supernatural and/or extraterrestrial being. And I can hope that perhaps her species has the ability to regenerate from serious wounds and revive from seeming death.

blackrosetwilight
07-27-2009, 09:26 AM
You know I always wonder why lelouch never went overkill and used the hadron cannon instead of that little gun, now that would've made a more epic death for Euphy and I might o felt some sympathy but... LONG LIVE LACUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL nah still sad either way.

IcePriestess
07-27-2009, 11:10 AM
Nunally overcame not Lelouch's Geass, which is absolute order, but Charles, which is memory manipulation and it took years for her to do that. And by the way, Charles died, so maybe his Geass became weaker after his death. And Euphemia. That thought that she must kill all Japanese was inscrutable to her. That's why she was able to Resist it a little. But in the end, she didn't overcame it. Even though when Lelouch shot her, she said: Why? At that time she just regained her conscious a little, because of the pain and of surprise that Lelouch did shoot her. And when she didn't kill Suzaku. That was because her physical condition didn't let her. She just wasn't able to do it. So in the end she just manipulated by Geass and died without Escaping it.

wolfgirl90
07-27-2009, 12:13 PM
Nunally overcame not Lelouch's Geass, which is absolute order, but Charles, which is memory manipulation and it took years for her to do that. And by the way, Charles died, so maybe his Geass became weaker after his death. And Euphemia. That thought that she must kill all Japanese was inscrutable to her. That's why she was able to Resist it a little. But in the end, she didn't overcame it. Even though when Lelouch shot her, she said: Why? At that time she just regained her conscious a little, because of the pain and of surprise that Lelouch did shoot her. And when she didn't kill Suzaku. That was because her physical condition didn't let her. She just wasn't able to do it. So in the end she just manipulated by Geass and died without Escaping it.

You basically summed up everything that has been said and have successfully answered proEuphie's question.:laugh:

Hopefully, she will pay attention.

IcePriestess
07-27-2009, 12:15 PM
You basically summed up everything that has been said and have successfully answered proEuphie's question.:laugh:

Hopefully, she will pay attention.

Actually I was too bored to read these all posts, so I just answered the question myself and expressed my opinion. I didn't read everything. It's too much :p

SigmaSD
07-27-2009, 12:27 PM
Actually I was too bored to read these all posts, so I just answered the question myself and expressed my opinion. I didn't read everything. It's too much :p

I don't think anyone reads them either, I mean... they would rather read the bible than all these posts. :o

But to answer the question, no Euphie didn't escape the Geass, but she did try to resist. Not even Charles Vi Britannia could escape the Geass because if you remember, he shot himself when Lelouch used Geass on him. He even used it on the gods and they couldn't resist. So nobody has ever escaped from the wrath of Lelouch and his Geass. *evil laughter*

KamiKenpachi
07-27-2009, 01:20 PM
Dear god. ( dear Lelouch. )
How much can you people write?
Ok, here is my thoughs. feel free to debate it with me but please get to the point as fast as you can.
"escape"? no...
Fighting like hell? YES
Ok I think that she did not see Suzaku as an 11 as much as the other random people she did not know, and the red showed she was still being manipulated by Geass but fightng like hell.
Also another reason she did not do anything to Suzaku was because the Geass would not active if she was just unable to move much, and her mind was fighting.
Personaly I will say I am 75% sure she did not, and 10% sure it was something inbetween, and 5% she did.

Note: Yes Code Geass fans can be scary.

Luluko
07-27-2009, 01:50 PM
But to answer the question, no Euphie didn't escape the Geass, but she did try to resist. Not even Charles Vi Britannia could escape the Geass because if you remember, he shot himself when Lelouch used Geass on him. He even used it on the gods and they couldn't resist. So nobody has ever escaped from the wrath of Lelouch and his Geass. *evil laughter*

Well, that can be debatable since by then he had V.V's code. Personally, I took it as an attempt to troll his son. Though you can be right if we accept the theory that you need to "die" or "get hurt" so the code could activate.

wolfgirl90
07-27-2009, 10:19 PM
But to answer the question, no Euphie didn't escape the Geass, but she did try to resist. Not even Charles Vi Britannia could escape the Geass because if you remember, he shot himself when Lelouch used Geass on him.

IF he used the Geass on him. Right now, while it is confirmed that the Geass reached Charles' eyes, whether it worked or not is based upon the various opinions of the viewers (although, I don't think that it was meant to be up to be speculation).

For me, I have the same view as Luluko, that Charles was merely trolling around with Lelouch, rather than actually being under his influence.;)

proEuphie
07-29-2009, 10:21 PM
Nunally overcame not Lelouch's Geass, which is absolute order, but Charles, which is memory manipulation and it took years for her to do that. And by the way, Charles died, so maybe his Geass became weaker after his death. And Euphemia. That thought that she must kill all Japanese was inscrutable to her. That's why she was able to Resist it a little. But in the end, she didn't overcame it. Even though when Lelouch shot her, she said: Why? At that time she just regained her conscious a little, because of the pain and of surprise that Lelouch did shoot her. And when she didn't kill Suzaku. That was because her physical condition didn't let her. She just wasn't able to do it. So in the end she just manipulated by Geass and died without Escaping it.

1) Euphemia did not do anything to obey the geass after shooting at the nightmares with the machine gun (which Lelouch & co. so inexplicably let her pick up and keep) and then trying to reload it. Euphemia did not seem to be aware of her geass command after apologizing to Lelouch/Zero for thinking he was Japanese.

After that Euphemia did nothing to obey the command and kill Japanese while the clock ticked and seconds passed away. She watched Lelouch/Zero, who had the power to help or hinder her obedience to the geass command, and did not say anything about it to him.

I think the geass command no longer had the power to make her do anything to obey it and kill Japanese people. Euphemia had mostly regained control of her actions. But obviously she did not clearly remember the massacre, which would have horrified her. Thus she was rapidly escaping from the control of the geass and forgetting what she had done when under its control.

2) Then there are the eyes, which I discussed in a previous post called "Do the Eyes Have it?" # 6 in this thread.

Euphemia still had red circles around her eyes right before Lelouch shot her, despite the fact that she was ignoring and unaware of the geass command. This shows that the red circles appear as soon as the geass command gets a tiny percentage of the control it needs to dominate someone's will, and not when it has achieved total domination and control. Of course with everyone else the difference is insignificant, since every other person becomes totally enslaved by the geass command within a split second of the red circles appearing.

3) When Suzaku asked Euphemia in the sick bay why she gave the order she asked him what order, puzzled, and there were no red circles in her eyes. So she had forgotten about the massacre, and the absence of red circles showed that she was even less controlled by the geass command than when she had been talking to Lelouch, unaware of the geass command.

That seems like she was one hundred percent or almost one hundred percent free of the geass.

Then the red circles appeared in her eyes, after a time Euphie became aware of the geass command, fought against it, and then she was peaceful again, and then the red circles vanished. Euphie was not even aware of the geass command for a large part of the time that the red circles were in her eyes, which proves that they were visible when the geass command was not even strong enough for her to notice and resist it.

Though it is commonly believed that the geass command faded away because it found that Euphemia was too weak to kill it is possible that Euphemia simply resisted and defeated it. After the geass command tried to take over her, she did move her hands and arms a little. She was not totally helpless. She might have found a way to attack Suzaku.

For example, the geass command might have made her put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, next to his neck, and then slash his throat with her thumbnail, hoping to cut a vital blood vessel.

4) The evidence seems to clearly show that Euphemia almost totally freed herself from the geass command and regained control of her body before Lelouch shot her. So how does that compare to Nunnally?

I said that Euphemia seems to have approximately ninety percent or so freed herself from control of the geass command in minutes, probably less than an hour, and on the order of ten thousand times faster than Nunnally freed herself. If one of Lelouch's geass commands was much stronger than one of Charles's memory manipulation geasses, then Euphemia's feat is even more impressive when compared to Nunnally's own quite impressive feat.

But if Nunnally only started to free herself from her geass when Charles died, she did so in a month or so. Thus makes the speed of Euphemia's escape much less impressive compared to Nunnally's. But on the other hand it means that Euphemia freed herself when the geass user who had put it on her, Lelouch, was still alive, instead of having to wait until he died, as Nunnally had to wait until Charles died.

Anyway you look at it Euphemia's struggle against the geass and and almost entirely freeing herself from it's effects is extremely impressive compared to even the next best example, Nunnally.

5) SigmaSD in post # 41 says that even the gods could not escape the power of Lelouch's geass commands. That proves that the geass commands are very powerful indeed, but it does not disprove the evidence which shows Euphemia ignoring and even seemingly unaware of the geass command right before Lelouch shot her. So establishing the immense power of the geass commands merely makes Euphemia's eventually successful resistance even more impressive. Not just super human but also super divine.

proEuphie
07-29-2009, 10:34 PM
Dear god. ( dear Lelouch. )
How much can you people write?
Ok, here is my thoughs. feel free to debate it with me but please get to the point as fast as you can.
"escape"? no...
Fighting like hell? YES
Ok I think that she did not see Suzaku as an 11 as much as the other random people she did not know, and the red showed she was still being manipulated by Geass but fightng like hell.
Also another reason she did not do anything to Suzaku was because the Geass would not active if she was just unable to move much, and her mind was fighting.
Personaly I will say I am 75% sure she did not, and 10% sure it was something inbetween, and 5% she did.

Note: Yes Code Geass fans can be scary.

Se my post # 45

proEuphie
07-29-2009, 10:41 PM
I don't think anyone reads them either, I mean... they would rather read the bible than all these posts. :o

But to answer the question, no Euphie didn't escape the Geass, but she did try to resist. Not even Charles Vi Britannia could escape the Geass because if you remember, he shot himself when Lelouch used Geass on him. He even used it on the gods and they couldn't resist. So nobody has ever escaped from the wrath of Lelouch and his Geass. *evil laughter*

See my post # 45. I say that Euphemia resisted her geass command more than even the gods could.

proEuphie
07-29-2009, 10:42 PM
Actually I was too bored to read these all posts, so I just answered the question myself and expressed my opinion. I didn't read everything. It's too much :p

If it is too much to read everything, read my latest post, # 45.

proEuphie
07-29-2009, 10:44 PM
You basically summed up everything that has been said and have successfully answered proEuphie's question.:laugh:

Hopefully, she will pay attention.

No, she hasn't successfully answered my question. See my post # 45.

proEuphie
07-29-2009, 10:55 PM
You know I always wonder why lelouch never went overkill and used the hadron cannon instead of that little gun, now that would've made a more epic death for Euphy and I might o felt some sympathy but... LONG LIVE LACUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL nah still sad either way.

see my post # 31 Euphemia's not a Lacus Clone.

And see my post # 45.

Once Lelouch destroyed her nightmare and Euphie crawled out of the wreckage, Lelouch could have instantly blasted her with one of his big guns or picked her up in the hand of his nightmare to capture her. Lelouch could have destroyed her nightmare by blasting it with one of the big guns, which would have killed her instantly, instead of slicing it apart. He could have killed her or captured her before he did kill her.

Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her. After her nightmare was destroyed Euphemia was totally helpless to kill anyone until Lelouch and Co. let her pick up and keep a machine gun.

Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to get back to commanding the fight against the Britannians at Fuji and then start planning the next steps in the Black Rebellion. If there were any Britannians still fighting and massacring at Fuji capturing Euphemia and using her as a hostage would be the best way to stop the fighting as fast as possible.

If there were any Japanese people in front of Euphie and behind the nightmares the geass command would have made Euphie mow them down instead of wasting her bullets on the nightmares. Unless at that point Euphie was only pretending to the geass command that she was doing her best to kill as many Japanese as possible but was actually trying to kill as few as possible. If there were any Japanese people in front of Lelouch and behind Euphie Lelouch would have deliberately condemmed them to death when he walked past Euphie and made it almost certain that she would turn around to look at him as he walked away with his back to her, confident that she wouldn't shoot him.

So it is almost certain that there were no Japanese around to be endangered by Euphemia or to be witnesses. Even if Lelouch wanted to claim the glory of killing her he could have secretly captured her and then claimed to have killed her, asking CC and commanding Kallen to back him up.

KamiKenpachi
07-29-2009, 11:00 PM
Se my post # 45Too much to read. O.o:closedeye
............. Sorry?

IcePriestess
07-30-2009, 04:05 AM
And see my post # 45.

Once Lelouch destroyed her nightmare and Euphie crawled out of the wreckage, Lelouch could have instantly blasted her with one of his big guns or picked her up in the hand of his nightmare to capture her. Lelouch could have destroyed her nightmare by blasting it with one of the big guns, which would have killed her instantly, instead of slicing it apart. He could have killed her or captured her before he did kill her.

Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her. After her nightmare was destroyed Euphemia was totally helpless to kill anyone until Lelouch and Co. let her pick up and keep a machine gun.

Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to get back to commanding the fight against the Britannians at Fuji and then start planning the next steps in the Black Rebellion. If there were any Britannians still fighting and massacring at Fuji capturing Euphemia and using her as a hostage would be the best way to stop the fighting as fast as possible.

If there were any Japanese people in front of Euphie and behind the nightmares the geass command would have made Euphie mow them down instead of wasting her bullets on the nightmares. Unless at that point Euphie was only pretending to the geass command that she was doing her best to kill as many Japanese as possible but was actually trying to kill as few as possible. If there were any Japanese people in front of Lelouch and behind Euphie Lelouch would have deliberately condemmed them to death when he walked past Euphie and made it almost certain that she would turn around to look at him as he walked away with his back to her, confident that she wouldn't shoot him.

So it is almost certain that there were no Japanese around to be endangered by Euphemia or to be witnesses. Even if Lelouch wanted to claim the glory of killing her he could have secretly captured her and then claimed to have killed her, asking CC and commanding Kallen to back him up.

Well I have read your bible(yeah post #45 too) and the only thing I have to say is: You are Euphemia's Protector :D. Well actually we can think of many possibilities. Oh and about a quote. You talked about how Lelouch shot Euphemia. Actually Lelouch didn't care about Japanese or Britannian people, until he decided to fight for them, not Nunally and his mother. Everything is decided only in R2, but Euphemia is shot at R1 #23 episode I think. So that means by that time everything Lelouch cared about is killing Charles and avenging his mother, creating Nunally a peacefull life. Just as you said, Lelouch didn't want Euphemia to kill Japanese, because She didn't want it. Actually as it was said Euphemia was Lelouch's first love, so it makes sence. Before Lelouch unintetionaly cast his Geass upon Euphemia, he accepted that "Zone" or whatever it was called, where Elevens will become Japanese again. But after he cast his Geass he decided to use this, even though he did it with "Tear in his eye". I think that's what 23 episode is called. He saw that Euphemia CAN'T BREAK his Geass. HE even TRIED TO CANCEL HIS ORDER. But Euphemia kept slaughtering and slaughtering. IF she would have Escaped his Geass before he shot her, then this wouldn't have even happened. This is threads name, not BEFORE SHE DIED, BUT BEFORE SHE WAS SHOT.
Did Euphemia escape from te controal of her geass before lelouch shote her?h (http://www.animeforum.com/showthread.php?p=2306997#post2306997)
So the answer to this is:
No, she didn't escape it. If only she would have escaped it, Lelouch wouldn't have shot her.

proEuphie
07-30-2009, 11:24 AM
Well I have read your bible(yeah post #45 too) and the only thing I have to say is: You are Euphemia's Protector :D. Well actually we can think of many possibilities. Oh and about a quote. You talked about how Lelouch shot Euphemia. Actually Lelouch didn't care about Japanese or Britannian people, until he decided to fight for them, not Nunally and his mother. Everything is decided only in R2, but Euphemia is shot at R1 #23 episode I think. So that means by that time everything Lelouch cared about is killing Charles and avenging his mother, creating Nunally a peacefull life. Just as you said, Lelouch didn't want Euphemia to kill Japanese, because She didn't want it. Actually as it was said Euphemia was Lelouch's first love, so it makes sence. Before Lelouch unintetionaly cast his Geass upon Euphemia, he accepted that "Zone" or whatever it was called, where Elevens will become Japanese again. But after he cast his Geass he decided to use this, even though he did it with "Tear in his eye". I think that's what 23 episode is called. He saw that Euphemia CAN'T BREAK his Geass. HE even TRIED TO CANCEL HIS ORDER. But Euphemia kept slaughtering and slaughtering. IF she would have Escaped his Geass before he shot her, then this wouldn't have even happened. This is threads name, not BEFORE SHE DIED, BUT BEFORE SHE WAS SHOT.
Did Euphemia escape from te controal of her geass before lelouch shote her?h (http://www.animeforum.com/showthread.php?p=2306997#post2306997)
So the answer to this is:
No, she didn't escape it. If only she would have escaped it, Lelouch wouldn't have shot her.

Yes, Lelouch tried to make Euphie disobey the geass in episode 22. But after she slipped away from him he just ordered his people to kill her. He should have ordered them to capture her and use her as a hostage to force the Britannians to stop the massacre.

What would be the problem with locking Euphemia up so she couldn't kill anyone? This was a world with countless thousands or millions of prisoners after all. With reasonable security Euphemia would be no more likely to kill more people than any of the thousands and thousands of Britannian and Chinese and Euro Universe soldiers and Black Knights who were free, and armed, and might be given orders to massacre at any moment.

If Lelouch cared enough to ask CC, she might have been able to tell him about ways to break a geass command. She certainly could have told him that VV could undo geass commands given by Lelouch who got his power from CC, just as CC later undid a forgetting geass used by Charles who got his power from VV.

Since VV was immortal, he probably had a morbid fear of loosing his money and being poor for countless ages. So he would probably do anything easy and not too evil for him for some money to invest in some of his countless secret investment funds. CC could have told Lelouch that undoing Euphemia's geass command would be a simple matter of negotiation for her guardians.

And it seems absurd to say that Euphemia was under the control of the geass command when she was talking to Lelouch and then just standing around watching him before he shot her. She knew that Lelouch/Zero was the leader of the Black Knights, a rebel group which had enough military power to be a serious threat to Britannian control of Japan. She could see two of their nightmares in front of her and towering over her.

The geass command had access to all her knowledge, so it knew that Lelouch/Zero had the potential to help or hinder the carrying out of the order to kill the Japanese. If it had control of Euphemia it would have done something or said something to try to gain Zero's help and/or avoid Zero's interference. But she didn't do or say anything to even find out Zero's intentions, let alone influence them. Clearly the geass was not in control of her before Lelouch shot her, and he should have noticed that.

Euphie did largely escape from the control of her geass and Lelouch shot her anyway.

Luluko
07-30-2009, 01:30 PM
Yes, Lelouch tried to make Euphie disobey the geass in episode 22. But after she slipped away from him he just ordered his people to kill her. He should have ordered them to capture her and use her as a hostage to force the Britannians to stop the massacre.

The Britannians wouldn't have stopped the massacre. "Hey, the Japanese captured our Princess... GET THEM!" And we all know that Cornelia would've been on the first row of the killing spree.


What would be the problem with locking Euphemia up so she couldn't kill anyone? This was a world with countless thousands or millions of prisoners after all. With reasonable security Euphemia would be no more likely to kill more people than any of the thousands and thousands of Britannian and Chinese and Euro Universe soldiers and Black Knights who were free, and armed, and might be given orders to massacre at any moment.

Geez, you love Euphemia enough to be alright with locking her up like a lunatic. Didn't you say on another post that you loved her and admired her because she was a good person and did good things. I don't know, but her locked up like a mental patient would totally stop her from doing "good things for others", ergo, she wouldn't be the Euphie you love anymore =(


If Lelouch cared enough to ask CC, she might have been able to tell him about ways to break a geass command. She certainly could have told him that VV could undo geass commands given by Lelouch who got his power from CC, just as CC later undid a forgetting geass used by Charles who got his power from VV.

CC can't break a Geass command. VV can't do it either. Geass represents itself like the power that individual would manifest. CC didn't know that Lelouch's power was going to be 'control people', just like VV didn't know that Jeremiah's Geass had the power to cancel other Geass until he gave it to him.

I don't think I should say this, but I will in case you come up with the: VV should have made Jeremiah use his anti-Geass on Euphemia: Jeremiah got his Geass way after Euphemia died.


Since VV was immortal, he probably had a morbid fear of loosing his money and being poor for countless ages. So he would probably do anything easy and not too evil for him for some money to invest in some of his countless secret investment funds. CC could have told Lelouch that undoing Euphemia's geass command would be a simple matter of negotiation for her guardians.

You didn't pay attention while watching R2, right? VV was Charles's twin brother. He was a Prince and was being protected by the Emperor of Britannia. And even if Charles gave the throne to some one else, he had The Cult. It's safe to say VV had a lot of resources, so being poor wasn't something to be preoccupied with.


And it seems absurd to say that Euphemia was under the control of the geass command when she was talking to Lelouch and then just standing around watching him before he shot her. She knew that Lelouch/Zero was the leader of the Black Knights, a rebel group which had enough military power to be a serious threat to Britannian control of Japan. She could see two of their nightmares in front of her and towering over her.

The geass command had access to all her knowledge, so it knew that Lelouch/Zero had the potential to help or hinder the carrying out of the order to kill the Japanese. If it had control of Euphemia it would have done something or said something to try to gain Zero's help and/or avoid Zero's interference. But she didn't do or say anything to even find out Zero's intentions, let alone influence them. Clearly the geass was not in control of her before Lelouch shot her, and he should have noticed that.

She was under the control of the Geass. She was firing at random Japanese before Lelouch found her. She even tried to battle Kallen in a KF, though of course that was a lost cause since Euphie can be said to be an average pilot at best. And what did she care if two Knightmares were towering over her, she just wanted to kill the Eleven's thanks to the Geass.


Euphie did largely escape from the control of her geass and Lelouch shot her anyway.

No, she didn't. And that was the point. This whole thing with Euphemia was meant to be a sad plot device to make the story move further. Although you love Euphemia, she was never meant to be the leading girl or have a happy ending. It sucks (though not for me), but deal with it. The creators of Code Geass made this final, their purpose never was to make her the Harry Potter equivalent.

I know I shouldn't have done this, but oh God...*head/desk*

wolfgirl90
07-30-2009, 04:45 PM
1) Euphemia did not do anything to obey the geass after shooting at the nightmares with the machine gun (which Lelouch & co. so inexplicably let her pick up and keep) and then trying to reload it. Euphemia did not seem to be aware of her geass command after apologizing to Lelouch/Zero for thinking he was Japanese.

After that Euphemia did nothing to obey the command and kill Japanese while the clock ticked and seconds passed away. She watched Lelouch/Zero, who had the power to help or hinder her obedience to the geass command, and did not say anything about it to him.

I think the geass command no longer had the power to make her do anything to obey it and kill Japanese people. Euphemia had mostly regained control of her actions. But obviously she did not clearly remember the massacre, which would have horrified her. Thus she was rapidly escaping from the control of the geass and forgetting what she had done when under its control.

She WAS aware of the command after she saw Lelouch. Remember when she was talking to Lelouch about the SAZ and helping Japan, but said "Wait, Japan?" Her initial plans (helping the Japanese with the SAZ) were in complete contradiction of the command that has been given to her.

As I have already pointed out to you multiple times, she stopped firing because Lelouch, her dear half-brother, was talking to her. The Geass does not change one's personality nor are one's memories tampered with until AFTER the Geass has worn off.


2) Euphemia still had red circles around her eyes right before Lelouch shot her, despite the fact that she was ignoring and unaware of the geass command. This shows that the red circles appear as soon as the geass command gets a tiny percentage of the control it needs to dominate someone's will, and not when it has achieved total domination and control. Of course with everyone else the difference is insignificant, since every other person becomes totally enslaved by the geass command within a split second of the red circles appearing.

Oh, the assumptions you make. And I guess I am supposed to buy that?

First, that is over analyzing what is going on. The red circles appear in someone's eyes when ever the Geass is influencing them. Simple as that. Euphemia had red eyes when she was first resisting and then when she was completely controlled. Because of this, its rather futile to try and analyze HOW MUCH the Geass is controlling the person based on their eyes. However, since the red eyes are an indicator that the person is being controlled, the fact that Euphemia STILL had red eyes mean she DID NOT break the Geass before she was shot. You answered your own question again.

Second, let me remind you that NUNNALLY RESISTED LELOUCH'S GEASS FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AS EUPHEMIA!!! So, you can stop praising Euphemia for this, now.:rolleyes:


3) When Suzaku asked Euphemia in the sick bay why she gave the order she asked him what order, puzzled, and there were no red circles in her eyes. So she had forgotten about the massacre, and the absence of red circles showed that she was even less controlled by the geass command than when she had been talking to Lelouch, unaware of the geass command.

That seems like she was one hundred percent or almost one hundred percent free of the geass.

Yes, but that is not the question, isn't? The question is "Did Euphemia escape the Geass BEFORE she was shot?" The answer is an apparent no.


Then the red circles appeared in her eyes, after a time Euphie became aware of the geass command, fought against it, and then she was peaceful again, and then the red circles vanished. Euphie was not even aware of the geass command for a large part of the time that the red circles were in her eyes, which proves that they were visible when the geass command was not even strong enough for her to notice and resist it.

What are talking about? She WAS aware of the Geass command when the red circles were in her eyes when she was with Suzaku. "No! No! I mustn't think that way!"

She was resisting the whole time that the red circles were there. So your point is moot.


Though it is commonly believed that the geass command faded away because it found that Euphemia was too weak to kill it is possible that Euphemia simply resisted and defeated it. After the geass command tried to take over her, she did move her hands and arms a little. She was not totally helpless. She might have found a way to attack Suzaku.

Euphemia had just been shot in the stomach. She was in an intensive care unit. She just came out of surgery. I think that qualifies as totally helpless, don't you? The girl could barely keep her eyes open. If your only evidence that she must have defeated the Geass (rather than the Geass simply fading away) is that she did not get up and kill Suzaku, slashed his throat with her thumbnail or used some superhuman death grip on him, then you need to fall back to reality and quickly. Killing him with a slash at his throat with her THUMBNAIL?! Yeah, calm down.


4) The evidence seems to clearly show that Euphemia almost totally freed herself from the geass command and regained control of her body before Lelouch shot her. So how does that compare to Nunnally?

On par. As I pointed out, both Euphemia and Nunnally were able to resist Lelouch's Geass and they resisted for the same amount of time. So, that point is, once again, moot.


I said that Euphemia seems to have approximately ninety percent or so freed herself from control of the geass command in minutes, probably less than an hour, and on the order of ten thousand times faster than Nunnally freed herself.

But she NEVER escaped the control of the Geass. You just answered your own question once again. Also, I think you have completely forgotten about when Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally, otherwise you wouldn't be making this claim over and over again.


But if Nunnally only started to free herself from her geass when Charles died, she did so in a month or so. Thus makes the speed of Euphemia's escape much less impressive compared to Nunnally's. But on the other hand it means that Euphemia freed herself when the geass user who had put it on her, Lelouch, was still alive, instead of having to wait until he died, as Nunnally had to wait until Charles died.

Did you even WATCH R2? Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally. Nunnally resisted his Geass for the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AS EUPHEMIA! So, once again, you can stop comparing the two and stop swooning over Euphemia because she resisted the Geass. Nunnally did the EXACT same thing.

I am not saying that you can't be a fan of Euphemia (although, you need to calm down with your fandom if you want to be taken seriously). However, if you are going to defend her, and want to have your claims taken seriously, you need to do some research on the character and the series. I mean, did you even watch R2 or did you just forget that Lelouch used his Geass on his sister?

If it seems that I am uninterested in Euphemia, its because I'm not. I have seen every Gundam series, read every book and seen every movie and OVA and I am sorry to say that, as a character, nothing jumps out at me (since Code Geass is Sunrise's first non-Gundam mech series, comparing the two happens a lot). Sunrise and Bandai seem to have templates for characters and they have been doing this for over 30 years. A pacifistic princess? I can name about 6 of those in the Gundam series alone, so Sunrise repeating this pattern in Code Geass with Euphemia does not surprise me nor does it pique my interest.

Sunrise hasn't let Gundam die, so they are certainly not going to let Code Geass die. This is an over 30 year trend that I am surprised a lot of people haven't picked up on.:rolleyes:

Luluko
07-30-2009, 05:02 PM
since Code Geass is Sunrise's first non-Gundam mech series

Eh, no. They also did Armored Trooper Votoms, The Vision of Escaflowne, Ideon and Sora Kake Girl. They're all mecha as well.

proEuphie
07-30-2009, 10:08 PM
The Britannians wouldn't have stopped the massacre. "Hey, the Japanese captured our Princess... GET THEM!" And we all know that Cornelia would've been on the first row of the killing spree.


What! You claim that the Britannians didn't love members of the Imperial family enough to stop a massacre once it was started? Even to save the person who gave the order, who might be assumed to want to change her order to save herself? They must be like sharks in a feeding frenzy in your opinion. Remember that Lelouch and Nunnally were sent to Japan as hostages and were presumed killed when Britannia attacked. The Britannians would certainly assume that Euphie would be killed if they kept on attacking once she was a hostage.

And Cornelia would not do anything to endanger Euphemia. Remember "Black Knight"? When Cornelia refused to attack the hotel where Euphemia was held hostage? When Lelouch thought that Euphemia was Cornelia's weakness, a weakness which he senselessly threw away by killing her in episode 23. If a live Euphie was tied to the front of the Gawain, the most powerful Back Knight weapon, Suzaku would not attack it or let anyone else attack it and Cornelia would forbid attacking it.



Geez, you love Euphemia enough to be alright with locking her up like a lunatic. Didn't you say on another post that you loved her and admired her because she was a good person and did good things. I don't know, but her locked up like a mental patient would totally stop her from doing "good things for others", ergo, she wouldn't be the Euphie you love anymore =(


What! you claim that Euphie would stop being Euphie when she was locked up and her activities were restricted? You claim that a person's identity is not the result of the structure of her brain but of the social circumstances she finds herself in? If your theory was true we could let Charles Manson go free because he no longer is the same person he was before being imprisoned for forty years, and he has now somehow become innocent.

And who says that Euphie could no longer do good after being locked up in a prison or or mental asylum? Wouldn't she be making life seem worth living for the staff and inmates of her institution? Don't they have the right to have their lives brightened by Euphie's presence? Do you think that it is impossible for any inmate to do good for the other inmates? Especially if she might possibly be very, very, rich?

And Euphemia could possibly do more good for the outside world while locked up than Charles, VV, Lelouch, Schneitzel, Suzaku, Nunnally, Tianzi, and all the rest could have done free and at the height of their power simultaneously, merely by writing books and articles, because she cares about doing good more than all the others combined. Of course her editors could have a big job taking out all the examples of "Nihon dilando est" she writes when the urge to kill Japanese overpowers her for a while, but it could be very worthwhile for mankind to do so.

And if Euphemia is rich, she might be able to direct from her institution businesses and charitable organizations which did a lot of good for the world, though no doubt the Japanese would be afraid to let any organization of hers operate in Japan.



CC can't break a Geass command. VV can't do it either. Geass represents itself like the power that individual would manifest. CC didn't know that Lelouch's power was going to be 'control people', just like VV didn't know that Jeremiah's Geass had the power to cancel other Geass until he gave it to him.

I don't think I should say this, but I will in case you come up with the: VV should have made Jeremiah use his anti-Geass on Euphemia: Jeremiah got his Geass way after Euphemia died.


I believe that in the first episode of R2 CC undid a forgetfulness geass that Charles placed on Lelouch. Worlfgirl90 explained in one of her posts that CC could not undo the geass Lelouch placed on Euphie and that she could only undo the geass that Charles placed on Lelouch because Charles got his geass power from VV. And I immediately responded that meant that VV would be perfectly able to undo the geass command that Lelouch placed on Euphemia.

So you think that there would be no point in locking up Euphie in the hope that there might someday be a cure for her geass command?

I suppose you would say that Iqbal Masih, a Pakistani boy who was sold into slavery (I mean became a bonded laborer in a carpet factory) at the age of four should have died at the age of four instead of slaving in the factory for six long years until being freed and having only two short years of blessed freedom left before being assassinated. You would claim his future would have been too bleak with six long years of working twelve hour days and only two years of freedom after that.

But he might have preferred to live until the age of twelve instead of dying at four, and I think that most of the hundreds or thousands of other child slaves (I mean bonded laborers) he helped to free would say that it was better that he lived to be twelve instead of dying at four, better that he had only two short years of freedom after being released than no time of freedom at all.

And what do you think Dr. Otto Habsburg, long-time head of the Habsburg Dynasty, would think about this hypothetical question? Suppose that instead of being exiled from Austria in 1918 he was given the choice of being executed or imprisoned? Would he think that it would have been better for him to be executed in 1918 or imprisoned for forty or fifty or sixty years until 1958 to 1978, and then have only about thirty or forty or fifty years of freedom left until now? A person could be imprisoned for many decades and still have many decades of freedom left.

And yet you seem to think that it would have been foolish to lock up Euphie in the hope that a cure might be found some time in the future, when a cure actually did appear only a year later. One stinking, lousy little year later.



You didn't pay attention while watching R2, right? VV was Charles's twin brother. He was a Prince and was being protected by the Emperor of Britannia. And even if Charles gave the throne to some one else, he had The Cult. It's safe to say VV had a lot of resources, so being poor wasn't something to be preoccupied with.


I gave up watching Code Geass when Euphie was murdered, due to the severe lack of characters good enough to identify with or care about. What kind of security is there in being the brother of the emperor, who in fact was killed only a year later, or being the head of the geass cult when I believe VV took the position away from CC and so should have lived in fear of having it taken away from him? Please explain what kind of legal job someone with VV's experience and appearance could get if he lost all his money due to a stock market crash or one or two revolutions? VV should have been paranoid about having his assets confiscated in some kind of revolution and so should have had countless secret investment funds and been constantly eager to find more money for them.

And I believe that VV murdered Marianne seven years before season one, and in R2 Charles took the geass code for immortality away from VV in revenge, and VV died soon after (though not of old age, since Charles seemed much too healthy at the same age). If VV suspected that Charles wanted revenge on him he would certainly fear that Charles might cut off his money and would want to beef up his secret investment accounts as much as he could, especially if he feared he might have to go into hiding.



She was under the control of the Geass. She was firing at random Japanese before Lelouch found her. She even tried to battle Kallen in a KF, though of course that was a lost cause since Euphie can be said to be an average pilot at best. And what did she care if two Knightmares were towering over
her, she just wanted to kill the Eleven's thanks to the Geass.

You say that Euphemia tried to fight Kallen? Perhaps you should check my post # 69 in the forum "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and maybe change your mind.



No, she didn't. And that was the point. This whole thing with Euphemia was meant to be a sad plot device to make the story move further. Although you love Euphemia, she was never meant to be the leading girl or have a happy ending. It sucks (though not for me), but deal with it. The creators of Code Geass made this final, their purpose never was to make her the Harry Potter equivalent.


Enter response



I know I shouldn't have done this, but oh God...*head/desk*

wolfgirl90
07-30-2009, 10:13 PM
Eh, no. They also did Armored Trooper Votoms, The Vision of Escaflowne, Ideon and Sora Kake Girl. They're all mecha as well.

I should have clarified. Code Geass is the first non-Gundam anime for Sunrise as it is organized now, not overall...I could never forget Escaflowne.:p

Luluko
07-31-2009, 01:03 AM
You know you can just write the whole reply instead of editing your comment for each part, right?


What! You claim that the Britannians didn't love members of the Imperial family enough to stop a massacre once it was started? Even to save the person who gave the order, who might be assumed to want to change her order to save herself? They must be like sharks in a feeding frenzy in your opinion. Remember that Lelouch and Nunnally were sent to Japan as hostages and were presumed killed when Britannia attacked. The Britannians would certainly assume that Euphie would be killed if they kept on attacking once she was a hostage.

And Cornelia would not do anything to endanger Euphemia. Remember "Black Knight"? When Cornelia refused to attack the hotel where Euphemia was held hostage? When Lelouch thought that Euphemia was Cornelia's weakness, a weakness which he senselessly threw away by killing her in episode 23. If a live Euphie was tied to the front of the Gawain, the most powerful Back Knight weapon, Suzaku would not attack it or let anyone else attack it and Cornelia would forbid attacking it.

I'm not claiming, is a fact. Euphemia wasn't respected as a Princess or as a Viceroy, she was consideres a doll. Just like Odysseus. The army only had to follow her command because she was a Princess, not because she had their respect like Cornelia or Schneizel.

Also, you're playing to hard the card of Cornelia loving Euphie. Above being her sister, Cornelia was the Gobernor General of Area 11, she had resposabilities as a commander, even though she didn't want Euphemia to suffer. In R1 she was afraid of acting, but knew she had to do something, hence Suzaku being on stand by to attack the building. This is the same case scenario: if the Japanese took Princess Euphemia as hostage, she would have to act. If she failed, the Emperor would make other take charge and attack anyway since they couldn't lose control of Area 11 at that time.

And lets keep in mind that Britannians thought that Lelouch and Nunnally where murdered by the Japanese. Thinking that the same was going to happen to Euphemia is not so farfetched. More wood to the fire, no peaceful resolution of trading the hostages here.



What! you claim that Euphie would stop being Euphie when she was locked up and her activities were restricted? You claim that a person's identity is not the result of the structure of her brain but of the social circumstances she finds herself in? If your theory was true we could let Charles Manson go free because he no longer is the same person he was before being imprisoned for forty years, and he has now somehow become innocent.

And who says that Euphie could no longer do good after being locked up in a prison or or mental asylum? Wouldn't she be making life seem worth living for the staff and inmates of her institution? Don't they have the right to have their lives brightened by Euphie's presence? Do you think that it is impossible for any inmate to do good for the other inmates? Especially if she might possibly be very, very, rich?

And Euphemia could possibly do more good while locked up than Charles, VV, Lelouch, Schneitzel, Suzaku, Nunnally, Tianzi, and all the rest could have done free and at the height of their power simultaneously, merely by writing books and articles, because she cares about doing good more than all the others combined. Of course her editors could have a big job taking out all the examples of "Nihon dilando est" she writes when the urge to kill Japanese overpowers her for a while, but it could be very worthwhile for mankind to do so.

Again, Euphemia was not popular in court. People didn't care about her.

Another thing, the extra material released of R1 stated that by the time the SAZ was approved, Euphemia was no longer a Princess of Britannia. She traded her title so Zero could be forgiven. She was not going to be treated like a special cookie anymore, so down to the mental asylum with her, and those are not nice places to be. With all the drug they give you so you can behave, you start looking like a soulless being.

Of course she wouldn't be the same person, try being locked away from society and see how well that works out.



I believe that in the first episode of R2 CC undid a forgetfulness geass that Charles placed on Lelouch. Worlfgirl90 explained in one of her posts that CC could not undo the geass Lelouch placed on Euphie and that she could only undo the geass that Charles placed on Lelouch because Charles got his geass power from VV. And I immediately responded that meant that VV would be perfectly able to undo the geass command that Lelouch placed on Euphemia.

She didn't undid Charless Geass, that's just fans speculations again. CC is able to enter the minds of people she has contracts or who are strong candidates for Geass, not just anyperson. Charles's Geass is to rewrite memories, but it doesn't erase them, CC just had to get in there and tap the right place. But it wouldn't have worked with Euphie: she would have said something before Lelouch went all 'I have to kill Euphie'.


So you think that there would be no point in locking up Euphie in the hope that there might someday be a cure for her geass command?

I suppose you would say that Iqbal Masih, a Pakistani boy who was sold into slavery (I mean became a bonded laborer in a carpet factory) at the age of four should have died at the age of four instead of slaving in the factory for six long years until being freed and having only two short years of blessed freedom left before being assassinated. You would claim his future would have been too bleak with six long years of working twelve hour days and only two years of freedom after that.

But he might have preferred to live until the age of twelve instead of dying at four, and I think that most of the hundreds or thousands of other child slaves (I mean bonded laborers) he helped to free would say that it was better that he lived to be twelve instead of dying at four.

And what do you think Dr. Otto Habsburg, long-time head of the Habsburg Dynasty, would think about this hypothetical question? Suppose that instead of being exiled from Austria in 1918 he was given the choice of being executed or imprisoned? Would he think that it would have been better for him to be executed in 1918 or imprisoned for forty or fifty or sixty years until 1958 to 1978, and then have only about thirty or forty or fifty years of freedom left until now? A person could be imprisoned for many decades and still have many decades of freedom left.

You think that mentioning all those people makes your post look smart and deep, but you're wrong. Have in mind that none of them were affected BY MAGIC GLOWING EYES.


And yet you seem to think that it would have been foolish to lock up Euphie in the hope that a cure might be found some time in the future, when a cure actually did appear only a year later. One stinking, lousy little year later.

B'aaaaw, cry harder. As I said, Euphemia was just a plot device, a tool to move the story. Nothing more, nothing less.



I gave up watching Code Geass when Euphie was murdered, due to the severe lack of characters good enough to identify with or care about. What kind of security is there in being the brother of the emperor, who in fact was killed only a year later, or being the head of the geass cult when I believe VV took the position away from CC and so should have lived in fear of having it taken away from him? Please explain what kind of legal job someone with VV's experience and appearance could get if he lost all his money due to a stock market crash or one or two revolutions? VV should have been paranoid about having his assets confiscated in some kind of revolution and so should have had countless secret investment funds and been constantly eager to find more money for them.

As you said, you stopped watching during the first season, so you don't know about the Ragnarok plan Charles and VV had, it was all about merging into one being a la End of Evangelion. So please stop assuming things that you don't know about, VV wasn't thinking about his assets at all.



You say that Euphemia tried to fight Kallen? Perhaps you should check my post # 69 in the forum "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and maybe change your mind.

No need, I actually know what I'm talking about. She encountered Kallen while in a KF and went: 'You're japanese too, right?'. Her intention was to engage in battle, but she was using a rather old model compared to the Guren and was easily disarmed.

I'll edit this once I read the final response to your rant.

Edit: Going out for the weekend. I expect a XBOX HUGE wall of text as an answer, which I'll see on Sunday when I get back.

IcePriestess
07-31-2009, 03:59 AM
I totally agree with Luluko. ProEuphie you just need to not take this too personally. YOU ARE NOT EUPHEMIA and you do not need to be her lawyer. You are coming up with things that didn't even happen in series and you claim them to be true. I'm totally against it. And I'll repeat once again as I said before:
EUPHEMIA DID NOT ESCAPE THE GEASS BEFORE SHE WAS SHOT,BECAUSE SHE SLAUGHTERED ALL THE JAPANESE THAT SHE FOUND.

blackrosetwilight
07-31-2009, 06:53 AM
see my post # 31 Euphemia's not a Lacus Clone.

And see my post # 45.

Once Lelouch destroyed her nightmare and Euphie crawled out of the wreckage, Lelouch could have instantly blasted her with one of his big guns or picked her up in the hand of his nightmare to capture her. Lelouch could have destroyed her nightmare by blasting it with one of the big guns, which would have killed her instantly, instead of slicing it apart. He could have killed her or captured her before he did kill her.

Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her. After her nightmare was destroyed Euphemia was totally helpless to kill anyone until Lelouch and Co. let her pick up and keep a machine gun.

Lelouch did not kill Euphemia because he was in a hurry to get back to commanding the fight against the Britannians at Fuji and then start planning the next steps in the Black Rebellion. If there were any Britannians still fighting and massacring at Fuji capturing Euphemia and using her as a hostage would be the best way to stop the fighting as fast as possible.

If there were any Japanese people in front of Euphie and behind the nightmares the geass command would have made Euphie mow them down instead of wasting her bullets on the nightmares. Unless at that point Euphie was only pretending to the geass command that she was doing her best to kill as many Japanese as possible but was actually trying to kill as few as possible. If there were any Japanese people in front of Lelouch and behind Euphie Lelouch would have deliberately condemmed them to death when he walked past Euphie and made it almost certain that she would turn around to look at him as he walked away with his back to her, confident that she wouldn't shoot him.

So it is almost certain that there were no Japanese around to be endangered by Euphemia or to be witnesses. Even if Lelouch wanted to claim the glory of killing her he could have secretly captured her and then claimed to have killed her, asking CC and commanding Kallen to back him up.
As I recall most of the japanese fled already and the rest were already dead or were hiding, also you make it as is Lelouch wanted to kill her, Eupy is just as important as Suzaku, Shirley, Nunally, and is classmates are to Lelouch and would have "INDEED" tried to find another way if he was given time to. However the unexpected lost of control of his geass put him into a very emotionaly stress and unstable state impairing his judgement, that and the dying japanese asking him to save them and knowing that everything that happened to that point was indeed his fualt and as stated before at the time no one not even Lelouch knew that geass can be undone at the time. All factored into making lelouch shoot euphy

proEuphie
07-31-2009, 10:35 PM
You know you can just write the whole reply instead of editing your comment for each part, right?


But other people have complained about my long uninterrupted texts.


You say that Euphemia tried to fight Kallen? Perhaps you should check my post # 69 in the forum "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and maybe change your mind.



No need, I actually know what I'm talking about. She encountered Kallen while in a KF and went: 'You're japanese too, right?'. Her intention was to engage in battle, but she was using a rather old model compared to the Guren and was easily disarmed.

I'll edit this once I read the final response to your rant.

Edit: Going out for the weekend. I expect a XBOX HUGE wall of text as an answer, which I'll see on Sunday when I get back.

Well, in my copy of episode 23 Kallen bumps into Euphemia and Euphie says something like "Are you Japanese? How dare you attack Princess Euphemia?" And Kallen says something like: "Aha! I found you!" (pleased at her clever detective work, no doubt) And Euphemia says something like "You're the girl from the Island", recognizing Kallen's voice (and not sounding very angry, despite Kallen shooting a machine gun at her the last time they met, instead sounding pleased to meet someone she encountered before) And then Kallen prepares to attack and says something like "I got you now!" and Lelouch interrupts.

I don't see anything in this to give much clue about what Euphie plans to do about Kallen, a Black Knight who looks like a Britannian, and no hint that Euphie intends to fight her as you claim.

Euphemia later apologized to Lelouch/Zero for harmlessly shooting a machine gun at his armored nightmare when she thought it had a Japanese pilot. That leaves two possibilities:

1) Euphie would not have shot a dinky little hand-held machine gun at Kallen's nightmare, let alone done anything more likely to harm it and the pilot, once she recognized Kallen as a girl who did not look like a Japanese and thus was not covered by the geass command.

2) Euphemia would have attacked Kallen's nightmare but was sorry for harmlessly shooting a machine gun at Zero's nightmare just a few minutes later, and so the geass command was rapidly losing its power to control her in those few minutes.

Either possibility is evidence against your general argument.

Look at your copy of the episode, and refresh your memory, then read my post # 69 in "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and then think about whether you want to change your statement.

P.S. The bit about Euphemia's older model nightmare being easily disarmed indicates that you might possibly be implying that Kallen disarmed Euphie's nightmare. If so you really need to watch the episode again.

proEuphie
07-31-2009, 11:20 PM
As I recall most of the japanese fled already and the rest were already dead or were hiding, also you make it as is Lelouch wanted to kill her, Eupy is just as important as Suzaku, Shirley, Nunally, and is classmates are to Lelouch and would have "INDEED" tried to find another way if he was given time to. However the unexpected lost of control of his geass put him into a very emotionaly stress and unstable state impairing his judgement, that and the dying japanese asking him to save them and knowing that everything that happened to that point was indeed his fualt and as stated before at the time no one not even Lelouch knew that geass can be undone at the time. All factored into making lelouch shoot euphy

If you say that there were no Japanese around when Lelouch shot Euphie, you are admitting that he could not possibly be hurried by the danger to those Japanese who were not there. And since capturing the enemy commander and using him as a hostage is usually a good way to stop a battle, Lelouch could not have killed the enemy commander Euphie because he was in a hurry to stop wasting time with her and get back to saving the Japanese. A live Euphie would be very useful for saving the Japanese.

Lelouch could have killed or captured Euphemia before he did kill her. If he was in a hurry he wasted some time, which could only be justified by taking the extra time to capture her alive.

Lelouch let Euphemia pick up and keep a machine gun and then got out of his armored nightmare and walked up to her, confident She wouldn't shoot him. If he was confident she wouldn't shoot him he should have known that it would be easy to make her is prisoner and then she would not be dangerous to anyone.

And Lelouch probably did want to kill Euphie many times in the years since he swore to destroy Britannia. He probably intended to kill her when he pulled a gun on her in "Black Knight' and "Island of the Gods" but changed his mind at the last second.

Lelouch came to the meeting with Euphie planning to make her shoot him and start his revolution. If he wanted her to survive he would have had a plan to save her and he could have quickly adapted that plan to giving her the massacre order. Since he didn't, Lelouch probably intended to kill Euphie right up to the moment he agreed to support the SAZ plan. And he went back to the previous plan of killing her just minutes after he was laughing and joking with her. I guess being supposedly the person Lelouch loves second best isn't a very big deal.

Kallen prepared to knife one or more of the student council members when she feared her terrorist identity was known. But in Episode 23, just weeks or months after meeting them, and even less after being prepared to kill at least one of them, she thought that she hoped they got away to safety. But Lelouch thought that with the Black knights at Ashford, Nunnally would be safe. He didn't think about the safety of Milly, Rivalez, or even Shirley, who he had known for years, as much as someone who had recently been prepared to kill at least one of them. Saying that Lelouch cared about Euphemia as much as Shirley or Milly or Suzaku isn't claiming much about his feelings for her.

In one of her posts wolfgirl90 says that at one point Lelouch was even willing to kill Nunnally. If true that makes a lie of the statement that Lelouch did everything for Nunnally's sake, and indicates he cared more about his crazy plan than any person.

blackrosetwilight
08-01-2009, 08:39 AM
If you say that there were no Japanese around when Lelouch shot Euphie, you are admitting that he could not possibly be hurried by the danger to those Japanese who were not there.
What are talking about? I never said there was no Japanese and the reason why lelouch couldnt stop euphy from getting a gun or getting into a Knightmare Frame is becuase there were other soldier under euphys command to kill all japaneses who would've shot at Lelouch and for all the soldiers knew Zero was the Hero of the Japanese so he must've been a Japanese, though he wasnt(duh).

IcePriestess
08-01-2009, 11:12 AM
1) Lelouch could not have killed the enemy commander Euphie because he was in a hurry to stop wasting time with her and get back to saving the Japanese A live Euphie would be very useful for saving the Japanese..

2) Lelouch could have killed or captured Euphemia before he did kill her. If he was in a hurry he wasted some time, which could only be justified by taking the extra time to capture her alive.

-----
3) And Lelouch probably did want to kill Euphie many times in the years since he swore to destroy Britannia. He probably intended to kill her when he pulled a gun on her in "Black Knight' and "Island of the Gods" but changed his mind at the last second.

4) Lelouch was even willing to kill Nunnally. If true that makes a lie of the statement that Lelouch did everything for Nunnally's sake, and indicates he cared more about his crazy plan than any person.

1) A live Euphie would be useful? Are you kidding? She was slaughtering Japanese and if Lelouch would have left her alone, what could have happened? And Lelouch wasn't in hurry. Actually Lelouch doesn't care about Japanese at all.(well maybe not at all, but the thing he cared is not that they died, but that Euphie slaughtered them.)

2) Capture her alive? Do you understand that you are insane talking like this? Lelouch didn't capture her alive, because she slaughtered japanese, and if he would have captured her, Black Knights wouldn't have forgiven Lelouch for not killing her and they would have killed them, even if Zero said them to not do that. Plus Kallen was here. She saw everything and would have told the Black Knights. And she also wanted revenge for JApanese.

3) He didn't change his mind on the last second... He just didn't want to kill her, because he LOVED her. He wanted to avoid killing her, and even if Euphie didn't find out his identify, he would have kept her as a hostage, at Kaminejima for example. He pulled a gun on her, just to make her think He would kill her!

4) Watch R2 before talking OK? In R1 Lelouch left everything and everyone for Nunally's sake, but in R2 Nunally has become his enemy and Lelouch decided: I wouldn't fight for only Nunally anymore, I would fight for all people. And you don't know anything about how Charles ended up right? Lelouch already achieved everything he wanted and he even sacrificied his life for people of the world. And You really think that Lelouch cared only about his crazy plan? If he would have cared only about that, he wouldn't have sacrificied his life.*sobs* IF you DO THINK HE CARED ONLY ABOUT THAT, YOU ARE REALLY CRAZY.

Sorry if this is long to read, but I don't think it's that long compared to the Bible you have written :p

proEuphie
08-01-2009, 02:24 PM
I totally agree with Luluko. ProEuphie you just need to not take this too personally. YOU ARE NOT EUPHEMIA and you do not need to be her lawyer. You are coming up with things that didn't even happen in series and you claim them to be true. I'm totally against it. And I'll repeat once again as I said before:
EUPHEMIA DID NOT ESCAPE THE GEASS BEFORE SHE WAS SHOT,BECAUSE SHE SLAUGHTERED ALL THE JAPANESE THAT SHE FOUND.

I can't help taking it personally. I can't help thinking about it all the time, so I might has well try to point out to Code Geass fans that Lelouch killed someone he didn't need to kill or have any reason to kill, that he murdered Euphemia.

And sometimes I may remember things a little differently than they actually happened, That happens to a lot of people discussing movies, tv, and fiction when they rely on their memory too much. You should see my post # 62 above, and then go to the post it refers to, # 69 in the thread "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" which is kind of funny, I think.

People have even misunderstood my posts when responding to them, though they could have simply glanced back at those posts to see what they said. I once wrote that something was never mandatory and people responded as though I wrote that it was never permissible. And see posts # 61, 63, 64, and 67 in this thread.

Euphemia slaughtered all the Japanese she found until she stopped. She tried to slaughter Japanese when she shot at a crowd of fleeing fugitives, and we didn't see what happened to them. She tried to slaughter Japanese when she wasted bullets shooting at the two nightmares.

But Euphemia did not show any awareness of her geass command after she apologized for shooting at Lelouch's nightmare thinking that it was occupied by Japanese.

If she was still controlled by the geass command after that she should have run off to find more victims to shoot, now that she realized that the nightmares were not occupied by Japanese.

Euphemia saw two nightmares right in front of her. She remembered that one of them was piloted by a girl who she remembered as a Britannian Black Knight, and the other one was Lelouch/Zero's. Euphemia knew that Zero was the leader of the Black Knight rebels whose power threatened to topple the Britannian government in Japan.

So the geass command should have known that Zero's presence with another Black knight nightmare was important. Zero was the protector of the Japanese. He had a vast potential to help or hinder the task of killing the Japanese.

So the geass command should have made Euphemia try to find out what Zero intended to do and then perhaps influence those intentions.

Maybe the geass command couldn't think that intelligently. But it was smart enough to make Euphemia give orders like "kill all the Japanese". So it should have been smart enough to make her ask Zero, who was walking toward her just a few feet away, for help in killing the Japanese.

Instead Euphemia asked Zero for his help in administering the SAZ, and then frowned and said "no, that isn't right." She didn't remember the massacre at all, except as a dim notion that the plan for the SAZ had been changed.

That seems like proof that she was coming out of the control of the geass command and forgetting what she did while she was controlled by it.

After that Euphemia just stood around and did nothing, probably trying to figure out what was happening.

The clock was ticking. If her command was to kill all the Japaenese everywhere, Euphemia had to kill them faster than new Japanese babies were being born, which meant killing at least one Japanese person, and probably several, per minute. But she just stood around without doing anything to kill more Japanese. it certainly seems like she wasn't obeying or aware of the geass command any more.

Of course if the creators of Code Geass had shown a few Japanese people walking right in front of Euphie without her trying to kill them the fact that she had escaped from the control of the geass would have been more apparent to the audience. But they probably figured that they didn't need to draw Euphie carrying a sign saying "I'm not controlled by the geass anymore" to make it apparant.

proEuphie
08-01-2009, 03:34 PM
What are talking about? I never said there was no Japanese and the reason why lelouch couldnt stop euphy from getting a gun or getting into a Knightmare Frame is becuase there were other soldier under euphys command to kill all japaneses who would've shot at Lelouch and for all the soldiers knew Zero was the Hero of the Japanese so he must've been a Japanese, though he wasnt(duh).

You seem to be discussing episode 22 when the massacre began. I was discussing episode 23, when Lelouch found Euphemia. There were no Britannian soldiers around in episode 23 when Leleouch let Euphie pick up and keep a machine gun that was lying on the ground. So Lelouch CC, and Kallen should have been able to stop Euphie from picking up the gun or to take it away from her with ease. But they did not lift a giant robot finger to do so, and so did not care about protecting the lives of any Japanese people who might have been in sight at the time.

Anyway, I thought we agreed that there were no Japanese people around in episode 23 when Lelouch found Euphie. Thus in episode 23 Lelouch was not rushed to save the lives of Japanese people who were not present, and did not have to make a split second decision. Lelouch could take his time to make the right decision. Lelouch did take his time and made the wrong decision.

.

proEuphie
08-01-2009, 04:37 PM
She WAS aware of the command after she saw Lelouch. Remember when she was talking to Lelouch about the SAZ and helping Japan, but said "Wait, Japan?" Her initial plans (helping the Japanese with the SAZ) were in complete contradiction of the command that has been given to her.

It is good to hear from you again. But you should really be careful what you say and how you say it. When talking to Lelouch Euphemia invited him to help her with the SAZ and then frowned and said "no, that's not right" She remembered that something had changed but she didn't remember what. If she was clearly aware of the massacre either Euphie or the geass command would have done something about the possible interference or assistance that Zero could offer.

This quote from my post # 66 should warn you to be careful about relying on your memory:

"And sometimes I may remember things a little differently than they actually happened, That happens to a lot of people discussing movies, tv, and fiction when they rely on their memory too much. You should see my post # 62 above, and then go to the post it refers to, # 69 in the thread "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" which is kind of funny, I think.

People have even misunderstood my posts when responding to them, though they could have simply glanced back at those posts to see what they said. I once wrote that something was never mandatory and people responded as though I wrote that it was never permissible. And see posts # 61, 63, 64, and 67 in this thread."



As I have already pointed out to you multiple times, she stopped firing because Lelouch, her dear half-brother, was talking to her. The Geass does not change one's personality nor are one's memories tampered with until AFTER the Geass has worn off.

She stopped firing at Lelouch's nightmare when she recognized Lelouch/Zero. Lelouch did not talk to her before shooting her, I think. But why did the geass command let her talk about the SAZ instead of making her ask for Zero's help? Why did it let her just stand around thinking instead of making her run off to look for more victims? If it controlled her why didn't make her do something to kill more Japanese people while more more Japanese babies were being born every minute?


Oh, the assumptions you make. And I guess I am supposed to buy that?

response



First, that is over analyzing what is going on. The red circles appear in someone's eyes when ever the Geass is influencing them. Simple as that. Euphemia had red eyes when she was first resisting and then when she was completely controlled. Because of this, its rather futile to try and analyze HOW MUCH the Geass is controlling the person based on their eyes. However, since the red eyes are an indicator that the person is being controlled, the fact that Euphemia STILL had red eyes mean she DID NOT break the Geass before she was shot. You answered your own question again.

You wrote that the red circles appear when a person is being influenced by the geass, not when the person is being controlled by the geass. If the red circles appear whenever the geass is operating on a person's mind, controlling him or trying to control him, then their presence is proof that the geass either controls his actions or is trying to control his actions. Then you later write about the red circles being present when a person is being controlled by the geass, which is a different meaning a subset of the previous meaning.

When Euphemia was being taken over by the geass she struggled and after seconds she turned around and when she turned her face back into view there were red circles around her eyes, and then she started to obey the command within a few seconds. So in that case , like most cases, the appearance of the red circles meant that obedience to the command, and thus 100 percent control of the person's actions, was at most just seconds away.

But in the next episode Euphemia was conscious in the sickbay when Suzaku asked her about the order, and she didn't remember it. Then, after a time, the red circles appeared in her eyes,and she was quiet for a time, and then she asked if Suzaku was Japanese and struggled against the geass. And then she was quiet and peaceful for a time and then the red circles faded away. Euphemia was quiet for most of the time that the red circles were in her eyes.

In the first case Euphemia became aware of the geass trying to take her over and struggled against it before the red eyes appeared In the second case the red circles appeared before Euphemia became aware of the geass trying to make her kill and began to struggle against it. The difference may be due to the fact that in the second case it was the same gesss command trying to take back control and complete the task.

It looks like the geass command powered up, and when it reached a certain power level Euphie's eyes got the red circles, and when the power level was high enough Euphemia became aware of being pushed to kill and fought against it, and then the power levels declined until the red circles vanished and continued to decline. But the geass command was not even strong enough for Euphie to notice it and resist it for most of the time that the red circles were in her eyes.

So I deduce that the red circles appear in the eyes whenever the geass command has even a tiny fraction of full control over a person, which is usually just a second or so before the geass command takes total control of the person. And usually the red circles just vanish when someone dies or completes his task. But when Euphemia's' subconscious mind found a way to free her almost entirely from the geass command, the geass fought back and tried to regain control,and so the red circles remained in her eyes to show that the geass command still had a tiny fraction of control.

I say that Euphemia did free herself from the control of the geass command. I say she reduced it's control of her to about ten percent of the control it needed to make her do something. She reduced its control so low that she didn't even notice it's faint attempts to get her to act, let alone have any chance of being forced to do what it wanted. It was still there, still trying to get her to kill, but it was too weak for her even to notice it. She did free herself from it for all practical purposes.

I suppose you want the creators to remake the episode with a more obvious indication that Euphie escaped from the effective control of her geass command, such has having Japanese people walk right in front of Euphie without being shot, or maybe Euphie holding a sign saying "I'm not controlled by the geass any more" to satisfy you that she did escape from the geass.


Second, let me remind you that NUNNALLY RESISTED LELOUCH'S GEASS FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AS EUPHEMIA!!! So, you can stop praising Euphemia for this, now.:rolleyes:

I suppose that after Nunnally broke her blindness geass she she was vulnerable to Lelouch's geass, now that she could see. So Leoluch at some point late in the series gave her a command to do or not do something. You say that Nunnally resisted for the same amount of time that Euphemia did. I suppose you used a stop watch to time them and were able to determine when the resistance began and ended in each case.

As you should remember, I praised Euphemia for almost totally breaking her command geass in probably under an hour, while it is possible that Nunnally's subconscious mind struggled for eight years to break her forget-that-you-can-see geass. Thus Euphemia achieved almost total victory about ten thousand times faster than Nunnally's total victory (or was it total? Will Nunnally sometimes revert to forgetting that she can see when her geass regains the upper hand for a short time?). So I praised Euphemia for exceeding Nunnally's impressive feat by ten thousand times.

So if Lelouch gave Nunnally a geass command which Nunnally, like Euphemia, resisted at first, Nunnally should break that geass command in about ten thousand times as much time as it took Euphemia, or several years. Except that the purpose of the command probably vanished long before that, freeing Nunnally before her subconscious could begin the long, slow task of breaking the command geass.

Except that a geass command is probably much, much harder to break than Charles's forgetting geasses, so it would probably take Nunnally much longer than ten thousand times as long as Euphemia to break her command geass.

Some people speculate that Nunnally broke her geass because Charles, who gave it, died. That would mean that Nunnally's subconscious took about a month or so to weaken her geass until she broke it, making the time ratio between Euphemia and Nunnally much less impressive. But Euphemia almost totally defeated and broke her geass while Lelouch was still alive, and so that should compensate for the lesser time difference.


quote=wolfgirl90;2307361]Yes, but that is not the question, isn't? The question is "Did Euphemia escape the Geass BEFORE she was shot?" The answer is an apparent no.[/quote]

Yes she did, if escaping does not mean totally crushing and destroying the geass command, but escaping from its control, reducing it to a mere tempting whisper too faint for you to even hear, let alone obey. I say the geass command could no longer make Euphie do anything in the period before Lelouch shot her. She didn't even know that anything was trying to get her to kill.

She was free of it for all practical purposes, even if not totally free of it.


What are talking about? She WAS aware of the Geass command when the red circles were in her eyes when she was with Suzaku. "No! No! I mustn't think that way!"

She was resisting the whole time that the red circles were there. So your point is moot.

She was aware of the geass command for only part of the time that the red circles were in her eyes. After the circles appeared Euphie was quiet. After struggling with the geass command Euphie was quiet and peaceful for some time before the red circles went out. For most of the time that the red circles were in her eyes Euphie was not trying to kill Suzaku and not resisting the command, and so it must have been too faint and weak for her to even notice.




Euphemia had just been shot in the stomach. She was in an intensive care unit. She just came out of surgery. I think that qualifies as totally helpless, don't you? The girl could barely keep her eyes open. If your only evidence that she must have defeated the Geass (rather than the Geass simply fading away) is that she did not get up and kill Suzaku, slashed his throat with her thumbnail or used some superhuman death grip on him, then you need to fall back to reality and quickly. Killing him with a slash at his throat with her THUMBNAIL?! Yeah, calm down.

You should know by now that every time you claim that one of my arguments is flawed, I simply improve it and/or come up with a better one. I just (Aug 1, 2009, about 7 pm) thought of a really obvious way the geass command could certainly have made Euphie kill Suazku despite her weakened condition. I feel like such a dope for not thinking about it months ago. You know about that method too, so try to remember it before reading further.

In the meantime, here are two lesser methods.

1) I cut and file my fingernails about once a weak, and yet the corners of my thumbnails are so sharp that I use them to cut perforated paper. If Euphie placed her hand on Suzaku's shoulder or had him put it there, she could have made a quick slash with her thumb across his throat which might have cut the skin and possibly severed a vital artery, depending on how dangerous her nails are compared to mine.

2) Euphie could have asked for a kiss, and for Suzaku to give her some tongue, and then bitten as hard as she could on the tongue, perhaps biting off the tip and perhaps causing Suzaku to bleed to death.

And the really easy method of killing, which the geass command had made Euphie use before, would be to ask Suzaku to get the captain of the Avalon on the intercom and then order the captain to kill Suzaku and any other Japanese aboard and fire the Avalon's weapons at any ghettos they passed over.

How could the geass command simply give up trying to make Euphie kill when she was still strong enough to talk and give commands, when she still had her deadliest power? If the geass command could take control of Euphie, why would it give up before or after taking control, when Euphie was still strong enough to talk and thus kill more Japanese people?

I say the only explanation for the fact that Euphemia didn't order the deaths of Suzaku and other Japanese on her deathbed was that she defeated the geass command when it tried to take back control and that it never gained enough control to make her say what it wanted her to say.

Euphie managed to defeat and escape from her geass command after perhaps minutes of obeying it, and then when it tried to regain control she defeated it again within seconds, despite being so much weaker physically after being shot, and she would have continued to defeat the geass command each and every time it tried to make her kill.



On par. As I pointed out, both Euphemia and Nunnally were able to resist Lelouch's Geass and they resisted for the same amount of time. So, that point is, once again, moot.

I never said that Euphemia resisted her geass command from Lelouch longer than Nunnally did, since I never heard about Nunnally resisting a geass command from Lelouch until reading about it in your post on 07/31/09. I said that Euphemia who resisted her geass command from Lelouch while Nunnally is not known to have resisted her forgetfulness geass from Charles, would have broken her geass command much faster than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass. And I claimed that Euphemia did break her geass command about ten thousand times faster than than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass.

I claimed that Euphemia's superiority over Nunnally was in the speed of breaking the geass, not in the length of resisting a geass command.

SigmaSd claims in post 41 that even the gods could not escape Lelouch's geass commands. SigmaSd tries to prove that Euphie could not have escaped the geass command, even though there is very strong evidence that she did escape it, whether or not mere gods could. If the gods could escape from Lelouch's geass commands anywhere near as fast as Euphemia escaped from hers, Lelouch's plans would fail and the series would have a much different ending.

If the gods could not escape from Lelouch's geass command, Euphemia's eventual defeat of and escape from her geass command makes her not just super human, but super divine, greater than the gods themselves.

Possibly Nunnally is also greater than the gods, though still much less than Euphemia.



But she NEVER escaped the control of the Geass. You just answered your own question once again. Also, I think you have completely forgotten about when Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally, otherwise you wouldn't be making this claim over and over again.

Yes she did, if escaping does not mean totally crushing and destroying the geass command, but escaping from its control, reducing it to a mere tempting whisper too faint for you to even hear, let alone obey. I say the geass command could no longer make Euphie do anything in the period before Lelouch shot her. She didn't even know that anything was trying to get her to kill. But I suppose you demand more obvious evidence to convince you, like maybe Japanese people walking in front of Euphie without being shot, or perhaps Euphie holding a sign saying "I escaped from my geass command".

She was free of it for all practical purposes, even if not totally free of it.

And I didn't forget about Lelouch using his geass on Nunnally, since I never heard about it until reading you post yesterday. And it does not affect my argument.


Did you even WATCH R2? Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally. Nunnally resisted his Geass for the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AS EUPHEMIA! So, once again, you can stop comparing the two and stop swooning over Euphemia because she resisted the Geass. Nunnally did the EXACT same thing.

Why should I watch R2? I hear that episode 25 ends with a confrontation between Lelouch, Kallen, CC, Suzaku and VV, give or take a few characters, and that as the scene fades to black a shot is heard. So I guess a viewer could assume that at least one character was shot and perhaps that the bullet bounced around and killed the others present, which would be a fairly satisfactory ending if the series was considered to be a tragedy and that Lelouch's totally unjustified murder of Euphemia was planned to be Lelouch's fatal error which caused the final slaughter.

What would I see if I watched R2? Millions killed by the use of F.R.E.I.J.A., the geass directorate massacre, implausible plot elements, characters becoming more and more evil and treacherous, etc. etc. etc.

And instead of Lelouch possibly being killed by a shot from Suzaku as the scene goes to black, in swift vengeance and/or justice for his inexplicable murder of Euphie, we have Lelouch and hordes of other evil characters surviving for a whole more year and committing more and more crimes, with only a few of the evil characters getting killed, and not one of them after being sentenced to death for his crimes either, and finally Suzaku becoming Lelouch's follower and killing Lelouch only when Lelouch wants him to. If Suzaku still loved Euphemia, or cared about the good of the world, he would at least have whipped off Zero's costume at the end to reveal the costume of some new hero. Instead he let Lelouch's alter ego of Zero, which was just as guilty as the Emperor Lelouch, get all the praise and avoid all the blame for Lelouch's actions.

Why should anyone who cares about justice watch R2?

I never said that Euphemia resisted her geass command from Lelouch longer than Nunnally did, since I never heard about Nunnally resisting a geass command from Lelouch until reading about it in your post on 07/31/09. I said that Euphemia who resisted her geass command from Lelouch while Nunnally is not known to have resisted her forgetfulness geass from Charles, would have broken her geass command much faster than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass. And I claimed that Euphemia did break her geass command about ten thousand times faster than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass.

I claimed that Euphemia's superiority over Nunnally was in the speed of breaking the geass, not in the length of resisting a geass command.

SigmaSd claims in post 41 that even the gods could not escape Lelouch's geass commands. SigmaSd tries to prove that Euphie could not have escaped the geass command, even though there is very strong evidence that she did escape it, whether or not mere gods could. If the gods could escape from Lelouch's geass commands anywhere near as fast as Euphemia escaped from hers, Lelouch's plans would fail and the series would have a much different ending.

If the gods could not escape from Lelouch's geass command, Euphemia's eventual defeat of and escape from her geass command makes her not just super human, but super divine, greater than the gods themselves.

Possibly Nunnally is also greater than the gods, though still much less than Euphemia.


I am not saying that you can't be a fan of Euphemia (although, you need to calm down with your fandom if you want to be taken seriously). However, if you are going to defend her, and want to have your claims taken seriously, you need to do some research on the character and the series. I mean, did you even watch R2 or did you just forget that Lelouch used his Geass on his sister?

Remember I was not a fan of Euphemia until I saw Lelouch shoot her when she trusted him, when it would have been perfectly safe to capture her, when capturing her would have been just as good as killing her for any good purposes and goals Lelouch may have had.

You, wolfgirl90, claimed that because of the geass command Euphie had to be killed and not captured, that she would have been a constant menace to others and the geass command would have made her suffer terribly. Since it seemed obvious to me that Euphie was in a confused state between control by the geass command and her own personality when she talked to Lelouch before being shot, I started this thread to discuss the chance that Euphemia broke free of her geass before being shot by Lelouch.

And after all the words that have been written it seems pretty obvious to me that the geass command was not controlling Euphemia's actions after the moment she apologized for shooting at Lelouch's nightmare. And it should be accepted by anyone who doesn't demand utterly obvious evidence, such as Japanese people walking right in front of Euphie without being shot, or Euphie holding a sign saying she was now free of geass control.

And when you said there was no proof that Euphie could have obeyed the geass command and killed Suzaku in the sickbay, and thus the geass command probably realized she couldn't do anything and gave up trying to control her, I realized what everyone should have realized months ago, that Euphemia certainly was strong enough to kill Suzaku with a method that the geass command had made her use before. Therefore the geass command would not have given up trying to take control of her, therefore its failure to make Euphemia kill meant that she defeated and broke her geass command in the sickbay when it tried to regain control. Which is pretty close to proof that she had defeated her geass command earlier when talking to Lelouch, for those who want any more proof than already given.

And at the same time sigmaSd, trying to prove that Euphie could not possibly have defeated her geass, pointed out that the gods themselves did not resist or break their geass command from Lelouch.

So the net result that all my opponents have achieved in this thread is to show that Euphemia and Nunnally have done what even the gods couldn't do, and thus in at least one respect are not merely super human, but super divine as well. So it looks like what those who have argued against my position in this thread (which I only started because you, wolfgirl90, insisted that the geass command would control Euphemia for the rest of her life and thus she had to be killed) have achieved is to show that Euphemia is at least as great as my highest claims for her may have been.



If it seems that I am uninterested in Euphemia, its because I'm not. I have seen every Gundam series, read every book and seen every movie and OVA and I am sorry to say that, as a character, nothing jumps out at me (since Code Geass is Sunrise's first non-Gundam mech series, comparing the two happens a lot). Sunrise and Bandai seem to have templates for characters and they have been doing this for over 30 years. A pacifistic princess? I can name about 6 of those in the Gundam series alone, so Sunrise repeating this pattern in Code Geass with Euphemia does not surprise me nor does it pique my interest.

Well, I have read countless science fiction stories with brilliant protagonists, antagonists, and other characters, and the only thing which makes Lelouch stand out from most of them, even most of the villains, is his ruthlessness. What about Euphemia's super human and even super divine goodness and resistance to evil geass commands, now that my opponents have proven that she possess those qualities? Does that get your interest? What about someone who is adored by millions for reasons which have nothing to do with why she should be adored by them, and whose family probably mostly despise and sneer at her for the very qualities that make her so superior to everyone?


Sunrise hasn't let Gundam die, so they are certainly not going to let Code Geass die. This is an over 30 year trend that I am surprised a lot of people haven't picked up on.:rolleyes:

If so, I should write articles proving that their plan all along has been for Euphemia to come back to life and be the protagonist in the sequels.

IcePriestess
08-02-2009, 03:24 AM
ProEuphie, you can't claim that Euphemia is greater than gods do you? And to tell you: Lelouch's commands to gods were very short. They just did what he told them to and the geass worn off. About Nunally. He ordered her to hand him over the Key of Damocles. She resisted at first, but handed the key to Lelouch and the Geass worn off. Taking Euphemia. Her command was much more longer. So It wouldn't be suprise if she REsisted IT A LITTLE, but remember: She firstly started slaughtering Japanese when she went to the stage with gun and said: People, can you all die? Or something like that. So I think that if Nunally's or God's commands, that they must have acomplished would have been longer, maybe they would have resisted it.

blackrosetwilight
08-02-2009, 10:07 AM
ok proEuphy if what you say about Lelouch is true then why didnt he kill Suzaku? Seriously he was the biggest threat to Lelouch than Lacu... I mean Euphy ever was, I guess Lelouch must've spent all his friendship points on saving Suzaku and ran out of them when it came to Euphy LOL and she was both friend and family.

proEuphie
08-02-2009, 02:59 PM
ProEuphie, you can't claim that Euphemia is greater than gods do you? And to tell you: Lelouch's commands to gods were very short. They just did what he told them to and the geass worn off. About Nunally. He ordered her to hand him over the Key of Damocles. She resisted at first, but handed the key to Lelouch and the Geass worn off. Taking Euphemia. Her command was much more longer. So It wouldn't be suprise if she REsisted IT A LITTLE, but remember: She firstly started slaughtering Japanese when she went to the stage with gun and said: People, can you all die? Or something like that. So I think that if Nunally's or God's commands, that they must have acomplished would have been longer, maybe they would have resisted it.

Maybe.

I didn't set out to show that Euphie was greater than the gods. I simply showed that not only did she resist her command at first, but she eventually broke it so it could no longer control her. She did that first right before Lelouch shot her, and then again in the sickbay when the geass command tried to take over again.

Part of my post # 68 shows that there was a method of killing that Euphemia was still strong enough to use in the sickbay. Thus the geass did not abandon control of her because she was too weak to kill anymore. The geass knew that she was still strong enough to kill. The only possible explanation for her not killing is that she defeated her geass in the sickbay, and almost certainly she defeated it earlier, before Lelouch shot her.

It is very obvious. I kick myself for not thinking of it months ago. So think about it for a while and then check my post # 68.

SigmaSd pointed out that the gods could not resist Lelouch's geass command, in an attempt to show that it was impossible for Euphie to break hers. But the evidence that Euphie did break her geass command is clear to anyone who doesn't demand such overt evidence as Japanese people walking right in front of Euphie without being shot, or her carrying a sign saying "I am now free from the geass command". So SigmaSd has merely shown how great Nunnally's and Euphie's feats were when Nunnally broke a forgetting geass and Euphemia broke her geass command.

PS. I didn't see the second season. But unless Lelouch told the gods to kill themselves, or never bother humanity again, or forget about Lelouch, or something similar, they could have simply returned to earth and did whatever they wanted to Lelouch to punish him for daring to defy them. A "never return" or "forget about" command might possibly require constant obedience, and thus be similar to Euphie's "kill the Japanese" command. Euphie broke her command within less than an hour probably, and the gods did not break theirs for the rest of the series. Unless they were free to do whatever they wanted to Lelouch but just didn't bother for some reason.

P.P.S. And wouldn't gods have time travel abilities? Wouldn't Lelouch have to give them some geass they had to continually obey to keep them from using time travel to prevent him from giving them a geas command? The gods would seem certain to get back at Lelouch & co. for giving them a geass, unless Lelouch gave them some geass to leave him alone forever (perhaps cut from the episode for lack of time), or else they didn't care about the issue very much. But if they didn't care very much Lelouch could have simply asked them to do what he wanted without using the geass on them. Or maybe this was part of some elaborate plot to get Lelouch to give the gods a geass command to do something they wanted to do but couldn't for some reason (perhaps the even bigger gods wouldn't let them?). Thinking about that makes me even gladder I didn't watch R2.

proEuphie
08-02-2009, 03:47 PM
ok proEuphy if what you say about Lelouch is true then why didnt he kill Suzaku? Seriously he was the biggest threat to Lelouch than Lacu... I mean Euphy ever was, I guess Lelouch must've spent all his friendship points on saving Suzaku and ran out of them when it came to Euphy LOL and she was both friend and family.

So you assume that Lelouch would have killed Euphemia because she was a threat to his plans, and you ask why he didn't kill Suzaku who you think was a bigger threat to his plans.

I don't think that Lelouch killed Euphemia because she was a threat to his plans. Lelouch's other attackers and defenders may think they know why he killed Euphemia, but I have thought of dozens of reasons why Lelouch might have killed Euphemia (and that's not counting my Letterman-style list of silly reasons) but I don't claim to know if Lelouch killed her because of any one or combination of those reasons. His actual motives, unlike many of his possible motives, are a mystery to me.

wolfgirl90
08-02-2009, 07:08 PM
She stopped firing at Lelouch's nightmare when she recognized Lelouch/Zero. Lelouch did not talk to her before shooting her, I think. But why did the geass command let her talk about the SAZ instead of making her her ask for Zero's help? Why did it let her just stand around thinking instead of making her run off to look for more victims? If it controlled her why didn't make her do something to kill more Japanese people while more more Japanese babies were being born every minute?

Of course Lelouch was talking to Euphemia before he shot her; he was talking to her pretty much the whole time that he was there. As I have said before, one's personality is not changed while they are being controlled by the Geass and memories are not changed until after the Geass wears off. She did act with haste in trying to kill the Japanese but only when someone or something was trying to stop her from doing so (that is the case for everybody). At first, she just calmly asked the Japanese to "kindly kill themselves", an interesting request to make if you are in a hurry or being pressed to carry out something. She could have just skipped that and got right to killing, but Euphemia, being the polite person that she is, would ask first. She even stopped long enough to give detailed orders to her soldiers to kill the Japanese (again, an interesting action for one to take if they must act as if they are in a hurry).

When her gun jammed, she hurriedly picked up another (all the while saying "They [the Japanese] have to die"), since the gun was effectively stopping her from doing what she needed to do.

She didn't do anything when Lelouch showed up because he is her half-brother. They were close and they were even going to work on the SAZ together (until...well, you know). So, to her, Lelouch wasn't doing anything to stop her.


You wrote that the red circles appear when a person is being influenced by the geass, not when the person is being controlled by the geass. If the red circles appear whenever the geass is operating on a person's mind, controlling him or trying to control him, then their presence is proof that the geass either controls his actions or is trying to control his actions. Then you later write about the red circles being present when a person is being controlled by the geass, which is a different meaning.

Noooo...what I said was, the red circles are simply an indicator that the person in question is being influenced by the Geass, not HOW MUCH they are being influenced, since they appear when the person is being controlled and when the person is resisting. You deduced that the red circles appear when the Geass has a tiny fraction of control, not when they have total dominance. However, since they appear at all times while the person is being controlled (no matter how much they are being controlled), that point is moot. And because of that, Euphemia still having red eyes means that she was still being controlled by the Geass before Lelouch shot her, no matter how much control she might have been under at the time.

A kid ALMOST running away does not mean that he ran away. A prisoner ALMOST breaking out of jail does not mean that he got out. A slave ALMOST getting away does not mean that he escaped. So, Euphemia ALMOST escaping the Geass does not she that she broke it. Its all or nothing. IF she had ALMOST escaped the Geass, it means that she DIDN'T escape the Geass, which, again, is what you asked about. She either completely broke the control of the Geass or she didn't (in which case, she would still be controlled). Since red circles in the eyes means that she was still being controlled by the Geass (no matter how much control or resistance may have been there), she never escaped the Geass, especially since it popped back up again before she died.:rolleyes:


Euphemia was quiet for most of the time that the red circles were in her eyes.

No she was not. She was talking when the red circles started to appear and was STILL TALKING when they stayed:
"No! No! I mustn't think that way..."
And she was still talking when they went away.:rolleyes:


You say that Nunnally resisted for the same amount of time that Euphemia did. I suppose you used a stop watch to time them and were able to determine when the resistance began and ended in each case.

Its called a DVD timer. Every DVD player has one. Even YouTube videos have timers on them.

I counted the time from when they showed resistance (NOT when their eyes turned red, since, as I have said, red eyes do not show how much the person is being controlled or if they are resisting) to when they showed obedience to the given command. In each case, it was 15 seconds.


I never said that Euphemia resisted her geass command from Lelouch longer than Nunnally did, since I never heard about Nunnally resisting a geass command from Lelouch until reading about it in your post on 07/31/09. I said that Euphemia who resisted her geass command from Lelouch while Nunnally is not known to have resisted her forgetfulness geass from Charles, would have broken her geass command much faster than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass. And I claimed that Euphemia did break her geass command about ten thousand times faster than than Nunnally defeated her forgetfulness geass.

But that's the problem. You never saw R2, so therefore, you didn't know that Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally or that Nunnally resisted Lelouch's Geass and resisted it for the same amount of time that Euphemia did. The only thing that you knew was that Euphemia resisted the Geass "better" than Nunnally by "breaking it", a claim that really has no base, since, as I have pointed out numerous times, Euphemia never broke the Geass that was placed upon her. However, since you are missing almost half a series worth of information, you are at quite the disadvantage when it comes to arguing your points.

IcePriestess
08-03-2009, 03:08 AM
Maybe.

PS. I didn't see the second season. But unless Lelouch told the gods to kill themselves, or never bother humanity again, or forget about Lelouch, or something similar, they could have simply returned to earth and did whatever they wanted to Lelouch to punish him for daring to defy them. A "never return" or "forget about" command might possibly require constant obedience, and thus be similar to Euphie's "kill the Japanese" command. Euphie broke her command within less than an hour probably, and the gods did not break theirs for the rest of the series. Unless they were free to do whatever they wanted to Lelouch but just didn't bother for some reason.

P.P.S. And wouldn't gods have time travel abilities? Wouldn't Lelouch have to give them some geass they had to continually obey to keep them from using time travel to prevent him from giving them a geas command? The gods would seem certain to get back at Lelouch & co. for giving them a geass, unless Lelouch gave them some geass to leave him alone forever (perhaps cut from the episode for lack of time), or else they didn't care about the issue very much. But if they didn't care very much Lelouch could have simply asked them to do what he wanted without using the geass on them. Or maybe this was part of some elaborate plot to get Lelouch to give the gods a geass command to do something they wanted to do but couldn't for some reason (perhaps the even bigger gods wouldn't let them?). Thinking about that makes me even gladder I didn't watch R2.

I don't actually remember what words Lelouch said to gods, but he ordered them to "kill" Marianne and Charles(Of course you don't know that she was alive, do you?). And at that time he ordered this, his Geass adapted to another eye and he had 2 geass eyes, which means he became even more stronger than he already was. Since he used his geass on Nunally with stronger geass, she managed to resist it a little at the beginning, but obeyed in the end. So the point is that Euphemia encountered only "weak" Geass of Lelouch.

Luluko
08-03-2009, 02:08 PM
But other people have complained about my long uninterrupted texts.

We complained that you didn't separate the walls of text into paragraphs. Now that you do, we can at least read your xbox huge comments without the need to poke our eyes out.



You say that Euphemia tried to fight Kallen? Perhaps you should check my post # 69 in the forum "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and maybe change your mind.

Well, in my copy of episode 23 Kallen bumps into Euphemia and Euphie says something like "Are you Japanese? How dare you attack Princess Euphemia?" And Kallen says something like: "Aha! I found you!" (pleased at her clever detective work, no doubt) And Euphemia says something like "You're the girl from the Island", recognizing Kallen's voice (and not sounding very angry, despite Kallen shooting a machine gun at her the last time they met, instead sounding pleased to meet someone she encountered before) And then Kallen prepares to attack and says something like "I got you now!" and Lelouch interrupts.

I don't see anything in this to give much clue about what Euphie plans to do about Kallen, a Black Knight who looks like a Britannian, and no hint that Euphie intends to fight her as you claim.

Euphemia later apologized to Lelouch/Zero for harmlessly shooting a machine gun at his armored nightmare when she thought it had a Japanese pilot. That leaves two possibilities:

1) Euphie would not have shot a dinky little hand-held machine gun at Kallen's nightmare, let alone done anything more likely to harm it and the pilot, once she recognized Kallen as a girl who did not look like a Japanese and thus was not covered by the geass command.

2) Euphemia would have attacked Kallen's nightmare but was sorry for harmlessly shooting a machine gun at Zero's nightmare just a few minutes later, and so the geass command was rapidly losing its power to control her in those few minutes.

Either possibility is evidence against your general argument.

Look at your copy of the episode, and refresh your memory, then read my post # 69 in "Code Geass: Black Knight/White Knight" and then think about whether you want to change your statement.

P.S. The bit about Euphemia's older model nightmare being easily disarmed indicates that you might possibly be implying that Kallen disarmed Euphie's nightmare. If so you really need to watch the episode again.

1. I said they encountered, not that Kallen and Euphemia began to fight on the KF's. And yes, Euphemia recognized Kallen from Kaminejima, so what? She was still japanese, if she had the chance, she would have attacked her.

2. You can't deny Euphemia had and older KF compared to the Guren or the Gawain.

3. I'm latin, I saw Code Geass with spanish subs. I'm not going to argue about what they said too deeply because of 'lol translations'.

4. The Geass command was not losing power since Euphemia knew that Zero= Lelouch ergo not japanese. The command was directed only to kill japanese. Although you can say that Lelouch (and Kallen, see point 1 again) was in danger as well since the order forced her to eliminate or incapacitate those who could stop her from acomplishing it*: She shot Darlton when he tried to reason with her.

*It works like chain logic: In order to kill the japanese, I must take out of the way those who want to stop me too.

A few other things:

- The red light in the eyes is something to let the audience know that the person is/was under the command of the Geass. Is not something other characters can see in the series.

- Lelouch told the "Gods" to not stop the passage of time. Not exactly to kill Charles and Marianne. The Gods only took them out because they were against Lelouch's order. Yet again, chain logic.

proEuphie
08-03-2009, 09:53 PM
I don't actually remember what words Lelouch said to gods, but he ordered them to "kill" Marianne and Charles(Of course you don't know that she was alive, do you?). And at that time he ordered this, his Geass adapted to another eye and he had 2 geass eyes, which means he became even more stronger than he already was. Since he used his geass on Nunally with stronger geass, she managed to resist it a little at the beginning, but obeyed in the end. So the point is that Euphemia encountered only "weak" Geass of Lelouch.

But Euphemia and Nunnally were capable of resisting a geass command, and the gods were not, so Euphemia and Nunnlly must both be superior to the gods, even if Euphie is perhaps a thousand to a million times superior to Nunnally. But you say that Lelouch used a double-eyed geass command on the gods.

Oh, wow! A double-eyed geaas command! Shouldn't that be maybe twice as powerful as a single-eyed geass command? So at the most the gods would have been just twice as capable of resisting a geass command as Nunnally, and Euphemia was between a thousand and a million times superior to Nunnally if judged by the speed of breaking a geass.

Nunnally resisted but did not break a double-eyed geass command and broke a forgetting gess, while Euphemia resisted and defeated a command geass which was much stronger than a forgetting geass and thousands of times faster than Nunnally, so even if the geass commmand she broke was not a double-eyed one she still seems incredibly superior to Nunnally who in turn is probably superior to every other person that is considered to be merely human in the world of code geass. I think that is the very least that can be said about Ephemia's greatness.

I think it wold be advisable to give up trying to disprove Euphemia's greatness, before you end up trying to convince me and our readers that the gods were not as insignificant as some people think they were, that actually the gods were almost as great as Euphemia!

P.S. Shouldn't Lelouch have commanded the gods not to bring Charles and Marianne back to life? Wouldn't the gods simply bring them back to life as soon as lleouch left if the gods had even the slightest desire for Charles and Marianne to be alive? And if the gods didn't have even the slightest desire for Charles and Marianne to be alive, the gods would probably have killed them if Lleouch simply asked them to, without using his geass.

Thus Lleouch should have added "and never bring them back to life!" to his geass command if he wanted Charles and Marianne to stay dead. Perhaps he did and it was cut from the script for reasons of time. Perhaps the writers forgot about that and painted themselves into yet another R2 corner.

But if the gods were commanded to never bring Charles and Marianne back to life and had time travel capability they could resurrect them and send them back in time to Lleouch's era if they ever broke the geass command after countless millions or billions of years. So it seems they never did break the geass command and thus they were infinitely inferior to Euphemia in geass breaking ability.

If the gods did not have time travel ability they might not bother to resurrect Charles and Marianne after lleouch was dead and they didn't need to do so to annoy him. But that would mean that they failed to break their geass command before lleouch died, and thus were much inferior to Euphie in geass breaking ability.

wolfgirl90
08-04-2009, 02:08 PM
Oh, wow! A double-eyed geaas command! Shouldn't that be maybe twice as powerful as a single-eyed geass command? So at the most the gods would have been just twice as capable of resisting a geass command as Nunnally, and Euphemia was between a thousand and a million times superior to Nunnally if judged by the speed of breaking a geass.

*sigh* Okay, there are two things that you are clearly disregarding:

1. Euphemia NEVER broke her Geass. She may have been close, really close, or really, REALLY close, but getting close does not mean actually doing it, so she never broke the Geass, especially since (and here's what you keep forgetting) THE GEASS CAME BACK!

I would have been amazed if Euphemia broke the Geass and returned to reality in the middle of a battlefield (holding a gun), while being surrounded by carnage and destruction, and yet, act calm and collected about it.

2. There is no point in comparing the speeds of breaking the Geass since 1) you are comparing two different types of Geass from two different people and 2) Euphemia never broke her's.


Nunnally resisted but did not break a double-eyed geass command and broke a forgetting gess, while Euphemia resisted and defeated a command geass which was much stronger than a forgetting geass and thousands of times faster than Nunnally, so even if the geass commmand she broke was not a double-eyed one she still seems incredibly superior to Nunnally who in turn is probably superior to every other person that is considered to be merely human in the world of code geass. I think that is the very least that can be said about Ephemia's greatness.

Nunnally DID break a double-eyed Geass...FROM CHARLES! He has the Geass in both of his eyes! This was revealed baack during the second episode of R2 (I will again assume that you did not watch R2). http://geass.reverielied.net/images/geassemp.jpg

And I will again point out that Euphemia didn't break the Geass placed upon her, so there is no point in comparing her "Geass breaking speed" to Nunnally's, when Euphemia never broke the Geass to begin with.:rolleyes:


I think it wold be advisable to give up trying to disprove Euphemia's greatness, before you end up trying to convince me and our readers that the gods were not as insignificant as some people think they were, that actually the gods were almost as great as Euphemia!

I am not trying to disprove anything about Euphemia's "greatness" (again, its a cartoon; settle down) since most of the evidence that you have presented as proof of her "greatness" is not valid. That's like saying that you like Bill Gates because he is a monkey trainer. Sure, there are plenty of things one can like about him, but you can't like him for being a monkey trainer because that is not true (and there is no point in arguing otherwise). Euphemia is a good character and all, but you can't say that she is better than anyone else because she broke the Geass, broke it faster or because she resisted longer than anyone else because that is not true (and there is no point arguing otherwise).;)


P.S. Shouldn't Lelouch have commanded the gods not to bring Charles and Marianne back to life? Wouldn't the gods simply bring them back to life as soon as lleouch left if the gods had even the slightest desire for Charles and Marianne to be alive? And if the gods didn't have even the slightest desire for Charles and Marianne to be alive, the gods would probably have killed them if Lleouch simply asked them to, without using his geass.

No. That was an implied command. Lelouch could have been direct about the command or just implied what it meant. Charles and Marianne are the only ones involved in stopping the progress the time, so while Lelouch could have just said "Kill Charles and Marianne", he didn't have to. Telling the gods not to stop the progress of time would be the same as telling them to stop the people who are trying to stop the progress of time, and since Charles and Marianne are the only ones trying to do that, they are the ones who are killed.


But that would mean that they failed to break their geass command before lleouch died, and thus were much inferior to Euphie in geass breaking ability.

Well, again, Euphemia never broke the Geass; she MAY have been close (your opinion, not mine) but being close, again, doesn't mean anything (being ClOSE to breaking the Geass does not mean that one ACTUALLY did). Also, if we assume that everyone has the same chance of resisting the Geass, the gods would have had only have half the chance of resisting the Geass than if it was in just one eye; twice the power means one's chance of resistance (whatever it may be) would be cut in half.

So Euphemia may have resisted, but she was only facing Lelouch's Geass when it was in just one eye. The gods (and Nunnally, for that matter) had to deal with it when it was in both of Lelouch's eyes, so your previous point is moot. That's like saying that a person who survived getting hit by a car was better than a person who died after getting hit by a semi. Yeah, the first person survived but they faced a lesser threat than the guy who died; there is no comparison between the two.

Alkazor
08-04-2009, 09:32 PM
hey, I read this whole thing, do I get a prize?
Based on everything I've seen here and in the series, and my understanding of Geass as a whole, I think Euphie was close but once the command is given, it's a battle of wills.

Shirley resisted Geass when Lelouch ordered her to live, she wasn't even phased, but the command was impossible. Lelouch broke Charles Geass, with help from C.C., but we've discussed that. Nunnaly resisted Lelouch's Geass, and so did Euphie, but...

I think they were only able to resist because Lelouch didn't want them to be controlled in the first place. He must have been dying inside when he had to use his geass on Nunnaly, the one person he would never use it on, and Euphie was an accident. I think they were only able to resist because Lelouch wanted them to break the geass.

Everything else I could comment on has already been covered...in detail...and I read it... Ow.

Also, Bill Gates is the coolest monkey trainer alive.

blackrosetwilight
08-04-2009, 11:33 PM
So you assume that Lelouch would have killed Euphemia because she was a threat to his plans, and you ask why he didn't kill Suzaku who you think was a bigger threat to his plans.

I don't think that Lelouch killed Euphemia because she was a threat to his plans. Lelouch's other attackers and defenders may think they know why he killed Euphemia, but I have thought of dozens of reasons why Lelouch might have killed Euphemia (and that's not counting my Letterman-style list of silly reasons) but I don't claim to know if Lelouch killed her because of any one or combination of those reasons. His actual motives, unlike many of his possible motives, are a mystery to me.

Look Im just saying Lelouch never intended or wanted to kill Euphy when they met at the SAZ, he had his chance at the island when she revealed Lelouch identity and knew it might one day threaten his plan but yet he let her live then. Not only that it was even revealed that he had some romantic feeling for her after he killed her and even regrets doing it too and you cant deny that. As I said before the sudden activation of his geass giving Euphy the accindental command, Lelouch incomplete knowledge about his geass, his emotional break down, his need for revenge and his calculating logic all led him to conclude that he must kill Euphy in order to carry on his revenge.
But lets get back to Lelouch character he's not the type to willingly sacrifice the life of someone close to him and if you seen R2 Lelouch didnt want Rolo to give up his life to save his even though Rolo killed Shirley and lelouch also wanted to kill him too or how he lied to Kalen that everything he did such as the rebelion was just a game for his own amusment so she wouldnt sacrifice her life fighting her own comrads to save his. Euphy was just unlucky so get over it and move on to another princess. Oh yes that also reminds me Lelouch captured Cornellia and locked her up, so again Euphy was just unlucky, fortunetly Conellia was spared so Im guessing your feeling got through... well sort of.

Manhattan_Project_2000
08-04-2009, 11:50 PM
hey, I read this whole thing, do I get a prizeYes, irreparable brain damage. I didn't even get through a half a page of proEuphie's uberbias before my soul recoiled in horror, so I can only imagine the lasting genetic damage a full dose would do.

Shin Natsume
08-05-2009, 12:09 AM
Woah, those are extremely long post. Why do you guys have to quote the really big ones? Not just parts, the ENTIRE thing! I won't even bother reading this, just had to make that comment.

IcePriestess
08-05-2009, 03:43 AM
Wow. There was somebody who actually read all of this(that's like reading a bible, as somebody said in previous posts). Actually I think whatever we say, and it doesn't matter that we are right, ProEuphie will keep defending Euphemia and trying to prove her wrong fact that Euphemia broke Geass. Actually we don't have to go further into this conversation. The writers/creators of Code Geass may have never thought about her breaking Geass and just made Euphemia "another victim of the Geass" in order for Code Geass to have more episodes. So I don't see the point in arguing with ProEuphie anymore,because she will keep defending Euphemia(as her nickname says), no matter what we will say.

proEuphie
08-05-2009, 04:16 PM
Apparently nobody read all of my post # 68.

It has always been debated whether the geass failed to take control of Euphemia in the sickbay because it realized that she was too weak to kill and thus gave up trying to make her kill, or because she defeated the geass command.

As I said near the bottom of post # 68, on Saturday, 08/01/09, I remembered what we all knew and what we all should have remembered months ago. Euphemia was certainly strong enough to kill Suzaku and other Japanese people while she was struggling with the geass command in the sickbay.

Afterward, she continued to use, in a nonviolent manner, a power or ability which can be used to kill one person or countless millions of persons when used in a violent manner. It is a skill which makes each of us potentially capable of destroying all life on Earth.

Many people have used that talent or ability to save or harm people born decades, or centuries, or thousands of years later than their own deaths. Many people who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago have used that skill to change the way we live our lives today.

If you haven't yet remembered such an obvious thing, which I felt so stupid for not remembering months ago, it is a power which the geass command had made her use to kill Japanese people. So the geass command should have been able to remember making her kill that way before, and if it didn't have any memory it should have thought of using that killing method just as easy and fast as it thought of using that killing method the first time.

So if you haven't remembered it yet, you'd better think fast, or wait some minutes before you read on.

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And that power to save or kill which Euphie was still strong enough to use was:

Talking.

Euphemia could have asked Suzaku to get the captain of the Avalon on the intercom. And then she could have ordered the captain to kill Suzaku and any other Japanese (prisoners, honorary Britannians, etc.) aboard, and head for the nearest ghetto to blast it with the Avalon's weapons!!

Yes, the geass command knew that Euphemia was still strong enough to kill. So Euphemia defeated and broke it for the first or the second time in the sickbay,

proEuphie
08-05-2009, 04:37 PM
Wow. There was somebody who actually read all of this(that's like reading a bible, as somebody said in previous posts). Actually I think whatever we say, and it doesn't matter that we are right, ProEuphie will keep defending Euphemia and trying to prove her wrong fact that Euphemia broke Geass. Actually we don't have to go further into this conversation. The writers/creators of Code Geass may have never thought about her breaking Geass and just made Euphemia "another victim of the Geass" in order for Code Geass to have more episodes. So I don't see the point in arguing with ProEuphie anymore,because she will keep defending Euphemia(as her nickname says), no matter what we will say.

see my post # 83.

proEuphie
08-05-2009, 04:37 PM
Woah, those are extremely long post. Why do you guys have to quote the really big ones? Not just parts, the ENTIRE thing! I won't even bother reading this, just had to make that comment.

see my post # 83.

proEuphie
08-05-2009, 04:38 PM
Yes, irreparable brain damage. I didn't even get through a half a page of proEuphie's uberbias before my soul recoiled in horror, so I can only imagine the lasting genetic damage a full dose would do.

see my post # 83.

proEuphie
08-05-2009, 04:39 PM
hey, I read this whole thing, do I get a prize?
Based on everything I've seen here and in the series, and my understanding of Geass as a whole, I think Euphie was close but once the command is given, it's a battle of wills.

Shirley resisted Geass when Lelouch ordered her to live, she wasn't even phased, but the command was impossible. Lelouch broke Charles Geass, with help from C.C., but we've discussed that. Nunnaly resisted Lelouch's Geass, and so did Euphie, but...

I think they were only able to resist because Lelouch didn't want them to be controlled in the first place. He must have been dying inside when he had to use his geass on Nunnaly, the one person he would never use it on, and Euphie was an accident. I think they were only able to resist because Lelouch wanted them to break the geass.

Everything else I could comment on has already been covered...in detail...and I read it... Ow.

Also, Bill Gates is the coolest monkey trainer alive.

see my post # 83.

proEuphie
08-05-2009, 04:40 PM
*sigh* Okay, there are two things that you are clearly disregarding:

1. Euphemia NEVER broke her Geass. She may have been close, really close, or really, REALLY close, but getting close does not mean actually doing it, so she never broke the Geass, especially since (and here's what you keep forgetting) THE GEASS CAME BACK!

I would have been amazed if Euphemia broke the Geass and returned to reality in the middle of a battlefield (holding a gun), while being surrounded by carnage and destruction, and yet, act calm and collected about it.

2. There is no point in comparing the speeds of breaking the Geass since 1) you are comparing two different types of Geass from two different people and 2) Euphemia never broke her's.



Nunnally DID break a double-eyed Geass...FROM CHARLES! He has the Geass in both of his eyes! This was revealed baack during the second episode of R2 (I will again assume that you did not watch R2). http://geass.reverielied.net/images/geassemp.jpg

And I will again point out that Euphemia didn't break the Geass placed upon her, so there is no point in comparing her "Geass breaking speed" to Nunnally's, when Euphemia never broke the Geass to begin with.:rolleyes:



I am not trying to disprove anything about Euphemia's "greatness" (again, its a cartoon; settle down) since most of the evidence that you have presented as proof of her "greatness" is not valid. That's like saying that you like Bill Gates because he is a monkey trainer. Sure, there are plenty of things one can like about him, but you can't like him for being a monkey trainer because that is not true (and there is no point in arguing otherwise). Euphemia is a good character and all, but you can't say that she is better than anyone else because she broke the Geass, broke it faster or because she resisted longer than anyone else because that is not true (and there is no point arguing otherwise).;)



No. That was an implied command. Lelouch could have been direct about the command or just implied what it meant. Charles and Marianne are the only ones involved in stopping the progress the time, so while Lelouch could have just said "Kill Charles and Marianne", he didn't have to. Telling the gods not to stop the progress of time would be the same as telling them to stop the people who are trying to stop the progress of time, and since Charles and Marianne are the only ones trying to do that, they are the ones who are killed.



Well, again, Euphemia never broke the Geass; she MAY have been close (your opinion, not mine) but being close, again, doesn't mean anything (being ClOSE to breaking the Geass does not mean that one ACTUALLY did). Also, if we assume that everyone has the same chance of resisting the Geass, the gods would have had only have half the chance of resisting the Geass than if it was in just one eye; twice the power means one's chance of resistance (whatever it may be) would be cut in half.

So Euphemia may have resisted, but she was only facing Lelouch's Geass when it was in just one eye. The gods (and Nunnally, for that matter) had to deal with it when it was in both of Lelouch's eyes, so your previous point is moot. That's like saying that a person who survived getting hit by a car was better than a person who died after getting hit by a semi. Yeah, the first person survived but they faced a lesser threat than the guy who died; there is no comparison between the two.

see my post # 83.

proEuphie
08-05-2009, 05:52 PM
*sigh* Okay, there are two things that you are clearly disregarding:

1. Euphemia NEVER broke her Geass. She may have been close, really close, or really, REALLY close, but getting close does not mean actually doing it, so she never broke the Geass, especially since (and here's what you keep forgetting) THE GEASS CAME BACK!

I would have been amazed if Euphemia broke the Geass and returned to reality in the middle of a battlefield (holding a gun), while being surrounded by carnage and destruction, and yet, act calm and collected about it.

2. There is no point in comparing the speeds of breaking the Geass since 1) you are comparing two different types of Geass from two different people and 2) Euphemia never broke her's.



Nunnally DID break a double-eyed Geass...FROM CHARLES! He has the Geass in both of his eyes! This was revealed baack during the second episode of R2 (I will again assume that you did not watch R2). http://geass.reverielied.net/images/geassemp.jpg

And I will again point out that Euphemia didn't break the Geass placed upon her, so there is no point in comparing her "Geass breaking speed" to Nunnally's, when Euphemia never broke the Geass to begin with.:rolleyes:



I am not trying to disprove anything about Euphemia's "greatness" (again, its a cartoon; settle down) since most of the evidence that you have presented as proof of her "greatness" is not valid. That's like saying that you like Bill Gates because he is a monkey trainer. Sure, there are plenty of things one can like about him, but you can't like him for being a monkey trainer because that is not true (and there is no point in arguing otherwise). Euphemia is a good character and all, but you can't say that she is better than anyone else because she broke the Geass, broke it faster or because she resisted longer than anyone else because that is not true (and there is no point arguing otherwise).;)



No. That was an implied command. Lelouch could have been direct about the command or just implied what it meant. Charles and Marianne are the only ones involved in stopping the progress the time, so while Lelouch could have just said "Kill Charles and Marianne", he didn't have to. Telling the gods not to stop the progress of time would be the same as telling them to stop the people who are trying to stop the progress of time, and since Charles and Marianne are the only ones trying to do that, they are the ones who are killed.



Well, again, Euphemia never broke the Geass; she MAY have been close (your opinion, not mine) but being close, again, doesn't mean anything (being ClOSE to breaking the Geass does not mean that one ACTUALLY did). Also, if we assume that everyone has the same chance of resisting the Geass, the gods would have had only have half the chance of resisting the Geass than if it was in just one eye; twice the power means one's chance of resistance (whatever it may be) would be cut in half.

So Euphemia may have resisted, but she was only facing Lelouch's Geass when it was in just one eye. The gods (and Nunnally, for that matter) had to deal with it when it was in both of Lelouch's eyes, so your previous point is moot. That's like saying that a person who survived getting hit by a car was better than a person who died after getting hit by a semi. Yeah, the first person survived but they faced a lesser threat than the guy who died; there is no comparison between the two.

My post # 83 proves that Euphemia broke and defeated her geass command in a matter of seconds (if counted from her first noticing it) or minutes or hours (if counted from the time Lelouch gave it to her) in the sickbay of the Avalon. Thus the only question left is whether she broke it earlier, when talking to Lelouch.

Is the cup half empty or half full?

I am willing to admit that Euphemia may not have totally defeated and destroyed and broken her geass, and you seem to think that is a great failure on her part, but look at it from the point of view of the hypothetical supervisor of her geass command:

"What! You lost control of your subject? How could you disgrace us like that? And don't claim that you were still trying to regain control when she died. I saw how she whipped you in the sickbay. And even if you had retaken her, you would still be the first geass command ever to let the subject slip out of your control!"

Or suppose in an alternate universe Lelouch and the Black Knights never came to rescue the victims of the Fuji Massacre for some reason. About the time that Euphemia was talking to Lelouch in the aired episode, she might have been pointing her cannon at a group of trapped Japanese people when suddenly she lowered it and her nightmare stood still and silent and the frightened people waited a second and then ran out of there as fast as they could. A few minutes later all the Britannian nightmares started marching back to the stadium under Euphemia's orders now that she had come completely out of the geass trance.

Suppose we visited some of those lucky survivors on an anniversary of that day and they heard us arguing about whether Euphemia had completely broken her geass command. Wouldn't they think the argument was pointless? She had broken the geass command completely enough to not shoot them and enough to call off the massacre. Wasn't that complete enough?

Why do you insist that Nunnally completely broke her geass command? Wasn't that just a few episodes before the Zero Requiem, and probably just a few days? If Nunnally was normal wouldn't she spend a third of her time asleep? If her geass made her forget that she could see for a few minutes while she was sleeping, how could she ever know?

If she had a dream which switched back and forth from vision to nonvision, and she remembered it when she woke up, she would just assume that was a relatively normal consequence of her abnormal experience of regaining vision after years of blindness.

And wouldn't Nunnally probably expect there was a chance she would lose her vision again suddenly, and be prepared for that? So if it did happen for short periods she probably wouldn't have any accidents worth telling other people about. If she was still in a wheelchair at that time she'd probably have someone to push and do the steering anyway.

If she was lying in bed watching television and went blind she might just listen to it until her sight came back. Or maybe Nunnally spent some of those days before the Zero Requiem sitting chained up in a dungeon in a deep depression staring blankly off into space. If she lost her vision for a few seconds or minutes now and then, would she react strongly enough for any of her fellow prisoners to notice and ask what was the problem? And what would she tell them, if she temporarily couldn't even remember that she once had vision?

I don't think any such hypothetical problems would be reasons to claim that Nunnally did not break her blindness geass. And I say there is not much reason to assume that Nunnally broke her geass any more completely than Euphemia broke her geass command.

You say there is no reason to compare the speeds at which Euphemia and Nunnally broke there geases because they were different geasses. I say that most people would estimate the difference in a way that makes Euphemia do something harder much, much, faster than Nunnally does something easier, so of course you don't want them compared.

And thus there is reason for noticing that Euphemia broke her geass thousands of times faster than Nunnally did, if counted from the times the geasess were given.

Euphemia and Nunnally both resisted geass commands for the same amount of time, though humans cannot resist at all, and one command was single-eyed and one was double eyed. If the resistance time is the same for single-eyed and double-eyed commands, perhaps the time to break them would be the same, in which case Euphemia would capable of breaking a double-eyed command much faster than the gods did, if they ever did.

If one form of geass was harder to break than the other, most people would imagine it would be a geass command, and thus Euphemia accomplished a more difficult feat much faster than Nunnally accomplished a less difficult feat.

And it may not have mattered if Charles' had double-eyed geass when he used a forgetting geass on Nunnally. Didn't you once write that Nunnally could not have resisted Charles giving her the geass because she was in the hospital after being shot? This is how you describe Euphemia in the sickbay of the Avalon: "Euphemia had just been shot in the stomach. She was in an intensive care unit. She just came out of surgery. I think that qualifies as totally helpless, don't you?"

And yet, as my post # 83 shows, Euphemia managed to defeat her geass command in that feeble condition. In seconds. That would be a lot less amazing if she had earlier broken the geass command when talking to Lelouch, and thus her subconscious mind knew exactly what to do

And you would probably claim that Nunnally was in a somewhat similar condition in the hospital when Charles visited her and gave her a forgetting geass. So she couldn't resist. Although Euphemia did resist and defeat the geass command trying to come back

But Nunnally's condition may have also made it harder for Charles to give her the geass. Perhaps it was so hard for him to be certain that she was conscious enough for him to geass her that he did it more than once, hoping that she stayed conscious at least once long enough to receive an entire geassing. And if she could barely hear him and barely keep even one eye open for a second at a time his double-eyed geassing might not have been much of an advantage. Perhaps when he heard that she was now blind he thought that with luck it might last five or ten years which might be enough time.

If double-eyed geasses are harder to break than single-eyed geasses, that would reduce Euphemia's margin of superiority over Nunnally to perhaps ten times to ten thousand times. Poor Euphemia! Only ten to ten thousand times as great as the only other member of her species known to live on Earth! How shameful!

proEuphie
08-05-2009, 08:19 PM
*sigh* Okay, there are two things that you are clearly disregarding:

1. Euphemia NEVER broke her Geass. She may have been close, really close, or really, REALLY close, but getting close does not mean actually doing it, so she never broke the Geass, especially since (and here's what you keep forgetting) THE GEASS CAME BACK!

I would have been amazed if Euphemia broke the Geass and returned to reality in the middle of a battlefield (holding a gun), while being surrounded by carnage and destruction, and yet, act calm and collected about it.

My post number 83 shows that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon, as does a part of my post # 68 that you apparently never bothered to read.

As for right before Lelouch shot her, Euphemia reduced the influence of the geass upon her to almost zero, so that it didn't influence her actions anymore. From her point of view the glass was about 90 % full, from the point of view of the geass it was about 90% empty. And of course if she had a few more minutes without being shot she might have totally and absolutely defeated the geass.

I say that preventing the geass from controlling you is defeating it enough to satisfy the people it doesn't make you shoot, even if it still keeps trying to regain control.

And yes the geass came back and as my post # 83 proves she defeated it in seconds. Which makes it almost certain that her subconscious mind figured out to defeat the geass and did defeat it before she was shot, and thus it could remember how to defeat the geass when it tried to regain control.

And Nunnally's blindness geass probably came back from time to time, depriving her of sight for a few minutes or seconds, without causing her too much annoyance. That would not be enough to make you say that Nunnally did not defeat her blindness geass, so why should you say that Euphemia did not defeat her geass command?


So you think that Euphemia would freak out when she suddenly found herself on a battlefield, holding a gun, with a bloody dress.

Even though that was similar in some ways to being teleported to Kaminejima, or rather into the ocean and having to wade or swim ashore and maybe almost drowning, and then seeing a dreaded rebel leader pointing a gun at you, and sounding just a little bit excited as you ask him if he is your long lost brother and not to shoot you. And perhaps other similar experiences we know nothing about.

Maybe you should list all the other times she freaked out in moments of stress. Try listing all the moments of stress Euphemia was in and all the times she freaked out. During her episodes Euphemia was in danger and stress about as often as any of the other characters, who were soldiers and rebels. I believe that Euphemia got panicked, excited, and stressed out about zero times, unlike some of the tough and hardened soldiers and terrorists who lost their cool more often than Euphemia.

You really expect Euphemia to run around waving her arms yelling: "Help! Help! Where am I? What happened?"
instead of simply trying to figure out where she is and remember how she got there?

That is not up to your standard of argument. You are not arguing about how the Code geass universe works but simply saying that a character must behave the way you expect them to. Even though no other character is known to have ever obeyed a geass command while their unconscious mind fought intense mental battles with the geass command and eventually freed them from the control of the geass command. There are no other examples to compare Euphemia's mental condition to. Unless people who complete their geass commands and come out of the trance behave exactly the same way, and it would simply be an assumption to claim that they do.

Maybe Euphemia is often suddenly transported to strange alien worlds.
Maybe Euphemia is a sleepwalker and is used to waking up in strange places.
Maybe some unknown geass user gave Euphemia a geass which makes her do things periodically, and she often comes out of a geass trance in strange places.
Maybe imperial princes and princesses get a mental conditioning to enable them to be calm in moments of crisis and danger, and it worked a lot better on Euphemia than on some others, like Clovis, for example.

Or maybe Euphemia is just not very excitable in moments of danger and stress.

My post # 83 shows that Euphemia was still strong enough while in the sickbay to kill using a method the geass command had made her use before. Therefore the geass command would not have abandoned its attempt to take her over and make her kill. Euphie must have defeated the geass command in the sickbay in a matter of seconds.

That would be a lot less amazing if she had already defeated the geass command, after minutes or hours of struggle, while she was talking to Lelouch, and thus could remember how to do it when the geass command reemerged in the sickbay.

Her behavior of not doing anything to obey the geass command while talking to Lelouch is pretty close to proof that she defeated her geass command enough to escape from its control and not even notice its feeble attempts to make her kill, so the victory over the geass command in the sickbay is hardly needed as additional evidence that Euphemia defeated the geass command while talking to Lelouch.

Prepared to be amazed, because Euphemia did defeat her geass command while talking to Lelouch and did act calm and cool when she suddenly found herself on a battlefield holding a gun.

Capernicus
08-05-2009, 08:32 PM
I dub thee: thread of the quintuple tldr posts!

Seņor Nobody
08-05-2009, 08:38 PM
I-I read all the posts...I think I am going to be sick.

To be on topic: I think that Euphemia was unable to carry out the geass commands at the end so it was kinda overridden. Just my opinion.

Alkazor
08-05-2009, 08:41 PM
Woohoo, more to read.

Just FYI, I did read the bible. It was shorter. It was a pocket bible, but I think it was still shorter.

Now the Wheel of Time series...that was longer. There's a book to base a religion off of ;)

Anyway, ProEuphie, posts 83 and 68 have been countered effectively.
If I wasn't really hungry and didn't have to pee, I' might join in and re-watch the entire fiasco. I might even re-read this thread. But I have to pee, and then eat, and by then I'll have forgotten what I was doing and play a game or watch TV. But I might be back. So I guess my god-knowledge will have to wait.

Also, for the rest of us, I plan on condensing this thread a little. I'll post summaries of the posts for everybody else, weather they care or not.

EDIT: Somehow I came back, but I've decided to rewatch episodes 22 and 23 of Lelouch of the Rebellion. "Bloodstained Euphie" and "At Least with Sorrow".

Here are magical links.
Episode 22, "Bloodstained Euphie" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78CzAROPlok) discussion starts at 16:06.
Episode 23, "At Least with Sorrow" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeKn91zt5SA)

proEuphie
08-05-2009, 10:42 PM
Woohoo, more to read.

Just FYI, I did read the bible. It was shorter. It was a pocket bible, but I think it was still shorter.

Now the Wheel of Time series...that was longer. There's a book to base a religion off of ;)

Anyway, ProEuphie, posts 83 and 68 have been countered effectively.
If I wasn't really hungry and didn't have to pee, I' might join in and re-watch the entire fiasco. I might even re-read this thread. But I have to pee, and then eat, and by then I'll have forgotten what I was doing and play a game or watch TV. But I might be back. So I guess my god-knowledge will have to wait.

Also, for the rest of us, I plan on condensing this thread a little. I'll post summaries of the posts for everybody else, weather they care or not.

EDIT: Somehow I came back, but I've decided to rewatch episodes 22 and 23 of Lelouch of the Rebellion. "Bloodstained Euphie" and "At Least with Sorrow".

Here are magical links.
Episode 22, "Bloodstained Euphie" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78CzAROPlok) discussion starts at 16:06.
Episode 23, "At Least with Sorrow" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeKn91zt5SA)


how can you say that posts 83 and 68 have been counted effectively?

If Euphemia could talk she could order people killed. She talked for a long time (well, minutes at least) after the geass was no longer bothering her. Her geass knew that she had been able to talk people to death before by ordering a massacre. Thus the geass knew that she was strong enough to kill.

No self respecting geass command would just abandon a subject who still had so much potential for carrying on the mission. The only possible reason why the geass did not take over Euphie must be that she defeated it in just seconds.

Please point out the numbers of any posts where anyone even discusses that point, let alone counters it.

Then the question becomes, when Euphie defeated the geass command in the sickbay, was it for the first or the second time? Did she defeat it before, while talking to Lelouch? But after my post # 83, I don't see how anyone can seriously discuss that point without admitting that Euphie defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon.

Alkazor
08-06-2009, 10:47 AM
Unlike some people I like to try to keep my info in one post, so the summaries are gonna be massive. (Don't worry, we love you ProEuphie) ^_-

Anyway, after watching the episodes again, here's what it looks like. is Euphie resisted the Geass for a number of reasons. First, she never killed before, and she loves the Japanese. That would be like asking Santa to murder children. He'd do it, but he'd be reluctant. Second, Lelouch really didn't want her to either, and since Geass has so much to do with willpower, Lelouch's lack of a will for her to kill might have helped. Third, there's really no way, short of about 30 FLEIJA weapons that could take out every Japanese person. It could also be that his eye just went permanent, or the C.C. had just sent Suzaku into C's world (Or whatever the hell happened there) or Chuck Norris could have politely asked her not to. There's a number of reasons she resisted.

As for her talking to people, Geass doesn't turn you into a robot that can only do things that count towards the goal. It makes you work towards that goal. Nunnaly told Lelouch the key was his. That didn't help her hand it over. Suzaku rushed to his death on multiple occasions, and the geass just had to take over in those situations. I'm sure I could re-watch a few other episodes and find some more people who did personal things while working towards the command.

As for the sickbay, I think there was more happening internally there. She would have preferred to die for Suzaku then kill him. The geass command flashed back to her when she remembered he was Japanese. It was then suppressed, and that's when her health took a turn for the worse. If your body can't carry out the command, it just turns off. I'm sure she could have come back from a bullet wound. Suzaku escaped an explosion, Orange came back from the dead, Guilford jumped out of a FLEYJA blast, Mao survived like, 50 bullets...She probably had a stronger will to save the Japanese than to live.

Anyway, the way Geass works is complicated, but basically, the eye opens a place in the brain, making them vulnerable to the power of suggestion (Schneizal was pretty accurate when he said it was like a deep hypnosis) and then they say something, and the person does what they interpret it to mean. Euphie can handle killing the Japanese however she wants. If that means sitting down for Tea with Zero, then that's ok. That's probably why it doesn't work on animals (I have no evidence that it does or doesn't, but I do know he never used it on an animal, so I'll assume it doesn't work since Lelouch couldn't tell it what to do and have it understand).

I'll edit this with the arguments from the other post later, and I'm sure WolfGirl will want to post something. Anyway, it's 11 AM and I'm gonna go ahead and go to sleep.

Luluko
08-06-2009, 05:04 PM
First: I loved your post <3


As for her talking to people, Geass doesn't turn you into a robot that can only do things that count towards the goal. It makes you work towards that goal. Nunnaly told Lelouch the key was his. That didn't help her hand it over. Suzaku rushed to his death on multiple occasions, and the geass just had to take over in those situations. I'm sure I could re-watch a few other episodes and find some more people who did personal things while working towards the command.

I'll add the teacher from R1 who told Lelouch what was going to appear in the test. Teachers from R2 who went blind eye to Lelouch and Rolo's behavior. And that girl that was ordered to carv the wall. She acted normal, until she was sent to Britannia and was unable to keep carving the wall at Ashford.


As for the sickbay, I think there was more happening internally there. She would have preferred to die for Suzaku then kill him. The geass command flashed back to her when she remembered he was Japanese. It was then suppressed, and that's when her health took a turn for the worse. If your body can't carry out the command, it just turns off.

I don't think that the geass command turned off, the scene gave me the idea that Euphemia's logical process wasn't working anymore because she was getting weaker and dying. The order was there, but she wasn't able to connect the dots anymore. I don't know how to describe it, it's a weird feeling, like feeling light headed and then passing out.

proEuphie
08-06-2009, 10:45 PM
First: I loved your post <3



I'll add the teacher from R1 who told Lelouch what was going to appear in the test. Teachers from R2 who went blind eye to Lelouch and Rolo's behavior. And that girl that was ordered to carv the wall. She acted normal, until she was sent to Britannia and was unable to keep carving the wall at Ashford.



I don't think that the geass command turned off, the scene gave me the idea that Euphemia's logical process wasn't working anymore because she was getting weaker and dying. The order was there, but she wasn't able to connect the dots anymore. I don't know how to describe it, it's a weird feeling, like feeling light headed and then passing out.

Of course a geass command would not make people do anything except what the command said to do and any necessary steps. It wouldn't make them do anything odd or unusual or even normal in addition to what they were commanded to do. If they were interrupted while working on obeying their command it would let them react naturally but would be more and more likely to cut it short as they took more time to handle the interruption. That would be the easiest and least suspicious method of getting the job done.

You have to remember that some of those people were given geass commands to do something n the future, and of course they would live their normal lives until it was time to start doing what they were commanded to do. They were not in the geass trance yet (and might never be, if they were killed or something else happened to make it pointless for the geass command to even try carrying out the task).

And some of those people, like the girl who carved a cross on the wall every day, were given commands to be obeyed periodically. It would probably take her one to ten minutes every day to walk to the wall, carve the cross, and walk back to a place that was part of her normal routine. She would only be in the geass trances for one to ten minutes every day, and would be her normal self the rest of the time.

And even if people did react like their normal selves while in a geass trance, the geass command would make them get back to work after a second or so. The geass command would let a girl say hello to her friend, but if she then started to give a synopsis of the last several episodes of their favorite soap opera the geass command would make tell her friend she had to go, instead of letting her waste minutes.

The geass command could not stop Euphemia from apologizing to Lelouch, but after that it should have made her do something to find more Japanese people to kill and it didn't. As the seconds tick away and Euphemia does not get on with exterminating the Japanese or discuss it with Zero while he is right there and obviously capable of helping or hindering the slaughter, it sure becomes harder and harder to believe the geass is in control of her.

I'm sure Euphemia was not in prime mental condition in the sickbay, but she did become aware of an urge to kill Suzaku, and she did struggle against it, and she did seem peaceful after that. And then she asked Suzaku to go back to school and live a normal life, worried about his future once she was gone. And after that she asked Suzaku how the ceremony went, and did she do well, and were the Japanese happy. It seems to me that she was fairly rational then, and she could have understood a concept like "kill all Japanese! Contact the captain and order him to kill every Japanese he can find!" at least as easy as the concepts she did handle accurately. She didn't ask Suzaku to marry a whale with green fur, or ask if she had made a good impression while tickling the African missionaries, or anything else which indicated that she was very confused.

Luluko
08-06-2009, 10:50 PM
You have to remember that some of those people were given geass commands to do something n the future, and of course they would live their normal lives until it was time to start doing what they were commanded to do. They were not in the geass trance yet (and might never be, if they were killed or something else happened to make it pointless for the geass command to even try carrying out the task).

And some of those people, like the girl who carved a cross on the wall every day, were given commands to be obeyed periodically. It would probably take her one to ten minutes every day to walk to the wall, carve the cross, and walk back to a place that was part of her normal routine. She would only be in the geass trances for one to ten minutes every day,and would be her normal self the rest of the time.

And even if people did react like their normal elves while in a geass trance, the geass command would make them get back to work after a second or so. The geass command would let a girl say hello to her firend, but if she then started to give a synopsis of the last several episodes of hteir favorite soap opera the geass command would would make tell her friend she had to go, instead of letting her waste minutes.

The geass command oculd not stop Euphemia from apologizing to Llelouch, but after that it should have made her do something to find more Japanese people to kill and it didn't. As the seconds tick away and Euphemia does not get on with exterminating the japanese or discuss it with Zero while he is right there and obviously capable of helping or hindering the slaughter, it sure becomes harder and harder to believe the geass is in control of her.

I wasn't contradicting his post, just offering more examples. The only one who turned violent and was sent to an instution for her behavior was the girl who used to carv the wall at Ashford. Everyday she tried to go back to Ashford to follow the command. Pretty hard since she was back at Britannia.

proEuphie
08-07-2009, 09:52 PM
I wasn't contradicting his post, just offering more examples. The only one who turned violent and was sent to an instution for her behavior was the girl who used to carv the wall at Ashford. Everyday she tried to go back to Ashford to follow the command. Pretty hard since she was back at Britannia.

Whose post were you not contradicting? ProEuphie's post or Alkazor's post? You didn''t name "him" so now you have me wondering who, if anyone, should reply to your post # 98.

proEuphie
08-07-2009, 11:05 PM
Look Im just saying Lelouch never intended or wanted to kill Euphy when they met at the SAZ, he had his chance at the island when she revealed Lelouch identity and knew it might one day threaten his plan but yet he let her live then. Not only that it was even revealed that he had some romantic feeling for her after he killed her and even regrets doing it too and you cant deny that. As I said before the sudden activation of his geass giving Euphy the accindental command, Lelouch incomplete knowledge about his geass, his emotional break down, his need for revenge and his calculating logic all led him to conclude that he must kill Euphy in order to carry on his revenge.
But lets get back to Lelouch character he's not the type to willingly sacrifice the life of someone close to him and if you seen R2 Lelouch didnt want Rolo to give up his life to save his even though Rolo killed Shirley and lelouch also wanted to kill him too or how he lied to Kalen that everything he did such as the rebelion was just a game for his own amusment so she wouldnt sacrifice her life fighting her own comrads to save his. Euphy was just unlucky so get over it and move on to another princess. Oh yes that also reminds me Lelouch captured Cornellia and locked her up, so again Euphy was just unlucky, fortunetly Conellia was spared so Im guessing your feeling got through... well sort of.

What you can''t seem to realize is that Lelouch let Euphemia pick up and keep a machine gun and then left the safety of his armored nightmare to walk up to her. It seems that Lelouch knew that Euphemia's normal self would never want to harm him and that the geass command would never make her shoot him unless he acted overtly hostile. Suspicion of possible hostile intent would not be enough to make the geass act.

Lelouch was in total command of the situation when he killed Euphemia. It would have been just as fast, just as easy, and just as safe for Lelouch and the Japanese to capture her as to kill her. What possible justification could there possibly be in anyone's wildest imaginations for killing someone who doesn't even know that you are hostile to them and will not be dangerous if confined with reasonable security?

Haven't you heard the saying "never point a gun at anyone you don't want to kill"? If you do it might go off accidentially and kill them. Lelouch pointed a gun at Euphemia once in "Black Knight", twice in "Island of the Gods", and for a fourth time in "Bloodstained Euphie", and again when he shot her in "At Least with Sorrow". And there was no justification for it any time.

And so what if Lelouch regrets killing Euphie? Every normal (and most abnormal) person feels regret after killing somebody, whether it is murder or a justified killing.

My grandmother told me a story how my grandfather went hunting and shot a pheasant which she cooked for dinner. But he couldn't eat it and cried and said he was sorry he killed such a beautiful bird.

Who displayed an amount of regret most fitting to the deed? My grandfather or Lelouch?

A lot of people would say that my grandfather was not an action hero but an overly kind and sensitive civilian. But my grandfather was also an eighteen-year-old war hero who killed and captured several enemy soldiers.

The soldiers that my grandfather killed, wounded, and captured might have believed that he was way too much of an action hero and wished that he was a lot more kind, gentle, and sensitive.

I believe that my grandfather's regret for killing a bird was a lot closer to the right level than Lelouch's mild regret for killing Euphemia was.

Millions and millions of soldiers and policemen have killed people in situations which they believed made it justified, and yet suffered a lot of guilt for it for the rest of their lives. Countless millions of men have agonized over their deeds and wished there had been a way not to kill.

Millions of men would have given anything to go back in time and make the other person love and trust them enough so that they could capture them in perfect safety instead of having to kill them. Lelouch didn't need to go back in time to change anything, he already had a chance to capture someone in perfect safety instead of having to kill them.

It may have been perhaps the best chance that any warrior or rebel in the history of his world ever had to avoid a lifetime of well-deserved guilt. A chance that comes along once in countless billions of lifetimes. And he didn't use that chance but killed Euphie anyway.

And for that he felt a little more regret than my grandfather felt for killing a bird!

proEuphie
08-07-2009, 11:36 PM
We complained that you didn't separate the walls of text into paragraphs. Now that you do, we can at least read your xbox huge comments without the need to poke our eyes out.




1. I said they encountered, not that Kallen and Euphemia began to fight on the KF's. And yes, Euphemia recognized Kallen from Kaminejima, so what? She was still japanese, if she had the chance, she would have attacked her.

2. You can't deny Euphemia had and older KF compared to the Guren or the Gawain.

3. I'm latin, I saw Code Geass with spanish subs. I'm not going to argue about what they said too deeply because of 'lol translations'.

4. The Geass command was not losing power since Euphemia knew that Zero= Lelouch ergo not japanese. The command was directed only to kill japanese. Although you can say that Lelouch (and Kallen, see point 1 again) was in danger as well since the order forced her to eliminate or incapacitate those who could stop her from acomplishing it*: She shot Darlton when he tried to reason with her.

*It works like chain logic: In order to kill the japanese, I must take out of the way those who want to stop me too.

A few other things:

- The red light in the eyes is something to let the audience know that the person is/was under the command of the Geass. Is not something other characters can see in the series.

- Lelouch told the "Gods" to not stop the passage of time. Not exactly to kill Charles and Marianne. The Gods only took them out because they were against Lelouch's order. Yet again, chain logic.

1) Kallen is half Britannain and half Japanese. She may think she is Japanese but she looks Britannian. Euphemia saw her on the island and thus believed that Kallen was a Britannian, and would not have tried to kill her for being a Japanese.

4 Euphie would not kill Lelouch unless the geass made her do it. But she was not doing anything to find more Japanese to kill while she talked to lelouch and then just stood there as he walked up to her and past her. Why would the geass command let her waste so much time when at least one new Japanese baby was being born each minute?

And the geass command had access to Euphemia's knowledge about Lelouch/Zero, the powerful leader of the Black Knights,and might wonder if he was going to help or hinder the task of killing Japanese. But Euphemia didn't do anything to find out that I could see. I say that the geass command had lost control and couldn't make Euphie investigate Zero's intentions, and Euphemia, having forgotten what she did while controlled by the geass, did not remember the massacre and thus could not think of asking Zero what he would do about it.

proEuphie
08-07-2009, 11:49 PM
But that's the problem. You never saw R2, so therefore, you didn't know that Lelouch used his Geass on Nunnally or that Nunnally resisted Lelouch's Geass and resisted it for the same amount of time that Euphemia did. The only thing that you knew was that Euphemia resisted the Geass "better" than Nunnally by "breaking it", a claim that really has no base, since, as I have pointed out numerous times, Euphemia never broke the Geass that was placed upon her. However, since you are missing almost half a series worth of information, you are at quite the disadvantage when it comes to arguing your points.

Since there are only about half a dozen of you arguing against me, missing almost half a series worth of information makes the odds more even, and more of a fair contest.

And why should I suffer though watching the second season just to enlighten you a little sooner? Forcing you to retreat from one false position to the next is more entertaining than any anime anyway.

And apparently you haven't yet seen my post # 83 or all of my post # 68, which is quite a disadvantage.

blackrosetwilight
08-08-2009, 07:19 AM
proEuphy I think you do need to get the full story before start a debate, but hey this just my opinion.

wolfgirl90
08-08-2009, 02:28 PM
Since there are only about half a dozen of you arguing against me, missing almost half a series worth of information makes the odds more even, and more of a fair contest.

And why should I suffer though watching the second season just to enlighten you a little sooner? Forcing you to retreat from one false position to the next is more entertaining than any anime anyway.

And apparently you haven't yet seen my post # 83 or all of my post # 68, which is quite a disadvantage.

Since I responded to both of those posts, I have obviously seen them and have given arguments (and evidence of those arguments) to both of them and to the good majority of the posts that you have made so far. However, if you are trying to make a point, you are the one who has the burden of proof here. Its your job to make sure that we understand what you are talking about (if that's even possible). Merely directing people to your posts does not help people to understand (long blocks of text rarely do).

If I do not understand what you saying, rereading the same post that already doesn't make sense to me to begin with over and over and over again is not going to make it any better. You have the burden of proof here.

While watching R2 is not neccessary for a general discussion about Euphemia (again, she only appeared in 18 of 50 episodes), it is if you want to talk about specifics of the Geass and the characters affected by them.

You are not going to "enlighten" me by watching the second season. Since I have seen it in both English and Japanese, seen the extra material and read the guidebook, there is very little that you can say that I don't already know. Watching the second season would have helped you form stronger arguments and you would have avoided bringing up things that have already been proven:

1. Going crazy when one can't perform the actions of the Geass (the girl who made the crosses on the wall completely lost it when she was sent back to the mainland).

2. Nunnally breaking a double-eyed Geass (had you watched R2, you would have known that Charles had the Geass in both of his eyes).

3. Lelouch using the Geass on his sister.

Merely discussing Euphemia does not require that you watch the whole series. Getting into specifics about the Geass does.

proEuphie
08-08-2009, 09:13 PM
Since I responded to both of those posts, I have obviously seen them and have given arguments (and evidence of those arguments) to both of them and to the good majority of the posts that you have made so far. However, if you are trying to make a point, you are the one who has the burden of proof here. Its your job to make sure that we understand what you are talking about (if that's even possible). Merely directing people to your posts does not help people to understand (long blocks of text rarely do).

If I do not understand what you saying, rereading the same post that already doesn't make sense to me to begin with over and over and over again is not going to make it any better. You have the burden of proof here.

While watching R2 is not neccessary for a general discussion about Euphemia (again, she only appeared in 18 of 50 episodes), it is if you want to talk about specifics of the Geass and the characters affected by them.

You are not going to "enlighten" me by watching the second season. Since I have seen it in both English and Japanese, seen the extra material and read the guidebook, there is very little that you can say that I don't already know. Watching the second season would have helped you form stronger arguments and you would have avoided bringing up things that have already been proven:

1. Going crazy when one can't perform the actions of the Geass (the girl who made the crosses on the wall completely lost it when she was sent back to the mainland).

2. Nunnally breaking a double-eyed Geass (had you watched R2, you would have known that Charles had the Geass in both of his eyes).

3. Lelouch using the Geass on his sister.

Merely discussing Euphemia does not require that you watch the whole series. Getting into specifics about the Geass does.

You say you have responded to both of my posts, # 68, and #83.

Number 68 is a long post, with lots of quote boxes. The part where I show that Euphemia was perfectly capable of killing when the geass command tried to take over her in the sickbay of the Avalon was in my seventh section of text. In your post # 73 you quote from my second, fourth, sixth, fifth, and eighth sections of text in post # 68. But you do not quote from my seventh section of text in post # 68 or give any other sign that you have read it. So here it is again:

You should know by now that every time you claim that one of my arguments is flawed, I simply improve it and/or come up with a better one. I just (Aug 1, 2009, about 7 pm) thought of a really obvious way the geass command could certainly have made Euphie kill Suazku despite her weakened condition. I feel like such a dope for not thinking about it months ago. You know about that method too, so try to remember it before reading further.

In the meantime, here are two lesser methods.

1) I cut and file my fingernails about once a weak, and yet the corners of my thumbnails are so sharp that I use them to cut paper along the perforations. If Euphie placed her hand on Suzaku's shoulder or had him put it there, she could have made a quick slash with her thumb across his throat which might have cut the skin and possibly severed a vital artery, depending on how dangerous her nails are compared to mine.

2) Euphie could have asked for a kiss, and for Suzaku to give her some tongue, and then bitten as hard as she could on the tongue, perhaps biting off the tip and perhaps causing Suzaku to bleed to death.

And the really easy method of killing, which the geass command had made Euphie use before, would be to ask Suzaku to get the captain of the Avalon on the intercom and then order the captain to kill Suzaku and any other Japanese aboard and fire the Avalon's weapons at any ghettos they passed over.

How could the geass command simply give up trying to make Euphie kill when she was still strong enough to talk and give commands, when she still had her deadliest power? If the geass command could take control of Euphie, why would it give up before or after taking control, if Euphie was still strong enough to talk and thus kill more Japanese people?

I say the only explanation for the fact that Euphemia didn't order the deaths of Suzaku and other Japanese on her deathbed was that she defeated the geass command when it tried to take back control and that it never gained enough control to make her say what it wanted her to say.

Euphie managed to defeat and escape from her geass command after perhaps minutes of obeying it, and then when it tried to regain control she defeated it again within seconds, despite being so much weaker physically after being shot, and she would have continued to defeat the geass command each and every time it tried to make her kill.

PS I just went back and checked all the posts from # 68 up to # 106. Every number from 68 to 106 is present in the thread, and I didn't see any post by you which responded to this part of my post # 68. (08/08/09, 10:50 pm)

PPS 08/09/09 about your point # 1 about going insane if you can't complete a geass task.

You give one example. Did the girl actually go crazy or did her family misinterpet her sane attempts to obey a geass command as evidence of insanity and lock her up by mistake?

Possibly people vary. I point out that Nunnally is the only person known to resist a double-eye geass command from Lelouch, Nunnally is the only person known to have broken a two-eyed geass (a forgetting geass from Charles), Euphemia is the only person known to have resisted a single-eyed geass command, and Euphemia is the only person who broke a geass command, (in the sickbay as my post # 83 points out and possibly earlier when talking to Lelouch).

And the gods did not do any of those things I hear. So in some respects Euphemia and Nunnally are greater than the gods, let alone normal Humans. If there is any possibility that Humans vary in how crazy failure to complete a geass-imposed task may make them, you can bet that Nunnally and Euphemia would go the least crazy or stay completely sane.

proEuphie
08-08-2009, 09:21 PM
Since I responded to both of those posts, I have obviously seen them and have given arguments (and evidence of those arguments) to both of them and to the good majority of the posts that you have made so far. However, if you are trying to make a point, you are the one who has the burden of proof here. Its your job to make sure that we understand what you are talking about (if that's even possible). Merely directing people to your posts does not help people to understand (long blocks of text rarely do).

If I do not understand what you saying, rereading the same post that already doesn't make sense to me to begin with over and over and over again is not going to make it any better. You have the burden of proof here.

While watching R2 is not neccessary for a general discussion about Euphemia (again, she only appeared in 18 of 50 episodes), it is if you want to talk about specifics of the Geass and the characters affected by them.

You are not going to "enlighten" me by watching the second season. Since I have seen it in both English and Japanese, seen the extra material and read the guidebook, there is very little that you can say that I don't already know. Watching the second season would have helped you form stronger arguments and you would have avoided bringing up things that have already been proven:

1. Going crazy when one can't perform the actions of the Geass (the girl who made the crosses on the wall completely lost it when she was sent back to the mainland).

2. Nunnally breaking a double-eyed Geass (had you watched R2, you would have known that Charles had the Geass in both of his eyes).

3. Lelouch using the Geass on his sister.

Merely discussing Euphemia does not require that you watch the whole series. Getting into specifics about the Geass does.

You say that you have read my post # 68 and my post # 83 and responded to my arguments in them. I make only one argument in my post # 83 and I do not remember any of your posts mentioning my argument in post # 83.

Here is my post # 83 repeated again:

"Apparently nobody read all of my post # 68.

It has always been debated whether the geass failed to take control of Euphemia in the sickbay because it realized that she was too weak to kill and thus gave up trying to make her kill, or because she defeated the geass command.

As I said near the bottom of post # 68, on Saturday, 08/01/09, I remembered what we all knew and what we all should have remembered months ago. Euphemia was certainly strong enough to kill Suzaku and other Japanese people while she was struggling with the geass command in the sickbay.

Afterward, she continued to use, in a nonviolent manner, a power or ability which can be used to kill one person or countless millions of persons when used in a violent manner. It is a skill which makes each of us potentially capable of destroying all life on Earth.

Many people have used that talent or ability to save or harm people born decades, or centuries, or thousands of years later than their own deaths. Many people who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago have used that skill to change the way we live our lives today.

If you haven't yet remembered such an obvious thing, which I felt so stupid for not remembering months ago, it is a power which the geass command had made her use to kill Japanese people. So the geass command should have been able to remember making her kill that way before, and if it didn't have any memory it should have thought of using that killing method just as easy and fast as it thought of using that killing method the first time.

So if you haven't remembered it yet, you'd better think fast, or wait some minutes before you read on.

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And that power to save or kill which Euphie was still strong enough to use was:

Talking.

Euphemia could have asked Suzaku to get the captain of the Avalon on the intercom. And then she could have ordered the captain to kill Suzaku and any other Japanese (prisoners, honorary Britannians, etc.) aboard, and head for the nearest ghetto to blast it with the Avalon's weapons!!

Yes, the geass command knew that Euphemia was still strong enough to kill. So Euphemia defeated and broke it for the first or the second time in the sickbay,"

Please give me the numbers of any posts in which you discuss this argument.

PS I just went back and checked all the posts from # 68 up to # 106. Every number from 68 to 106 is present in the thread, and I didn't see any post by you which responded to my post # 83. (08/08/09, 10:50 pm)

PPS 08/09/09 about your point # 1 about going insane if you can't complete a geass task.

You give one example. Did the girl actually go crazy or did her family misinterpet her sane attempts to obey a geass command as evidence of insanity and lock her up by mistake?

Possibly people vary. I point out that Nunnally is the only person known to resist a double-eye geass command from Lelouch, Nunnally is the only person known to have broken a two-eyed geass (a forgetting geass from Charles), Euphemia is the only person known to have resisted a single-eyed geass command, and Euphemia is the only person who broke a geass command, (in the sickbay as my post # 83 points out and possibly earlier when talking to Lelouch).

And the gods did not do any of those things I hear. So in some respects Euphemia and Nunnally are greater than the gods, let alone normal Humans. If there is any possibility that Humans vary in how crazy failure to complete a geass-imposed task may make them, you can bet that Nunnally and Euphemia would go the least crazy or stay completely sane.

proEuphie
08-08-2009, 09:56 PM
Woohoo, more to read.

Just FYI, I did read the bible. It was shorter. It was a pocket bible, but I think it was still shorter.

Now the Wheel of Time series...that was longer. There's a book to base a religion off of ;)

Anyway, ProEuphie, posts 83 and 68 have been countered effectively.
If I wasn't really hungry and didn't have to pee, I' might join in and re-watch the entire fiasco. I might even re-read this thread. But I have to pee, and then eat, and by then I'll have forgotten what I was doing and play a game or watch TV. But I might be back. So I guess my god-knowledge will have to wait.

Also, for the rest of us, I plan on condensing this thread a little. I'll post summaries of the posts for everybody else, weather they care or not.

EDIT: Somehow I came back, but I've decided to rewatch episodes 22 and 23 of Lelouch of the Rebellion. "Bloodstained Euphie" and "At Least with Sorrow".

Here are magical links.
Episode 22, "Bloodstained Euphie" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78CzAROPlok) discussion starts at 16:06.
Episode 23, "At Least with Sorrow" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeKn91zt5SA)

I just went back and checked all the posts from # 68 up to # 106. Every number from 68 to 106 is present in the thread, and I didn't see any post in which my post # 83 and the important part of post # 68 is countered effectively by anybody. (08/08/09, 10:50 pm).

Please give me the numbers of any posts which discuss my argument in the seventh section of text in post # 68 and in post # 83.

proEuphie
08-09-2009, 03:09 PM
The geass almost controlled Euphemia.




A kid ALMOST running away does not mean that he ran away. A prisoner ALMOST breaking out of jail does not mean that he got out. A slave ALMOST getting away does not mean that he escaped. So, Euphemia ALMOST escaping the Geass does not she that she broke it. Its all or nothing. IF she had ALMOST escaped the Geass, it means that she DIDN'T escape the Geass, which, again, is what you asked about. She either completely broke the control of the Geass or she didn't (in which case, she would still be controlled). Since red circles in the eyes means that she was still being controlled by the Geass (no matter how much control or resistance may have been there), she never escaped the Geass, especially since it popped back up again before she died.:rolleyes:



Look at it from the point of the geass. Is almost making Euphemia do something just as good as making her do something? Didn't you say it is all or nothing?

I say that the geass was not making her do anything to find and kill more Japanese while she was talking to Lelouch and afterward. So at that time the geass may have almost succeeded in controling her, but almost is not the same as controlling her. It is all or nothing, you say. Almost controlling Euphie is not as good as controlling Euphie.

The geass failed to keep on controlling her. So Euphemia succeeded in freeing herself from it, because almost making her look for people to kill is not the same as making her look for people to kill.

I imagined that when the geass command had control of Euphemia and made her kill Japanese it had 100% of the control it needed to make her do things. And then she defeated it and reduced it's control until it had only about 10 % of the control it needed to make her do things.

At that time I still thought that Nunnally defeated her blindness geass totally. My post # 89 shows that was probably not the case. So I wrote that Euphemia about 90% defeated her geass command in about 8 to 80 minutes, which was tens of thousands of times faster than Nunnally totally defeated her geass command in eight years. That implies that Euphemia would have totally defeated her geass command in a few more minutes, much, much, faster than Nunnally defeated her geass.

I didn't want to make an exaggerated claim, after all, just something that everyone could agree was probably correct.

But you seem to believe that I said that the geass command had 2000% of the needed control when it was making Euphemia do things, and thus when she 90 % defeated it it still had 200 % control left, still twice as much as was needed to make her do things. That is not what I meant, since the geass was not making her do things. Almost making Euphie ask Zero to help her massacre the Japanese is not the same as making Euphie ask Zero to help her massacre the Japanese.

Didn't you once write that you are in the military? You seemed to believe that I wrote that Euphemia came close to defeating the geass "army", within 10% of inflicting enough damage to defeat it, while what I wrote is that Euphemia 90% defeated the geass "army", meaning that she defeated it and killed, wounded, captured, and chased away 90 % of the geass "soldiers" on the "battlefield", leaving just 10 % of the geass "forces" still hopelessly trying to fight on and turn the tide of battle. That "army" would be almost strong enough to have a chance of victory, but almost strong enough is not the same as strong enough.

I think you will agree that an army that is 90% defeated in that sense is very much defeated. And I think my post # 109 and post # 112 show that was pretty much the condition of the geass "army" trying to make Euphemia do things (and merely almost succeeding) while she was talking to Lelouch.

I think that the military analogy is more fitting than the ones that you used. In battle, it is not all or nothing. Armies do not fight on until one side or the other is 100% killed as when children play toy soldiers. Instead the loosing army usually retreats when it loses abut 10% of its men. If victory was all or nothing, no general in history, not Alexander, not Hannibal, not Caesar, not Frederick the Great, not Napoleon, etc., would ever have achieved a single victory.

proEuphie
08-09-2009, 03:50 PM
When Ignorance Really Was Bliss




I would have been amazed if Euphemia broke the Geass and returned to reality in the middle of a battlefield (holding a gun), while being surrounded by carnage and destruction, and yet, act calm and collected about it.


You say that the geass does not change people's personalities. When Kallen bumped Euphie's nightmare, Euphie said something like "Are you Japanese? How dare you do this to Princess Euphemia Li Britannia?" And she sounded scared in the first sentence. Euphemia was fearless when rescuing other people but was never seen being brave when attacking or fighting other people. So she would have been her usual timid self when she obeyed the geass command, and thus was frightened when Kallen bumped her nightmare.

And what did Lelouch do soon after? He destroyed Euphemia's nightmare, slicing it up into pieces. Euphemia crawled out of the wreckage and found herself facing two powerful nightmares. I believe that after shooting at the nightmares and then apologizing to Lelouch Euphemia then defeated the geass command and awoke from the geass trance not knowing what had happened or where she was.

You wrote: "I would have been amazed if Euphemia broke the Geass and returned to reality in the middle of a battlefield (holding a gun), while being surrounded by carnage and destruction, and yet, act calm and collected about it."

But wouldn't it be more amazing if the geass command still controlled Euphemia and she knew what had happened and how she got there and was still so calm? If she had not forgotten about her nightmare being destroyed, probably by Lelouch as far as she knew, and had not forgotten that she had been massacring the people that Lelouch was the protector and avenger of, how could she be so calm when talking to him? And why wouldn't she be trying to find out his intentions?

Wasn't "returning to reality in the middle of a battlefield (holding a gun), while being surrounded by carnage and destruction", much less frightening than being there knowing the frightening truth (in this case) of how you got there?

Forgetting about the massacre, because the geass command no longer controlled her, is the only explanation for Euphemia's calmness and her not trying to find out what Zero would do about the massacre.

And see my post # 112.

proEuphie
08-09-2009, 04:28 PM
Do the Eyes Have it? # 2





Since red circles in the eyes means that she was still being controlled by the Geass (no matter how much control or resistance may have been there), she never escaped the Geass, especially since it popped back up again before she died.:rolleyes:

But I keep writing that the red circles do not prove that the geass command controls someone, but merely that the geass command controls someone or is trying to control someone. As my post # 83 points out, in the sickbay Euphemia was still mentally and physically strong enough to speak sentences which made sense long after the red eye circles were gone. If she could talk, she could command. If she could command, she could kill. If the geass command knew that Euphie could talk it knew that she could still kill. Therefore the geass command would not have given up trying to control Euphie because of her physical weakness. Therefore Euphie defeated her geass command in the sickbay.

After Euphie struggled against the geass command and said she couldn't do such a terrible thing, she was quiet and the red circles remained in her eyes for a brief period before fading away. Euphemia was not controlled by the geass command then, or she would have ordered that Suzaku and/or other Japanese people be killed. There were red circles in her eyes when she was not controlled by the geass command. Possibly the geass command might have been close to controlling her at once point while the red circles were in her eyes, but you say almost doesn't matter.

You say it is all or nothing. So therefore the red circles in the eyes do not prove that the geass controls someone. They prove that the geass controls someone or is trying to control someone.

So the red circles in Euphie's eyes right before Lelouch shot her do not prove that she was controlled by the geass. They prove that the geass was controlling her or trying to control her. And other evidence just about proves (see my post #109 and # 112) that the geass was not controlling her but trying to control her.

And I don't think that the geass coming back proves that Euphemia did not defeat it. See my posts # 89 and 90

blackrosetwilight
08-09-2009, 04:36 PM
What you can''t seem to realize is that Lelouch let Euphemia pick up and keep a machine gun and then left the safety of his armored nightmare to walk up to her. It seems that Lelouch knew that Euphemia's normal self would never want to harm him and that the geass command would never make her shoot him unless he acted overtly hostile. Suspicion of possible hostile intent would not be enough to make the geass act.


Ok I think you forgotten that there's no way could Lelouch have been able to prevented her from picking up that machine, one Lelouch is "WEAK" as hell(probably just slightly stronger than Nunnally) and could not hop across the stadium like Spin-zaku can to get that gun away from her, two him trying to take away the gun is a hostile act and she would've indeed shot him for trying to stop her. As for the only reason why Euphy might not have taken Lelouch pointing a gun at her as an hostile act is probably because Lelouch done so several time before and never shot her, so why would this time be any diffrent, but remember she under the control of the geass but still has her over trusting nature so that might also factor in why she didnt see Lelouch as hostile.

proEuphie
08-09-2009, 10:11 PM
Ok I think you forgotten that there's no way could Lelouch have been able to prevented her from picking up that machine, one Lelouch is "WEAK" as hell(probably just slightly stronger than Nunnally) and could not hop across the stadium like Spin-zaku can to get that gun away from her, two him trying to take away the gun is a hostile act and she would've indeed shot him for trying to stop her. As for the only reason why Euphy might not have taken Lelouch pointing a gun at her as an hostile act is probably because Lelouch done so several time before and never shot her, so why would this time be any diffrent, but remember she under the control of the geass but still has her over trusting nature so that might also factor in why she didnt see Lelouch as hostile.

You are making the same mistake you made before. You are talking about events in episode 22 in response to my mention of events in episode 23. I am talking about the machine gun which Euphemia picked up after her nightmare was destroyed. Euphemia was perfectly helpless after her nightmare was destroyed and she faced two of the most powerful nightmares in the world.

Then Euphemia picked up a machine gun and she was no longer helpless against any civilians who might have appeared on the scene. She could have mowed them down, if they were Japanese and she was still controlled by the geass when they appeared..

But she was still helpless against the armored nightmares. Her bullets bounced off the Gawain like crazy.

Lelouch, CC, and Kallen could have stopped Euphie from picking that machine gun up, by blasting her into a thousand pieces, by putting a giant robot hand between her and the machine gun, and in a number of other ways I am not faimiliar enough with their nightmares to think of.

And once Euphie picked up the machine gun they could have instantly begun to take it away from her, by grabbing the machine gun between two giant robot fingers, lifting it about eight feet in the air, and shaking until Euphie let go. Or they could have grabbed the gun in one robot hand and Euphemia's torso in another hand, and pulled the two hands apart until Euphie let go.

Even with a machine gun, Euphie was totally helpless against the two nightmares. Lelouch and Co. had total control and Euphie had none. Euphie was totally at heir mercy. So why didn't they show her mercy?

What possible justification can there be for for killing someone who you can capture by simply picking them up in a hand of your giant robot? What imaginable justification can there be for killing someone who will be totally harmless if you simply use a giant robot hand to prevent them from picking a machine gun off the ground or simply pull the machine gun out of their hands using a giant robot hand?

The latter part of your post seems to be talking about how Euphie trusted Lelouch as he walked toward her right before shooting her in episode 23. You say that Euphie's trusting nature, even when controlled by the geass, made her unafraid of Zero/Lelouch, even though when they met in "Island of the Gods" Euphie was afraid Lelouch might kill her.

Euphemia knew her brother Lelouch was the dreaded rebel leader Zero, commander of the Black Knights. She knew that the Guren nightmare was commanded by a girl whose voice she recognized as belonging to a Black Knight who looked like a Britannian girl. When Zero emerged from the Gawain she knew that both nightmares were Black Knight vehicles. Euphemia knew that Zero claimed to be the protector and avenger of the Japanese, and thus might violently interfere with anti-Japanese actives like, for example, massacring them. Euphemia knew that the Black Knights obeyed Lelouch's orders and did what he wanted them to do. Euphemia knew that her nightmare had been sliced to pieces, and should have deduced that one of the two Black Knight nightmares probably did it, and thus that Lelouch sanctioned an attack on her nightmare -- and she might have even detected the Gawain attacking her nightmare.

The geass command knew everything that Euphie knew, and so should have been afraid that Zero might interfere with the massacre. The geass command was probably pleased that Euphie blurted out an apology to Zero and that Zero was coming out of the safety of his nightmare, apparently to talk with Euphie.

And then Euphie suddenly freed herself from the control of the geass and woke from the geass trance. She found herself in a strange place and didn't know where or when she was, but at least she recognized the familiar mask of Zero, who she knew was her beloved brother. Euphie didn't remember the massacre or her nightmare being destroyed by the Black knight nightmares, so she now had no reason to fear Lelouch/Zero. See my post # 109 "When ignorance Really Was Bliss".

blackrosetwilight
08-09-2009, 11:42 PM
Even with a machine gun, Euphie was totally helpless against the two nightmares. Lelouch and Co. had total control and Euphie had none. Euphie was totally at heir mercy. So why didn't they show her mercy?

What possible justification can there be for for killing someone who you can capture by simply picking them up in a hand of your giant robot? What imaginable justification can there be for killing someone who will be totally harmless if you simply use a giant robot hand to prevent them from picking a machine gun off the ground or simply pull the machine gun out of their hands using a giant robot hand?.
You see proEuphy you forget that she's a princess and also the newly appointed governer of Area 11, so even without a gun she still has her political/royal power to command more troops to attack. Please remember even if Lelouch tried to capture the geass would've consider Lelouch a threat against the command given to her so she would've retaliated during or even after the capture getting herself killed either way. Also I dont think anybody mentioned this that a geass still works even after the user dies, something we find out at the end of season two.

suzumi
08-10-2009, 02:01 PM
Euphemia is dead. And no matter what you say, or how much you argue how she could have been saved, she wasn't. Euphemia is dead, and she did NOT break the geass before she died.

Do you understand?

proEuphie
08-10-2009, 09:29 PM
You see proEuphy you forget that she's a princess and also the newly appointed governer of Area 11, so even without a gun she still has her political/royal power to command more troops to attack. Please remember even if Lelouch tried to capture the geass would've consider Lelouch a threat against the command given to her so she would've retaliated during or even after the capture getting herself killed either way. Also I dont think anybody mentioned this that a geass still works even after the user dies, something we find out at the end of season two.

1) So you say that she was not politically powerless.

But Euphemia, under the control of her geass command, scattered her soldiers to hunt down the fleeing Japanese. Thus when the Black Knights arrived they could defeat the little groups of hunting Britannian foot soldiers and nightmares in detail, as the military expression goes.

Not a single living and fighting Britannian soldier is seen in the scene where Lelouch shoots Euphie. If Euphie was still surrounded by foot soldiers and nightmares and other weapons even the Guren and the Gawain together would have a hard time killing or capturing her.

Lelouch parked the Gawain in or near the stadium when he arrived, thus when Euphie started the massacre and Lelouch made it back to the Gawain, he was ideally placed to find Euphemia and kill her or use her as a hostage to force the Britannians to stop fighting.

but when the next episode opens we seen Lelouch in the Gawain leading the Black Knights to the stadium. Lelouch may have fought and been driven away by all the soldiers and weapons that Cornelia put in the stadium to protect Euphemia in case something went wrong, or else he decided the odds were too great and went to bring back the Black Knights without even trying to fight.

But when the Black Knights came the Britannians were scattered and were easy to defeat. So if Lelouch had gone through with his original plan to make Euphie shoot him and then come back to life and spark the revolution, the Black Knights probably would have found the Britannians all massed in the stadium and would probably have been defeated by them.

Unless Lelouch omitted, for reasons of time, to tell Euphemia everything he planned to make her do. Perhaps his orders to her would have included gathering a bunch of Japanese prisoners near the stage to witness the miracle when he came back to life, and having the soldiers chase the Japanese people out of the stadium and hunt them down to kill. Thus the Britannians would have been just as scattered and just as easy for the Black Knights to defeat as in the actual massacre. And just about as many Japanese would have been killed as were killed in the Fuji Massacre.

What a choice for Lelouch's original plan to disrupt the opening of the SAZ. Either it was impractical and would have gotten the Black Knights defeated by the Britannians massed in the stadium, or else it was evil. It was already evil enough with tricking thousands of Japanese to get killed for his revolution when Lelouch was shot and then came back to life, so having the Britannians hunt down and kill thousands more Japanese would make it even more evil.

Anyway, Euphie was powerless as far as using her men to fight and protect her, when Lelouch found her in episode 23. Her soldiers were all out of sight hunting down Japanese people. Once her nightmare was destroyed she had no radio to call for help with, and they would have been too far away to respond in time.

She was just one helpless girl facing two of the most powerful war machines in the world. She was totally at their mercy. So why didn't they show her mercy and capture her instead of killing her?

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2) But Euphemia's political power, which was not able to protect her from Lelouch since her loyal followers were too far away to rescue her, meant that she would make a great hostage to stop the massacre with.

If Lelouch captured her and tuned his radio to Britannian command frequencies, he could order Euphie to call off the massacre. When she refused, he could shock her with juice from some of the electrical wires in the Gawain, if he didn't happen to have an electrical stun gun or a cattle prod or a Klingon pain stick or something similar.

Euphie would scream and beg him to stop and promise to call off the massacre. When he stopped the geass command would keep her from canceling the massacre. So Lelouch would shock her again and she would scream and beg and promise to call of the massacre, and then not do so when Lelouch stopped and the geass prevented her.

After a few times Lelouch would ask the soldiers on the other end of the line if they believed any sane person could force herself to endure such pain for the sake of killing people, especially such a gentle girl as Princess Euphemia. If they called and asked Cornelia's office they would be told that the massacre was not ordered or approved by Cornelia. Therefore Euphemia must have gone insane and ordered a massacre which was completely against everything that she believed in. Therefore they had no obligation to obey the insane order but they did have an obligation to protect their princess from torture by disobeying that insane order.

Of course by the time that Euphemia was talking to Lelouch she was defeating her geass command. She was not doing anything to find more Japanese to kill. If Lelouch noticed that he might have hoped that Euphie might soon call off the massacre of her own free will.

I say that giving up the possible advantages of using Euphie as a hostage was treason against the cause of the Black Knights.

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3) You think that Euphie could not have been taken alive. Her normal self would rather surrender than die, and even a geass command might calculate it was better to give up and have a chance of resuming the mission later rather than being killed and never resuming the mission.

Lelouch did not think Euphie would fight and get herself killed and maybe him as well.

He let her pick up and keep a machine gun and then left the safety of his armored nightmare to walk toward Euphemia protected only by her unwillingness to kill him. And that was before he had any evidence that she was breaking free of the geass command. He believed that he if behaved in a nonthreatening way the geass command would let him get really close to Euphie. And if my opponents were right about Euphie still being controlled by the geass (they are wrong) Lelouch was right about how safe it was for him to get really close to her while she was controlled by the geass.

In either case,it was safe for Lelouch to get really close to Euphie. And that meant that he could have captured her alive without her fighting and getting killed.

My post # 28 on the second page of this thread lists 15 ways Lelouch could have captured Euphie alive. And I have thought of a few more since I wrote it. Even if you decide that it would be more correct to list only ten ways or five ways that Lelouch could have captured Euphie alive, what good would that do for your argument? How would that make killing Euphemia any less murder?

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4) You say that at the end of the second season it was revealed that a geass works on even after the geass user who gave it is dead. Do you think that helps your argument? We are talking about whether Euphemia escaped from her geass before Lelouch shot her and again in the sickbay of the Avalon. Since that was a year before Lelouch's too long delayed death the question of whether the geass com4mand would go on after his death is irrelevant.

IcePriestess in post # 38 says that Nunnally escaped from her blindness geass after Charles who gave it died, and suggests that the geas was weakened by Charles's death, making it easier for nunnally to break the geass. She tried to prove that Euphemia could not have escaped from her geass command since Lelouch was still alive.

If you are correct about geass commands retaining their force after the geass user who gave them dies, then you have refuted IcePriestess's argument that it would have been harder for Euphemia to escape from her geass while Lelouch was alive.

Bonedeath
08-10-2009, 09:45 PM
Euphemia is dead. And no matter what you say, or how much you argue how she could have been saved, she wasn't. Euphemia is dead, and she did NOT break the geass before she died.


The poor horse is beaten beyond recognition like proEuphie rep.

proEuphie
08-10-2009, 10:39 PM
Euphemia is dead. And no matter what you say, or how much you argue how she could have been saved, she wasn't. Euphemia is dead, and she did NOT break the geass before she died.

Do you understand?

Euphemia is as dead as Sherlock Holmes was between "the Final problem" and "The Empty house". She is as dead as Dr. Marc Duquesne between Skylark Three and Skylark of Valeron.

And no matter how much you argue that Euphemia wasn't saved, the fact that she wasn't means that Lelouch was evil.

I say that my posts # 105, and 106 prove that she must have broken her geass command in the sickbay.

I say that my posts # 109 and 112 prove that she broke her geass command before, while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.

proEuphie
08-10-2009, 10:42 PM
The poor horse is beaten beyond recognition like proEuphie rep.

see my post # 117

proEuphie
08-10-2009, 11:16 PM
Nunally overcame not Lelouch's Geass, which is absolute order, but Charles, which is memory manipulation and it took years for her to do that. And by the way, Charles died, so maybe his Geass became weaker after his death. And Euphemia. That thought that she must kill all Japanese was inscrutable to her. That's why she was able to Resist it a little. But in the end, she didn't overcame it. Even though when Lelouch shot her, she said: Why? At that time she just regained her conscious a little, because of the pain and of surprise that Lelouch did shoot her. And when she didn't kill Suzaku. That was because her physical condition didn't let her. She just wasn't able to do it. So in the end she just manipulated by Geass and died without Escaping it.


Point # 4 from post # 115

4) You say that at the end of the second season it was revealed that a geass works on even after the geass user who gave it is dead. Do you think that helps your argument? We are talking about whether Euphemia escaped from her geass before Lelouch shot her and again in the sickbay of the Avalon. Since that was a year before Lelouch's too long delayed death the question of whether the geass command would go on after his death is irrelevant.

IcePriestess in post # 38 says that Nunnally escaped from her blindness geass after Charles who gave it died, and suggests that the geass was weakened by Charles's death, making it easier for nunnally to break the geass. She tried to prove that Euphemia could not have escaped from her geass command since Lelouch was still alive.

If you are correct about geass commands retaining their force after the geass user who gave them dies, then you have refuted IcePriestess's argument that it would have been harder for Euphemia to escape from her geass while Lelouch was alive.

wolfgirl90
08-11-2009, 04:48 PM
You say that the geass does not change people's personalities. When Kallen bumped Euphie's nightmare, Euphie said something like "Are you Japanese? How dare you do this to Princess Euphemia Li Britannia?" And she sounded scared in the first sentence. Euphemia was fearless when rescuing other people but was never seen being brave when attacking or fighting other people. So she would have been her usual timid self when she obeyed the geass command, and thus was frightened when Kallen bumped her nightmare.

Well, Euphemia has never actually been SEEN fighting another person, so there is no proof of how she "acts" when she is attacking or fighting. The closest we got was during the Battle of Narita but 1) she was not actually fighting and 2) this is the ONLY time that she was actually involved in a battle to begin with.

However, despite the fact that Euphemia is not one of my favorite characters, I would not go so far as to say that she is timid. She may be naive, innocent and kindhearted to a FAULT, but she is certainly not timid. I mean, she walked out to stop soldiers from attacking Suzaku and stayed there even when one of them used a Chaos Mine. She said "You dare raise a hand against Euphemia Li Britannia?" when Kallen struck her. How in the world does that sound like someone who lacks self-confidence? To me, saying that to someone who has better equipment than you is a sign that you have a big ego, not that that you are timid. Euphemia has done plenty of gutsy things, so I do not know where you got this idea of her being "timid".

In fact, you saying that she is is in complete contradiction to this strong, general-like goddess that you believe Euphemia to be.:rolleyes:


And what did Lelouch do soon after? He destroyed Euphemia's nightmare, slicing it up into pieces. Euphemia crawled out of the wreckage and found herself facing two powerful nightmares. I believe that after shooting at the nightmares and then apologizing to Lelouch Euphemia then defeated the geass command and awoke from the geass trance not knowing what had happened or where she was.

Well, after she apologized to Lelouch, she said "I thought you were one of them". Pretty harsh words to use when you are talking about the Japanese people that you loved so much and even tried to help.:rolleyes:


Wasn't "returning to reality in the middle of a battlefield (holding a gun), while being surrounded by carnage and destruction", much less frightening than being there knowing the frightening truth (in this case) of how you got there?

It would be less frightening, yes, but in the same way that suddenly finding your entire family dead in your house is "less" frightening than finding your entire family dead in your house and THEN finding out that you are the one who killed them. Both events are frighting, even mind-jarring.

As far as Euphemia knows, she was standing in a room talking to her half-brother about helping the Japanese with the SAZ. If she broke the Geass, she would suddenly find herself covered in blood, dress in rags, with the bodies of slaughtered Japanese surrounding her (and the ones still alive screaming for mercy) and the SAZ in total ruin. Like any person, that would scare the ever loving crap out of her. To make matters worse, she was holding a gun, so if she put two and two together, I can only imagine that that would be utterly devastating.


Forgetting about the massacre, because the geass command no longer controlled her, is the only explanation for Euphemia's calmness and her not trying to find out what Zero would do about the massacre.

That doesn't make sense, at least not in the case that she broke the Geass.

It seems that you are splitting hairs. She either completely defeated and escaped the control of the Geass (and therefore broke it) or she did not. There is no in between in this matter. You seem to be saying is that she defeated the Geass, but did not completely escape its control. She defeated the Geass enough to forget about the massacre she JUST caused but not enough to snap her into reality to where she would most likely break down at the site of all the carnage; remaining calm after a mind-shattering experience like that would be impossible for someone like Euphemia.

When it came to that army analogy, you have to clarify by what you mean by "90% defeated". If an army has lost 90% of its men, then yeah, they are pretty much defeated (note: "pretty much"). However, if the purpose of the battle or war is to completely eliminate the enemy (which is usually the case), then defeating only 90% of them is not going to cut it. Its especially a problem when, not only was the army NOT defeated in the first place, but they came back! And at a time when you are weak.:closedeye

Euphemia achieving defeat of 90% of the Geass (again, your speculation, not mine) means absolutely nothing so long as only COMPLETELY defeating (meaning 100%) means that one broke it and escaped its control. We saw what only 90% defeat of the Geass got for Euphemia. IT CAME BACK!!


So the red circles in Euphie's eyes right before Lelouch shot her do not prove that she was controlled by the geass. They prove that the geass was controlling her or trying to control her.

The point I have been making is that red eyes mean that the Geass is still there, whether its completely in control, partially in control, or if the person is resisting. So as long as the Geass is STILL THERE (and the command is active), it has not been broken and the person will have red eyes. Euphemia having red eyes means that she didn't break the Geass, no matter how much of it that she "defeated".


Euphemia is as dead as Sherlock Holmes was between "the Final problem" and "The Empty house".

Well, not only was Sherlock Holmes brought back in "The Empty House" due to fan pressure but how he survived that fall was explained in the same book. Holmes never died.

However, Euphemia is dead. Quite dead. We saw her get shot. He saw all that blood she lost. We saw her die. We saw her grave. Heck, Britannia took credit for her death by saying that they were the ones that killed her. So she is dead and there is no way work around that one.

Now, is there a chance that she might come back in an alternate Code Geass manga? Yes. In fact, it has already happened, which is what I have been saying this whole time.:banghead:

blackrosetwilight
08-11-2009, 10:24 PM
Ok proEuphy, you win Lelouch could've saved her but he chose not to, end of story, since there's no point in continuing that circle. Back to the geass, like wolfgirl90 stated many times before the "red ring" is evidence the geass is still in effect and it took effect again when she realized suzaku was japanese and if she had broken it would not have turn on again, also if Euphy didnt died at that moment and tried to kill Suzaku when her geass took effect again, Suzaku's geass would've turned on to save himself and he would've finished off Euphy... LOL talk about bad luck. I think Lelouch might of known this too, seeing two lovers and two friends kill each other,so why risk losing two life when you can take one to save the other.

proEuphie
08-11-2009, 10:25 PM
However, despite the fact that Euphemia is not one of my favorite characters, I would not go so far as to say that she is timid. She may be naive, innocent and kindhearted to a FAULT, but she is certainly not timid. I mean, she walked out to stop soldiers from attacking Suzaku and stayed there even when one of them used a Chaos Mine. She said "You dare raise a hand against Euphemia Li Britannia?" when Kallen struck her. How in the world does that sound like someone who lacks self-confidence? To me, saying that to someone who has better equipment than you is a sign that you have a big ego, not that that you are timid. Euphemia has done plenty of gutsy things, so I do not know where you got this idea of her being "timid".

In fact, you saying that she is is in complete contradiction to this strong, general-like goddess that you believe Euphemia to be.:rolleyes:



Your words that you would not call Euphemia timid despite her not being one of your favorite characters indicates that you consider timidity a negative quality. I suppose that means that if you had a chance to release some fictional kind of fear gas all over the world and make everyone cowardly you wouldn't do it.

So how many people do you know who have had to be snatched from the jaws of a man-eating monster or rescued from a burning building or otherwise needed brave heroes to save them? Probably a small percentage of the people you know in civilian life. Modern life is much safer than the lives of our ancestors a milion years ago.

You once wrote that you are in the military. That indicates that as a general rule most of your professional comrades are in the business of more or less rescuing the American (I presume) people from the dangers posed by brave people like them who work for other groups and causes. And many of them have needed or will need rescuing from brave people on the other side.

It seems to me that the job of the US military would be a lot easier if everyone else in the world was too cowardly to risk their lives in any type of war, guerrilla warfare, terrorism, rebellion, ethic conflict, etc. etc., and that everyone else in the world would not want one group to retain bravery when everyone else was cowardly. And if everyone was suddenly turned cowardly the number of lives that was saved by the end of war, crime, violence, and people taking foolish risks would probably be much greater than the number of lives that would be lost by people not having brave rescuers around when they needed them.

So I consider it a compliment to call someone timid, especially if they are brave when it comes to rescuing other people from danger, and only then.

Your example of Euphemia being fearless when protecting Suzaku agrees with my claim that she was fearless and brave whenever she saw someone in danger.

I once read that Admiral Horatio Nelson seemed rather frightened when his host. William Beckford, drove their carriage at a reckless speed, and the author explained that it was one thing to be brave when it was your duty and thousands of men depended on your instructions, and another thing not to be scared when someone risked your life for no good reason in civilian life. And no doubt the reckless carriage driver William Beckford would have been terrified to ride around in a modern auto at a typical speed that the most cowardly modern people take for granted.

So I think that it would be perfectly possible for someone to be fearless when protecting other people from danger and yet timid in the face of military conflict.

And I thingk what really frightens Euphemia is agruements or diagreements with the people she loves, most of whom she sometimes believes sometimes do very evil things which it may be her reluctant duty to protest, despite all the stress it causes her.

Euphemia may or may not be brave enough to lead in battle from the front like Cornelia, but she is certainly brave enough to command from headquarters far from the fighting like General Halleck in the US civil War or General Marshall in World War II, or even from a rear position just a few miles from the fighting lines as in the battle of Narita. Euphemia is certainly brave enough to be a Rooseveldt, a Churchill, a Lincoln, a Justinian, etc.

And Euphemia did more to end the rebellions in Japan with her SAZ plan that Cornelia accomplished with all her victories against various rebel groups. If the massacre command had not been given and Zero had permanently accepted the SAZ plan Cornelia would have had to admit that Euphemia was surprisingly good at grand strategy.

As for Euphemia's statement to Kallen, she could have had access to the information necessary to realize that the Guren was one of the most dangerous nightmares in Japan and far superior to her model. But there is no proof that she recognized the Guren. And when people are startled and scared sometimes they consciously or unconsciously bluff and say things to sound more confident than they are.

Euphie did not mention her nightmare when speaking to Kallen. I always thought she was referring to her exalted social position when asking how Kallen dared to attack her. But there is a possibility that for some reason, perhaps an agreement with Cornelia that would save many lives, Euphemia practiced military skills like nightmare piloting a lot more than she wanted to. So it is at least slightly possible that Euphemia had sacrificed a lot of her time practicing piloting nightmares despite her desire never to use that skill, and actually had a reputation as a great pilot whose pacifistic attitudes wasted her skills. And thus it is at least slightly possible that Euphemia might have been a little bit arrogant about her piloting skills.

I suppose the most literal-minded view of Euphemia's words, though probably not the most likely, would be that she was trying to scare off her attacker by mentioning her (possible) reputation as a great nightmare pilot. I believe that in movies and television words like Euphemia's are often spoken by skilled warriors trying to warn off the latest reckless enemy, and if this was the first time Euphemia appeared that might be your most natural reaction to her words.

Anyway, I suppose that Euphemia was not arrogant about her kills or her rank and probably not a skilled nightmare pilot but simply blurted out without thinking something to raise her confidence and hopefully lower that of the other nightmare's pilot.

Oloty
08-12-2009, 02:13 PM
I'm pretty sure that if she did escape it Lelouch would have known and wouldn't have shot her. Although it would have been better to do something like brainwash her of the memories of the people being called "Japanese". Even though if this was tried she most likely would have been brain washed of all thoughts, memories, and instances. Lelouch, Nunnally, and everyone else most likely could have helped regain certain memories. I personally think Lelouch should have at least waited before shooting is own sister.

proEuphie
08-13-2009, 10:13 PM
Ok proEuphy, you win Lelouch could've saved her but he chose not to, end of story, since there's no point in continuing that circle. Back to the geass, like wolfgirl90 stated many times before the "red ring" is evidence the geass is still in effect and it took effect again when she realized suzaku was japanese and if she had broken it would not have turn on again, also if Euphy didnt died at that moment and tried to kill Suzaku when her geass took effect again, Suzaku's geass would've turned on to save himself and he would've finished off Euphy... LOL talk about bad luck. I think Lelouch might of known this too, seeing two lovers and two friends kill each other,so why risk losing two life when you can take one to save the other.

Everyone says that Nunnaly broke her blindness geass. How many fictional days elapsed between that and the end of the series? And how many minutes was Nunnally seen on screen during that period? There is absolutely no proof that the blindness geass didn't sometimes try to make her blind again during that period or in the rest of her life after the series ended. There is no proof that Nunnally was not sometimes blind for minutes or seconds at a time before defeating the latest attempt of the geass.

So if Nunnally is believed to have defeated her geass why don't you just accept that Euphemia defeated her geass just as much as Nunnally?

After Euphemia struggled with the geasss command in the sickbay, she continued to talk rationally with Suzaku. If Euphemia could talk, Euphemia could order people killed. Didn't the soldiers who obeyed her orders kill many times as many Japanese people as Euphie shot with her machine gun or the cannon of her nightmare? And the geass command knew that. The geass command would never think that Euphie was too weak to kill and thus give up trying to control her if it knew that she could still talk.

Therefore Euphie, despite her feeble condition, defeated the geass command when it tried to regain control of her in the sickbay, and within seconds -- otherwise she would have ordered the deaths of Suzaku and/or other Japanese. The first time she failed to resist successfully and was controlled by the gesss command for minutes or hours, despite being physically much stronger. Isn't that inconsistent? Unless Euphemia's subconscious mind figured out how to defeat the geass command and did defeat it while she was talking to Lelouch, and thus could instantly remember how to do it when the geass tried to regain control in the sickbay.

An much better way for Lelouch to prevent two deaths would have been to grab Euphemia in the hand of his nightmare as soon as she crawled out of the wreckage of her nightmare, and try to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre. And not give her back to Suazaku without warning him that his girlfriend now had an insane compusion to kill Japanese people like him!

Luluko
08-13-2009, 10:56 PM
Everyone says that Nunnaly broke her blindness geass. How many fictional days elapsed between that and the end of the series? And how many minutes was Nunnally seen on screen during that period? There is absolutely no proof that the blindness geass didn't sometimes try to make her blind again during that period or in the rest of her life after the series ended. There is no proof that Nunnally was not sometimes blind for minutes or seconds at a time before defeating the latest attempt of the geass.

So if Nunnally is believed to have defeated her geass why don't you just accept that Euphemia defeated her geass just as much as Nunnally?

After Euphemia struggled with the geasss command in the sickbay, she continued to talk rationally with Suzaku. If Euphemia could talk, Euphemia could order people killed. Didn't the soldiers who obeyed her orders kill many times as many Japanese people as Euphie shot with her machine gun or the cannon of her nightmare? And the geass command knew that. The geass command would never think that Euphie was too weak to kill and thus give up trying to control her if it knew that she could still talk.

Therefore Euphie, despite her feeble condition, defeated the geass command when it tried to regain control of her in the sickbay, and within seconds -- otherwise she would have ordered the deaths of Suzaku and/or other Japanese. The first time she failed to resist successfully and was controlled by the gesss command for minutes or hours, despite being physically much stronger. Isn't that inconsistent? Unless Euphemia's subconscious mind figured out how to defeat the geass command and did defeat it while she was talking to Lelouch, and thus could instantly remember how to do it when the geass tried to regain control in the sickbay.

Nunnally defeating the Geass is debatable, since Charles re-wrote her memory as "she was blind due to trauma when Marianne was murdered". It was never said that she couldn't see again, it just took a big shock to make her open her eyes and see again. But did she defeat the Geass? My guess is not because she didn't pause and told herself: "Hey, dad did something weird to my memories... I don't remember watching my mother die at all..."

And with the Euphie thing, I already addressed that on one of my previous post. Not gonna go and say it again.


An much better way for Lelouch to prevent two deaths would have been to grab Euphemia in the hand of his nightmare as soon as she crawled out of the wreckage of her nightmare, and try to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre. And not give her back to Suazaku without warning him that his girlfriend now had an insane compusion to kill Japanese people like him!

I also mentioned this on one of my post. Lelouch couldn't just take Euphie and make her a hostage, things would've turned out worst. Also, why reveal the power of the Geass? Just to explain Euphie's behavior? Again, that would've been the worst case scenario.

proEuphie
08-14-2009, 10:34 AM
Nunnally defeating the Geass is debatable, since Charles re-wrote her memory as "she was blind due to trauma when Marianne was murdered". It was never said that she couldn't see again, it just took a big shock to make her open her eyes and see again. But did she defeat the Geass? My guess is not because she didn't pause and told herself: "Hey, dad did something weird to my memories... I don't remember watching my mother die at all..."

And with the Euphie thing, I already addressed that on one of my previous post. Not gonna go and say it again.

You didn't address it very well.

Euphemia in the sickbay did not say things like: "Black tools very faster red bucket." or "sail to sky cloud loudness." All of her sentences were grammatically correct and understandable. And she did not ask Suzaku to eat only green-skinned children, not purple-skinned children, in the future. She didn't ask Suzaku to shoot a green flying shark. She didn't ask Suzaku if she had done well at dueling the ambassador from Mars, or at solving a crossword puzzle tattooed on the side of a six-legged elephant. Euphemia talked about matters which made sense in the situation.

Her mental and physical condition in the sickbay was not bad enough to prevent her from giving orders to kill that might be obeyed. How could Euphemia or the geass command simply assume that the odds that an order to kill from her would be obeyed were so low, (ten percent?, one percent?, 0.1 percent?) that it wasn't even worth trying? No matter how low the geass command estimated the odds, it would have to make Euphie try it. Unless the geass command believed that trying to make Euphemia physically kill Suzaku had a better chance of success, which might be ruined by trying to to give an order which might warn him. But the geass command did not make her try to kill Suzaku physically, Anyway, success in killing Suzaku would not be nearly as lethal as success in ordering the Avalon to attack at least one Japanese ghetto.

The geass command didn't make Euphie give a command to kill, therefore it never gained sufficient control of her to make her do anything. Therefore Euphemia defeated the attempt by her geass command to regain control in the sickbay. And very rapidly too. Her defeat of the geass command in the sickbay (and thus Suzaku's survival) only makes sense if she defeated the geass command before and thus knew exactly what to do to defeat it within seconds of becoming aware of it trying to take control again.

It seems silly to suggest that Nunnally did not defeat her geass command in an attempt to make it seem less possible that Euphemia defeated her geass command.

Euphemia was conscious and could talk rationally after the geass command tried to make her kill. But she did not try to order anyone to kill Suzaku or any other Japanese person. Therefore she was free of the geass command while still strong enough to kill. Therefore the geass command did not give up trying to make her kill because it found that she was too weak. Therefore the geass command was defeated by Euphemia. I think that is very strong and very convincing logic.


I also mentioned this on one of my post. Lelouch couldn't just take Euphie and make her a hostage, things would've turned out worst. Also, why reveal the power of the Geass? Just to explain Euphie's behavior? Again, that would've been the worst case scenario.

Excuse me, how could things have turned out worse for the Black Rebellion and the Japanese if Lelouch took Euphemia as a hostage? Wasn't the Black Rebellion crushed? Weren't the Japanese punished with even stricter laws and fewer rights afterward?

Show me a logical sequence of events, each with at least a fifty percent probability of resulting from the previous one, which would have led from taking Euphie hostage to a worse result for the Japanese cause than the failure of the Black Rebellion as shown in the series?

If your proposed chain of events has two links each with a 50 % chance of following from the previous event, the end result will have only a 25 % chance of resulting from taking Euphie hostage. If it has three links with a 50% chance of resulting from the previous event, the end result will have a 12.5 % chance of resulting from taking Euphie hostage. If it has four links each with a fifty percent chance of resulting from the previous event the end result will have a 6.25 % chance of resulting from taking Euphie hostage. For your argument to be convincing you will have to have few links in your chain of events and prove that each of them has a very high probability of resulting from the previous event. Otherwise your predicted disaster will be only one of many possible results.

Why do you assume that making Euphie a hostage or simply a prisoner would require that Lelouch explain to the world that she was insane, or possessed, or bewitched, or under some kind of mind control? Why do you assume that explaining to the world that Euphemia was insane, or possessed, or bewitched, or under some kind of mind control would require revealing the truth about Lelouch's geass power?

Manhattan_Project_2000
08-14-2009, 11:34 AM
Can't we all just concede whatever point proEuphie is trying to make so (s)he'll shut up/die in a fire?

wolfgirl90
08-14-2009, 06:54 PM
Your words that you would not call Euphemia timid despite her not being one of your favorite characters indicates that you consider timidity a negative quality. I suppose that means that if you had a chance to release some fictional kind of fear gas all over the world and make everyone cowardly you wouldn't do it.

Once again, you made ONE assumption about me and my opinions and basically ran with it and made a huge post about it without any basis for it. By the way, while I really have no problem with civilians talking about the military, do not assume anything about my opinions based on what knowledge and opinions you may have on the military. I honestly do not care about what opinions you may have on the military (though I can take a really good guess), but don't assume anything about me based on it.:rolleyes:

Do I think that being timid is a negative quality in a person? No and my saying this effectively makes a large part of your post moot (you were better off asking me for clarification on the matter rather than making an incorrect assumption based on nothing). I do not think that being timid is a bad thing. HOWEVER, a person can't be timid and be a leader, soldier, police officer or a firefighter. These people can't be hesitant, fearful and lacking in self-confidence, especially when 2 seconds can mean the difference between life and death, and not just for another person but their OWN LIVES!! A person can be timid all they want and I wouldn't care but being timid is not a very good quality to have on the battlefield.

I do think that a person could be fearless while protecting people, but be timid during some sort of military conflict, however, that does not mean that the person is, overall, a timid person.

Because of this, despite what you say about the word "timid", I wouldn't call Euphemia an overall timid person. She has done quite a number of things that have proved that she is not timid. She is naive and quite politically and militarily challenged, but not timid. Although, even after you called her timid, and deemed it a compliment, you go on to mention the many things that Euphemia has done and even called her (and/or her actions) "brave", which is the very OPPOSITE definition of "timid".:rolleyes:


So if Nunnally is believed to have defeated her geass why don't you just accept that Euphemia defeated her geass just as much as Nunnally?

That would require acknowledging the fact that Euphemia defeated the Geass, which, as you can tell by this ENTIRE thread, I don't believe that she did. EVER. And once AGAIN, IF Euphemia defeated the Geass in the sickbay, that means she ONLY escaped its control while in the sickbay, NOT before she got shot, which is THE QUESTION that YOU are asking.:banghead:

I am working with evidence that has been given to us thus far about the characters, the Geass and how it works. Since you haven't seen more than HALF of the series, your knowledge of the characters and the Geass is not very strong, hence the reason why most of things that you have said so far could not only be refuted but was also common knowledge for people who have seen the entire series. Its kinda hard to argue about a series when you have seen less than half of it.;)

Also, most of things you have presented are pure speculation: Why didn't Euphemia do this? Why didn't she do that? If the Geass worked, why didn't she kill Suzaku? Why didn't Lelouch save her? Why did Euphemia stop shooting while she was still controlled by the Geass? Why did she say what she said? And you pretty much always say, "I guess...", "I guess..." "I guess...."

Those questions are not "evidence" of anything. Some of them have answers, others do not, but that does not mean that the questions that we can't answer are evidence to your point. Code Geass is a cartoon. There are only so many things that can be presented and only so many things that can be explained. Any evidence that you bring forward has to come from the series (and be easily proven) in order to prove your point and can not be speculation.

Why did Euphemia stop shooting when Lelouch was talking to her? Because it was in the script; the writers MADE it that way. Why didn't she kill Suzaku in the sickbay? Because the WRITERS made it that way. Why do ANY of the characters do ANYTHING? Because the writers made it that way. There is only so much that you can assume and speculate before the questions stop becoming evidence and end up being the proof of absolutely nothing. A cartoon has limits to its "reality" and not every single thing is going to operate like YOU expect it to (ie Euphemia killing Suzaku in the sickbay because the Geass "would" have made her) but will operate EXACTLY the way that the WRITERS expect it to (ie Euphemia NOT killing Suzaku in the sickbay).

You asked a question and we are giving solid and proven evidence (from the series) in order to answer your question. If your opinion about Euphemia is the ONLY basis for your some of your answers and the only one that ultimately matters, then you are better off putting this in your blog, not making a thread about it, since this is effectively going nowhere.:closedeye

Either you concide your point, since virtually everything that you have brought up, I (and everybody else) have refuted (and usually more than once) and still can until we reach the post limit or you can just say "Well, I like Euphemia, she is the best character ever, so I really do not care what you have to say about her" and end the thread right here.:rolleyes:

Rei
08-14-2009, 07:51 PM
...Euphemia never did defeat the Geass. Full stop before you make any more speculations. wolfgirl's right, what happens in the series is actually the truth; it is what the real scriptwriters have planned, it is what actually happens to Euphemia in the anime. You don't have to argue whether she is strong or weak or whatnot, because her life ends THERE. In that way, it already proves itself. We ALL know that you like Euphemia, it shows from your name; so why don't you just happily end this (Scratch that, make it all of your Euphemia-related) thread(s) right HERE and go on a rant of your favourite character.

The truth is: She did not overcome the Geass. Or she would not have BEEN DEAD, indirectly killed by it, in the first season.

proEuphie
08-14-2009, 11:02 PM
...Euphemia never did defeat the Geass. Full stop before you make any more speculations. wolfgirl's right, what happens in the series is actually the truth; it is what the real scriptwriters have planned, it is what actually happens to Euphemia in the anime. You don't have to argue whether she is strong or weak or whatnot, because her life ends THERE. In that way, it already proves itself. We ALL know that you like Euphemia, it shows from your name; so why don't you just happily end this (Scratch that, make it all of your Euphemia-related) thread(s) right HERE and go on a rant of your favourite character.

The truth is: She did not overcome the Geass. Or she would not have BEEN DEAD, indirectly killed by it, in the first season.

In order to avoid making the audience hate Lelouch too much, the real scriptwriters gave Euphemia a beautiful death scene, highly unlikely to result from Lelouch ordering the Black Knights to kill Euphemia.

Euphemia had to be conscious and able to speak and express her nobility and goodness for a beautiful death scene. She had to be uncontrolled by the geass, instead of shouting out orders to kill, kill, kill, for a beautiful death scene. Her boyfriend Suzaku had to be at her side for a beautiful death scene. Since Suzaku was there Euphemia had to be free of the control of the geass.

Since Euphemia had to be able to talk for her last words, the real scriptwriters had to write her as being still strong enough to speak. Thus she was still strong enough to give orders. Thus she was still strong enough to kill. Thus the logic of the scene forced the real scriptwriters to write that Euphemia was able to kill (by ordering others to kill) but not killing, and thus free from the control of the geass.

Since the geass command knew that Euphemia was still strong enough to kill, it would not have stopped trying to take her over because of her physical weakness.

Wolfgirl90 "proved" that when she wrote that Euphemia would have gone crazy looking for Japanese to kill if she was confined in an asylum for the rest of her life, and therefore she would be better off dead. That was one of my reasons for starting this thread. Proving that Euphemia was still controlled by the geass when talking to Lelouch or in the sickbay would disprove what Wolfgirl90 wrote, and thus show the geass command was easygoing and would not drive Euphie insane with constant pressure to obey. And thus that Euphie would not have been better off dead than confined to an asylum for the rest of her life.

Since Wolfgirl90 "proved" that the geass would relentlessly push Euphie to obey and kill for the rest of her life unless defeated, and since Euphie did not obey and kill when talking to Lelouch, even though Wolfgirl90 says that Euphie could hear living Japanese people screaming, and did not order Suzaku and/or other Japanese killed while she was in the sickbay, we can only conclude that therefore Euphemia defeated the geass.

Once the real scriptwriters made what I consider a terrible decision to have Lelouch give Euphemia the geass command and order the Black Knights to kill her, they had three choices:

1) Euphemia survives somehow, and nobody in the audience hates Lelouch for killing her, although some may hate him for ordering his men to kill her.

2) Have Euphemia die in a way that was likely to result from Lelouch ordering the Black Knights to kill her. Yuck! That would have made many in the audience hate Lelouch.

3) Give Euphemia the most beautiful and touching death scene possible, thus avoiding making the audience hate Lelouch for the brutal way Euphie dies. But that meant showing that she had defeated the geass, and thus that she was super humanly good and had super human power to resist geass. And thus making some members of the audience hate Lelouch for unnecessarily killing such a wonderful person, once they realize the truth.

The real scriptwriters consciously or unconsciously wrote a scene which clearly shows that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay. Whether they knew it consciously or not, that was the way they had to write the scene, once they decided to give Euphemia a touching death scene. Period.

Alkazor
08-15-2009, 10:37 AM
Can't we all just concede whatever point proEuphie is trying to make so (s)he'll shut up/die in a fire?

I like this post. Only thing I would change is that we should all agree that everybody EXCEPT ProEuphie is right, and THEN stop posting here. Since we've already done that, phase two can commence. All tasks at hand have been cleared, Lelouch vi Britannia commands you, do not post in this thread!

proEuphie
08-15-2009, 09:01 PM
Well, Euphemia has never actually been SEEN fighting another person, so there is no proof of how she "acts" when she is attacking or fighting. The closest we got was during the Battle of Narita but 1) she was not actually fighting and 2) this is the ONLY time that she was actually involved in a battle to begin with.

However, despite the fact that Euphemia is not one of my favorite characters, I would not go so far as to say that she is timid. She may be naive, innocent and kindhearted to a FAULT, but she is certainly not timid. I mean, she walked out to stop soldiers from attacking Suzaku and stayed there even when one of them used a Chaos Mine. She said "You dare raise a hand against Euphemia Li Britannia?" when Kallen struck her. How in the world does that sound like someone who lacks self-confidence? To me, saying that to someone who has better equipment than you is a sign that you have a big ego, not that that you are timid. Euphemia has done plenty of gutsy things, so I do not know where you got this idea of her being "timid".

In fact, you saying that she is is in complete contradiction to this strong, general-like goddess that you believe Euphemia to be.:rolleyes:



Well, after she apologized to Lelouch, she said "I thought you were one of them". Pretty harsh words to use when you are talking about the Japanese people that you loved so much and even tried to help.:rolleyes:



It would be less frightening, yes, but in the same way that suddenly finding your entire family dead in your house is "less" frightening than finding your entire family dead in your house and THEN finding out that you are the one who killed them. Both events are frighting, even mind-jarring.

As far as Euphemia knows, she was standing in a room talking to her half-brother about helping the Japanese with the SAZ. If she broke the Geass, she would suddenly find herself covered in blood, dress in rags, with the bodies of slaughtered Japanese surrounding her (and the ones still alive screaming for mercy) and the SAZ in total ruin. Like any person, that would scare the ever loving crap out of her. To make matters worse, she was holding a gun, so if she put two and two together, I can only imagine that that would be utterly devastating.

Yes, that would be very shocking for most people. But when we saw Euphemia in a vaguely similar situation in "Island of the Gods" she did not seem extremely excited or sacred. And what excitement and fear she felt could be explained by the fact that Zero was pointing a gun at her!

And in "Black Knight" Euphie was held hostage for hours and then had a rather calm conversation with her brother's killer in a room full of dead bodies, which indicates that dead bodies don't scare her much.

My post number 130 says that episode 23 had to be written to show that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay. it seems to me that one of the reasons why "Black Knight" and "Island of the Gods" were written the way they were was to show that Euphemia's normal self would not get excited when talking to Lelouch right before he shot her, and thus that she had broken free of the control of her geass command at that moment.

Why do you think that there were bodies of dead Japanese lying around in sight of Euphemia when she was facing Lelouch/Zero? The massacre started at the stadium and radiated outwards from the stadium. That means that as the massacre went on Japanese groups and individuals got farther and farther apart from each other as they ran away from the pursuing Britannians and the groups of Britannians got farther and farther way from each other. So it is quite possible that Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed in a place where the ground was not covered with dead bodies.

We did see a group of fleeing Japanese, and then the scene cut to a shot of Euphemia's nightmare shooting a cannon at some off screen target, then it was bumped by Kallen and eventually destroyed by Zero. We don't know how far away Euphemia's targets were and we don't know if she hit those targets, so we don't know if that left dead bodies in front of her or how distant they were and thus how visible they were.

And what is this about wounded Japanese begging for mercy? I didn't hear those sounds when Euphemia was talking to Lelouch. If Euphie heard wounded Japanese people screaming for mercy in Japanese (which would be strong clue that they were Japanese and thus targets if she was still controlled by the geass) wouldn't that be a strong distraction to her as she talked to Lelouch? Wouldn't she be looking around to see where those voices were coming from, hoping to kill them if controlled by the geass or help them if not controlled by the geass, instead of watching Lelouch for the whole time?

If some of those wounded Japanese people were close in front of her Euphie would have tried to shoot them if she was still controlled by the geass. Maybe they were behind Euphie. If so, Lelouch deliberately condemned them to death when he walked past Euphie and made her turn around. But since she didn't shoot, either there were no wounded Japanese begging for mercy behind her or she was free from the compulsion to kill.

If Euphie, and thus Lelouch ,could hear wounded Japanese screaming for mercy clearly because they were close, wouldn't the fact that Euphie didn't go looking for those Japanese or show any interest in looking around to locate them prove that she was no longer controlled by the geass? Not trying to kill your targets when you are surrounded by piles of bodies, some still alive and proving it by begging for mercy, seems to prove that you have no more compulsion to kill them. And thus wouldn't the fact that Lelouch shot her anyway prove that he was totally ruthless and no longer worth the interest of his fans?

But if Euphemia was still under the control of the geass and thus remembered everything she would know that either 1) her nightmare was destroyed by unknown people and two nightmares belonging to the Black Knights, protectors of her Japanese victims, were towering over her, or 2) Her nightmare had been destroyed by a Black Knight nightmare, and two nightmares belonging to the Black Knights, protectors of her Japanese victims, were towering over her. If Euphie was still under the control of the geass command and knew how she got where she was, she would have either freaked out or else done something to find out Lelouch/Zero's intentions and react accordingly.



That doesn't make sense, at least not in the case that she broke the Geass.

It seems that you are splitting hairs. She either completely defeated and escaped the control of the Geass (and therefore broke it) or she did not. There is no in between in this matter. You seem to be saying is that she defeated the Geass, but did not completely escape its control. She defeated the Geass enough to forget about the massacre she JUST caused but not enough to snap her into reality to where she would most likely break down at the site of all the carnage; remaining calm after a mind-shattering experience like that would be impossible for someone like Euphemia.

When it came to that army analogy, you have to clarify by what you mean by "90% defeated". If an army has lost 90% of its men, then yeah, they are pretty much defeated (note: "pretty much"). However, if the purpose of the battle or war is to completely eliminate the enemy (which is usually the case), then defeating only 90% of them is not going to cut it. Its especially a problem when, not only was the army NOT defeated in the first place, but they came back! And at a time when you are weak.:closedeye

Euphemia achieving defeat of 90% of the Geass (again, your speculation, not mine) means absolutely nothing so long as only COMPLETELY defeating (meaning 100%) means that one broke it and escaped its control. We saw what only 90% defeat of the Geass got for Euphemia. IT CAME BACK!!



The point I have been making is that red eyes mean that the Geass is still there, whether its completely in control, partially in control, or if the person is resisting. So as long as the Geass is STILL THERE (and the command is active), it has not been broken and the person will have red eyes. Euphemia having red eyes means that she didn't break the Geass, no matter how much of it that she "defeated".



Well, not only was Sherlock Holmes brought back in "The Empty House" due to fan pressure but how he survived that fall was explained in the same book. Holmes never died.

However, Euphemia is dead. Quite dead. We saw her get shot. He saw all that blood she lost. We saw her die. We saw her grave. Heck, Britannia took credit for her death by saying that they were the ones that killed her. So she is dead and there is no way work around that one.

Now, is there a chance that she might come back in an alternate Code Geass manga? Yes. In fact, it has already happened, which is what I have been saying this whole time.:banghead:

I don't think that you really mean to claim that 100 percent annihilation of the enemy army is the usual goal in battle, even for the all victorious US army. Isn't Cannae known as the classic victory of annihilation, the one which countless tens and hundreds of generals have wasted their armies in futile attempts to emulate? Polybius gives the Roman army about a 96 percent casualty rate at Cannae, while Livy gives about 57.5 percent casualties. So my rough guess that Euphemia inflicted about 90 percent "casualties" on the geass "army" when she defeated it is equivalent to suggesting that it suffered a Cannae at her hands.

Yes I claimed that Euphemia defeated her geass in a victory as as great as Cannae, somwtimes called the greatest military victory ever, though admittedly not a one hundred percent total victory such as you seem to think is possible to achieve.

I don't think you meant to claim that Cannae, often considered the greatest military victory ever, was not a good enough victory. I think it would sound a little odd to claim that Cannae was a defeat for Hannibal because it was such an imperfect victory for him and the Romans fought on for almost two decades and eventually won!

You say that the geass command came back and attacked Euphie when she was weak. Yes, Euphie was weak in the sickbay when the geass command attacked. Before her geass sensing abilities alerted her to the attempt to control her many seconds before the geass command had enough strength to put the red circles in her eyes.

This time Euphemia was unaware of the attempt to control her for many seconds after it began, even after the geass command was strong enough to put the red circles in her eyes. It seemed like the geass command was certain to take her over without any resistance. Then Euphie became aware of the geass command, resisted it, and defeated it again within seconds.

Euphie was very, very, weak. So weak she couldn't even detect the attempt to take control of her until it was almost totally accomplished. But when she did detect and resist the attempt to control her she defeated it easily. The only possible explanation for her instant defeat of the geass command the second time is that her subconscious mind continued to resist the gesas command after it took her over the first time, and eventually found a way to defeat the geass command, and defeated it while she was taking to Lelouch. Thus Euphie could simply remember how she defeated the geass command previously and use that method instantly when she became aware of the second attempt to control her.

And it is no good claiming that Euphemia was took weak to kill and that the geass command gave up trying to control her because she was too weak to kill. The geass command knew that Euphie was strong enough to talk. It knew that she was strong enough to give orders. It knew that she was strong enough to kill. Therefore it would never have given up trying to control her and had to have been defeated by her.

Your statement that Sherlock Holmes never died is true only in fictional universes which include all the Sherlock Holmes stories including "the Empty House". It was not true in any fictional universes which include only all the Sherlock Holmes stories published before "The Empty House". For almost a decade Sherlock Holmes was dead as a doorknob in the eyes of his sorrowful fans and his creator. It is my desire that as far as Euphemia is concerned Code Geass is in the period between "The Final Solution" and "The Empty House".

I point out that we saw CC killed at least once, and supposedly she has been killed many times, including by beheading and burning at the stake. And no doubt she was buried after some of her deaths. If a mere human who has become a geass-giver can come back to life time after time, the gods should be able to come back to life time after time. If the gods can come back to life time after time, then Euphemia and Nunnally, who resisted geass commands and defeated geasses, which the gods could not, should be able to come back to life time after time.

proEuphie
08-15-2009, 10:51 PM
Once again, you made ONE assumption about me and my opinions and basically ran with it and made a huge post about it without any basis for it. By the way, while I really have no problem with civilians talking about the military, do not assume anything about my opinions based on what knowledge and opinions you may have on the military. I honestly do not care about what opinions you may have on the military (though I can take a really good guess), but don't assume anything about me based on it.:rolleyes:

Do I think that being timid is a negative quality in a person? No and my saying this effectively makes a large part of your post moot (you were better off asking me for clarification on the matter rather than making an incorrect assumption based on nothing). I do not think that being timid is a bad thing. HOWEVER, a person can't be timid and be a leader, soldier, police officer or a firefighter. These people can't be hesitant, fearful and lacking in self-confidence, especially when 2 seconds can mean the difference between life and death, and not just for another person but their OWN LIVES!! A person can be timid all they want and I wouldn't care but being timid is not a very good quality to have on the battlefield.

I do think that a person could be fearless while protecting people, but be timid during some sort of military conflict, however, that does not mean that the person is, overall, a timid person.

Because of this, despite what you say about the word "timid", I wouldn't call Euphemia an overall timid person. She has done quite a number of things that have proved that she is not timid. She is naive and quite politically and militarily challenged, but not timid. Although, even after you called her timid, and deemed it a compliment, you go on to mention the many things that Euphemia has done and even called her (and/or her actions) "brave", which is the very OPPOSITE definition of "timid".:rolleyes:



That would require acknowledging the fact that Euphemia defeated the Geass, which, as you can tell by this ENTIRE thread, I don't believe that she did. EVER. And once AGAIN, IF Euphemia defeated the Geass in the sickbay, that means she ONLY escaped its control while in the sickbay, NOT before she got shot, which is THE QUESTION that YOU are asking.:banghead:

I am working with evidence that has been given to us thus far about the characters, the Geass and how it works. Since you haven't seen more than HALF of the series, your knowledge of the characters and the Geass is not very strong, hence the reason why most of things that you have said so far could not only be refuted but was also common knowledge for people who have seen the entire series. Its kinda hard to argue about a series when you have seen less than half of it.;)

Also, most of things you have presented are pure speculation: Why didn't Euphemia do this? Why didn't she do that? If the Geass worked, why didn't she kill Suzaku? Why didn't Lelouch save her? Why did Euphemia stop shooting while she was still controlled by the Geass? Why did she say what she said? And you pretty much always say, "I guess...", "I guess..." "I guess...."

Those questions are not "evidence" of anything. Some of them have answers, others do not, but that does not mean that the questions that we can't answer are evidence to your point. Code Geass is a cartoon. There are only so many things that can be presented and only so many things that can be explained. Any evidence that you bring forward has to come from the series (and be easily proven) in order to prove your point and can not be speculation.

Why did Euphemia stop shooting when Lelouch was talking to her? Because it was in the script; the writers MADE it that way. Why didn't she kill Suzaku in the sickbay? Because the WRITERS made it that way. Why do ANY of the characters do ANYTHING? Because the writers made it that way. There is only so much that you can assume and speculate before the questions stop becoming evidence and end up being the proof of absolutely nothing. A cartoon has limits to its "reality" and not every single thing is going to operate like YOU expect it to (ie Euphemia killing Suzaku in the sickbay because the Geass "would" have made her) but will operate EXACTLY the way that the WRITERS expect it to (ie Euphemia NOT killing Suzaku in the sickbay).

You asked a question and we are giving solid and proven evidence (from the series) in order to answer your question. If your opinion about Euphemia is the ONLY basis for your some of your answers and the only one that ultimately matters, then you are better off putting this in your blog, not making a thread about it, since this is effectively going nowhere.:closedeye

Either you concide your point, since virtually everything that you have brought up, I (and everybody else) have refuted (and usually more than once) and still can until we reach the post limit or you can just say "Well, I like Euphemia, she is the best character ever, so I really do not care what you have to say about her" and end the thread right here.:rolleyes:


1) So you have responded to my humorous comments about how you might react to a hypothetical ability to use fear gas on the whole world.

More seriously, you say that being timid may make a political or military leader hesitate for a split second on the battlefield and get himself and/or others killed.

Think about Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt, Lincoln, Emperor Ferdinand II, King Phillip II of Spain, Justinian, Chin Shih Huang Ti, etc. etc. Each of them may have been recorded as acting brave and/or timid or even cowardly at some periods of their lives. But at their periods of greatest political and military importance they sent out armies but were not personally present on the battlefield. Thus a second's hesitation due to timidity or a moment of foolish action due to rashness would not have been fatal to them and/or others because they were not present at the battlefields. Thus being incredibly cowardly or reckless would not have made any difference to their performance as military leaders when they were at the height of their powers and historical importance.

And being timid can be a very good quality to have on the battlefield if it leads to surrendering or running away sooner instead of fighting on to the death against hopeless odds like so many anime characters do. And it is a very good guality for the opposing army to have if you want victory for yur army.

Saying that Euphemia is politically and militarily challenged is kind of strange. How many famous leaders can you think of who were as politically and militarily successful as Euphemia was at the age of sixteen? Tens or hundreds out of tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, or millions of important political and military leaders in history.

You probably don't think that Lelouch was politically or militarily challenged, but when he was Euphemia's age, ten months before the first season, he did not have any political or military achievements on his record.

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2) How can you possibly claim that you have proven that Euphemia did not defeat her geass command from the evidence given in the series?

I point out that:

1) she was not doing anything to obey the geass when Lelouch shot her despite your claim that she could hear living Japanese people screaming for mercy and thus asking to be killed if she was still controlled by the geass,

2) She didn't react to the knowledge that the Black Knights had just attacked her which she would have known if she remembered everything due to still being controlled by the geass,

3) In the sickbay she was still strong enough to kill and thus she must have defeated the geass command.

And you just say that she could not possibly defeat her geass command based on what is known about geass from the first and second seasons.

I say that Euphemia defeating her geass command is an important part of the total evidence about how geass works, and may have been written into the series with that intention. You may say that other evidence proves that Humans can not defeat geass commands and that even the gods can not resist geass commands. But that merely proves that Euphemia and Nunnally, who resisted and defeated geass, are in that respect higher than humans and the gods.

My post # 130 claims that episode 23 was written to show that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay and had to be written that way.

+Namiko+
08-17-2009, 06:25 PM
*sigh* dont know why im getting in to this -_-

The answer is simple.

NO: she didn't break the geass.

She HAD to be killed otherwise she would have kept on killing.

She's a FICTIONAL character.

You are posting uncontrollably its a wonder you haven't been banned.

Let it go, its bad for your health.

proEuphie
08-17-2009, 11:09 PM
*sigh* dont know why im getting in to this -_-

The answer is simple.

NO: she didn't break the geass.

She HAD to be killed otherwise she would have kept on killing.

She's a FICTIONAL character.

You are posting uncontrollably its a wonder you haven't been banned.

Let it go, its bad for your health.

You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry.

Euphemia did not "have to be killed because she would have kept on killing".

I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..

Wolfgirl90 kept insisting, as you just did, that Euphemia had to be killed because she might escape and kill someone. Anybody in the whole world might someday kill someone. Do you or I have a written guarantee from God almighty saying that we will never kill anybody? No.

Any one of your enemies who is already fighting you might kill some of your people and comrades sometime in the future. The only way to certainly prevent that would be to kill all your enemies, slaughter them ruthlessly, show no mercy, exterminate them without pity, and commit all kinds of war crimes that will make you one of the most evil people in history.

But someone who is now neutral or even on your side might join the enemy side in the future and kill some of your comrades. If you are a warrior, even you might change sides in the future and kill some of the people you now fight to protect. There will always be at least a slight chance that you will someday kill someone that you now love.

During the French and Indian War George Washington was a loyal British subject who fought alongside the king's soldiers and never dreamed that he and they would ever become enemies. A dozen years after the end of the war Washington found himself the commander of the rebel army seeking to defeat and kill some of his former comrades that he would have given his life for fifteen or twenty years earlier.

Robert E. Lee and hundreds of officers from the South were loyal to the United States and fought alongside officers from the North in the Mexican War and on the frontier. They never believed that they would ever fight against the United States or their fellow officers. But eventually Robert E Lee and hundreds of other Southern officers did join the Confedracy and fight against their old country.

You can not totally trust anyone to always be loyal to the people and causes that you are loyal to now, not even you yourself. So the only way to prevent anyone from ever killing anyone you now wish to protect is to kill everyone in the world, including those you wish to protect and you yourself, in order to be absolutely certain that nobody will kill them in the future!

That does not make sense. And it does not make sense to kill everyone who might possibly kill someone in the future. If an enemy can be captured safely and confined with a reasonable expectation they will never escape to kill some of your people, you have to take them prisoner instead of killing them. You can't worry that they might escape and kill somebody on your side and use that as an excuse to kill them instead of capturing them.

Throughout history, countless men and and women and children have been killed by evil people who used the slight possibillity that they might be dangerous to people on their side as an excuse to kill them. It is a crime to worry so much about someone's potential danger that you kill them when you can capture them alive with ease.

If Euphemia was locked up with reasonable security she would be less dangerous than any of countless thousands and millions of rebels and soldiers in the world who were free and armed and might be given and obey orders to massacre.

Take any person who is free. such as myself, proEephie, or Wolfgirl90, or xRiikox, or Alkazor, or anyone who is free. Anyone who is free can acquire a weapon, such as a gun, a knife, a club, etc., and kill someone if he or she decides to Or they could kill some one without a weapon, by pushing them off a balcony, or something. If a particular society has a murder rate of one per ten thousand per year, or one per one hundred thousand per year, or one per a million per year, then a native of that society would have a good chance of being murdered if he lived to be ten thousand, or a hundred thousand, or a million.

But there must be a murderer for every victim, although not an exact equal number of murderers and victims. So if you lived for ten thousand years, or one hundred thousand years, or a million years, depending on the crime rate in the (mostly far future) society you would live in, you will have a good chance of becoming a murderer at least once. Of course the more evil someone is the more likely he will be to commit murder, so we would all like to believe that we are among the more innocent group and thus less likely to commit murder. But most (though not all) murderers also like to think that they are in the more innocent group and less likely to commit murder, at some points in their lives before they actually do kill.

A lot of murderers are the kind of person that everyone who knew them expected to kill someone someday. But a lot of murderers do not seem very scary until they are accused. It is a cliche for the neighbors of a killer to say that he was such a nice quiet man who never gave any trouble. And many of them may have fooled themselves into believing they were good and innocent almost as long as they fooled the neighbors.

A stranger might calculate that any one of us might have a one in a million to one in thousand chance of ever becoming a murderer, despite our beliefs that we are especially innocent.

If it is right to kill Euphemia because of the threat she would pose even in confinement it is even more right to kill any free person such as proEuphie, or +Namiko+ or wolfgirl90 because of the even bigger threat that any free person poses. If it is wrong to kill Blackrosetwilight or Akazor or wolfgirl90 or xRiikox or any other random free person because of the tiny, insignificant, threat he poses it is even more wrong to kill Euphemia because of the even smaller threat she would pose if captured and confined.

Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.

But it is wrong to kill someone because you think that they will suffer if left alive. If they do suffer, suicide or death from old age will put an end to their suffering soon enough. Lelouch did not have the right to even think about how much Euphemia might possibly suffer if he did the right thing and took her prisoner, let alone decide that her hypothetical suffering would be worse than death.

So I started this thread to discuss the possiibility that Euphemia defeated her geass before Lelouch shot her hoping to show that she would not have been controlled by the geass forever. It would not have been right to kill her even if she was certain to be controlled by the geass forever. So by proving that she would not have been controlled by the geass forever I would doubly disprove the idea that it would have been right to kill Euphemia because she would have been controlled by the geass forever.

And after all the arguments pro and con I am more convinced than ever that Euphemia defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch and again in the sickbay. And thus she would not have been dangerous and would not have suffered.

But even if my opponents are right that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass, her behavior during the periods when I think she was free from the geass control has to be explained. If the geass did control her, how is that consistent with the idea of her being constantly dangerous while controlled by the geass, or suffering if she couldn't find any Japanese people to kill?

If Euphemia was still controlled by the geass while talking to Lelouch, and in the sickbay, then the geass was not a slave driver but an easygoing master that did not demand excessive effort from those it controlled.

So Euphemia would not have been very dangerous in confinement, and she would not have suffered much from her failure to find victims.

Wolfgirl90 believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia for evil motives but her death was a good thing because of the danger she might possisbly kill someone and because she might suffer from captivity and the stress of not being able to satisfy the geass command. I think that the discussions of Euphemia's behavior during the periods that I think she was free from the geass shows that she would not have been very dangerous in confinement and that she would not have suffered very much, whether she escaped from the geass or not.

Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.

Rei
08-18-2009, 02:46 AM
You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry.

Euphemia did not "have to be killed because she would have kept on killing".

I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..

Wolfgirl90 kept insisting, as you just did, that Euphemia had to be killed because she might escape and kill someone. Anybody in the whole world might someday kill someone. Do you or I have a written guarantee from God almighty saying that we will never kill anybody? No.

Any one of your enemies who is already fighting you might kill some of your people and comrades sometime in the future. The only way to certainly prevent that would be to kill all your enemies, slaughter them ruthlessly, show no mercy, exterminate them without pity, and commit all kinds of war crimes that will make you one of the most evil people in history.

But someone who is now neutral or even on your side might join the enemy side in the future and kill some of your comrades. If you are a warrior, even you might change sides in the future and kill some of the people you now fight to protect. There will always be at least a slight chance that you will someday kill someone that you now love.

During the French and Indian War George Washington was a loyal British subject who fought alongside the king's soldiers and never dreamed that he and they would ever become enemies. A dozen years after the end of the war Washington found himself the commander of the rebel army seeking to defeat and kill some of his former comrades that he would have given his life for fifteen or twenty years earlier.

Robert E. Lee and hundreds of officers from the South were loyal to the United States and fought alongside officers from the North in the Mexican War and on the frontier. They never believed that they would ever fight against the United States or their fellow officers. But eventually Robert E Lee and hundreds of other Southern officers did join the Confedracy and fight against their old country.

You can not totally trust anyone to always be loyal to the people and causes that you are loyal to now, not even you yourself. So the only way to prevent anyone from ever killing anyone you now wish to protect is to kill everyone in the world, including those you wish to protect and you yourself, in order to be absolutely certain that nobody will kill them in the future!

That does not make sense. And it does not make sense to kill everyone who might possibly kill someone in the future. If an enemy can be captured safely and confined with a reasonable expectation they will never escape to kill some of your people, you have to take them prisoner instead of killing them. You can't worry that they might escape and kill somebody on your side and use that as an excuse to kill them instead of capturing them.

Throughout history, countless men and and women and children have been killed by evil people who used the slight possibillity that they might be dangerous to people on their side as an excuse to kill them. It is a crime to worry so much about someone's potential danger that you kill them when you can capture them alive with ease.

If Euphemia was locked up with reasonable security she would be less dangerous than any of countless thousands and millions of rebels and soldiers in the world who were free and armed and might be given and obey orders to massacre.

Wolfgirl90 once wrote that she is in the military. If so, the slight but real potential danger that she might be ordered to take part in a terrible massacre and obey those orders is greater than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia. If Euphemia should be killed instead of captured because of her potential danger to others, wolfgirl90 should be killed to end the danger she represents, which is very small but much larger than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia..

But Wolfgirl90 does not believe that she is so dangerous that she should be killed to end that danger, even though she is obviously more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined.

And don't make a big fuss about this wolfgirl90. I didn't say that you were a dangerous homicidal killer who had to be killed to end the danger you represent. I don't think that you are any more dangerous than tens and hundreds of millions of other people. Maybe you are among the fifty percent or ten percent most dangerous of the over six billion people on the planet.

And I think that the probability that you will ever commit an unjustified homicide is very, very, slight, wolfgirl90. I just pointed out the obvious fact that since you are human and free and have access to weapons and are trained to use them the probability that you will commit an unjustified homicide is much greater than that of Euphemia if she was confined in reasonable security.

If it is right to kill Euphemia because of the threat she poses it is even more right to kill wolfgirl90 because of the even bigger threat she poses. If it is wrong to kill wolfgirl90 because of the tiny, insignificant, threat she poses it is even more wrong to kill Euphemia because of the even smaller threat she poses.

Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.

But it is wrong to kill someone because you think that they will suffer if left alive. If they do suffer, suicide or death from old age will put an end to their suffering soon enough. Lelouch did not have the right to even think about how much Euphemia might possibly suffer if he did the right thing and took her prisoner, let alone decide that her hypothetical suffering would be worse than death.

So I started this thread to discuss the possiibility that Euphemia defeated her geass before Lelouch shot her hoping to show that she would not have been controlled by the geass forever. It would not have been right to kill her even if she was certain to be controlled by the geass forever. So by proving that she would not have been controlled by the geass forever I would doubly disprove the idea that it would have been right to kill Euphemia because she would have been controlled by the geass forever.

And after all the arguments pro and con I am more convinced than ever that Euphemia defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch and again in the sickbay. And thus she would not have been dangerous and would not have suffered.

But even if my opponents are right that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass, her behavior during the periods when I think she was free from the geass control has to be explained. If the geass did control her, how is that consistent with the idea of her being constantly dangerous while controlled by the geass, or suffering if she couldn't find any Japanese people to kill?

If Euphemia was still controlled by the geass while talking to Lelouch, and in the sickbay, then the geass was not a slave driver but an easygoing master that did not demand excessive effort from those it controlled.

So Euphemia would not have been very dangerous in confinement, and she would not have suffered much from her failure to find victims.

Wolfgirl90 believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia for evil motives but her death was a good thing because of the danger she might possisbly kill someone and because she might suffer from captivity and the stress of not being able to satisfy the geass command. I think that the discussions of Euphemia's behavior during the periods that I think she was free from the geass shows that she would not have been very dangerous in confinement and that she would not have suffered very much, whether she escaped from the geass or not.

Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.

...Look, you are literally making assumptions here. Fantasizing, too. Er...it IS a fact that Euphemia was an object of lesbian affection, if you do want to go on. No, in fact stop going on and on; save all Code Geass fans here the trouble.
Here are my points (you can choose to agree or disagree, I'm sure you'll choose the latter; I simply cannot be bothered about you anymore.):
Let me put your pompous speech to an end. If not, I shall endeavour to have you banned, as many others have.
Quote: [You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry.]
I'm sorry, dear, but this ain't your thread and we're not inclined to listen to you. And anyone could tell that you're not sorry at all.

Quote: I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..
Take your annoyance somewhere else, you annoy us the most. Like most of us have tried to tell you; you know by now that it isn't appreciated here, nor is it going to be in the near future. Sense here: Why would Lelouch allow himself to be captured? He still has a lot of plans to carry out. Yes, it was a murder. Yes, he has murdered lots of people in cold blood. And yes, the producers planned it that way.

Quote: Wolfgirl90 kept insisting, as you just did, that Euphemia had to be killed because she might escape and kill someone. Anybody in the whole world might someday kill someone. Do you or I have a written guarantee from God almighty saying that we will never kill anybody? No.

Any one of your enemies who is already fighting you might kill some of your people and comrades sometime in the future. The only way to certainly prevent that would be to kill all your enemies, slaughter them ruthlessly, show no mercy, exterminate them without pity, and commit all kinds of war crimes that will make you one of the most evil people in history.

But someone who is now neutral or even on your side might join the enemy side in the future and kill some of your comrades. If you are a warrior, even you might change sides in the future and kill some of the people you now fight to protect. There will always be at least a slight chance that you will someday kill someone that you now love.

Yes, and that is why Euphemia had to be killed. I hope you understand it now, 'cause you sure ain't getting the point like the rest of us do, that she literally turned evil (went over to the enemy side, in a way. How she do contradict herself under control of the Geass). Are you (a) so obsessed or (b) so dense that you cannot see this point? Well, which one is it?

Quote: During the French and Indian War George Washington was a loyal British subject who fought alongside the king's soldiers and never dreamed that he and they would ever become enemies. A dozen years after the end of the war Washington found himself the commander of the rebel army seeking to defeat and kill some of his former comrades that he would have given his life for fifteen or twenty years earlier.

Robert E. Lee and hundreds of officers from the South were loyal to the United States and fought alongside officers from the North in the Mexican War and on the frontier. They never believed that they would ever fight against the United States or their fellow officers. But eventually Robert E Lee and hundreds of other Southern officers did join the Confedracy and fight against their old country.

You can not totally trust anyone to always be loyal to the people and causes that you are loyal to now, not even you yourself. So the only way to prevent anyone from ever killing anyone you now wish to protect is to kill everyone in the world, including those you wish to protect and you yourself, in order to be absolutely certain that nobody will kill them in the future!

That does not make sense. And it does not make sense to kill everyone who might possibly kill someone in the future. If an enemy can be captured safely and confined with a reasonable expectation they will never escape to kill some of your people, you have to take them prisoner instead of killing them. You can't worry that they might escape and kill somebody on your side and use that as an excuse to kill them instead of capturing them.

Throughout history, countless men and and women and children have been killed by evil people who used the slight possibillity that they might be dangerous to people on their side as an excuse to kill them. It is a crime to worry so much about someone's potential danger that you kill them when you can capture them alive with ease.

If Euphemia was locked up with reasonable security she would be less dangerous than any of countless thousands and millions of rebels and soldiers in the world who were free and armed and might be given and obey orders to massacre.

I shall excuse your blatant misuse of History. By the way, in case you really, really haven't got it into your thick head, was killed AFTER she ordered the massacre. It wasn't because of the possibility of it happening, the possibility that she would kill someone, but because of the fact that she had already slaughtered thousands of elevens.
And please make sense. No-one would have been able to restrain her, anyway, because of the royal guard. Do you think that they would have allowed that to happen? Besides, she already gave them orders to kill the Elevens.

Quote: Wolfgirl90 once wrote that she is in the military. If so, the slight but real potential danger that she might be ordered to take part in a terrible massacre and obey those orders is greater than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia. If Euphemia should be killed instead of captured because of her potential danger to others, wolfgirl90 should be killed to end the danger she represents, which is very small but much larger than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia..

But Wolfgirl90 does not believe that she is so dangerous that she should be killed to end that danger, even though she is obviously more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined.

And don't make a big fuss about this wolfgirl90. I didn't say that you were a dangerous homicidal killer who had to be killed to end the danger you represent. I don't think that you are any more dangerous than tens and hundreds of millions of other people. Maybe you are among the fifty percent or ten percent most dangerous of the over six billion people on the planet.

And I think that the probability that you will ever commit an unjustified homicide is very, very, slight, wolfgirl90. I just pointed out the obvious fact that since you are human and free and have access to weapons and are trained to use them the probability that you will commit an unjustified homicide is much greater than that of Euphemia if she was confined in reasonable security.

If it is right to kill Euphemia because of the threat she poses it is even more right to kill wolfgirl90 because of the even bigger threat she poses. If it is wrong to kill wolfgirl90 because of the tiny, insignificant, threat she poses it is even more wrong to kill Euphemia because of the even smaller threat she poses.

Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.

Ahhh. Simply Amazing. You are the first person I have met (albeit online) who would so literally drag an anime into real life, and aim it at real-life people. Unfortunately, I do not think the anime world of Code Geass should be abused this way by you. What has happened has happened, I give you sound advice: get over it. I suppose you would verily bleed your heart out, or die, if Euphemia was killed. Oh, but brilliant, she has been, and you're still alive, aren't you? Don't give me some crap about how your poor heart bleeds for her or how you sobbed your pitiful eyes out at her funeral. Euphemia is a nice character, don't make me hate her. Your delusion has nothing to do with Wolfgirl, because she is not like you are, she is a nice and normal person, not like you.

Quote: And after all the arguments pros and cons I am more convinced than ever that Euphemia defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch and again in the sickbay. And thus she would not have been dangerous and would not have suffered.

But even if my opponents are right that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass, her behavior during the periods when I think she was free from the geass control has to be explained. If the geass did control her, how is that consistent with the idea of her being constantly dangerous while controlled by the geass, or suffering if she couldn't find any Japanese people to kill?

If Euphemia was still controlled by the geass while talking to Lelouch, and in the sickbay, then the geass was not a slave driver but an easygoing master that did not demand excessive effort from those it controlled.

So Euphemia would not have been very dangerous in confinement, and she would not have suffered much from her failure to find victims.

Wolfgirl90 believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia for evil motives but her death was a good thing because of the danger she might possisbly kill someone and because she might suffer from captivity and the stress of not being able to satisfy the geass command. I think that the discussions of Euphemia's behavior during the periods that I think she was free from the geass shows that she would not have been very dangerous in confinement and that she would not have suffered very much, whether she escaped from the geass or not.

Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.

I think you have got it wrong. We are NOT discussing if killing Euphemia was a good thing or not. We are discussing if Euphemia escaped from the control of the Geass she was under before she died; read the thread title, please. We were not your 'opponents', as you so pleasantly state. In the first place, we did not want a debate. You started one. By the abuse you always recieve, shouldn't you get the point into your THICK HEAD already that no-one wants you in the Code Geass forum (or any other forum, actually) unless you change? But I think that's pretty much a lost cause now.

It's okay if you want everyone to hate you, but [I]do stop spamming. Many people have probably told you this, right? Thus your rapidly declining reputation that cannot be reduced any more than it is. I wonder what people think of you in real life; do they cover their ears when you come near? Ah well, I rest my case. It is absolutely typical of you to drag your conflict from another of your threads into this one, and then critisize anyone who has a different opinion. Arigatou gozaimashita.

Alkazor
08-18-2009, 03:21 PM
I wonder if Nina reacted this way when Euphie was killed...Personally I laughed my *** off at how well things had gone.

Anyway, I think the better question here is how anybody else here escaped my Geass. I thought it worked over computers...

blackrosetwilight
08-18-2009, 03:32 PM
I wonder if Nina reacted this way when Euphie was killed...Personally I laughed my *** off at how well things had gone.

Anyway, I think the better question here is how anybody else here escaped my Geass. I thought it worked over computers...
Nah I think should took it better. She did get over euphy's death when lelouch became emporer, she just didnt get over the fact that it was Lelouch who did her in. In fact you should already know she even joins him.

+Namiko+
08-18-2009, 09:31 PM
"You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry."

Yyyyyah. Thats why. i rlllllllllly think you need to STOP. you are LOOSING irrtiating COUNTLESS people. You need to kindly GET OVER IT.
You are making a mockery of people in real life.

You remind me of Nina. Geeze. This isnt heathly for you. get over it plz.

And forgive me but did you not START this whole thread going after wolfgirl90?
was that not part of, even though not the whole, what you put in your original post? That was rude and obnoxious of you. You seem to have wrapped youself somuch in the life of a mary sue fictional character that you seem to have forgotten common courtesy to REAL PEOPLE.


It seems to me that you cant accept the fact that someone dissagrees with you. Guess what. Euphie was a minor character, destined to die from the start. She did not die because lelouch was evil. She did not die because she might have killed more people. she died because

IT
MADE
GOOD
TV!!!


Drama drama drama. Code Geass was a DRAMA. I dont know how old you are but you OBVIOUSLY werent mature enough to handle it. You give a bad name to anime fans everywhere with your obsession. So GROW UP and GET OVER IT.

She's

NOT REAL

She's

D E A D

Have a nice day, k?:)

Rei
08-19-2009, 12:50 AM
"You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry."

Yyyyyah. Thats why. i rlllllllllly think you need to STOP. you are LOOSING irrtiating COUNTLESS people. You need to kindly GET OVER IT.
You are making a mockery of people in real life.

You remind me of Nina. Geeze. This isnt heathly for you. get over it plz.

And forgive me but did you not START this whole thread going after wolfgirl90?
was that not part of, even though not the whole, what you put in your original post? That was rude and obnoxious of you. You seem to have wrapped youself so much in the life of a mary sue fictional character that you seem to have forgotten common courtesy to REAL PEOPLE.


It seems to me that you cant accept the fact that someone dissagrees with you. Guess what. Euphie was a minor character, destined to die from the start. She did not die because lelouch was evil. She did not die because she might have killed more people. she died because

IT
MADE
GOOD
TV!!!


Drama drama drama. Code Geass was a DRAMA. I dont know how old you are but you OBVIOUSLY werent mature enough to handle it. You give a bad name to anime fans everywhere with your obsession. So GROW UP and GET OVER IT.

She's

NOT REAL

She's

D E A D

Have a nice day, k?:)


I like this. ^^
High five, kudos to you.;)

+Namiko+
08-19-2009, 10:53 AM
I like this. ^^
High five, kudos to you.;)


*highfive* :3 :laugh:
yay n_n i feel special!

proEuphie
08-22-2009, 10:22 PM
...Look, you are literally making assumptions here. Fantasizing, too. Er...it IS a fact that Euphemia was an object of lesbian affection, if you do want to go on. No, in fact stop going on and on; save all Code Geass fans here the trouble.
Here are my points (you can choose to agree or disagree, I'm sure you'll choose the latter; I simply cannot be bothered about you anymore.):
Let me put your pompous speech to an end. If not, I shall endeavour to have you banned, as many others have.
Quote: [You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry.]
I'm sorry, dear, but this ain't your thread and we're not inclined to listen to you. And anyone could tell that you're not sorry at all.

Quote: I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..
Take your annoyance somewhere else, you annoy us the most. Like most of us have tried to tell you; you know by now that it isn't appreciated here, nor is it going to be in the near future. Sense here: Why would Lelouch allow himself to be captured? He still has a lot of plans to carry out. Yes, it was a murder. Yes, he has murdered lots of people in cold blood. And yes, the producers planned it that way.

Quote: Wolfgirl90 kept insisting, as you just did, that Euphemia had to be killed because she might escape and kill someone. Anybody in the whole world might someday kill someone. Do you or I have a written guarantee from God almighty saying that we will never kill anybody? No.

Any one of your enemies who is already fighting you might kill some of your people and comrades sometime in the future. The only way to certainly prevent that would be to kill all your enemies, slaughter them ruthlessly, show no mercy, exterminate them without pity, and commit all kinds of war crimes that will make you one of the most evil people in history.

But someone who is now neutral or even on your side might join the enemy side in the future and kill some of your comrades. If you are a warrior, even you might change sides in the future and kill some of the people you now fight to protect. There will always be at least a slight chance that you will someday kill someone that you now love.

Yes, and that is why Euphemia had to be killed. I hope you understand it now, 'cause you sure ain't getting the point like the rest of us do, that she literally turned evil (went over to the enemy side, in a way. How she do contradict herself under control of the Geass). Are you (a) so obsessed or (b) so dense that you cannot see this point? Well, which one is it?

Quote: During the French and Indian War George Washington was a loyal British subject who fought alongside the king's soldiers and never dreamed that he and they would ever become enemies. A dozen years after the end of the war Washington found himself the commander of the rebel army seeking to defeat and kill some of his former comrades that he would have given his life for fifteen or twenty years earlier.

Robert E. Lee and hundreds of officers from the South were loyal to the United States and fought alongside officers from the North in the Mexican War and on the frontier. They never believed that they would ever fight against the United States or their fellow officers. But eventually Robert E Lee and hundreds of other Southern officers did join the Confedracy and fight against their old country.

You can not totally trust anyone to always be loyal to the people and causes that you are loyal to now, not even you yourself. So the only way to prevent anyone from ever killing anyone you now wish to protect is to kill everyone in the world, including those you wish to protect and you yourself, in order to be absolutely certain that nobody will kill them in the future!

That does not make sense. And it does not make sense to kill everyone who might possibly kill someone in the future. If an enemy can be captured safely and confined with a reasonable expectation they will never escape to kill some of your people, you have to take them prisoner instead of killing them. You can't worry that they might escape and kill somebody on your side and use that as an excuse to kill them instead of capturing them.

Throughout history, countless men and and women and children have been killed by evil people who used the slight possibillity that they might be dangerous to people on their side as an excuse to kill them. It is a crime to worry so much about someone's potential danger that you kill them when you can capture them alive with ease.

If Euphemia was locked up with reasonable security she would be less dangerous than any of countless thousands and millions of rebels and soldiers in the world who were free and armed and might be given and obey orders to massacre.

I shall excuse your blatant misuse of History. By the way, in case you really, really haven't got it into your thick head, was killed AFTER she ordered the massacre. It wasn't because of the possibility of it happening, the possibility that she would kill someone, but because of the fact that she had already slaughtered thousands of elevens.
And please make sense. No-one would have been able to restrain her, anyway, because of the royal guard. Do you think that they would have allowed that to happen? Besides, she already gave them orders to kill the Elevens.

Quote: Wolfgirl90 once wrote that she is in the military. If so, the slight but real potential danger that she might be ordered to take part in a terrible massacre and obey those orders is greater than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia. If Euphemia should be killed instead of captured because of her potential danger to others, wolfgirl90 should be killed to end the danger she represents, which is very small but much larger than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia..

But Wolfgirl90 does not believe that she is so dangerous that she should be killed to end that danger, even though she is obviously more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined.

And don't make a big fuss about this wolfgirl90. I didn't say that you were a dangerous homicidal killer who had to be killed to end the danger you represent. I don't think that you are any more dangerous than tens and hundreds of millions of other people. Maybe you are among the fifty percent or ten percent most dangerous of the over six billion people on the planet.

And I think that the probability that you will ever commit an unjustified homicide is very, very, slight, wolfgirl90. I just pointed out the obvious fact that since you are human and free and have access to weapons and are trained to use them the probability that you will commit an unjustified homicide is much greater than that of Euphemia if she was confined in reasonable security.

If it is right to kill Euphemia because of the threat she poses it is even more right to kill wolfgirl90 because of the even bigger threat she poses. If it is wrong to kill wolfgirl90 because of the tiny, insignificant, threat she poses it is even more wrong to kill Euphemia because of the even smaller threat she poses.

Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.

Ahhh. Simply Amazing. You are the first person I have met (albeit online) who would so literally drag an anime into real life, and aim it at real-life people. Unfortunately, I do not think the anime world of Code Geass should be abused this way by you. What has happened has happened, I give you sound advice: get over it. I suppose you would verily bleed your heart out, or die, if Euphemia was killed. Oh, but brilliant, she has been, and you're still alive, aren't you? Don't give me some crap about how your poor heart bleeds for her or how you sobbed your pitiful eyes out at her funeral. Euphemia is a nice character, don't make me hate her. Your delusion has nothing to do with Wolfgirl, because she is not like you are, she is a nice and normal person, not like you.

Quote: And after all the arguments pros and cons I am more convinced than ever that Euphemia defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch and again in the sickbay. And thus she would not have been dangerous and would not have suffered.

But even if my opponents are right that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass, her behavior during the periods when I think she was free from the geass control has to be explained. If the geass did control her, how is that consistent with the idea of her being constantly dangerous while controlled by the geass, or suffering if she couldn't find any Japanese people to kill?

If Euphemia was still controlled by the geass while talking to Lelouch, and in the sickbay, then the geass was not a slave driver but an easygoing master that did not demand excessive effort from those it controlled.

So Euphemia would not have been very dangerous in confinement, and she would not have suffered much from her failure to find victims.

Wolfgirl90 believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia for evil motives but her death was a good thing because of the danger she might possisbly kill someone and because she might suffer from captivity and the stress of not being able to satisfy the geass command. I think that the discussions of Euphemia's behavior during the periods that I think she was free from the geass shows that she would not have been very dangerous in confinement and that she would not have suffered very much, whether she escaped from the geass or not.

Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.

I think you have got it wrong. We are NOT discussing if killing Euphemia was a good thing or not. We are discussing if Euphemia escaped from the control of the Geass she was under before she died; read the thread title, please. We were not your 'opponents', as you so pleasantly state. In the first place, we did not want a debate. You started one. By the abuse you always recieve, shouldn't you get the point into your THICK HEAD already that no-one wants you in the Code Geass forum (or any other forum, actually) unless you change? But I think that's pretty much a lost cause now.

It's okay if you want everyone to hate you, but [I]do stop spamming. Many people have probably told you this, right? Thus your rapidly declining reputation that cannot be reduced any more than it is. I wonder what people think of you in real life; do they cover their ears when you come near? Ah well, I rest my case. It is absolutely typical of you to drag your conflict from another of your threads into this one, and then critisize anyone who has a different opinion. Arigatou gozaimashita.

You will probably not like this but part of your post is arguing against a misprint in my post. I wrote " once he was captured" when I meant to write "once she was captured".

Quote: I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..
Take your annoyance somewhere else, you annoy us the most. Like most of us have tried to tell you; you know by now that it isn't appreciated here, nor is it going to be in the near future. Sense here: Why would Lelouch allow himself to be captured? He still has a lot of plans to carry out. Yes, it was a murder. Yes, he has murdered lots of people in cold blood. And yes, the producers planned it that way.

So when you wrote "why would Lelouch allow himself to be captured?" You are questioning a misprint which I didn't notice and correct. And you didn't notice that I obviously intended to write "she" instead of "he".

proEuphie
08-22-2009, 10:35 PM
"You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry."

Yyyyyah. Thats why. i rlllllllllly think you need to STOP. you are LOOSING irrtiating COUNTLESS people. You need to kindly GET OVER IT.
You are making a mockery of people in real life.

You remind me of Nina. Geeze. This isnt heathly for you. get over it plz.

And forgive me but did you not START this whole thread going after wolfgirl90?
was that not part of, even though not the whole, what you put in your original post? That was rude and obnoxious of you. You seem to have wrapped youself somuch in the life of a mary sue fictional character that you seem to have forgotten common courtesy to REAL PEOPLE.


It seems to me that you cant accept the fact that someone dissagrees with you. Guess what. Euphie was a minor character, destined to die from the start. She did not die because lelouch was evil. She did not die because she might have killed more people. she died because

IT
MADE
GOOD
TV!!!


Drama drama drama. Code Geass was a DRAMA. I dont know how old you are but you OBVIOUSLY werent mature enough to handle it. You give a bad name to anime fans everywhere with your obsession. So GROW UP and GET OVER IT.

She's

NOT REAL

She's

D E A D

Have a nice day, k?:)


No. It made bad tv.

How can it make good tv to concentrate 90 percent of the goodness of all of the characters in one single character, and kill that character halfway through the show? How can there be suspense when the worst thing which can possibly happen to any or all of the characters has alrady happened, when nothing signifiantly good or bad can happen to the few remaining good cast members that can significantly inceasse or decease the overall evilness of all the events in the series?

And if the producers seriously intended for the audience to have any sympathy for Lelouch after he senselessly killed Euphemia, then episodes 22 and 23 may be amoung the most evil television episodes ever produced.

proEuphie
08-24-2009, 09:43 PM
...Look, you are literally making assumptions here. Fantasizing, too. Er...it IS a fact that Euphemia was an object of lesbian affection, if you do want to go on. No, in fact stop going on and on; save all Code Geass fans here the trouble.
Here are my points (you can choose to agree or disagree, I'm sure you'll choose the latter; I simply cannot be bothered about you anymore.):
Let me put your pompous speech to an end. If not, I shall endeavour to have you banned, as many others have.
Quote: [You're probably getting in to this to try to mess up my thread to get revenge for me messing up your thread. I'm sorry.]
I'm sorry, dear, but this ain't your thread and we're not inclined to listen to you. And anyone could tell that you're not sorry at all.

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Quote: I am basically annoyed at the death of Euphemia because it is so obvious that Lelouch could have captured her alive just as safely and easily as he killed her, and once he was captured she could be confined where she wouldn't be much danger to anyone. Thus she was murdered, and you code geass fans refuse to admit that what you saw was a murder..


Take your annoyance somewhere else, you annoy us the most. Like most of us have tried to tell you; you know by now that it isn't appreciated here, nor is it going to be in the near future. Sense here: Why would Lelouch allow himself to be captured? He still has a lot of plans to carry out. Yes, it was a murder. Yes, he has murdered lots of people in cold blood. And yes, the producers planned it that way.

Here you let a typo mislead you about what I meant. I wrote "once he was captured " when I meant "once she was captured", meaning that Euphemia would not be dangerous once she was captured and confined, And you thought that I was talking about when Lelouch would be captured.

So you admit that Lelouch murdered Euphemia? And that he murdered a lot of other people in cold blood? Then why are you making a fuss about my efforts to persuade you that lelouch murdered Euphemia and a lot of other people? Why don't you simply reply "yes I know that Lelouch murdered a lot of people and and the only reason I forced myself to watch the show until the end was in the hope of seeing him finally get the punishment that he deserves,and I felt let down by the ending in which he sacrificed himself willingly in a noble but futile effort to make up for all the evil that he did."?

Why do you instead act like I am writing blasphemy?

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Quote: Wolfgirl90 kept insisting, as you just did, that Euphemia had to be killed because she might escape and kill someone. Anybody in the whole world might someday kill someone. Do you or I have a written guarantee from God almighty saying that we will never kill anybody? No.

Any one of your enemies who is already fighting you might kill some of your people and comrades sometime in the future. The only way to certainly prevent that would be to kill all your enemies, slaughter them ruthlessly, show no mercy, exterminate them without pity, and commit all kinds of war crimes that will make you one of the most evil people in history.

But someone who is now neutral or even on your side might join the enemy side in the future and kill some of your comrades. If you are a warrior, even you might change sides in the future and kill some of the people you now fight to protect. There will always be at least a slight chance that you will someday kill someone that you now love.


Yes, and that is why Euphemia had to be killed. I hope you understand it now, 'cause you sure ain't getting the point like the rest of us do, that she literally turned evil (went over to the enemy side, in a way. How she do contradict herself under control of the Geass). Are you (a) so obsessed or (b) so dense that you cannot see this point? Well, which one is it?

Euphemia did not turn evil. Her body was taken over by an evil spirit or a hypnotic command or something that forced her to do what it wanted to. She was an innocent bystander. No innocent bystander has to be killed if the killer can be stopped just as soon and safely without killing the innocent bystander. Nobody would insist on killing a killer instead of capturing him alive if capturing him also meant sparing the life of a innocent bystander.

You say Euphemia went over to the enemy and had to be killed. Are you saying that every member of the enemy has to be killed? If so you are wrong. it is never right for a soldier or warrior to kill an enemy soldier, warrior, or leader if it would be just as safe for the people on his side to let that enemy escape or to capture him alive.

Lelouch obviously could have captured Euphemia alive in perfect safety to himself and to all the Japanese, and it would have been just as fast and just as easy as killing her was. Therefore Euphemia did not have to be killed. In fact she had to be not killed. She had to be captured and not killed, since letting her go free would be dangerous to her and to the Japanese people.

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Quote: During the French and Indian War George Washington was a loyal British subject who fought alongside the king's soldiers and never dreamed that he and they would ever become enemies. A dozen years after the end of the war Washington found himself the commander of the rebel army seeking to defeat and kill some of his former comrades that he would have given his life for fifteen or twenty years earlier.

Robert E. Lee and hundreds of officers from the South were loyal to the United States and fought alongside officers from the North in the Mexican War and on the frontier. They never believed that they would ever fight against the United States or their fellow officers. But eventually Robert E Lee and hundreds of other Southern officers did join the Confedracy and fight against their old country.

You can not totally trust anyone to always be loyal to the people and causes that you are loyal to now, not even you yourself. So the only way to prevent anyone from ever killing anyone you now wish to protect is to kill everyone in the world, including those you wish to protect and you yourself, in order to be absolutely certain that nobody will kill them in the future!

That does not make sense. And it does not make sense to kill everyone who might possibly kill someone in the future. If an enemy can be captured safely and confined with a reasonable expectation they will never escape to kill some of your people, you have to take them prisoner instead of killing them. You can't worry that they might escape and kill somebody on your side and use that as an excuse to kill them instead of capturing them.

Throughout history, countless men and and women and children have been killed by evil people who used the slight possibillity that they might be dangerous to people on their side as an excuse to kill them. It is a crime to worry so much about someone's potential danger that you kill them when you can capture them alive with ease.

If Euphemia was locked up with reasonable security she would be less dangerous than any of countless thousands and millions of rebels and soldiers in the world who were free and armed and might be given and obey orders to massacre.


I shall excuse your blatant misuse of History. By the way, in case you really, really haven't got it into your thick head, was killed AFTER she ordered the massacre. It wasn't because of the possibility of it happening, the possibility that she would kill someone, but because of the fact that she had already slaughtered thousands of elevens.
And please make sense. No-one would have been able to restrain her, anyway, because of the royal guard. Do you think that they would have allowed that to happen? Besides, she already gave them orders to kill the Elevens.

I said that if Euphemia was captured alive she could have been restrained and there would have been very little chance that she would ever kill someone after being captured . The chance that she would kill someone once she was captured and restrained would be too small to make it right to kill her to prevent it, since everyone who is free has a probability of killing someone in the future that is much greater than that of a homicidal maniac who is properly restrained and guarded, no matter how many people that homicidal maniac killed before being captured.

I know that Euphemia already killed "thousands" of elevens as you estimate the numbers. I meant that when Lelouch was face to face with Euphemia and had the choice of ending her rampage by killing her or by taking her prisoner, it would have been wrong, and was wrong, to chose to end the rampage by killing her instead of taking her prisoner. Because if she was a prisoner there would be very little chance that she would kill anyone else in the future, after the moment when Lelouch still could have decided to take her prisoner.

And why do you say the royal guard would not have let Euphemia be restrained? Were the Britannian soldiers at the Fuji Massacre part of the Royal Guard, or were they members of ordinary line units?

Anyway the Britannian soldiers at Fuji would have let Euphemia be restrained. They did let her be killed. They couldn't help it. Euphemia ordered all the units to chase the fleeing Japanese and shoot them down. Since the Japanese were fleeing in all directions the Britannians had to chase them in all directions and get farther and farther apart from each other. Euphemia probably realized that scattering her troops would make it easy for an hypothetical attacker to pick them off one by one, but the geass command probably forced her to use the tactic that would kill the most Japanese people before Cornelia arrived on the scene and took control and stopped the irrational massacre.

Suppose there had been a few Britannian soldiers with machine guns hiding nearby as the dreaded rebel leader Zero walked toward their Princess Euphemia. Wouldn't they have riddled Lelouch with bullets? And if there had been one or more nightmares on the scene Zero might have been blasted to atoms by a cannon blast as soon as he set foot on the ground.

And what do you mean that Euphemia had already ordered the soldiers to kill? If she could give orders she could cancel them. If an ordinary person was captured and tortured they might be very quick to cancel any order you wanted them to cancel. Of course, Euphemia was controlled by a geass command, but there might be ways to get even someone controlled by a geass command to cancel an order dictated by it.

Suppose Lelouch gave Euphemia and the geass command the choice between instant death and calling off the massacre and becoming his executioner, occasionally being allowed to kill Japanese people that Lelouch wanted to execute? They might accept that dubious offer as the better of two choices, no matter how little faith they had that Lelouch would actually let them kill very often..

Or Lelouch could transmit a video of the captured Euphemia on the Britannian command frequencies, and then demand that the Britannians stop the massacre to save her life.

Or if Lelouch noticed that Euphemia was no longer looking for Japanese people to kill, seemingly ignoring or unaware of the geass command to kill Japanese people, he could hope that she would come out of the control of the geass command enough to willingly order a stop to the massacre.

I don't know if no Japanese people were killed by Euphemia's soldiers after Lelouch shot her, or tens of Japanese, or hundreds, or thousands of Japanese. But Lelouch did not try to use Euphemia as a hostage to stop the massacre. Therefore he was guilty of killing any and all of the Japanese who may have been killed at Fuji after he might have stopped the massacre by using Euphie as a hostage.

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ZE=4] Quote:
If Euphemia was captured and confined she would be less dangerous than any free preson.

Take any person who is free. such as myself, proEephie, or Wolfgirl90, or xRiikox, or Alkazor, or anyone who is free. Anyone who is free can acquire a weapon, such as a gun, a knife, a club, etc., and kill someone if he or she decides to Or they could kill some one without a weapon, by pushing them off a balcony, or something. If a particular society has a murder rate of one per ten thousand per year, or one per one hundred thousand per year, or one per a million per year, then a native of that society would have a good chance of being murdered if he lived to be ten thousand, or a hundred thousand, or a million.

But there must be a murderer for every victim, although not an exact equal number of murderers and victims. So if you lived for ten thousand years, or one hundred thousand years, or a million years, depending on the crime rate in the (mostly far future) society you would live in, you will have a good chance of becoming a murderer at least once. Of course the more evil someone is the more likely he will be to commit murder, so we would all like to believe that we are among the more innocent group and thus less likely to commit murder. But most (though not all) murderers also like to think that they are in the more innocent group and less likely to commit murder, at some points in their lives before they actually do kill.

A lot of murderers are the kind of person that everyone who knew them expected to kill someone someday. But a lot of murderers do not seem very scary until they are accused. It is a cliche for the neighbors of a killer to say that he was such a nice quiet man who never gave any trouble. And many of them may have fooled themselves into believing they were good and innocent almost as long as they fooled the neighbors.

A stranger might calculate that any one of us might have a one in a million to one in a thousand chance of ever becoming a murderer, despite our beliefs that we are especially innocent.

If it is right to kill Euphemia because of the threat she would pose even in confinement it is even more right to kill any free person such as proEuphie, or +Namiko+ or wolfgirl90 because of the even bigger threat that any free person poses. If it is wrong to kill Blackrosetwilight or Akazor or wolfgirl90 or xRiikox or any other random free person because of the tiny, insignificant, threat he poses it is even more wrong to kill Euphemia because of the even smaller threat she would pose if captured and confined.

Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.


[/SIZE]

Ahhh. Simply Amazing. You are the first person I have met (albeit online) who would so literally drag an anime into real life, and aim it at real-life people. Unfortunately, I do not think the anime world of Code Geass should be abused this way by you. What has happened has happened, I give you sound advice: get over it. I suppose you would verily bleed your heart out, or die, if Euphemia was killed. Oh, but brilliant, she has been, and you're still alive, aren't you? Don't give me some crap about how your poor heart bleeds for her or how you sobbed your pitiful eyes out at her funeral. Euphemia is a nice character, don't make me hate her. Your delusion has nothing to do with Wolfgirl, because she is not like you are, she is a nice and normal person, not like you.


I don't know how to judge the ethics of a anime character except by the same standards which I use to judge the ethics of real people. So I have to drag Code geass into the real world or the real world into Code Geass.

Let us use another hypothetical example from the real world. Suppose that person A, a citizen of country B, learned that person C was a citizen of country D.

Suppose that person A thought:"I estimate that there is a one percent chance that Country D and my country, B, will go to war in the next ten years. In that time person C might join the armed forces of country D and kill some of my countrymen during the war which has a one percent chance of breaking out. Therefore I should kill person C now to prevent that small chance that he might someday kill some of my countrymen?"

Wouldn't you agree that it would be senseless for person A to kill person C because of that line of reasoning? The one percent probability of war between the two countries, combined with the low probability that a specific citizen of Country D would join the armed forces of that country before or during the war, and combined with the small probability that any individual member of the armed forces of country D would kill one or more citizens of Country B during the war, combine to make the danger from person C very, very small. So Small that it would be senseless to kill person C to prevent that small danger to his countrymen.

And yet the chance that person C would kill natives of country B during a war sometime in the next ten years would probably be much greater than the probability that any specific person would ever kill anybody in the future. At least if person A estimated the chances of war between the two countries correctly.

So if it would be unreasonable for person A to kill person C, then it would be even more unreasonable to kill any random person, such as myself or you, or my example wolfgirl90, because of the even smaller possibility that they would ever kill anyone.

And if it would be wrong to kill any random free person, such as you or myself or wolfgirl90, because of the tiny possibility that they might take advantage of their freedom to kill someone in the future, then it would be even more wrong to kill someone who could be captured and confined, because of the even tinier possibility that a confined person might break out of confinement to kill someone.

It would be wrong and senseless for person A to kill person C. It would be even more wrong and senseless to kill any randomly selected free person, such as you, myself, or my example wolfgirl90, because of the even tinier chance that they might kill someone in the future. And it would be even more wrong still and more senseless still to kill Euphemia instead of capturing her, since the probability of her killing someone while confined would be even less than that of any random free person killing someone.

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Quote: And after all the arguments pros and cons I am more convinced than ever that Euphemia defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch and again in the sickbay. And thus she would not have been dangerous and would not have suffered.

But even if my opponents are right that Euphemia did not escape from the control of the geass, her behavior during the periods when I think she was free from the geass control has to be explained. If the geass did control her, how is that consistent with the idea of her being constantly dangerous while controlled by the geass, or suffering if she couldn't find any Japanese people to kill?

If Euphemia was still controlled by the geass while talking to Lelouch, and in the sickbay, then the geass was not a slave driver but an easygoing master that did not demand excessive effort from those it controlled.

So Euphemia would not have been very dangerous in confinement, and she would not have suffered much from her failure to find victims.

Wolfgirl90 believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia for evil motives but her death was a good thing because of the danger she might possibly kill someone and because she might suffer from captivity and the stress of not being able to satisfy the geass command. I think that the discussions of Euphemia's behavior during the periods that I think she was free from the geass shows that she would not have been very dangerous in confinement and that she would not have suffered very much, whether she escaped from the geass or not.

Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be. [/SIZE]


I think you have got it wrong. We are NOT discussing if killing Euphemia was a good thing or not. We are discussing if Euphemia escaped from the control of the Geass she was under before she died; read the thread title, please. We were not your 'opponents', as you so pleasantly state. In the first place, we did not want a debate. You started one. By the abuse you always recieve, shouldn't you get the point into your THICK HEAD already that no-one wants you in the Code Geass forum (or any other forum, actually) unless you change? But I think that's pretty much a lost cause now.

It's okay if you want everyone to hate you, but [I]do stop spamming. Many people have probably told you this, right? Thus your rapidly declining reputation that cannot be reduced any more than it is. I wonder what people think of you in real life; do they cover their ears when you come near? Ah well, I rest my case. It is absolutely typical of you to drag your conflict from another of your threads into this one, and then critisize anyone who has a different opinion. Arigatou gozaimashita.

I call you my oponents because I think of you as the opposing side in a debate and thus opponents. I do not mean that in the sense of enemies or foes.

I am discussing whether it was right to kill Euphemia. I claim that it is obviously better to capture someone alive than to kill them if they can be captured safely and easily. Since Euphemia obviously could have been captured safely and easily that should be the end of the matter.

But some of the posters in this forum have claimed that since Euphemia would be controlled by the geass for the rest of her life she had to be killed, because of the danger that even a confined person might kill somebody in the future, and because her hypothetical suffering from the pressure of the geass command while she was a prisoner would hypothetically make her suffer a lot during confinement.

Therefore I planned a two pronged rsponse to that opinion.
1) I would remind them that a person, no matter how homicidal they may, who is confined with good security has much less chance of ever escaping to kill someone than any randomly selected free person has ofkilling somone in the future. And I would point out that Euphemiia's suffering was hypothetical and it is unwise to justify killing someone on the basis of a hypothetical guess that they might conceivably be better off dead under some future circumstances. After all, anyone who ever wants to kills omeone could claim and perhaps convince himself that his intended victim would be better off dead for some reason, no matter how happy that intended victim actually is.

2) And i would try to find evidence that Euphemia escaped from the control of her geass command enough to no longer seek Japanese victims (which would be enough of an escape from their point of view) and enough to no longer remember the massacre clearly by the time that Lelouch Shot her.

Thus I created this thread. This thread may be devoted to a technical issue but it is part of alarger discussion whether there was any justification for killing Euphemia.

+Namiko+
08-25-2009, 02:33 PM
Quote: "No. It made bad tv.

How can it make good tv to concentrate 90 percent of the goodness of all of the characters in one single character, and kill that character halfway through the show? How can there be suspense when the worst thing which can possibly happen to any or all of the characters has alrady happened, when nothing signifiantly good or bad can happen to the few remaining good cast members that can significantly inceasse or decease the overall evilness of all the events in the series?

And if the producers seriously intended for the audience to have any sympathy for Lelouch after he senselessly killed Euphemia, then episodes 22 and 23 may be amoung the most evil television episodes ever produced."

AAND

Quote: "I don't know how to judge the ethics of a anime character except by the same standards which I use to judge the ethics of real people. So I have to drag Code geass into the real world or the real world into Code Geass."


Ok. you want to drag this isto the real world? Then here's something you havent figured out.


LIFE ISNT FAIR


BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE ALL THE TIME


NICE INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE ABUSED AND KILLED.


THIS IS REALITY.


And yes, it made very good TV by adding to the DRAMA which YOU CANT SEEM TO HANDLE. And please stop refering to us as your opponents. That is completely irritating.

GET OVER IT.

Code Geass was basically a 60 episode long Pizza Hut commerical that decided to TORTURE one human being to see how much he could take. That person was LELOUCH. Do you honestly think he WANTED to kill Euphie? He CRIED into C.C.s ARMS after he did it!! He LOVED her! OK!?!??! He had his REASONS. And he even

SACRIFICED HIMSELF TO AVENGE HER!!!!!!!
SO GET OVER IT! HE'S NOT HITLER.

Lelouch is portrayed brilliantly as one of the best tactical minds in history, but if you think you know better than him, then have fun in your fantasy world.

proEuphie
08-25-2009, 09:15 PM
Quote: "No. It made bad tv.

How can it make good tv to concentrate 90 percent of the goodness of all of the characters in one single character, and kill that character halfway through the show? How can there be suspense when the worst thing which can possibly happen to any or all of the characters has alrady happened, when nothing signifiantly good or bad can happen to the few remaining good cast members that can significantly inceasse or decease the overall evilness of all the events in the series?

And if the producers seriously intended for the audience to have any sympathy for Lelouch after he senselessly killed Euphemia, then episodes 22 and 23 may be amoung the most evil television episodes ever produced."

AAND

Quote: "I don't know how to judge the ethics of a anime character except by the same standards which I use to judge the ethics of real people. So I have to drag Code geass into the real world or the real world into Code Geass."


Ok. you want to drag this isto the real world? Then here's something you havent figured out.


1) LIFE ISNT FAIR


BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE ALL THE TIME


NICE INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE ABUSED AND KILLED.


THIS IS REALITY.


2) And yes, it made very good TV by adding to the DRAMA which YOU CANT SEEM TO HANDLE. 3) And please stop refering to us as your opponents. That is completely irritating.

GET OVER IT.

4) Code Geass was basically a 60 episode long Pizza Hut commerical that decided to TORTURE one human being to see how much he could take. That person was LELOUCH. 5) Do you honestly think he WANTED to kill Euphie? 6) He CRIED into C.C.s ARMS after he did it!! He LOVED her! OK!?!??! 5) He had his REASONS. And he even

7) SACRIFICED HIMSELF TO AVENGE HER!!!!!!!
SO GET OVER IT! 8) HE'S NOT HITLER.

9) Lelouch is. portrayed brilliantly as one of the best tactical minds in history, but if you think you know better than him, then have fun in your fantasy world

1) Life isn't fair. So people should try to be fair to compensate for it. And a lot of people are not fair, so the rest should try to be even fairer to compensate. And we should make heroes out of people who try to be fair, not those who do things which are obviously unfair.

And yes I know that bad things happen to good people. I read a lot of history. I have a joke that the reason that I am interested in history is because I like horror stories. But I have never read anything in history which convinces me that good people can do bad things to good people. I say that doing bad things to good people always makes someone a bad person. No matter how many examples of historic characters that you think are good despite their doing bad things to good people you may throw at me, I will always claim that they were evil despite your opinion that they were good.

I am quite prepared to say that everyone of the one hundred thousand most famous people in history was evil, except for some of the ones who were children, if you want to try to convince me that the most revered heroes in history did bad things to good people but were not evil.

2) And how can killing Euphemia add to the drama? The only way it would add to the drama would be if the main plot of the second season turned out to be Suzaku's quest to get justice or revenge on Lelouch, with the grand climax of the series being the final bloody confrontation between Suzaku and Lelouch. But instead Euphemia's death was just another sensational plot twist which the characters who seemed most motivated to avenge would conveniently ignore whenever the requirements of the plot made it necessary. And thus it was a meaningless bit of unnecessary violence.

3) I refer to you as my opponents because I thought that the general trend of this thread is a debate between the supporters of two different opinions.

4) And what to you mean that Lelouch suffered a lot during the series? What about Suzaku?

He certainly suffered a lot more from the death of Euphemia than Lelouch did. For the whole year between the first and second seasons Lelouch did not remember anything from his past life and thus did not feel any guilt, remorse, or regret, for killing Euphemia. He even believed the official Brittannian story that she had ordered the massacre and been executed by the imperial government. If he ever thought about her it was as a notorious criminal who got what she deserved.

While Suzaku, depending on how much he loved Euphemia, would not have let a day, or maybe an hour, go by without thinking of her with sorrow. I wonder how many times during that year he cursed himself for obediently bringing Lelouch back alive, instead of torturing hm to death in bloody vengeance.

Suzaku turned out to be so great a failure at the whole "get bloody vengeance on those who kill your loved ones" thing that eventually he had to become a henchman of his enemy, helping him in his plans in return for the promise of being able to kill him when he wanted to be killed. People who want revenge on their enemies all agree its no fun to kill them when they want you to do it.

And I think that Nunnally suffered more than Lelouch from their separation for a year between the first and second seasons, since Lelouch could not even remember that he had a sister Nunnally.

And for the year between the first and second seasons, which probably lasted much longer than both seasons combined, Lelouch was punished for rebellion, treason, and murder by living the life of a wealthy, popular, high school student. What a fiendish punishment! What cruelty! How barbaric!

5) Lelouch pointed a gun at Euphemia's torso, packed with vital organs, and pulled the trigger. Since he could have captured her alive with no danger to himself, and she could have be confined with less chance of ever killing someone than you or I have, I kind of get the impression that for some unknown reason he wanted to kill Euphemia.

You say that Lelouch had his reasons for killing Euphemia. It seems obvious to me that he could have captured her alive such as safely, just as fast, and just as easy as he killed her. And capturing her and confining her would have ended her danger to others just as well as killing her. So how could there be any imaginable good reasons for killing her?

Perhaps the reason why Lelouch cried about killing Euphemia was that he realized that he had given into his evil impulses and deliberately killed an innocent person when he had no need to.

6) Lelouch's defenders make a lot about his grief and regret about killing Euphie. Almost every human being, good or evil, feels at least a little bit of grief, sorrow, regret, and guilt over killing another person, no matter how justified they think that killing was.

In Oliver Twist Bill Sykes intentionally murdered Nancy. But even though he wanted to kill her, when she was dead he was filled with grief and sorrow over what he had done. He walked all through the night, not noticing where he went, just feeling his guilt and sorrow. He walked from London Bridge to Hatfield, eighteen miles in a straight line and more as he wandered, and back to central London in a daze caused by his regret and guilt.

And many real murderers have felt just as much guilt and sorrow and vain regret as Bill Sykes, and not been any less guilty for it.

In some of my posts I have mentioned that my grandfather once cried with guilt over shooting a pheasant. He displayed almost as much grief over killing a bird as Lelouch did over killing Euphemia. And my grandfather was not just a peaceful, kind, sensitive civilian, but also a war hero, killing and capturing several enemy soldiers at the age of eighteen. No doubt some of the relatives of those he killed and captured would have thought that he was way too bold, aggressive, and brutal, and not nearly kind, gentle, and sensitive enough for them.

I say that the grief that my grandfather showed for killing a bird was much closer to being appropiate and normal than the grief that Lelouch showed for killing Euphemia.

7) You say that Lelouch sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia. In other posts you say that he sacrificed himself to save the world. It seems to me that unless his reason for having himself be killed was at least 75 percent guilt over Euphemia and no more than 25 percent an effort to save the world, it would not be right to say flatly that he sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia, because saving the world would seem to have the highest possible priority in most people's minds.

Suppose that Lelouch did sacrifice himself mainly to avenge Euphemia. But a man who murders someone and eventually commits suicide to atone for it is less good than his other self in an alternate universe where he is tempted to commit that murder but decides not to, and lets the intended victim live.

8) Lelouch was not Hitler? Is that how you defend him?

Well, Genghis Khan was not Hitler, but that doesn't make him good. Some people say that he and his followers must have been even more evil than Hitler and the Nazis, to murder at least as many people face to face instead of sending them off to the death camps to be killed out of sight. And Stalin was not Hitler or Genghis khan, but some people believe that he was more evil than either of them.

Tamerlane was not Hitler, or Stalin, or Genghis Khan, but some people have called him the most evil leader in History.

So I could grant you that Lelouch was no Hitler, no Stalin, no Tamerlane, no Genghis Khan, but what would that prove? That he was not as bad as the top ten most evil people in history? That would still make it possible that he was as bad as one of the the top one hundred most evil people in history, or one of the thousand most evil people in history, or one of the ten thousand most evil people in history, etc.

If you claim, and prove, that Lelouch was not as evil as Hitler, you still have a long, long, long, long, long way to go to prove that he was so very, very, very, very, very much better than Hitler than he was a good person and not an evil person.

9) You say that: "Lelouch is. portrayed brilliantly as one of the best tactical minds in history, but if you think you know better than him, then have fun in your fantasy world"

Lelouch is not portrayed brilliantly as one of the great tactical minds in history. The writers and producers of the series would have to brilliant tacticians themselves to consistently imagine brilliant tactics for him (and thus they would be in the wrong occupation). Some of the tactics they imagined for Lelouch make him seem a lot more brilliant than others do.

And even the most famous and respected generals in history have had their tactics questioned by historians who claim that alternate strategies would have been better. If you believe all the criticisms made of even the greatest general in history he would seem pretty dumb. And if only about, for example, ten percent of the criticisms are justified that would still mean that even the greatest generals in history often make mistakes. If any of our, no doubt few, readers ever go into battle, they should remember that even the most brilliant generals such as they hope their generals will be, sometimes make stupid mistakes.

I say that not killing people that you personally know are wonderfully innocent unless you absolutely, positively have to do so to save other innocent lives is a pretty obvious rule. Lelouch clearly could have captured Euphemia alive just as fast, just as easy, and just a safely as he killed her. And capturing and confining Euphemia would be just as safe for the Japanese as killing her, and a lot better for her. So I can't see any imaginable good reason for killing her.

And I can't imagine that any general could be so brilliant as to see a good reason for killing Euphemia that escapes me. That would be like imagining that someone would be so smart he could prove that red is blue, for example.

And even if Lelouch had consistently been just as brilliant a tactician in twenty seasons or two hundred seasons as he was in two, his reputation as a great general would not be strong enough to make me say that he must have had a good reason that I am too dumb to recognize. Not when killing Euphemia is so obviously senseless.

You say that Lelouch sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia's death. If so, he made a big mistake killing her for no good reason, since that murder eventually caused his own death which he could have avoided by not murdering her.

lilminx
08-25-2009, 09:26 PM
this thread is going on for ages >.<

but i still wanted to reply to the question. euphemia did not escape from her geass before lelouch shot her BUT she did manage to do something similar to that during her last few minutes.with the help of her love for suzaku....

wolfgirl90
08-25-2009, 09:33 PM
I point out that:

1) she was not doing anything to obey the geass when Lelouch shot her despite your claim that she could hear living Japanese people screaming for mercy and thus asking to be killed if she was still controlled by the geass,

2) She didn't react to the knowledge that the Black Knights had just attacked her which she would have known if she remembered everything due to still being controlled by the geass,

3) In the sickbay she was still strong enough to kill and thus she must have defeated the geass command.

And you just say that she could not possibly defeat her geass command based on what is known about geass from the first and second seasons.

I say that Euphemia defeating her geass command is an important part of the total evidence about how geass works, and may have been written into the series with that intention. You may say that other evidence proves that Humans can not defeat geass commands and that even the gods can not resist geass commands. But that merely proves that Euphemia and Nunnally, who resisted and defeated geass, are in that respect higher than humans and the gods.

The problem with your "points" is that they are all pure speculation. Those actions NEVER occurred and thus, cannot be accounted for and answered and, like I told you before, just because a question cannot answered does not mean that it is a question that proves your point (the best things those questions are are plot holes, but again, they do not prove ANYTHING; take it up with the writers if it bothers you so much).:rolleyes:

Again, Code Geass is a cartoon, a show that runs on a script and a very limited universe. It does not involve real actions or real people. Because of this, any action that DOES NOT occur in the series itself can not be used as proof of anything. Why didn't Euphemia kill Suzaku in the sickbay? Because it was NOT IN THE SCRIPT! End of story. That is the ONLY reason why this did not occur (short of it making absolutely no sense whatsoever). It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Geass (which you can't really argue about anyway, since you are missing more than half a series worth of information about the Geass). Unless you give me evidence of actions that ACTUALLY occurred in the series, rather than speculation of events that never even occurred, then your argument is moot. And again, the burden of proof lies on you, not me. It is YOUR job to show me evidence of Euphemia breaking the Geass; its NOT my job to break through your nonsense.


Wolfgirl90 once wrote that she is in the military. If so, the slight but real potential danger that she might be ordered to take part in a terrible massacre and obey those orders is greater than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia. If Euphemia should be killed instead of captured because of her potential danger to others, wolfgirl90 should be killed to end the danger she represents, which is very small but much larger than the potential danger of a confined Euphemia..

But Wolfgirl90 does not believe that she is so dangerous that she should be killed to end that danger, even though she is obviously more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined.

Hehe...proEuphie, once again, if you are going to talk about me, talk DIRECTLY to me. Otherwise, you are going to bring up something about me that you know little about (and you barely know me to begin with).;)

While insubordination carries a very severe punishment in the military, we are not allowed to take part in civilian massacres, even if the massacre was ordered by our commanding officer. That goes against our Code of Conduct, my personal moral code, and effectively violates any other international law you can think of (its called a war crime for a reason, genius). If we believe that an order goes against any Code or law, we are allowed to not follow that order (though we will have to explain ourselves).

Euphemia was not merely a "potential" danger to others: she was ALREADY a danger to others, since she just killed a large number of people and was still in the process of killing said people. As it stands now, yes, I am certainly a lesser danger than a blood-thirsty girl shooting off bullets in every other direction. And IF I was in the same position, while I would certainly like someone to save my life, if there was no other way, I would rather be shot than continue to take the lives of others.

Also, I will give you the opportunity to edit a certain part of your post before taking action against you. I am more than certain that suggesting my DEATH on the imaginary grounds that I could commit an unjustified homicide because of my weapons training (Really? Come on, now...:rolleyes:), and suggesting it more than once, can get your little butt banned from this site.


Anyway, Wolfgirl90 also wrote that since Euphemia could not be cured of the geass she would go crazy trying to find Japanese people to kill while she was confined. Wolfgirl90 imagined that Euphemia would foam at the mouth and rave like a raving lunatic in her frustration at not being able to kill Japanese people.

This was not something I "imagined". It was based off of the fact that the girl who drew the crosses on the walls at Ashford went nuts when she was sent back home to Pendragon and pretty much lost her mind (for lack of a better word) when she could not perform the command of the Geass. Because of this, I hypothesized that Euphemia would react the exact same way if she was confined in a cell.


But it is wrong to kill someone because you think that they will suffer if left alive. If they do suffer, suicide or death from old age will put an end to their suffering soon enough. Lelouch did not have the right to even think about how much Euphemia might possibly suffer if he did the right thing and took her prisoner, let alone decide that her hypothetical suffering would be worse than death.

Depending on the person, yeah, death from old age and suicide would end the suffering of said person. HOWEVER, if the person is already suffering, suffice to say, I am not going to wait for them to die of old age to end their suffering, if they are going to suffer for years upon years rather than a quick death. If a person is going through severe, agonizing pain and trauma and there is nothing that can help him, why would I wait for his eventual death, which could occur between now and 40 years from now (and mind you, he will be suffering the ENTIRE TIME), when I could end his suffering now?:closedeye

Of course, Lelouch did not kill Euphemia to "end her suffering" (at least, that is not the principle reason). He killed her because it was the best thing he could do in order to turn the situation over to his side


Therefore wolfgirl90 was wrong and killing Euphemia was not a good thing, but even less good than she believes that killing herself, wolfgirl90, would be.

Has this argument about Euphemia suddenly turned into an argument against me? By the way, this would be fourth time that you have called me out in a post, rather than replying directly to me. Instead of acting like a person with a legitimate argument, you are now acting like a troll (and as you can tell by the medal under my avatar, I have an interesting knack for burning trolls:p).

In case you haven't noticed, proEuphie, I am certainly not the only person arguing against you. The main one, yes (well, you turned me into the main one), but certainly not the only one. Are you trying to turn people against me or something? Or are you saying that since I am wrong, you must be right (by your rather convoluted reasoning based on speculations and total nonsense), despite evidence to the contrary given by everyone here?;)

And yes, I think that Euphemia's death would be worth less than my own. Much less in fact. Why? Because Euphemia is CARTOON CHARACTER! Her "death" is an event that technically did not occur because she is not real. The fact that you are even comparing my real life to her fake one means that you do not have a very firm grasp on the value of a human life (or any life, for that matter), which is why you are more than comfortable talking about my DEATH or suggesting that I be KILLED because I disagree with you on the certain moral standards of dealing with the actions of a darn CARTOON CHARACTER!!:banghead:

Once again, I think you should either edit your post or reread what you said and apologize before I decide take action against you.

proEuphie
08-26-2009, 10:47 PM
*highfive* :3 :laugh:
yay n_n i feel special!

If you like his response to my post you should read my post number 144 in which I respond to it.

+Namiko+
08-27-2009, 10:02 PM
Quote: "And how can killing Euphemia add to the drama? "
Are you blind? Wait stupid question, why else would you have started this thread.

Ummm...

last time I checked, someone Dying adds to drama, which is kind of why all those people in Dramas, you know, DIE!?

The point I am making, again and again and again, is that YOU dont seem to be able to handle it. You are obviously either way to young or way to immature to handle it. So go watch Kim Possible where no one dies and have fun.

Quote: "If you like his response to my post you should read my post number 144 in which I respond to it."

and if that was some attempt to be smart with me, dont, you WILL lose.


You seem to be completely unaware that you sound like a five year old with a dictionary who just watched peter cottontail get shot.


Anime characters are pawns to the producers of the show. Code geass was made to get money. The DEATH of a nice character made it more interesting and the twist was so unexpected that it made people wonder "what will happen next?"


And yes, lelouch did suffer.
He lost his mother,
his fahter didnt want him and treated him like a political tool,
hie BEST friend became his enemy
his was forced to kill his sister and brother
his father took nunally away
he was left alone near the end of the series
he was lead to beleive that nunally was dead, which tore him apart
He discovered that his mother was actually a psycho that really didnt care much for him anyway
His sister hated him despite the fact that every thing he had done was for her

dont you TELL me that he didn't suffer as much as ANYONE on that show. no one even came close.



You fail as an anime fan.

proEuphie
08-27-2009, 10:38 PM
The problem with your "points" is that they are all pure speculation. Those actions NEVER occurred and thus, cannot be accounted for and answered and, like I told you before, just because a question cannot answered does not mean that it is a question that proves your point (the best things those questions are are plot holes, but again, they do not prove ANYTHING; take it up with the writers if it bothers you so much).:rolleyes:

Again, Code Geass is a cartoon, a show that runs on a script and a very limited universe. It does not involve real actions or real people. Because of this, any action that DOES NOT occur in the series itself can not be used as proof of anything. Why didn't Euphemia kill Suzaku in the sickbay? Because it was NOT IN THE SCRIPT! End of story. That is the ONLY reason why this did not occur (short of it making absolutely no sense whatsoever). It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Geass (which you can't really argue about anyway, since you are missing more than half a series worth of information about the Geass). Unless you give me evidence of actions that ACTUALLY occurred in the series, rather than speculation of events that never even occurred, then your argument is moot. And again, the burden of proof lies on you, not me. It is YOUR job to show me evidence of Euphemia breaking the Geass; its NOT my job to break through your nonsense.





Hehe...proEuphie, once again, if you are going to talk about me, talk DIRECTLY to me. Otherwise, you are going to bring up something about me that you know little about (and you barely know me to begin with).;)

While insubordination carries a very severe punishment in the military, we are not allowed to take part in civilian massacres, even if the massacre was ordered by our commanding officer. That goes against our Code of Conduct, my personal moral code, and effectively violates any other international law you can think of (its called a war crime for a reason, genius). If we believe that an order goes against any Code or law, we are allowed to not follow that order (though we will have to explain ourselves).

Euphemia was not merely a "potential" danger to others: she was ALREADY a danger to others, since she just killed a large number of people and was still in the process of killing said people. As it stands now, yes, I am certainly a lesser danger than a blood-thirsty girl shooting off bullets in every other direction. And IF I was in the same position, while I would certainly like someone to save my life, if there was no other way, I would rather be shot than continue to take the lives of others.

Also, I will give you the opportunity to edit a certain part of your post before taking action against you. I am more than certain that suggesting my DEATH on the imaginary grounds that I could commit an unjustified homicide because of my weapons training (Really? Come on, now...:rolleyes:), and suggesting it more than once, can get your little butt banned from this site.


Okay. I have edited the passage from my post # 135 that you quote above. I hope you like it better. I think that it expresses my meaning better, so I suppose that I should thank you. Thank you.

I assure you I have no interest in anything as trivial as deliberately insulting people. I tell you that I have not yet begun to insult and have no intention of starting. But it takes me enough time just to correct my typos, I don't have any time left over to imagine if someone who cares about insults would feel insulted by what I write.

If you want you can go into all the posts in which that passage has been quoted and replace it with the new passage. Since it has mostly been reproduced by people arguing against me I see no reason to do it myself.

Okay, I just rewote that section in post # 144 because that ws one of my posts.

One of the posts in which it has been quoted is # 144. it is followed by a quote box of xRiikox's comments and then by my reply to his comments. In it I use the case of a hypothetical person A deciding to kill person B and say that it is obviously wrong for person A to kill person C. I also say that it would be even more wrong to kill a random free person, such are yourself, because of the real but slight possibility that you might someday kill somebody, a possibility that is even slighter than the possibility that person C might someday kill a countryman of person A.

And then I go on to say that it would be even more wrong to kill a homicidal manic like Euphemia instead of confining them if the decision was based on the possibility that they might kill someone in the future, since a confined person has even less chance of killing someone than a free person such as yourself does and thus it is even less right to kill someone instead of confining them than it would be to kill a free person such as yourself.

Thus I set up an hierarchy in which it is obviously wrong for person A to kill person C based on the slight chance that person C might kill some countryman of person A, compared to the even wronger case of killing a free person such as yourself based on the even slighter chance that you might kill someone and wrongest still to kill someone like Euphemia instead of confining them based on the even slighter still chance that if confined she might kill someone.

You may think that it is entirely impossible for you to ever commit a murder instead of, very, very unlikely, maybe one chance in a million or whatever, but many people believe that everyone has a slight chance of committing murder, no matter how tiny that its.

And I did not suggest that you should be killed because of the chance that you might commit murder, merely that it is obvious to an impartial observer that any free person, such as you or me, has a greater chance of someday committing a murder than a person who is confined.

If you acknowledge that you will have to admit that it makes more sense to kill any random free person, such as your or me, than to kill someone instead of confining them, for fear they might escape and kill somebody.

Therefore since you and I both believe that it would be wrong to kill us for fear that we might kill someone someday, we must logically also believe that it is ever more wrong to kill Euphemia, instead of confining her, based on fear she might escape and kill someone some day.

I hope that makes my point without insulting you.

And when I spoke about the potential danger of a confined Euphemia ever killing someone being less than the potential danger that a free person might kill some one, I was speaking about the potential danger in the future if she was captured and confined. I was not suggesting that the geass command had not used her body to kill people before Lelouch faced her and had his last chance to change his mind.

For example, Charles Manson killed people before he was arrested. And he has been locked up for almost forty years. During that time millions of innocent children who each seemed millions of times less dangerous than him have grown up and committed murders, while he has not managed to kill anyone. Clearly the potential danger represented by a Charles Mansion in confinement is much less than the potential danger represented by any free and innocent child who might grow up to be a killer.
/quote]

Rei
08-28-2009, 01:10 AM
1) Life isn't fair. So people should try to be fair to compensate for it. And a lot of people are not fair, so the rest should try to be even fairer to compensate. And we should make heroes out of people who try to be fair, not those who do things which are obviously unfair.

And yes I know that bad things happen to good people. I read a lot of history. I have a joke that the reason that I am interested in history is because I like horror stories. But I have never read anything in history which convinces me that good people can do bad things to good people. I say that doing bad things to good people always makes someone a bad person. No matter how many examples of historic characters that you think are good despite their doing bad things to good people you may throw at me, I will always claim that they were evil despite your opinion that they were good.

I am quite prepared to say that everyone of the one hundred thousand most famous people in history was evil, except for some of the ones who were children, if you want to try to convince me that the most revered heroes in history did bad things to good people but were not evil.

2) And how can killing Euphemia add to the drama? The only way it would add to the drama would be if the main plot of the second season turned out to be Suzaku's quest to get justice or revenge on Lelouch, with the grand climax of the series being the final bloody confrontation between Suzaku and Lelouch. But instead Euphemia's death was just another sensational plot twist which the characters who seemed most motivated to avenge would conveniently ignore whenever the requirements of the plot made it necessary. And thus it was a meaningless bit of unnecessary violence.

3) I refer to you as my opponents because I thought that the general trend of this thread is a debate between the supporters of two different opinions.

4) And what to you mean that Lelouch suffered a lot during the series? What about Suzaku?

He certainly suffered a lot more from the death of Euphemia than Lelouch did. For the whole year between the first and second seasons Lelouch did not remember anything from his past life and thus did not feel any guilt, remorse, or regret, for killing Euphemia. He even believed the official Brittannian story that she had ordered the massacre and been executed by the imperial government. If he ever thought about her it was as a notorious criminal who got what she deserved.

While Suzaku, depending on how much he loved Euphemia, would not have let a day, or maybe an hour, go by without thinking of her with sorrow. I wonder how many times during that year he cursed himself for obediently bringing Lelouch back alive, instead of torturing hm to death in bloody vengeance.

Suzaku turned out to be so great a failure at the whole "get bloody vengeance on those who kill your loved ones" thing that eventually he had to become a henchman of his enemy, helping him in his plans in return for the promise of being able to kill him when he wanted to be killed. People who want revenge on their enemies all agree its no fun to kill them when they want you to do it.

And I think that Nunnally suffered more than Lelouch from their separation for a year between the first and second seasons, since Lelouch could not even remember that he had a sister Nunnally.

And for the year between the first and second seasons, which probably lasted much longer than both seasons combined, Lelouch was punished for rebellion, treason, and murder by living the life of a wealthy, popular, high school student. What a fiendish punishment! What cruelty! How barbaric!

5) Lelouch pointed a gun at Euphemia's torso, packed with vital organs, and pulled the trigger. Since he could have captured her alive with no danger to himself, and she could have be confined with less chance of ever killing someone than you or I have, I kind of get the impression that for some unknown reason he wanted to kill Euphemia.

You say that Lelouch had his reasons for killing Euphemia. It seems obvious to me that he could have captured her alive such as safely, just as fast, and just as easy as he killed her. And capturing her and confining her would have ended her danger to others just as well as killing her. So how could there be any imaginable good reasons for killing her?

Perhaps the reason why Lelouch cried about killing Euphemia was that he realized that he had given into his evil impulses and deliberately killed an innocent person when he had no need to.

6) Lelouch's defenders make a lot about his grief and regret about killing Euphie. Almost every human being, good or evil, feels at least a little bit of grief, sorrow, regret, and guilt over killing another person, no matter how justified they think that killing was.

In Oliver Twist Bill Sykes intentionally murdered Nancy. But even though he wanted to kill her, when she was dead he was filled with grief and sorrow over what he had done. He walked all through the night, not noticing where he went, just feeling his guilt and sorrow. He walked from London Bridge to Hatfield, eighteen miles in a straight line and more as he wandered, and back to central London in a daze caused by his regret and guilt.

And many real murderers have felt just as much guilt and sorrow and vain regret as Bill Sykes, and not been any less guilty for it.

In some of my posts I have mentioned that my grandfather once cried with guilt over shooting a pheasant. He displayed almost as much grief over killing a bird as Lelouch did over killing Euphemia. And my grandfather was not just a peaceful, kind, sensitive civilian, but also a war hero, killing and capturing several enemy soldiers at the age of eighteen. No doubt some of the relatives of those he killed and captured would have thought that he was way too bold, aggressive, and brutal, and not nearly kind, gentle, and sensitive enough for them.

I say that the grief that my grandfather showed for killing a bird was much closer to being appropiate and normal than the grief that Lelouch showed for killing Euphemia.

7) You say that Lelouch sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia. In other posts you say that he sacrificed himself to save the world. It seems to me that unless his reason for having himself be killed was at least 75 percent guilt over Euphemia and no more than 25 percent an effort to save the world, it would not be right to say flatly that he sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia, because saving the world would seem to have the highest possible priority in most people's minds.

Suppose that Lelouch did sacrifice himself mainly to avenge Euphemia. But a man who murders someone and eventually commits suicide to atone for it is less good than his other self in an alternate universe where he is tempted to commit that murder but decides not to, and lets the intended victim live.

8) Lelouch was not Hitler? Is that how you defend him?

Well, Genghis Khan was not Hitler, but that doesn't make him good. Some people say that he and his followers must have been even more evil than Hitler and the Nazis, to murder at least as many people face to face instead of sending them off to the death camps to be killed out of sight. And Stalin was not Hitler or Genghis khan, but some people believe that he was more evil than either of them.

Tamerlane was not Hitler, or Stalin, or Genghis Khan, but some people have called him the most evil leader in History.

So I could grant you that Lelouch was no Hitler, no Stalin, no Tamerlane, no Genghis Khan, but what would that prove? That he was not as bad as the top ten most evil people in history? That would still make it possible that he was as bad as one of the the top one hundred most evil people in history, or one of the thousand most evil people in history, or one of the ten thousand most evil people in history, etc.

If you claim, and prove, that Lelouch was not as evil as Hitler, you still have a long, long, long, long, long way to go to prove that he was so very, very, very, very, very much better than Hitler than he was a good person and not an evil person.

9) You say that: "Lelouch is. portrayed brilliantly as one of the best tactical minds in history, but if you think you know better than him, then have fun in your fantasy world"

Lelouch is not portrayed brilliantly as one of the great tactical minds in history. The writers and producers of the series would have to brilliant tacticians themselves to consistently imagine brilliant tactics for him (and thus they would be in the wrong occupation). Some of the tactics they imagined for Lelouch make him seem a lot more brilliant than others do.

And even the most famous and respected generals in history have had their tactics questioned by historians who claim that alternate strategies would have been better. If you believe all the criticisms made of even the greatest general in history he would seem pretty dumb. And if only about, for example, ten percent of the criticisms are justified that would still mean that even the greatest generals in history often make mistakes. If any of our, no doubt few, readers ever go into battle, they should remember that even the most brilliant generals such as they hope their generals will be, sometimes make stupid mistakes.

I say that not killing people that you personally know are wonderfully innocent unless you absolutely, positively have to do so to save other innocent lives is a pretty obvious rule. Lelouch clearly could have captured Euphemia alive just as fast, just as easy, and just a safely as he killed her. And capturing and confining Euphemia would be just as safe for the Japanese as killing her, and a lot better for her. So I can't see any imaginable good reason for killing her.

And I can't imagine that any general could be so brilliant as to see a good reason for killing Euphemia that escapes me. That would be like imagining that someone would be so smart he could prove that red is blue, for example.

And even if Lelouch had consistently been just as brilliant a tactician in twenty seasons or two hundred seasons as he was in two, his reputation as a great general would not be strong enough to make me say that he must have had a good reason that I am too dumb to recognize. Not when killing Euphemia is so obviously senseless.

You say that Lelouch sacrificed himself to avenge Euphemia's death. If so, he made a big mistake killing her for no good reason, since that murder eventually caused his own death which he could have avoided by not murdering her.


I quote.

"1) Life isn't fair. So people should try to be fair to compensate for it. And a lot of people are not fair, so the rest should try to be even fairer to compensate. And we should make heroes out of people who try to be fair, not those who do things which are obviously unfair. I am quite prepared to say that everyone of the one hundred thousand most famous people in history was evil, except for some of the ones who were children, if you want to try to convince me that the most revered heroes in history did bad things to good people but were not evil."


It is a fact. Life isn't fair. Why should everyone try to make up for the sins committed by others, when we ALL have oir own burdens to deal with? Why don't YOU do that...and try to compensate the murders, crimes that go on in the world? I'd like to see you try. Yes, in the REAL WORLD we DO actually make heroes of kind, good people. Hitler wasn't made a hero after being a mass murderer, was he? And you are completely missing the POINT here. Let me spell it out for you.

CODE GEASS IS AN ANIME.

THE POINT OF ANIME, OR WATCHING ANIME, IS TO BE ENGAGED IN A FATASY WORLD THAT DOES NOT PARALLEL REAL LIFE IN MOST WAYS. THEREFORE, THINGS THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN THE REAL WORLD, HAPPEN IN ANIMES LIKE CODE GEASS, THEREFORE THE TERM: [MECHA AND APOCALYPTIC MANGA].

AND BESIDES, LELOUCH IS AN ANTI-HERO. ALSO POSSIBLY A BYRONIC HERO. HE IS, ALSO, THE MAIN CHARACTER OF THE ENTIRE STORYLINE.

IT IS EXCEEDINGLY STUPID TO GET SO OBSESSED WITH AN ANIME, UNHEALTHY, TOO.


I will not go into your history rants again. Just letting you know that most of the heroes in history are GOOD. They don't have to have an enormous amount of military power, or otherwise. A few examples for you: Mother Teresa, Gandhi. All these people. They may not be your idea of heroes, but the simple fact is, they are.

As for the rest of it, I give up for the moment. Go debate with yourself. :closedeye

Heinekenrana
08-28-2009, 08:56 AM
This has nothing to do with Code Geass, but rather with a point proEuphie tried to make - you do realize, proEuphie, that Manson actually did not kill anyone, but orchestrated the murders his willing "Family" committed, and that he's still locked away (and most likely will be forever) because he was able to get seemingly normal people to do these terrible things for him? I don't think anyone really considers him a murderer or a danger now - save the fact that something about him compels people to do as he wishes. That might not be the best comparison to make here, if you're going that route.

Sorry to interrupt your topic, though.

proEuphie
08-28-2009, 08:31 PM
This has nothing to do with Code Geass, but rather with a point proEuphie tried to make - you do realize, proEuphie, that Manson actually did not kill anyone, but orchestrated the murders his willing "Family" committed, and that he's still locked away (and most likely will be forever) because he was able to get seemingly normal people to do these terrible things for him? I don't think anyone really considers him a murderer or a danger now - save the fact that something about him compels people to do as he wishes. That might not be the best comparison to make here, if you're going that route.

Sorry to interrupt your topic, though.

Saying that Charles Mansion never killed anyone is like saying that any of the great heroes and villains of military history never killed anyone.

It is like saying that George Washington or King George III, Napoleon or the Duke of Wellington, Abraham Lincoln or Jefferson Davis, Grant or Lee, Hitler, Stalin, Hirohito, Mussolini, Churchill, Roosevelt, Rommel or Eisenhauer, etc., etc. never killed anyone personally. That statement may be true or false for some of them, and for others unverifiable.

But it is kind of misleading since they each inspired many people to fight and die and kill many other people.

I think that a criminal mastermind who plans and orders murders will be considered a murderer by most people most of the time.

Anyway, Euphemia may have shot and killed a number of people while controlled by the geass, but there were tens, or hundreds, or thousands of Britannian soldiers at the Fuji Massacre who obeyed her orders to kill.
Some of the individual soldiers may have killed more people than Euphemia killed personally, but combined the soldiers killed tens, or hundreds, or thousands of times as many people as Euphemia killed personally.

So in that respect Charles mansion may have been a good comparison to Euphemia, although I selected him because of the long time he has been locked up while new generations of murderers grew up and killed outside his prison cell.

proEuphie
08-28-2009, 09:33 PM
I quote.

"1) Life isn't fair. So people should try to be fair to compensate for it. And a lot of people are not fair, so the rest should try to be even fairer to compensate. And we should make heroes out of people who try to be fair, not those who do things which are obviously unfair. I am quite prepared to say that everyone of the one hundred thousand most famous people in history was evil, except for some of the ones who were children, if you want to try to convince me that the most revered heroes in history did bad things to good people but were not evil."


It is a fact. Life isn't fair. Why should everyone try to make up for the sins committed by others, when we ALL have oir own burdens to deal with? Why don't YOU do that...and try to compensate the murders, crimes that go on in the world? I'd like to see you try. Yes, in the REAL WORLD we DO actually make heroes of kind, good people. Hitler wasn't made a hero after being a mass murderer, was he? And you are completely missing the POINT here. Let me spell it out for you.

CODE GEASS IS AN ANIME.

THE POINT OF ANIME, OR WATCHING ANIME, IS TO BE ENGAGED IN A FATASY WORLD THAT DOES NOT PARALLEL REAL LIFE IN MOST WAYS. THEREFORE, THINGS THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN THE REAL WORLD, HAPPEN IN ANIMES LIKE CODE GEASS, THEREFORE THE TERM: [MECHA AND APOCALYPTIC MANGA].

AND BESIDES, LELOUCH IS AN ANTI-HERO. ALSO POSSIBLY A BYRONIC HERO. HE IS, ALSO, THE MAIN CHARACTER OF THE ENTIRE STORYLINE.

IT IS EXCEEDINGLY STUPID TO GET SO OBSESSED WITH AN ANIME, UNHEALTHY, TOO.


I will not go into your history rants again. Just letting you know that most of the heroes in history are GOOD. They don't have to have an enormous amount of military power, or otherwise. A few examples for you: Mother Teresa, Gandhi. All these people. They may not be your idea of heroes, but the simple fact is, they are.

As for the rest of it, I give up for the moment. Go debate with yourself. :closedeye






Yes, code geass is an anime. But if no anime is worth discussing and debating the issues about, is any anime worth watching?

Code Geass may be a fantasy world but it has a lot things in it which happen in real life. Wars, rebellions, invasions, betrayals, massacres, murders, plotting, etc. etc. etc. I never suggested that it was evil to set a fictional story in an alternate universe, or that it was wrong to depict giant robots used as war machines, or it was shocking to depict geass. I do think that it is disturbing to have the protagonist of a series commit an obviously unnecessary murder and then order a massacre and have the audience still identify with him.

Why couldn't the audience identify with the good leaders and followers in the cast? Oops, there are no good leaders or followers left in the cast in the second season. Lelouch murdered Euphemia which turned Suzaku bitter and evil, thus eliminating both of the leaders and followers who were good people worth caring about.

I say that what is wrong in real life is wrong in an anime. Being an anti-hero or a Byronic hero does not excuse murdering someone when there is no need to, and it does not excuse ordering a massacre while not controlled by outside forces against your will. Doing either thing even once makes someone a villain to me. So to me Lelouch is a Byronic villain, not a Byronic hero

Do you expect me to excuse or accept murder committed by the main character of a story just because he is the main character of the story? You may have noticed how many different ways historic events are portrayed in different works of fiction so that the protagonists and/or heroes in one version are the antagonists and/or villains in other versions?

For example, in the movies General Custer is portrayed is the most heroic light in They died With Their Boots On, and in the most villainous way in Sitting Bull. The main Sioux leader at the Little Big Horn is obviously Sitting Bull in the movie Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse in the movie Chief Crazy Horse, while Gall is depicted as being very important in the movie Yellowstone Kelly, and the Cheyenne chief Dull Knife is the main leader in the movie Custer of the West.

Captain Benteen and/or Major Reno have been depicted in as brave soldiers abandoned by their ambitious commander in some works of fiction and nonfiction and as cowards and/or villains who refused to go to his aid in other works of fiction and nonfiction.

And an author can choose which of his characters is the main one and determine how good or evil the main character is. Unless the plot requires that every character is evil, there is no reason fro the main character to be one of the evil characters. There is no reason to excuse Euphemia's murder or the geass directorate massacre because they were committed by the main character. In fact, being committed by the main character makes them even less excusable.

I would be a lot more upset and angered if a protagonist like Inuyasha massacred an entire human village than if an antagonist and villain like Naraku did it, for example.

+Namiko+
08-28-2009, 10:28 PM
Woops my bad. proObsessed is a god and knows everything. Lets leave her to her happy little Geass life where she obvioulsy will spiral into depression when her next favorite anime character dies.
*shoots thread*
*burns the peices*
*sprinkes ashes on Euphie's grave*

There, now she can rest in peace knowing you made a mockery of her death*

proEuphie
08-29-2009, 06:04 PM
Woops my bad. proObsessed is a god and knows everything. Lets leave her to her happy little Geass life where she obvioulsy will spiral into depression when her next favorite anime character dies.
*shoots thread*
*burns the peices*
*sprinkes ashes on Euphie's grave*

There, now she can rest in peace knowing you made a mockery of her death*

No, all of you Code Geass fans who continue to care about Lelouch, identify with Lelouch, and support Lelouch, after he murdered her for no apparent reason, have made a mockery of her death.

What is the point in depicting Character A treacherously murdering character B -- who loves and trusts him and does not suspect he has hostile intentions, and who if captured and confined will be less dangerous to anyone than any random free person would be -- except to make the audience hate Character A?

Rei
08-29-2009, 11:45 PM
Woops my bad. proObsessed is a god and knows everything. Lets leave her to her happy little Geass life where she obvioulsy will spiral into depression when her next favorite anime character dies.
*shoots thread*
*burns the peices*
*sprinkes ashes on Euphie's grave*

There, now she can rest in peace knowing you made a mockery of her death*


Yes, let's.
We'll wait for Lelouch to kill her. Hopefully, blow her up with the Guren.
Well, we'll leave off here, then. I don't intend to continue any more.

*note to ProEuphie*: you can't expect people to be nice to you when you refuse to accept other's viewpoints, you know. It's like you've been living in this fantasy world of yours ever since you were born, that you don't know social norms, or the basic thing: Courtesy. Hope you'll remember this. Goodbye.

wolfgirl90
08-31-2009, 12:16 AM
Well, proEuphie, just like I do not need to be called a "sinner" during a debate about a cartoon character, as I get enough of that because of my religion, I do not need hypothetical suggestions of my death during a debate about a cartoon character, since, as you can imagine, military life is stressful enough.

Like I said before, I do not think a person should be killed because of their potential to kill someone; as you have already pointed out, because of my training, I do have the potential to kill a person (a fact that I am already well aware without you pointing it out to me and everyone else). However, again, Euphemia was not merely a person who had the potential to kill someone: she had ALREADY killed someone. In fact, she was killing LOTS of people and the ONLY time that she stopped was when Lelouch was talking to her (which was only a few seconds before her death). There is a big difference in killing me because of my potential to kill someone and killing Euphemia because she had already killed someone and was currently in the process of killing other people (other than the fact that comparing my real life to that of a cartoon character is rather stupid).

With my training, given the situation, I would most likely kill Euphemia, not wait for the chance that she might hopefully stop. Yes, non-lethal methods would be considered, but so long as Euphemia was firing bullets in every other direction...needless to say, I am not walking towards her to use words or my arms to stop her when my gun can do the same thing (its me or her).

HOWEVER, that is MY opinion (and mine alone; not to be used in some straw man argument about how bad a person I must be because I would hypothetically kill a fictional character). Bare in mind that Lelouch DID NOT shoot Euphemia so that she would stop shooting the Japanese NOR did he shoot her to end her suffering. He shot her because it was the best way to turn the situation to his side and gain the best results in doing so. Could he have captured her? Maybe (of course, I have already given the various disadvantages to capturing Euphemia versus killing her many times to you before). Did he? No. Effectively, there is no reason in discussing what Lelouch COULD HAVE done, as it doesn't matter (it doesn't move the debate and it doesn't prove your point).

Also, since we are talking about a cartoon, which is scripted and therefore has a VERY limited universe, we can only analyze the things that have been presented to us. Like I said before, if an action did not take place, that does not mean that that non-action is proof of anything. For example, Euphemia not running off to kill Japanese when she was with Lelouch does not prove that she broke the Geass (the script stated she would stay and listen to Lelouch). Euphemia not attacking Suzaku in the sickbay is not really proof that she broke the Geass, since the script specified that she would not do anything of the sort (we all know what actually happened to Euphemia in the sickbay). Sure these things can be discussed, but they can really only be introduced as possible plot holes, not as proof of anything that happened. What you are presenting is pure speculation, nothing more, so I can easily dismiss all of those "points" that you have made so far, since they prove nothing.


No, all of you Code Geass fans who continue to care about Lelouch, identify with Lelouch, and support Lelouch, after he murdered her for no apparent reason, have made a mockery of her death.

What is the point in depicting Character A treacherously murdering character B -- who loves and trusts him and does not suspect he has hostile intentions, and who if captured and confined will be less dangerous to anyone than any random free person would be -- except to make the audience hate Character A?

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that Character A (Lelouch, so that everyone is clear) did not kill Character B (Euphemia) out of malice (and actually wholeheartedly regretted killing Character B) and the fact that Character A later sacrificed himself for the sake of all the characters and to clear up the tarnished name of Character B. Because of this, it would be rather hard (not to mention immature and naive) to hate Character A for killing Character B, considering that he didn't want to kill Character B in the first place (but had to in order to get the best results out of the mess he made) and sacrificed himself for Character B and the other characters.

The big problem here is that, despite your claim that you want to have a debate about Euphemia's death, this thread is not a "debate". Right now, you are apparently the only person who is right since you are pretty much ignoring the facts and opinions of others. Honestly, while I am not trying to change your opinions about Euphemia (believe me, there would be no point in even trying), I have shown you lots of (very solid) proof about the Geass and about the series itself when it comes to Euphemia (which you can barely contest since you have not watched the entire series, and are thus at an automatic disadvantage when discussing ANYTHING about the series) and how she couldn't have possibly broken the Geass at ANY point in time, while you have only given me speculation in return as "proof" of your point (which does not work here, I'm afraid).

There is difference in starting a valid argument, someone proving that you are wrong, and politely coinciding to the point, versus starting an argument, someone proving that you are wrong, some other person proving that you are wrong, more people proving that you are wrong and not only do you NOT coincide to the point(s), you ignore ALL of the points and simply announce yourself as being right (or announce that the others must be wrong) based on nonsense.

Like I said before, it really seems that unless one admits that Euphemia broke the Geass, says that she is the best character in the series, says that they felt sad about her death (or says that her death was an extremely bad thing) or basically doesn't coincide to ANY point that you make (regardless of whether or not you are actually right), they are the ones who are wrong (and you are right), no matter what evidence they have to the contrary. Not to mention the fact you often commit the Straw Man fallacy when saying that these people are wrong.

I mean, ever since I first posted my points against yours, you have called me out (four times, each time saying that I am wrong but without refuting my point), have called me a sinner (twice directly, three times implied), said that I must have latent violent tendencies (due to my not caring about Euphemia's death and the fact that I am in the military), called my morals into question, suggested that, due to my weapons training, I have a higher chance of committing homicide (twice) and have even suggested that I be killed (twice), all during a conversation about the death of a CARTOON CHARACTER!!

You can have whatever opinions about Euphemia that you want, but I really do not care about her death (at least, not anymore). I barely cared about her to begin with since Euphemia is a combination of Lacus Clyne and Relena Peacecraft (two characters I have honestly had enough of) and while I did feel a tinge of sadness over her death, I quickly got over it (about 20 seconds after it happened). Once again, as you know, I am in the military, so forgive me if I do not feel sad over the death of a CARTOON CHARACTER when I can name about two people that I have worked with and trained with who are in Iraq right now, and whose lives are a lot more important than that of a cartoon character. So its no wonder I don't feel sad about Euphemia.

Also, like I have said many times before, while you continue to bring up Euphemia's death (and complain about it), she continues to live in other Code Geass universes such as Suzaku of the Counterattack and Tales of an Alternate Shogunate. I mean, that's like being upset over the "death" of Sherlock Holmes long after he was brought back. You can be upset over Euphemia's death all you want, but so long as she is alive in alternative universes of Code Geass, I really can't feel that bad about her death.

proEuphie
09-03-2009, 08:28 PM
Woops my bad. proObsessed is a god and knows everything. Lets leave her to her happy little Geass life where she obvioulsy will spiral into depression when her next favorite anime character dies.
*shoots thread*
*burns the peices*
*sprinkes ashes on Euphie's grave*

There, now she can rest in peace knowing you made a mockery of her death*

As I wrote elsewhere, Euphemia was not my favorite anime character. I just thought of her as a very nice and good minor character in one anime series out of many until I saw the way that Lelouch killed her.

The episode makes it very clear that Lelouch does not to have to kill her, Lelouch does not have to capture her, Lelouch does not have to let her go free to kill a few more Japanese and then get killed.

Lelouch has the power to choose what to do with the sweet, adorable, noble, and innocent girl who is trapped in the same body as a geass command.

Lelouch does not have to kill her by kicking her a hundred yards in the air with one of the Gawain's robot legs. He does not have to kill by shooting her with a machine gun. He does not have to kill her by her by blasting her with one of the Gawain's big cannons. He has many available ways to kill her.

Lelouch does not have to capture her by picking her up in the hand of the Gawain. Lelouch does not have to capture her by walking up to her, pointing behind her, and hitting her on the head with the butt of his gun when she looks around. Lelouch does not have to capture her by inviting her into his nightmare and having CC do the memory sharing thing with her and making her unconscious like she did to Suzaku at Narita. Lelouch has many available ways of capturing her.

If Euphemia was captured and confined with reasonable security she would have less chance of ever killing another Japanese person than any randomly selected free person in our world, such as you or I, would have.

Since capturing Euphemia would be just as good as killing her for protecting innocent lives, and since capturing Euphemia would be much better for her than killing her, and since Lelouch had many available ways to capture Euphemia, killing her was obviously a totally unnecessary murder.

Rei
09-03-2009, 09:10 PM
Someone just LOCK this friggin' thread. ==" I can't believe she's quoting from previous posts. AGAIN.

proEuphie
09-05-2009, 10:33 PM
Someone just LOCK this friggin' thread. ==" I can't believe she's quoting from previous posts. AGAIN.

I'm quoting from previous threads because someone was making inaccurate statements about what i said.

proEuphie
09-05-2009, 11:36 PM
Well, proEuphie, just like I do not need to be called a "sinner" during a debate about a cartoon character, as I get enough of that because of my religion, I do not need hypothetical suggestions of my death during a debate about a cartoon character, since, as you can imagine, military life is stressful enough.

Okay, okay. Remember the context. I keep saying that if Euphemia was captured and locked up the potential future danger (despite her past actions under the control of the geass) would be too small to make it right to kill her to prevent that small potential danger of future killings. And you kept writing that the potential danger that Euphemia might kill people despite being locked up was too great and she had to be killed.

So I pointed that that a free person, such as yourself, no matter how good, would have a much higher chance of killing someone than Euphemia (no matter how much she was controlled by the geass) would have if she was locked up with good security.

I hoped that since you obviously believe that there is absolutely no justification for killing you to prevent the slight possibility that you might kill someone in the future you might accept that there would be even less possibility that Euphemia might kill someone in the future if properly confined and thus there would be no justification for killing her to prevent that slight chance.


Like I said before, I do not think a person should be killed because of their potential to kill someone; as you have already pointed out, because of my training, I do have the potential to kill a person (a fact that I am already well aware without you pointing it out to me and everyone else).

You said that since Euphemia knew how to shoot a gun and drive a nightmare she would be dangerous if she got out and so she should be killed to prevent that slight chance. So naturally I responded that you also know how to use weapons and are a free person and therefore if you should ever get the desire to kill you would be more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined. Naturally if you make a point I will try to reverse your chain of logic and show that your line of reasoning can demand and justify something that you are opposed to.


However, again, Euphemia was not merely a person who had the potential to kill someone: she had ALREADY killed someone. In fact, she was killing LOTS of people and the ONLY time that she stopped was when Lelouch was talking to her (which was only a few seconds before her death). There is a big difference in killing me because of my potential to kill someone and killing Euphemia because she had already killed someone and was currently in the process of killing other people (other than the fact that comparing my real life to that of a cartoon character is rather stupid).

Technically Euphemia stopped killing people the last time a Britannian soldier obeying her orders killed a Japanese or else the last time that she personally shot and fatally wounded a Japanese. In episode 23 we see a bunch of fleeing Japanese, then Euphemia firing a cannon at them or some other off screen target. If Euphemia did not hit anybody when she fired that cannon the last time that she killed someone was an unknown time earlier. After firing the cannon and killing or not killing someone Euphemia did not fire a weapon except to harmlessly shoot a machine gun at an armored nightmare. Euphemia died in the sickbay an unknown number of minute or hours after Lelouch shot her so she stopped killing people much longer than only a few seconds before her death.

And I say that killing people in the past has nothing to do with calculating and comparing the potential danger which two different people might pose because of the different situations they were in. I was comparing Euphemia's potential danger of killing people in the future if she was confined with your potential danger of killing people if you are free. And even though you have no desire to murder and are not controlled by a geass command being free and able to kill if you should desire to makes your very, very slight potential danger greater than the very, very slight potential danger of a confined Euphemia.

When you claimed that Euphemia had to be killed because she would be controlled by the geass command for the rest of my life I disagreed but but also tried to show that she would not. And when I suggested that a bunch of captured Britannian soldiers from the Fuji Massacre be used up trying to cure Euphemia you convinced me that it was technically impractical. But you also claimed that it would have been evil to kill them just to cure Euphemia (which I only suggested because you insisted she would be too dangerous to live unless cured).

If it would be evil to kill Britannian soldiers who took part in a massacre merely because they were ordered to, and not because of a geass command, it would be even more evil to kill Euphemia for ordering that massacre due to a geass command. So there is no point in bringing up the fact that Euphemia had already killed a few people personally and had ordered her soldiers to kill many more. That could not justify killing her if it was not necessary to save lives in the future.


With my training, given the situation, I would most likely kill Euphemia, not wait for the chance that she might hopefully stop. Yes, non-lethal methods would be considered, but so long as Euphemia was firing bullets in every other direction...needless to say, I am not walking towards her to use words or my arms to stop her when my gun can do the same thing (its me or her).

I don't see how you could have been trained to kill someone instead of capturing them when it is just as safe, just as easy, and just as quick to capture as to kill.

When Euphemia's nightmare was destroyed she was unarmed (until Lelouch and co inexplicably let her pick up and keep a machine gun lying on the ground -- is that something you've been trained to do?) against two of the most powerful nightmares in the world.

Lelouch could simply reach down with a giant robot hand and pick up Euphemia and use her as a hostage to force the remaining Britannians to stop fighting and save an unknown number of Japanese lives.

And Lelouch did walk toward her, confident that she loved and trusted him so much she would not shoot him, If you were in Lelouch's situation, walking toward her, it would not be Euphemia or you. You would know she would never shoot you and you would have a good chance of talking her into putting down her gun and surrendering to you, her beloved brother. Which would have been the safest thing for Euphemia and the geass command's best hope to live and kill again.

And what would be so dangerous about using your gun to shoot her in one or two arms and legs? Wouldn't that make it very unlikely that she could shoot? Wouldn't that be just as fast as shooting her in the torso?

Euphemia was not firing in every other direction. She was seen to fire her cannon once, and thus in one direction. And she shoot her machine gun only at the Gawain and maybe the Gueren, and thus in one direction. And when she saw Zero she apologized to him for shooting harmlessly at his armored vehicle.

And Zero knew that Euphyemia was innocent and the massacre was an accident, as much his fault as hers.

And don't forget that Lleouch could have picked up Euphemia in perfect safety with the hand of his giant robot.

(to be continued)


HOWEVER, that is MY opinion (and mine alone; not to be used in some straw man argument about how bad a person I must be because I would hypothetically kill a fictional character). Bare in mind that Lelouch DID NOT shoot Euphemia so that she would stop shooting the Japanese NOR did he shoot her to end her suffering. He shot her because it was the best way to turn the situation to his side and gain the best results in doing so. Could he have captured her? Maybe (of course, I have already given the various disadvantages to capturing Euphemia versus killing her many times to you before). Did he? No. Effectively, there is no reason in discussing what Lelouch COULD HAVE done, as it doesn't matter (it doesn't move the debate and it doesn't prove your point).

Also, since we are talking about a cartoon, which is scripted and therefore has a VERY limited universe, we can only analyze the things that have been presented to us. Like I said before, if an action did not take place, that does not mean that that non-action is proof of anything. For example, Euphemia not running off to kill Japanese when she was with Lelouch does not prove that she broke the Geass (the script stated she would stay and listen to Lelouch). Euphemia not attacking Suzaku in the sickbay is not really proof that she broke the Geass, since the script specified that she would not do anything of the sort (we all know what actually happened to Euphemia in the sickbay). Sure these things can be discussed, but they can really only be introduced as possible plot holes, not as proof of anything that happened. What you are presenting is pure speculation, nothing more, so I can easily dismiss all of those "points" that you have made so far, since they prove nothing.



I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that Character A (Lelouch, so that everyone is clear) did not kill Character B (Euphemia) out of malice (and actually wholeheartedly regretted killing Character B) and the fact that Character A later sacrificed himself for the sake of all the characters and to clear up the tarnished name of Character B. Because of this, it would be rather hard (not to mention immature and naive) to hate Character A for killing Character B, considering that he didn't want to kill Character B in the first place (but had to in order to get the best results out of the mess he made) and sacrificed himself for Character B and the other characters.

The big problem here is that, despite your claim that you want to have a debate about Euphemia's death, this thread is not a "debate". Right now, you are apparently the only person who is right since you are pretty much ignoring the facts and opinions of others. Honestly, while I am not trying to change your opinions about Euphemia (believe me, there would be no point in even trying), I have shown you lots of (very solid) proof about the Geass and about the series itself when it comes to Euphemia (which you can barely contest since you have not watched the entire series, and are thus at an automatic disadvantage when discussing ANYTHING about the series) and how she couldn't have possibly broken the Geass at ANY point in time, while you have only given me speculation in return as "proof" of your point (which does not work here, I'm afraid).

There is difference in starting a valid argument, someone proving that you are wrong, and politely coinciding to the point, versus starting an argument, someone proving that you are wrong, some other person proving that you are wrong, more people proving that you are wrong and not only do you NOT coincide to the point(s), you ignore ALL of the points and simply announce yourself as being right (or announce that the others must be wrong) based on nonsense.

Like I said before, it really seems that unless one admits that Euphemia broke the Geass, says that she is the best character in the series, says that they felt sad about her death (or says that her death was an extremely bad thing) or basically doesn't coincide to ANY point that you make (regardless of whether or not you are actually right), they are the ones who are wrong (and you are right), no matter what evidence they have to the contrary. Not to mention the fact you often commit the Straw Man fallacy when saying that these people are wrong.

I mean, ever since I first posted my points against yours, you have called me out (four times, each time saying that I am wrong but without refuting my point), have called me a sinner (twice directly, three times implied), said that I must have latent violent tendencies (due to my not caring about Euphemia's death and the fact that I am in the military), called my morals into question, suggested that, due to my weapons training, I have a higher chance of committing homicide (twice) and have even suggested that I be killed (twice), all during a conversation about the death of a CARTOON CHARACTER!!

You can have whatever opinions about Euphemia that you want, but I really do not care about her death (at least, not anymore). I barely cared about her to begin with since Euphemia is a combination of Lacus Clyne and Relena Peacecraft (two characters I have honestly had enough of) and while I did feel a tinge of sadness over her death, I quickly got over it (about 20 seconds after it happened). Once again, as you know, I am in the military, so forgive me if I do not feel sad over the death of a CARTOON CHARACTER when I can name about two people that I have worked with and trained with who are in Iraq right now, and whose lives are a lot more important than that of a cartoon character. So its no wonder I don't feel sad about Euphemia.

Also, like I have said many times before, while you continue to bring up Euphemia's death (and complain about it), she continues to live in other Code Geass universes such as Suzaku of the Counterattack and Tales of an Alternate Shogunate. I mean, that's like being upset over the "death" of Sherlock Holmes long after he was brought back. You can be upset over Euphemia's death all you want, but so long as she is alive in alternative universes of Code Geass, I really can't feel that bad about her death.

blackrosetwilight
09-06-2009, 07:29 AM
uh......yeah I just felt like posting today and just to bump it up since everyone is so serious about this thread LOL so.......HADOUKEN!!!!!!! gtg play some street fighter 4 instead of trying to disprove of what has already been disproved so many time before or "reprove" anything LOL never though I would ever used that word.

Neo-Eva
09-06-2009, 02:07 PM
Uhm yeah lots of long posts in this thread...its seems very simple to me.

There are only 3 things that can end a geass: willpower (which Euphemia didn't have much of anyway since she killed many japs before being killed herself) Immortality (remember when Lelouch made that first attempt on his father?), and death.

Euphemia was severely conflicted while she was obeying the Geass but did nothing to contradict it, She obeyed til' death. The answer is NO there is nothing to indicate Euphemia even stood a chance. What would make Euphie any different from all the others Lelouch used Geass on? Nunally is the only exception.

proEuphie
09-06-2009, 10:34 PM
Uhm yeah lots of long posts in this thread...its seems very simple to me.

There are only 3 things that can end a geass: willpower (which Euphemia didn't have much of anyway since she killed many japs before being killed herself) Immortality (remember when Lelouch made that first attempt on his father?), and death.

Euphemia was severely conflicted while she was obeying the Geass but did nothing to contradict it, She obeyed til' death. The answer is NO there is nothing to indicate Euphemia even stood a chance. What would make Euphie any different from all the others Lelouch used Geass on? Nunally is the only exception.

Let me remind you of the curious incident of the orders to kill Suzaku and destroy the nearest Japanese Ghetto that were not given. The fact that they were not given requires explanation.

Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): "Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."
Holmes: "That was the curious incident."


From "Silver Blaze".

1) Euphemia and Nunnally both resisted geass commands at first. They have at least that much in common in their relationship with geass.

I say that Euphemia resisted her geass command a fourth way, with won't power. Not will power, an intense desire to do what she wanted but won't power, an intense resistance to doing anything she considered evil. When the geass first tried to take control of her she said that she couldn't kill.

Nunnally may have resisted her geass command and broken her blindness geass using will power, and may have had a lot more of it than Euphemia. But Euphemia resisted her geass command using her won't power, her refusal to kill, and she had a lot more of it than Nunnally who used F.R.E.I.J.A. weapons and killed many people. It is perfectly possible that Euphemia's won't power was at last as strong as Nunnally's willpower, and enabled her to defeat her geass command after mere hours or minutes instead of the years it took Nunnally.

2) Euphemia and Nunnally were half sisters but none of their relatives showed resistance to being geassed except for those who became geass givers, so it was not hereditary in their father's family. I suspect that their mothers were sisters or first cousins or second cousins. I think that some members of Britannian nobility had partially nonhuman ancestry, being descended from one or more species of supernatural or extraterrestrial beings. Emperor Charles may have had a really big share of that exotic ancestry and Euphemia and Nunnaly's mothers may have had really big shares of that ancestry too. By chance Euphemia and Nunnally could have inherited much more of those exotic genes than their full siblings Lelouch and Cornelia.

3) And remember that Euphemia had the power to talk coherently while she was dying in the sickbay. The soldiers who obeyed her commands probably killed tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of times as many Japanese as she personally shot. So the geass command would think of her ability to talk and give commands as her most deadly weapon and main weapon.

The geass command tried to regain control of her and she resisted. Then the geass command stopped trying to take control of her. The common idea that the geass command gave up because she was too weak to physically kill someone is invalidated by the fact that her main weapon was giving commands to other people and she could still talk.

If the geass command took control of Euphemia in the sickbay, she would order Suzaku executed. Therefore the writers could not allow the geass command to regain control of Euphemia. But the geass command knew that Euphemia could still talk and give orders and thus kill more thousands of Japanese. Thus the geass command had to keep trying to take control of Euphemia until it succeeded, or Euphemia died, or it was defeated.

Suzaku survived because the geass command did not succeed in taking control of Euphemia. And the geass command did not keep on trying to regain control of Euphemia until she died. Therefore the geass command must have been defeated by Euphemia in the sickbay. There would not have been a second season without a Suzaku who survived because Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay.

4) You say that Euphemia continued to obey the geass command until she died. Euphemia did not obey the geass command in the sickbay and order Suzaku killed. And she probably stopped obeying the geass command before Lelouch shot her.

The last thing Euphemia did to obey the command was to shoot her machine gun at the armored nightmares of Lelouch and Kallen. When Lelouch walked toward her she apologized for that. That was the last time she seemed aware of her geass command.

Then she asked Zero to help her administer the SAZ, and then said that was not right, seeming to dimly remember than something had changed but not remembering clearly.

Then she just stood around doing nothing to find more victims or ask Zero what he intended. The geass command knew that it had ordered a massacre of the Japanese people that Zero led, it knew that Euphemia's nightmare had just been destroyed (and possibly it knew that Zero's nightmare had done it) and it could see two Black Knight nightmares towering over Euphemia and Zero walking toward her. So if the geass command controlled Euphemia it should have made her do something about the situation. But Euphemia said and did nothing and did not seem to be resisting any command either. She just seemed to be trying to figure out what was going on and where she was.

5) If Euphemia's subconscious resistance did not defeat her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch after hours or minutes of outward obedience and inner struggle, it was amazing good luck for Suazaku that it managed to find a way to defeat the geass command within seconds in the sickbay. If the geass command had managed to regain control for just a few seconds Euphemia would have ordered Suzaku executed.

But if Euphemia's subconscious mind defeated her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch right before he shot her, then it would have simply remembered how to defeat the command and used that method instantly when the geass command tried to regain control of her in the sickbay. Suzaku's survival is much less incredible if Euphemia defeated her geass command before being shot.

Suzaku lives during the second season, therefore Euphemia defeated her geass command before Lelouch shot her.

Neo-Eva
09-07-2009, 02:00 AM
Suzaku would never have been killed as long as he had the 'live' geass in effect, remember? That geass got him out of at least one situation far worse than the one you're thinking about. The writers didn't see the point in Euphemia attempting to kill someone who can't be killed in the first place.

Also, Euphemia was dying when she was talking to Suzaku correct? Its quite possible that she didn't order Suzaku killed (irrelevant because of his 'live' geass) because she wasn't in physical or mental condition to give that order in the first place. Geass is akin to mind control, it cant make you do something you cant do. Euphemia on her death bed in would not be mentally composed enough to give out an order to kill and plus she would have had to raise her voice a little bit to give the command to right? Tough to do when you are dying, sure she could talk but that doesn't mean she broke the Geass at all, the geass ceased to function as its conditions could no longer be met. Also you're forgetting it Nunally years to break that Geass because she never had a strong enough stimulus up until that point to want to break it bad enough and the Emperor's Geass was much stronger than his son's (Lelouch's Geass increased in power as the show went on). I doubt you could give an order to kill the one love WHILE you're shot, bleeding out, and dying with mere seconds to live. WAY too much to ask of a Geass.

* Commands must be issued verbally.
* Eye contact, either direct or via a reflective surface, is required for commands to be issued. The maximum effective distance is 270 meters.
* Commands may be issued only once to any given individual, but any number of commands may be issued at initial application so long as eye contact is unbroken. In addition, the commands apparently never wear off so long as the conditions still apply. Since Jeremiah's Geass Canceler negates all Geass effects, those exposed to it may be commanded once again.
* Commands are limited to what the victim is physical and mentally capable of, though they will try to carry out the command to the best of their ability. For example, a victim will not be able to correctly answer a question they don't know the answer to, but will direct the user to someone who can if they are able. The victim can also be commanded to forget things even though this is not normally biologically possible.
* The victim's memories for the duration of command issue and execution are sealed and cannot be recalled, thus anyone affected by the power will not be able to remember anything they did while carrying out the command or who ordered them to do it.
* Though a victim may resist a command at first, they will eventually submit.
SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelouch_Lamperouge

Kamen Rider V3 Blue
09-07-2009, 02:06 PM
ProEuphie here's some advice if the Code Geass anime/Euphie's death bothers you that much then don't Watch it find another anime to watch and stop obsessing over it it aint healthy or read the manga where she's still alive
(I'll even give some personal examples:I'm a bit of a Go Nagai fan and read the last chapter of the Devilman Manga/Watched the Amon OVA and a bit of the live action film and the ending depressed me*It's a VERY tragic ending* So I stopped thinking about it and watched/read other less depressing anime/manga,I hated Evangelion's ending*but remain an Eva fan* so I read the AU manga and watch the rebuild films instead of the core series hopeing for a different*happier* ending and I hated Zeta Gundam's ending so I watch the fim version instead)

blackrosetwilight
09-07-2009, 08:15 PM
ProEuphie here's some advice if the Code Geass anime/Euphie's death bothers you that much then don't Watch it find another anime to watch and stop obsessing over it it aint healthy or read the manga where she's still alive
(I'll even give some personal examples:I'm a bit of a Go Nagai fan and read the last chapter of the Devilman Manga/Watched the Amon OVA and a bit of the live action film and the ending depressed me*It's a VERY tragic ending* So I stopped thinking about it and watched/read other less depressing anime/manga,I hated Evangelion's ending*but remain an Eva fan* so I read the AU manga and watch the rebuild films instead of the core series hopeing for a different*happier* ending and I hated Zeta Gundam's ending so I watch the fim version instead)
Well if proEuphy doesnt take your advice, is ok if I take it Im sure she wouldnt mind. I also hated evangalion and zeta gundams ending

proEuphie
09-07-2009, 08:23 PM
Suzaku would never have been killed as long as he had the 'live' geass in effect, remember? That geass got him out of at least one situation far worse than the one you're thinking about. The writers didn't see the point in Euphemia attempting to kill someone who can't be killed in the first place.

Let me quote from your own quotation of geass rules: Commands are limited to what the victim is physical and mentally capable of, though they will try to carry out the command to the best of their ability.

Suzaku could be killed after getting the geass command to survive. The geass command only made him try to survive. It didn't magically give him the ability to come back to life after being killed, like a geass giver. Lelouch commanded Shirley to survive but she couldn't.

Furthermore, you opened a big can of worms by mentioning Suzaku's geass command, since he didn't even try, for more than a day or two, to the best of his ability, to survive. Suzaku was sufficiently cowardly when he was first given the command, but hours later he fought Kallen instead of running away when she tried to kill him. Then when Euphemia ordered him to attack Kallen he escaped from Kallen and then moved between Zero and his gun and Euphemia, as if to shield Euphie with his body. Minutes later when Kallen sat on the Gawain and shot a machine gun at Suzaku and Euphemia Suzaku did not try to shield Euphie nor did he cower behind her for protection.

A day or two later Lelouch saw Suzaku fighting bravely to defeat the Chinese. And Suzaku was never cowardly or timid for the rest of the first season.

If the first season lasted for thirty days to one year, and the girl who was commanded to carve a cross on the wall spent between one and ten minutes doing so under the control of the geass each day, then the total time she was controlled by the geass would be 30 to 3652.5 minutes, or 0.5 to 60.875 hours, or 0.02 to 2.536 days.

It certainly seems like in the first season a geass command with no specified duration would control someone for a few hours or days and then fade away as Suzaku's did. Thus Lelouch and the audience should have expected that Euphemia's geass command with no specified duration would fade away in a few hours or days.

In the second season the producers tried to rewrite the rules by mentioning geasses, though not geass commands from Lelouch, which lasted for several years, such as the eight years of Nunnally's blindness geass; by having the girl continue to carve crosses on the wall; and by having Suzaku sometimes affected by his geass command to survive, although sometimes he did risk his life bravely. The operation of his geass command was erratic, to say the least.

So if Suzaku's geass command continued to be the proper model for Euphemia's geass command in the second season the audience should have expected that if Euphemia had survived her geass command would have quickly worn off and then reactivated from time to time. If she had to be locked up for the rest of her life as a precaution she would have been normal for most of the time and Suzaku could have lived with her safely most of the time and they could have raised a family (with precautions, of course) or possibly adopted children who did not look even partly Japanese, and she could have been happy most of the time. A far cry from some fans's dire predictions of what her fate would have been if she survived, but based on the closest analogy.

I say that Suzaku's geass command didn't magically make it impossible to kill him, it just made him try to survive in one situation and a few other times during the next year. He survived until the end of the series mostly through luck and his skill as a fighter and just a little bit because his geass command sometimes make him act safely and not at all because it made him impossible to kill. There must be countless millions of alternate universes in which Suzaku was killed despite his geass command to survive.


Also, Euphemia was dying when she was talking to Suzaku correct? Its quite possible that she didn't order Suzaku killed (irrelevant because of his 'live' geass) because she wasn't in physical or mental condition to give that order in the first place. Geass is akin to mind control, it cant make you do something you cant do. Euphemia on her death bed in would not be mentally composed enough to give out an order to kill and plus she would have had to raise her voice a little bit to give the command to right? Tough to do when you are dying, sure she could talk but that doesn't mean she broke the Geass at all, the geass ceased to function as its conditions could no longer be met. Also you're forgetting it Nunally years to break that Geass because she never had a strong enough stimulus up until that point to want to break it bad enough and the Emperor's Geass was much stronger than his son's (Lelouch's Geass increased in power as the show went on). I doubt you could give an order to kill the one love WHILE you're shot, bleeding out, and dying with mere seconds to live. WAY too much to ask of a Geass.

* Commands must be issued verbally.
* Eye contact, either direct or via a reflective surface, is required for commands to be issued. The maximum effective distance is 270 meters.
* Commands may be issued only once to any given individual, but any number of commands may be issued at initial application so long as eye contact is unbroken. In addition, the commands apparently never wear off so long as the conditions still apply. Since Jeremiah's Geass Canceler negates all Geass effects, those exposed to it may be commanded once again.
* Commands are limited to what the victim is physical and mentally capable of, though they will try to carry out the command to the best of their ability. For example, a victim will not be able to correctly answer a question they don't know the answer to, but will direct the user to someone who can if they are able. The victim can also be commanded to forget things even though this is not normally biologically possible.
* The victim's memories for the duration of command issue and execution are sealed and cannot be recalled, thus anyone affected by the power will not be able to remember anything they did while carrying out the command or who ordered them to do it.
* Though a victim may resist a command at first, they will eventually submit.
SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelouch_Lamperouge

Yes it took Nunnally years to break her geass command, years in which it gradually wore out and ran out of energy and/or was attacked and worn down by Nunnally's subconscious mind which wanted her to see again. So if Euphemia did it thousands of times faster than Nunnally that merely means that Euphemia was even more superhuman than Nunnally.

And was Euphie mere seconds away from death when the geass command tried and failed to regain control, or did she live for several minutes more?

Let me remind you of this famous quote from "Silver Blaze":

Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): "Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."
Holmes: "That was the curious incident."

The curious incident of the orders to kill Suzaku and destroy the nearest Japanese ghetto that were not given demands explanation, and Euphemia defeating her geass command is the most logical explanation.

How can you say Euphie wasn't in mental or physical condition to order Suzaku killed?

She could talk. And well.

She didn't say gibberish like: "eos ind didns so sson ykxis spsn."

She didn't use real worlds in grammatically incorrect sentences like: "Red to used cattlemen jumping was was eat."

She didn't speak grammatically correct sentences which had no meaning in the situation like: "Suzaku, please promise me that you will never eat left-handed Muslim Englishmen again."

No, she talked clearly about what mattered to her.

Why would the geass command let her waste her ability to talk coherently on her selfish personal matters instead of doing her duty to obey and kill? If the geass command could take control of her it could make her give the order to kill. So what stopped the geass command from making her kill?

proEuphie
09-07-2009, 10:20 PM
ProEuphie here's some advice if the Code Geass anime/Euphie's death bothers you that much then don't Watch it find another anime to watch and stop obsessing over it it aint healthy or read the manga where she's still alive
(I'll even give some personal examples:I'm a bit of a Go Nagai fan and read the last chapter of the Devilman Manga/Watched the Amon OVA and a bit of the live action film and the ending depressed me*It's a VERY tragic ending* So I stopped thinking about it and watched/read other less depressing anime/manga,I hated Evangelion's ending*but remain an Eva fan* so I read the AU manga and watch the rebuild films instead of the core series hopeing for a different*happier* ending and I hated Zeta Gundam's ending so I watch the fim version instead)

So you want me to watch some other anime? You have no idea of the wide variety of things that I watch and read -- some of those who have argued with me could tell you.

I can't just switch off obsessing about it like a light bulb. The last time I was very outraged by a television plot line I couldn't think of anything else for six months. It's been almost a year now since I saw episode 23 and and it looks like it is going to take me years more to get over it.

proEuphie
09-07-2009, 10:25 PM
First: I loved your post <3



I'll add the teacher from R1 who told Lelouch what was going to appear in the test. Teachers from R2 who went blind eye to Lelouch and Rolo's behavior. And that girl that was ordered to carv the wall. She acted normal, until she was sent to Britannia and was unable to keep carving the wall at Ashford.



I don't think that the geass command turned off, the scene gave me the idea that Euphemia's logical process wasn't working anymore because she was getting weaker and dying. The order was there, but she wasn't able to connect the dots anymore. I don't know how to describe it, it's a weird feeling, like feeling light headed and then passing out.

If you think Euphie couldn't think straight in the sickbay, see posts # 165, 166, 167, and 170

TrueTears
09-08-2009, 08:14 AM
Didn't euphie try to resist the geass at first? But then it took control of her?

Kamen Rider V3 Blue
09-08-2009, 02:16 PM
Well if proEuphy doesnt take your advice, is ok if I take it Im sure she wouldnt mind. I also hated evangalion and zeta gundams endingI'm glad to be of help.:laugh: and ProEuphie I never said it'd be an overnight thing(It took me months to get over Devilman's and Evangelion's endings*plus being a Shinji/Rei shipper and Asuka hater didn't help :laugh:)

Neo-Eva
09-08-2009, 10:17 PM
Hmm we agree to disagree pro-euphie but take some time to explore other anime like "Eden of the East" sure Code Geass certainly stunned me for a little bit but you can't just simply focus on that when there are so many great stories and characters to explore! Ever seen Serial Experiment Lain? I think its the most thought provoking anime I've ever seen in 11 years of watching anime.

"Bloodstained Euphemia" was one the all time most shocking anime episodes I've ever seen, I think I may have cried when I saw that, not sure (very very rare for me).

I'm just saying there other awesome characters out there you could be missing out on by focusing so much on Euphemia.

wolfgirl90
09-09-2009, 12:24 AM
Okay, okay. Remember the context. I keep saying that if Euphemia was captured and locked up the potential future danger (despite her past actions under the control of the geass) would be too small to make it right to kill her to prevent that small potential danger of future killings. And you kept writing that the potential danger that Euphemia might kill people despite being locked up was too great and she had to be killed.

So I pointed that that a free person, such as yourself, no matter how good, would have a much higher chance of killing someone than Euphemia (no matter how much she was controlled by the geass) would have if she was locked up with good security.

I hoped that since you obviously believe that there is absolutely no justification for killing you to prevent the slight possibility that you might kill someone in the future you might accept that there would be even less possibility that Euphemia might kill someone in the future if properly confined and thus there would be no justification for killing her to prevent that slight chance.

Okay, but remember THIS context: I am NOT talking about killing someone with the POTENTIAL to kill people. I am talking about killing someone who has ALREADY killed (and still is actively killing) people, namely Euphemia. I could care less about whether or not she could kill someone while locked away in a maximum security prison so long as she in the active process of KILLING PEOPLE!! Like I said, with my training, I would most likely kill Euphemia to stop her from killing people, NOT because she had the potential to do so, and certainly not to capture her and say "Well, at least SHE is alive", disregarding all the people that she has killed. By the way, if she was tried, she would probably be given the death penalty or spending the rest of her days in a prison cell where Goddess only know what will happen to her ("But at at least SHE is alive.").:rolleyes:

But again, that is my honest opinion (like I have been saying, I don't care what your opinion of Euphemia is and I can have whatever opinion I what about her), which you can argue about until your fingers fall off from typing and I still won't change my mind. You can try but it won't work.


You said that since Euphemia knew how to shoot a gun and drive a nightmare she would be dangerous if she got out and so she should be killed to prevent that slight chance. So naturally I responded that you also know how to use weapons and are a free person and therefore if you should ever get the desire to kill you would be more dangerous than Euphemia would be if confined. Naturally if you make a point I will try to reverse your chain of logic and show that your line of reasoning can demand and justify something that you are opposed to.

Granted I am using my knowledge and experience to make an opinion about the situation that Euphemia was in. Again, I am not debunking your opinion that a person shouldn't be killed based on their potential to kill someone. However, that opinion is irrelevant since Euphemia does not fall under the category of someone who could potential kill; she is a person who has ALREADY killed.

By the way, I would have also hoped that, considering the last time you brought up my weapons training that you would realize that I resent the fact that that alone makes me a threat (of ANY sort at ANY level; there have been people who have killed others that had zero knowledge in guns beyond "pull the trigger") or comparing my actions to that of a cartoon character, who neither of us knew about until about 2 years ago.


When you claimed that Euphemia had to be killed because she would be controlled by the geass command for the rest of my life I disagreed but but also tried to show that she would not.

No I did not. I said that she (POTENTIALLY) had to killed because she was killing people and there was no real way to stop her beyond trying to capture her, which I wasn't going to do because I am not about to get shot to save a psycho killer whose in the process of killing. Of course, while WE know that Euphemia is innocent, the other characters did not know this at the time, so again, there is no real point in bringing that up.


I don't see how you could have been trained to kill someone instead of capturing them when it is just as safe, just as easy, and just as quick to capture as to kill.

And what would be so dangerous about using your gun to shoot her in one or two arms and legs? Wouldn't that make it very unlikely that she could shoot? Wouldn't that be just as fast as shooting her in the torso?

I HAVE been trained to capture. However, Euphemia was shooting bullets in every other direction trying to kill every Japanese she saw (and succeeding for the most part). Because of this, walking up to her to disarm her is out of the freaking question and I am certainly going to wait for her to HOPEFULLY stop shooting so that I can HOPEFULLY capture her. Again, with that situation, its my life and those of the people being attacked versus her life. At that point, I am not thinking about capturing the attacker; I am thinking about STOPPING them and IF it means killing them...well, I have been trained for that to (and again, this is a hypothetical situation about a character that doesn't exist beyond the realms of a book or television). I could shot her in the arms in legs to stop her but again, in a heated situation like that, I am not thinking about how to save HER life; I am going to thinking about how to save the lives of the people she is shooting at. Whether or not I actually end up killing her...well, maybe she will live and maybe she won't.


Euphemia was not firing in every other direction. She was seen to fire her cannon once, and thus in one direction. And she shoot her machine gun only at the Gawain and maybe the Gueren, and thus in one direction. And when she saw Zero she apologized to him for shooting harmlessly at his armored vehicle.

Does THIS look like only one freaking direction to you?!?!:banghead::banghead::banghead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzIKUDEOxlo
THAT is what I am talking about. I am not walking anyway NEAR that just so that I can save HER life. I fact, that is going to be the farthest thing from my mind. Forget HER life; I am going to be thinking about the lives of the people that she is SHOOTING AT!!:rolleyes:

HOWEVER, since this is my opinion about a hypothetical situation, you can argue with me if you want to but I think I have made my stance quite clear and since my opinion is based on training, I am not bound to change it.

blackrosetwilight
09-09-2009, 04:38 PM
Hey proEuphy have you seen gundam 00 yet if not than go watch it maybe it would slightly ease your pain and dont worry no one dies it's gundam after all

proEuphie
09-09-2009, 09:45 PM
Didn't euphie try to resist the geass at first? But then it took control of her?


Yes. And then, in my not so humble opinion, she defeated her geass command right before Lelouch shot her, and again when it tried to regin control of her in the sickbay of the Avalon. That is what this thread is arguing about.

proEuphie
09-09-2009, 10:09 PM
With my training, given the situation, I would most likely kill Euphemia, not wait for the chance that she might hopefully stop. Yes, non-lethal methods would be considered, but so long as Euphemia was firing bullets in every other direction...needless to say, I am not walking towards her to use words or my arms to stop her when my gun can do the same thing (its me or her).

HOWEVER, that is MY opinion (and mine alone; not to be used in some straw man argument about how bad a person I must be because I would hypothetically kill a fictional character). Bare in mind that Lelouch DID NOT shoot Euphemia so that she would stop shooting the Japanese NOR did he shoot her to end her suffering. He shot her because it was the best way to turn the situation to his side and gain the best results in doing so. Could he have captured her? Maybe (of course, I have already given the various disadvantages to capturing Euphemia versus killing her many times to you before). Did he? No. Effectively, there is no reason in discussing what Lelouch COULD HAVE done, as it doesn't matter (it doesn't move the debate and it doesn't prove your point).

So you say that killing Euphemia was the best way for Lelouch to try to turn the situation to his advantage.

Killing someone you don't need to kill to save lives, merely to gain a hypothetical political or military advantage is murder. Most of the historical characters who are considered villains are hated because they did it.

Why would a good person want to turn a disaster to his personal, political, or military advantage? A good person would want to stop the disaster and save as many lives as possible, and then, once the disaster was over, start thinking and planning again about how to achieve his goals.

I say that Euphemia was much more valuable to Lelouch alive than dead.

You keep saying that because Emperor Charles doe not love his children Lelouch could not use her as a hostage. Emperor Charles was not in Japan and he was not in his office at Pendragon ready to answer a phone call from Tokyo. Instead he was up in the clouds somewhere observing everything which went on and unable to quickly give orders.

In the next episode Prince Oddysseuss was seen dealing with the situation in Pendragon because the Emperor was still absent. So the question becomes how much do Suzaku, Cornelia, and Oddysseuss love Euphie, not how much Charles Loves her.

You saw that Euphemia was still killing a lot of Japanese when Lelouch shot her. If so, most of that killing was being done by Britannian soldiers obeying her orders to kill. Capturing her alive would seem to offer a chance of using her as a hostage with the Britannians soldiers at Fuji to stop the massacre a lot faster than defeating all the little scattered groups of soldiers one by one. And thus it might save a lot of Japanese lives. But Lelouch ordered his men to "kill her" (I hope none of the Black Knights happened to be brooding about a bitter quarrel with his girlfriend when he heard and misinterpreted that order) and didn't bother to say anything about capturing her alive to use as a hostage if possible.

And of course it might have been possible to use Euphemia as a hostage to get Suzaku to switch sides or become a prisoner of the Black Knights in order to save Euphemia.

And Lelouch might have been able to use Euphemia to force some military or political concession out of Cornelia.

For example, he might force her to agree to march her army to meet his at a specified time and place. Lelouch could tell his followers that if a few of them were stationed at points A, B, And C on the map they could trap Cornelia's army. And Cornelia would tell her men that Zero was planning to put men at points A, B, And C to trap them but she would foil him by sending some of her men to points D and E to trap the rebels. And Zero would privately tell his commanders that Cornelia would no doubt plan to trap them by sending men to points D and E but they could trap them and the rest of Cornelia's army with units at points F and G!

Or he could have alternately proclaimed that he was going to torture Euphemia to death and promised to release her under certain ever-changing conditions, and kept Cornelia too worried about that to notice any reports which might possibly reach her about the (hopefully secret and unnoticed by the Britannians) secret moves the rebels were making to trap and defeat her.

I say that there are no imaginable benefits to killing Euphemia which could outweigh the advantages of using her as a hostage.

And later Lelouch privately gloated to CC that the Emperor would have to meet Zero once the rebels proclaimed an independent Japan in the Government Center in the Tokyo Settlement. Which is like saying king George III would have had to come to the United States as soon as he heard about the Declaration of independence. So Lelouch privately told his only confidant that he had no plan prepared to defend against the weeks and months and years of attacks from Brittannia which would have occurred instead of the visit from Emperor Charles.

Lelouch desperately needed to keep as many Britannians as possible alive, especially Cornelia and above all Euphemia, to trick the Emperor into thinking it was safe to come to Japan. Lelouch could not expect that anyone who knew Euphemia even slightly, like her father did, would believe the massacre story. Instead they would believe that the Japanese had made up the story and faked the videos to justify the murder of an innocent girl. It would have been incredibly suicidal for the Emperor to go to Japan if Euphemia was alive, since he was hated much more than she was, and thousands of times less likely for him to go there if she was dead.

So Lelouch killed his plan by killing Euphemia. Lelouch must have been irrational with anger ever since the announcement of the SAZ plan; that seems like the only explanation for killing Euphemia.

If Lelouch picked up Euphemia in the hand of his nightmare he could have carried her around until he entered the G1 for the trip to Tokyo. Euphemia could have been sedated, tied up, put in a closet or locker and locked in it inside some compartment of the G1 which could be locked. That would keep her from killing for a while.

After Tokyo was captured a bunch of Japanese political prisoners would eventually be released from Britannian prisons, freeing up a lot of cells. Euphemia could have been locked up in a maximum security cell for days or weeks until she was either sent back to Britannia under an agreement that she would be strictly confined until VV undid her gesas command, or else confined somewhere in Japan.

That does not seem like a lot of trouble, so I don't know why you act like there would be a lot of disadvantages keeping her alive, especially since i have pointed out before that keeping her alive was absolutely necessary for the success of Lelouch's plan.

You say that there is no point in discussing what Lelouch might have done or could have done. You say it doesn't prove my point. It is correct that Lelouch's alternatives do not prove anything about whether or not Euphemia defeated her geass command before Lelouch shot her, but this thread is just part of my effort to prove that killing Euphemia was a totally unjustified and senseless murder. And Lelouch's alternatives to killing her certainly matter a lot in showing that killing her was an evil, unjustified, and unnecessary murder.

Discussing what Lelouch could have done does matter.


Also, since we are talking about a cartoon, which is scripted and therefore has a VERY limited universe, we can only analyze the things that have been presented to us. Like I said before, if an action did not take place, that does not mean that that non-action is proof of anything. For example, Euphemia not running off to kill Japanese when she was with Lelouch does not prove that she broke the Geass (the script stated she would stay and listen to Lelouch). Euphemia not attacking Suzaku in the sickbay is not really proof that she broke the Geass, since the script specified that she would not do anything of the sort (we all know what actually happened to Euphemia in the sickbay). Sure these things can be discussed, but they can really only be introduced as possible plot holes, not as proof of anything that happened. What you are presenting is pure speculation, nothing more, so I can easily dismiss all of those "points" that you have made so far, since they prove nothing.



[quote=wolfgirl90;2322497]I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that Character A (Lelouch, so that everyone is clear) did not kill Character B (Euphemia) out of malice (and actually wholeheartedly regretted killing Character B) and the fact that Character A later sacrificed himself for the sake of all the characters and to clear up the tarnished name of Character B. Because of this, it would be rather hard (not to mention immature and naive) to hate Character A for killing Character B, considering that he didn't want to kill Character B in the first place (but had to in order to get the best results out of the mess he made) and sacrificed himself for Character B and the other characters.

What do you mean that Lelouch did not not kill Euphemia out of malice? I keep pointing out that Lelouch could have captured her in perfect safety simply by picking her up in the hand of his giant robot as soon as she crawled out from the wreckage of her nightmare. Any mecha pilot who kills instead of capturing an unarmed person who is standing right at the feet of his mecha has a lot of explaining to do if he claims he didn't kill that person out of malice. I don't see why you are making that claim for Lelouch.

And don't say that Euphemia was already armed when Lelouch shot her. Lelouch let her pick up and keep a machine gun and then walked up to her in safety to shoot her after the earliest moment when he could have captured her in perfect safety.

And why do you bring up Lelouch's regret for killing Euphemia. I keep pointing out that almost everyone who kills feels some regret and Lelouch didn't seem to feel a lot of regret. Certainly no more that many people who have committed evil murders have felt.

I don't see what later sacrificing himself has to do with the degree of Lelouch's guilt for killing Euphemia. I don't see how killing Euphemia when it was perfectly possible to capture her alive just as fast, as easy, and as safely could possibly have caused him to achieve the Zero Requiem. And clearing her name would not have been necessary if Lelouch had told the partial truth about her in episodes 22 and 23, something like "Capture Euphemia, don't kill her. She has gone crazy or been possessed or brainwashed or something and should not be harmed but don't worry there are plenty of evil and sane Britannian soldiers who obeyed her crazy orders that it is right for us to kill!".

Maybe if Lelouch didn't commit any crimes he wouldn't have to feel any regret for them.

If Lelouch didn''t want to kill Euphie, why did he kill her, when it would have been so easy to capture her alive?
And how did Lelouch make the best out of the situation by killing Euphemia instead of using her as a hostage to make the Britannians stop the Fuji Massacre? And how did he make the best out of the situation by killing her, since the Black Rebellion was crushed anyway? And even with the knowledge available to Lelouch, he should have known that killing Euphemia would make scare the Emperor away from ever visiting Japan and ruin his plans.

And I say that it is right to hate someone who kills someone he doesn't want to kill in order to get some advantage for his self or his side or his cause. It is one thing to start a war or revolution and know that a bunch of people will be killed but not know exactly who, and another and much more evil thing to kill a specific person who does not suspect anything and is harmless to you and can be captured in perfect safety and never be dangerous to anyone again, at a specific time and place in the hope of gaining some advantage. That is called murder.

If Lelouch killed someone he didn't want to kill merely in the hope of getting some advantage out of her death, that reminds me of the old joke about the wreckers: "A son's a son but a wreck's a wreck." and his attitude is just as evil as the mother's in that story.

And I don't see how Euphemia was one of the people that Lelouch sacrificed himself for. He may have cleared her reputation but what good does tht do her when she's dead?



The big problem here is that, despite your claim that you want to have a debate about Euphemia's death, this thread is not a "debate". Right now, you are apparently the only person who is right since you are pretty much ignoring the facts and opinions of others. Honestly, while I am not trying to change your opinions about Euphemia (believe me, there would be no point in even trying), I have shown you lots of (very solid) proof about the Geass and about the series itself when it comes to Euphemia (which you can barely contest since you have not watched the entire series, and are thus at an automatic disadvantage when discussing ANYTHING about the series) and how she couldn't have possibly broken the Geass at ANY point in time, while you have only given me speculation in return as "proof" of your point (which does not work here, I'm afraid).

There is difference in starting a valid argument, someone proving that you are wrong, and politely coinciding to the point, versus starting an argument, someone proving that you are wrong, some other person proving that you are wrong, more people proving that you are wrong and not only do you NOT coincide to the point(s), you ignore ALL of the points and simply announce yourself as being right (or announce that the others must be wrong) based on nonsense.

Like I said before, it really seems that unless one admits that Euphemia broke the Geass, says that she is the best character in the series, says that they felt sad about her death (or says that her death was an extremely bad thing) or basically doesn't coincide to ANY point that you make (regardless of whether or not you are actually right), they are the ones who are wrong (and you are right), no matter what evidence they have to the contrary. Not to mention the fact you often commit the Straw Man fallacy when saying that these people are wrong.

I mean, ever since I first posted my points against yours, you have called me out (four times, each time saying that I am wrong but without refuting my point), have called me a sinner (twice directly, three times implied), said that I must have latent violent tendencies (due to my not caring about Euphemia's death and the fact that I am in the military), called my morals into question, suggested that, due to my weapons training, I have a higher chance of committing homicide (twice) and have even suggested that I be killed (twice), all during a conversation about the death of a CARTOON CHARACTER!!

You can have whatever opinions about Euphemia that you want, but I really do not care about her death (at least, not anymore). I barely cared about her to begin with since Euphemia is a combination of Lacus Clyne and Relena Peacecraft (two characters I have honestly had enough of) and while I did feel a tinge of sadness over her death, I quickly got over it (about 20 seconds after it happened). Once again, as you know, I am in the military, so forgive me if I do not feel sad over the death of a CARTOON CHARACTER when I can name about two people that I have worked with and trained with who are in Iraq right now, and whose lives are a lot more important than that of a cartoon character. So its no wonder I don't feel sad about Euphemia.

Also, like I have said many times before, while you continue to bring up Euphemia's death (and complain about it), she continues to live in other Code Geass universes such as Suzaku of the Counterattack and Tales of an Alternate Shogunate. I mean, that's like being upset over the "death" of Sherlock Holmes long after he was brought back. You can be upset over Euphemia's death all you want, but so long as she is alive in alternative universes of Code Geass, I really can't feel that bad about her death.

proEuphie
09-11-2009, 11:24 PM
Okay, but remember THIS context: I am NOT talking about killing someone with the POTENTIAL to kill people. I am talking about killing someone who has ALREADY killed (and still is actively killing) people, namely Euphemia. I could care less about whether or not she could kill someone while locked away in a maximum security prison so long as she in the active process of KILLING PEOPLE!! Like I said, with my training, I would most likely kill Euphemia to stop her from killing people, NOT because she had the potential to do so, and certainly not to capture her and say "Well, at least SHE is alive", disregarding all the people that she has killed. By the way, if she was tried, she would probably be given the death penalty or spending the rest of her days in a prison cell where Goddess only know what will happen to her ("But at at least SHE is alive.").:rolleyes:

But again, that is my honest opinion (like I have been saying, I don't care what your opinion of Euphemia is and I can have whatever opinion I what about her), which you can argue about until your fingers fall off from typing and I still won't change my mind. You can try but it won't work.




Granted I am using my knowledge and experience to make an opinion about the situation that Euphemia was in. Again, I am not debunking your opinion that a person shouldn't be killed based on their potential to kill someone. However, that opinion is irrelevant since Euphemia does not fall under the category of someone who could potential kill; she is a person who has ALREADY killed.

By the way, I would have also hoped that, considering the last time you brought up my weapons training that you would realize that I resent the fact that that alone makes me a threat (of ANY sort at ANY level; there have been people who have killed others that had zero knowledge in guns beyond "pull the trigger") or comparing my actions to that of a cartoon character, who neither of us knew about until about 2 years ago.

Being a person who has already killed does not take a person out of the category of some who might potentially kill in the future. It doesn't make it pointless to compare their potential danger of killing with someone else's potential danger of killing.. I say that any serial killer who is imprisoned has less potential danger of killing someone in the future than any any innocent child has of growing up to kill someone in the future. Since it is obviously wrong to kill every innocent child to prevent the slight chance that he might kill in the future, there is no necessity to kill serial killers instead of capturing them alive and imprisoning them, on the grounds that the serials killers have a slight chance of killing someone in the future..


No I did not. I said that she (POTENTIALLY) had to killed because she was killing people and there was no real way to stop her beyond trying to capture her, which I wasn't going to do because I am not about to get shot to save a psycho killer whose in the process of killing. Of course, while WE know that Euphemia is innocent, the other characters did not know this at the time, so again, there is no real point in bringing that up.

There is a real point in bringing up the fact that Euphemia is innocent since Lelouch and CC knew that she was innocent.

And you would not have much chance of being shot if you walked up to Euphemia and tried to capture her if you were Lelouch. Lelouch did walk up to Euphemia in safety, in order to kill her. And it might have been slightly more dangerous for Lelouch to try some method of capturing her alive when he walked up to her. But didn't he owe it to her to take that slightly greater risk to make up for coming to the meeting planning to disrupt the SAZ and probably kill her and then later accidentally giving her the geass command? And if the slightly greater risk of wlaking up to Euphemia and then capturing her instead of killing her was too great, what about just picking her up in the hand of his giant robot, which owuld be evenless dangerous to Lleouch than walking up to her and killing her?




I HAVE been trained to capture. However, Euphemia was shooting bullets in every other direction trying to kill every Japanese she saw (and succeeding for the most part). Because of this, walking up to her to disarm her is out of the freaking question and I am certainly going to wait for her to HOPEFULLY stop shooting so that I can HOPEFULLY capture her. Again, with that situation, its my life and those of the people being attacked versus her life. At that point, I am not thinking about capturing the attacker; I am thinking about STOPPING them and IF it means killing them...well, I have been trained for that to (and again, this is a hypothetical situation about a character that doesn't exist beyond the realms of a book or television). I could shot her in the arms in legs to stop her but again, in a heated situation like that, I am not thinking about how to save HER life; I am going to thinking about how to save the lives of the people she is shooting at. Whether or not I actually end up killing her...well, maybe she will live and maybe she won't.



Does THIS look like only one freaking direction to you?!?!:banghead::banghead::banghead:
SzIKUDEOxlo

THAT is what I am talking about. I am not walking anyway NEAR that just so that I can save HER life. I fact, that is going to be the farthest thing from my mind. Forget HER life; I am going to be thinking about the lives of the people that she is SHOOTING AT!!:rolleyes:

No it dos not look like one direction to me. Because It is a scene from the stadium from episode 22. And when I said that Euphemia was shooting in only one direction I was talking about episode 23, several minutes or even hours of fictional time later. A time when the surviving Japanese were widely scattered and Euphemia would not have much reason to shoot widely in all directions because there would not be living Japanese in sight in all directions.

I think that I have proven that because Lelouch & co let Euphemia pick up and keep a machine gun (In episode 23 after her nightmare was destroyed) there could not have been any living Japanese in sight whose lives Lelouch & co. valued. I think that I have proven that because (in episode 23, not episode 22) Euphemia only shot at the nightmares after picking up the machine gun, and did not shoot at anything or anyone after turning around to look at Lelouch as he walked past and away from her, there could not be any living Japanese in sight in any direction who Euphemia wished to gun down.

I think that not stopping Euphie from picking the machine gun off the ground (in episode 23, not 22) and not taking it away from her is proof that Lelouch & co. did not see any living Japanese whose lives they valued in the vicinity. I think that not shooting at any Japanese civilian people after picking up the machine gun (in epsode 23, not 22) is proof that either Euphemia had broken and defeated her geass command (at least enough to satisfy those she did not shoot if not enough to satisfy you) or else there were no living Japanese in sight of Euphemia.

So there was a sort of a lull in the massacre since apparently there were no potential victims in sight after Lelouch destroyed Euphemia's nightmare (in episode 23, remember). At this point Lelouch could have chosen to kill or capture Euphemia alive immediately to prevent her from killing any Japanese person who might have unexpectedly appeared or he could have taken his time to kill or capture her, taking the risk that she might spot and kill some Japanese person in the meantime.

Lelouch chose to take his time to kill Euphemia, risking the lives of any Japanese who might have appeared in the time since he could have picked her up in the hand of his giant robot right after destroying her nightmare and before she picked up the machine gun (in episode 23). Why would someone take extra time to kill someone, risking that they might kill someone else, when they can capture them alive instantly in perfect safety? WHAT KIND OF SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?

You say you would not have walked into the spray of machine gun bullets in that clip from episode 22. We are discussing whether it was right for Lelouch to kill Euphemia the way he did in Episode 23, knowing what Lelouch knew. We are not discussing what a hypothetical person with a sniper rifle who didn't know that Euphemia had been geassed might have done to save the crowd during the stadium scene from episode 22.


HOWEVER, since this is my opinion about a hypothetical situation, you can argue with me if you want to but I think I have made my stance quite clear and since my opinion is based on training, I am not bound to change it.

wolfgirl90
09-13-2009, 05:26 PM
We are discussing whether it was right for Lelouch to kill Euphemia the way he did in Episode 23, knowing what Lelouch knew.

NO WE ARE NOT!!:banghead::banghead:

Look at the title of your thread. It is titled "Did Euphemia escape from the control of her Geass BEFORE Lelouch shot her"? We are certainly NOT discussing whether it was right for Lelouch to shoot Euphemia because that is not what you are asking or what this thread is about (make another thread if that is what you really want to talk about). I brought up the hypothetical situation because you kept mentioning the whole "Euphemia should have been saved" argument, when in reality, she most likely would have been shot to prevent her from shooting more people (since its not about HER, its about the people she is shooting at) or IF captured, she would have been given the death penalty and died anyway. Again, in that situation, I could care less about Euphemia's life (but that is my opinion on the matter; again you can TRY to change my mind but it won't work).

Hell, I still don't care because 1) she is a cartoon character (her "death" occurs each time the episode comes on, so how sad can I possibly be?) and 2) I have much more serious things going on in my life right now than to feel sad about the fake death of a CARTOON character.:closedeye

And I did not say that Lelouch couldn't have picked up Euphemia and carried her away. However, AGAIN, it was NEVER Lelouch's intention to save Euphemia's life. That never crossed his mind, so to argue otherwise is rather stupid. Why keep arguing about the ways that he could have saved Euphemia if saving her was never part of the plan to begin with?!:rolleyes:

Like I said, if she is your favorite character, that's fine. If you hate Lelouch for killing Euphemia, fine. I don't really care. However, if that is ONLY source behind your claims (ie "Euphemia is the best character ever, so she MUST have broken the Geass"), then we are not having a discussion right now. Its just you talking.

Anyway, unless you have something else to bring to the table about Euphemia escaping the Geass BEFORE she got shot (IF she broke the Geass at all) that does not include pure speculation and a rather loose grip on the dynamics and the limited universes of cartoons, then this thread is effectively over and you should start a new one (if you must continue this tirade about Euphemia and Lelouch).

Of course, this whole "I-can't-get-over-Euphemia's-death-because-it-was-so-outrageous-sad-and-wrong-and-I-must-tell-every-soul-about-it" spiel that you are on is making you look like a troll (you are not only bringing this up in your threads but other people's threads as well). Whether you actually ARE one is debatable, but you need to calm down and get a grip.

Right now, its just a thread about how right you must be, not a discussion about anything. Like I have said before, you have a legitimate argument, but are not handling the discussion in a very good way.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Because of this, I am effectively done with this thread. You don't seem to respond to logic and reason and your high opinion of Euphemia seems to be the only thing backing up your arguments. You seem to be the only one who believes that Euphemia broke the Geass (despite the OBVIOUS proof from almost EVERYBODY). Arguing with you is like arguing with a hardcore Twilight fan; its best not to argue with them for too long (if at all) since nothing you say matters to them.

By the way, I am simply leaving the argument (since you are really not doing anything to further this discussion). I am not conceding to your argument that Euphemia broke the Geass, something that I think is complete nonsense and that if it actually happened, it would have been common knowledge BY NOW and there is basically nothing that you have said (or much more that you can say, as you have only seen less than half of the series due to you wanting to ride a moral high horse about a freaking cartoon) that proves otherwise. Like I said before, you might post something after this, but I will most likely not respond. I am pretty much done with you.

Kamen Rider V3 Blue
09-13-2009, 05:40 PM
Hey proEuphy have you seen gundam 00 yet if not than go watch it maybe it would slightly ease your pain and dont worry no one dies it's gundam after allsome people die...*cough*Neil Dylandy,the Trinities,Sergei*cough*

blackrosetwilight
09-13-2009, 09:10 PM
some people die...*cough*Neil Dylandy,the Trinities,Sergei*cough*
Nah uh nobody died they just all went to sleep in tomato juice because people in gundam never die...
Im being sarcastic everyone knows people die in gundam all the time. They pioneered the whole killing off main characters thing

Kamen Rider V3 Blue
09-13-2009, 09:42 PM
Nah uh nobody died they just all went to sleep in tomato juice because people in gundam never die...
Im being sarcastic everyone knows people die in gundam all the time. They pioneered the whole killing off main characters thing Oh Yes forgot about that!:p

Alkazor
09-13-2009, 10:16 PM
As long as we're totally off topic, I think I'll ask a question.

It wasn't worth making a new thread for...but why did Mao even start with Lelouch and Shirley if he didn't know who they were? Was it to draw out C.C.? I wouldn't think he'd be able to feel that connection, and I thought he was a recluse with no contact with the outside world...

kimi no kioku
09-16-2009, 07:16 AM
@pro Euphie
No, she didn't. I can see the red in her eyes. She even said "I thought you were one of them." To Lelouch when he got out of his knightmare. I don't think the creaters would put such a pointless thing in the series. Not to mention, who cares? It's just an anime.

@Alkazor
Maybe he heard about Zero and just assumed he had Geass and started following him around without knowing what he looked like. Then he heard Shirley think that Lelouch was Zero. So he used her. Or maybe he's just mean and he wanted to mess with someone using Geass. I think it's a huge plothole personally.

blackrosetwilight
09-16-2009, 07:13 PM
As long as we're totally off topic, I think I'll ask a question.

It wasn't worth making a new thread for...but why did Mao even start with Lelouch and Shirley if he didn't know who they were? Was it to draw out C.C.? I wouldn't think he'd be able to feel that connection, and I thought he was a recluse with no contact with the outside world...
he could read minds remeber

wolfgirl90
09-17-2009, 12:55 AM
As long as we're totally off topic, I think I'll ask a question.

It wasn't worth making a new thread for...but why did Mao even start with Lelouch and Shirley if he didn't know who they were? Was it to draw out C.C.? I wouldn't think he'd be able to feel that connection, and I thought he was a recluse with no contact with the outside world...

Think he did it for the lulz at first (the world would be a better place if villains had Game Boys to distract them).:p

While Mao could read minds, he didn't figure out that C.C was around until after that whole thing with Lelouch and Shirley. And considering how much he loved C.C (and that's putting it mildly), if he was trying to lure out C.C, I don't think he would have bothered dealing with Shirley beyond luring out Lelouch or at least, he would have used them as very obvious pawns to get to C.C (ie mentioning that he wanted to find her).

Of course, like kimi no kioku said, it could very well be a plot hole.

kimi no kioku
10-06-2009, 06:41 AM
"Think he did it for the lulz at first (the world would be a better place if villains had Game Boys to distract them)"


That made me lol.

Alkazor
10-06-2009, 08:41 PM
I could totally see it-

Rivalz: "Oh my god, Lelouch, was that our fault?"

Lelouch: "Does it matter? Kingdom Hearts 358/2 days came out today, I don't care if it was our fault, I'm not missing the release!"

Lol.

bee.
10-11-2009, 10:40 PM
tldr; wah wah wah wah waaah wah

proEuphie
10-11-2009, 10:43 PM
Hey proEuphy have you seen gundam 00 yet if not than go watch it maybe it would slightly ease your pain and dont worry no one dies it's gundam after all

REally. On Dec. 29 I watched Gundam 00 on the sci-fi channel for the first and last time. And I saw part of episode 11. The one where alleujah takes his gundam back to the lab where he he escaped from as child, where children were turned into super soldiers. And he blew up the lab (good) with the current students in it (bad).

Apparently he couldn't find a way to evacuate them from the building, so he just blew them up with the building. Yuck!

I can't help thinking your suggestion was probably a trick on your part.

blackrosetwilight
10-12-2009, 06:34 PM
REally. On Dec. 29 I watched Gundam 00 on the sci-fi channel for the first and last time. And I saw part of episode 11. The one where alleujah takes his gundam back to the lab where he he escaped from as child, where children were turned into super soldiers. And he blew up the lab (g99d) with the current students in it (bad).

Apprently he couldn't find a way to evacutate them from the building, so he just blew them up with the building. Yuck!

I can't hel;p thinking your suggestion was probably a trick on yur part.
Woah I didnt see that episode lol, well how about Fafner: left of right OVA, it's quite good, actually its very good, most of the character stick to their ideals to the very end. Oh and there's no political moral or justice dilemma in it so you'll enjoy it except for a few death here and there and if you liked it then go watch the series since it's not as good as the OVA, also Fafner: left of right is the prequal to the series, but than again if you already seen Eva than you pretty much seen all of what Fafner has to offer. Fafner is like a candy coated version of Eva, so you know it will be good.

kimi no kioku
10-17-2009, 12:56 PM
I could totally see it-

Rivalz: "Oh my god, Lelouch, was that our fault?"

Lelouch: "Does it matter? Kingdom Hearts 358/2 days came out today, I don't care if it was our fault, I'm not missing the release!"

Lol.

Lmao

wolfgirl90
10-18-2009, 09:40 PM
REally. On Dec. 29 I watched Gundam 00 on the sci-fi channel for the first and last time. And I saw part of episode 11. The one where alleujah takes his gundam back to the lab where he he escaped from as child, where children were turned into super soldiers. And he blew up the lab (g99d) with the current students in it (bad).

Apparently he couldn't find a way to evacuate them from the building, so he just blew them up with the building. Yuck!

I can't help thinking your suggestion was probably a trick on your part.

Honestly, proEuphie, death in anime is part of the territory. It happens A LOT. But hey, at least the pacifistic princess doesn't die in Gundam 00. You can feel good about that.

And, FYI, Allelujah has a nice little crazy, unstable, sadistic guy in his head named Hallelujah who pretty much popped in to do every other "evil" thing that Allelujah did (Allelujah is one of the more...stable members of Celestial Being). This includes blowing up the HRL Super Soldier Research Institute with the children inside.

And bare in mind that Allelujah actually WANTED to rescue the children and even contemplated ways of doing so. However, Hallelujah kicked in and pretty much forced him to pull the trigger.

But let me guess: you just pushed the rest of that out of your head and chose to ignore it.:rolleyes:


I could totally see it-

Rivalz: "Oh my god, Lelouch, was that our fault?"

Lelouch: "Does it matter? Kingdom Hearts 358/2 days came out today, I don't care if it was our fault, I'm not missing the release!"

Lol.

Damn right.:cool:

proEuphie
10-19-2009, 09:53 PM
Honestly, proEuphie, death in anime is part of the territory. It happens A LOT. But hey, at least the pacifistic princess doesn't die in Gundam 00. You can feel good about that.

And, FYI, Allelujah has a nice little crazy, unstable, sadistic guy in his head named Hallelujah who pretty much popped in to do every other "evil" thing that Allelujah did (Allelujah is one of the more...stable members of Celestial Being). This includes blowing up the HRL Super Soldier Research Institute with the children inside.

And bare in mind that Allelujah actually WANTED to rescue the children and even contemplated ways of doing so. However, Hallelujah kicked in and pretty much forced him to pull the trigger.

But let me guess: you just pushed the rest of that out of your head and chose to ignore it.:rolleyes:



Damn right.:cool:

Yes, death and violence is part of many genres of anime. But I prefer protagonists who are somewhat restrained in their use of mayhem. It seems that the Hallelujah personality is a lot worse than the Allelujah one, but after that introduction I am not very eager to see how what I think of Allelujah in action. Perhaps he should have spent more time with his psychiatist before joining Celstrial Being.

are you saying that I should not hate Allelujah or think he is evil? Maybe not. He is sort of an analogy to possessed Eupheia, after all. But I think that he should have thought twice, three times, four times, and many more times before joining a paramilitary organization if he knew that he had Hallelujah's personality inside waiting to take over at the worst possible moments. Celestrial Being must be very short of good gundam pilots if they think they have to keep Allelujah despite th danger of Hallelujah.

div
10-19-2009, 11:42 PM
tl;dr:

proEuphie is either the most dedicated troll ever, or clinically insane. Can we get a moderator, or someone to stop he/she/it from spamming the Code Geass threads with nonsense? I mean, I'm not trying to say that proEuphie isn't entitled to its own opinion, but this is just ridiculous... joining every thread just to start a pointless argument about a work of fiction without citing any sort of evidence and randomly asserting things as if he/she/it wrote the freaking thing is getting old.

kimi no kioku
10-20-2009, 08:04 AM
tl;dr:

proEuphie is either the most dedicated troll ever, or clinically insane. Can we get a moderator, or someone to stop he/she/it from spamming the Code Geass threads with nonsense? I mean, I'm not trying to say that proEuphie isn't entitled to its own opinion, but this is just ridiculous... joining every thread just to start a pointless argument about a work of fiction without citing any sort of evidence and randomly asserting things as if he/she/it wrote the freaking thing is getting old.


I agree. The mods should take action. This is ridiculous. It's so annoying because it's always like "SO EVIL!!" like everyone who isn't Euphy is just horrible.

proEuphie
10-21-2009, 09:59 PM
I agree. The mods should take action. This is ridiculous. It's so annoying because it's always like "SO EVIL!!" like everyone who isn't Euphy is just horrible.

I never said that Gandalf was evil. I never said that Inuyasha was evil. I never said that Scarlet O'Hara was evil. I never said that Sherlock Holmes was evil. I never said that James Bond was evil.

However, I did say that in Code Geass the Britiannian military commits a lot of massacres and other atrocities and that the Japanese rebels include terrorist groups. I say that anyone in either group who doesn't do something to reduce or eliminate the evil actions done by others in his group becomes contamminated by those evil actions and evil himself.

I have said that Milly and Rivalez are not evil because they never joined either group by the end of the series and Euphemia is not evil because she seeems to hadve done something at least once to reduce the level of atrocities committed by the Britannian military, at the Battle of Narita.

And just about every other code geass character of any importance that I can think of has done evil himself on hse become contamminated bythe evil ofhis side.

kimi no kioku
10-23-2009, 07:17 AM
I never said that Gandalf was evil. I never said that Inuyasha was evil. I never said that Scarlet O'Hara was evil. I never said that Sherlock Holmes was evil. I never said that James Bond was evil.

However, I did say that in Code Geass the Britiannian military commits a lot of massacres and other atrocities and that the Japanese rebels include terrorist groups. I say that anyone in either group who doesn't do something to reduce or eliminate the evil actions done by others in his group becomes contamminated by those evil actions and evil himself.

I have said that Milly and Rivalez are not evil because they never joined either group by the end of the series and Euphemia is not evil because she seeems to hadve done something at least once to reduce the level of atrocities committed by the Britannian military, at the Battle of Narita.

And just about every other code geass character of any importance that I can think of has done evil himself on hse become contamminated bythe evil ofhis side.


Yeah. Thanks. I would come to a Code Geass board and talk about something else completely. I MEANT IN CODE GEASS! Jeez...

So what? They don't do anything that bad. Nothing that people wouldn't do in real life. Go watch Blood Plus, you'll see some REAL evil people in that.

wolfgirl90
10-23-2009, 03:04 PM
are you saying that I should not hate Allelujah or think he is evil? Maybe not. He is sort of an analogy to possessed Eupheia, after all. But I think that he should have thought twice, three times, four times, and many more times before joining a paramilitary organization if he knew that he had Hallelujah's personality inside waiting to take over at the worst possible moments. Celestrial Being must be very short of good gundam pilots if they think they have to keep Allelujah despite th danger of Hallelujah.

Assuming that is what happened...which it didn't. Again, its best if you ask a question for confirmation, then continue with your hypothesis, rather than present it as fact.

Allelujah joined Celestial Being after coming to terms with the fact that he was a super soldier. While Hallelujah is a murderous personality based solely on instinct, when they are working together, its basically two brains working together in one person (Allelujah's planning with Hallelujah's instincts), which makes them a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield.

Also, Allelujah joined with the side mission of preventing people like him from existing, so destroying the HRL lab was something that he had been planning for a while. He just hesitated at the last minute when thought about rescuing the kids, which caused Hallelujah to step in.

Of course, Allelujah suffered a brain injury that damaged the quantum brain waves in his head, causing the "death" of Hallelujah.

proEuphie
10-28-2009, 11:31 PM
Assuming that is what happened...which it didn't. Again, its best if you ask a question for confirmation, then continue with your hypothesis, rather than present it as fact.

Allelujah joined Celestial Being after coming to terms with the fact that he was a super soldier. While Hallelujah is a murderous personality based solely on instinct, when they are working together, its basically two brains working together in one person (Allelujah's planning with Hallelujah's instincts), which makes them a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield.

Also, Allelujah joined with the side mission of preventing people like him from existing, so destroying the HRL lab was something that he had been planning for a while. He just hesitated at the last minute when thought about rescuing the kids, which caused Hallelujah to step in.

Of course, Allelujah suffered a brain injury that damaged the quantum brain waves in his head, causing the "death" of Hallelujah.

You say that Allelujah hesitated at the last minute when he thought about rescuing the kids and Hallelujah got involved. This is about when I tuned into the episode, at the debate beween A & H.

Anyway, your statement implies that the original plan was to destroy the lab with everyone in it, including the child victims. If so, that was an evil plan.

Why couldn't Allelujah have broken in every window of the building and seen who was in every room and given them warning shots from a machine gun if he had a machine gun attachment, warning them to get out of the building as fast as possible? He could have started at the top and worked his way down, using his loud speaker to warn everyone to get out as soon as possible since he was about to blow up the building.

It seems to me that he could have evacuated the builidng in a few minutes (and twice as fast if there were two Gundams on the mission) and herded everyone safely away from the building, and blown it up. He could have separated the adults from the children, machine gunned the more evil-looking adults, and ordered the rest to take the children to safety or die.

Soon after the building was blown up an evil-looking scientist was arrest fro taking part in unlawful experiments, Presumably he was the director of the super soldier project. It was way to soon for investigators to examine the wreckage and find evidence of illegal activity and evidence that a specific person was the mad scientist in charge.

So he must have been arrested because of information that Celestrial Being had supplied, information that was credible enough for someone to be arrested. If so, Celestrial Being should have had evidence that was credible enough to expose and shut down the super soldier project. And of course if any more evidence was needed, it would be a lot more likely to come from the testimony of living experimenters and subjects drivien from the labe before it was destroyed instead of from their dead bodies.

Anyway, what good does it do to blow up one lab full of experimenters and subjects? Wouldn't the experimenters have to give superior authorities in some other location reports on their activities detailing their methods? And if the project was a success, wouldn't it be expanded to include other locations?

It seems to me that the best way to destroy the super soldier program would be a gundam secret mission to kidnap the leaders of the nation responsible and torture them on television until they ordered that the super soldier program and all other programs Celestrial Being considered evil to be abolished and ended. And they would continue to be tortured periodically until Celestrial Being had proof that those programs had been ended.

Then they could continue to rule their nation long distance from where they were held by Celestrial Being, with the warning that every time they gave an order Celestrial Being considered evil they would be tortured until it was countermanded.

Anyway, it seems to me that if Celestrial Being approved a mission that was highly likely or certain to result in the deaths of many innocent children, then all the members of Celestrial Being are evil.

And of course in the real world there are many teenagers and children who volunteer or are kidnapped to become trained as warriors in Asia, Africa, and Latin America. There are many less science fictional and more traditional programs to turn kids into less extreme versions of super soldiers.

So every member of the US military should chose now what they are going to do if they ever discover a campground or compound where children are being trained to be guerrillas or terrorists or rebels. Will he take the easy but evil route and call in an air strike or artillery fire to wipe out everyone, or should he find another way to defeat the enemy which will increase the probability of survival for the children?

Actually the Pentagon should decree that in such a situation every US soldier must find a different way, a way that greatly increases the probability that the children will survive, while at the same time decreeing that the adult trainers and leaders of child warriors should always be summarily executed, and the political leaders who approve the use of child warriors are guilty of murder and must be executed upon conviction of using child warriors.

blackrosetwilight
10-29-2009, 04:55 PM
and we're at the what if's again

wolfgirl90
10-31-2009, 07:03 PM
Anyway, your statement implies that the original plan was to destroy the lab with everyone in it, including the child victims. If so, that was an evil plan.

Why couldn't Allelujah have broken in every window of the building and seen who was in every room and given them warning shots from a machine gun if he had a machine gun attachment, warning them to get out of the building as fast as possible? He could have started at the top and worked his way down, using his loud speaker to warn everyone to get out as soon as possible since he was about to blow up the building.

It seems to me that he could have evacuated the builidng in a few minutes (and twice as fast if there were two Gundams on the mission) and herded everyone safely away from the building, and blown it up. He could have separated the adults from the children, machine gunned the more evil-looking adults, and ordered the rest to take the children to safety or die.

Did you read what I posted? I said that the original plan was to DESTROY the lab. Its rather pointless to offer alternatives to a plan that never existed in the first place. It was only when Allelujah finally got to the lab that he hesitated, deciding that he should try and save the children instead. However, the hesitation caused Hallelujah to step in.

Could Allelujah have thought up of all those ways to save the children? Yes, he could have. However, the simple hesitation was enough to trigger Hallelujah's appearance, causing the destruction of the lab anyway.


So he must have been arrested because of information that Celestrial Being had supplied, information that was credible enough for someone to be arrested. If so, Celestrial Being should have had evidence that was credible enough to expose and shut down the super soldier project. And of course if any more evidence was needed, it would be a lot more likely to come from the testimony of living experimenters and subjects drivien from the labe before it was destroyed instead of from their dead bodies.

Anyway, what good does it do to blow up one lab full of experimenters and subjects? Wouldn't the experimenters have to give superior authorities in some other location reports on their activities detailing their methods? And if the project was a success, wouldn't it be expanded to include other locations?

AGAIN, you are making assumptions of something you don't really know and are running with them as fact. Again, it would have been better for you to ask about it and make a hypothesis based on that rather than make something up.

The super soldier program ended the moment the facility was destroyed. The public found out about it during the investigation of the building. The HRL military was already well aware of the super soldier program (they were using them...duh), so there were no suprises on that front.

The scientist you saw get arrested was arrested because he found a connection between Allelujah (known as E-0057) and Soma Peries, another super soldier, but never told anyone. Every time the two met on the battlefield, Soma would have a reaction to Allelujah's quantum brainwaves. Lieutenant Colonal Sergei Smirnov (Soma's commander) previously asked the scientist if there was a reason why this happened. The scientist knew the reason, but never told Sergei.


Anyway, it seems to me that if Celestrial Being approved a mission that was highly likely or certain to result in the deaths of many innocent children, then all the members of Celestrial Being are evil.

Well, this is Bandai, so it is not so black-and-white. In fact, just like the actions of the Black Knights in Code Geass, the actions of Celestial Being cause a conundrum: If peace is obtained through violent means, then is it truly peace? Is it even worth it? The actions of Celestial Being have caused the amount of battles to go down, but if it was caused by violent actions, is that peace a good thing? Its one of those complex conundrums (ones that you have proven to not be able to understand).


So every member of the US military should chose now what they are going to do if they ever discover a campground or compound where children are being trained to be guerrillas or terrorists or rebels. Will he take the easy but evil route and call in an air strike or artillery fire to wipe out everyone, or should he find another way to defeat the enemy which will increase the probability of survival for the children?

Or I could take the route that I am trained to take: to report to my commander for further orders. "Call in an air strike"? Yeah, this is real-life, not video games. Lay off the Call of Duty.:rolleyes:

Rei
11-01-2009, 05:58 AM
The Point Is: Why are we talking about Gundam 00 in a Code Geass thread??

Besides, if you factor in Gundam, its point is to make lots of stuff explode with a big 'Boom' (Boomz, if you prefer) and impact, so as to wipe everyone there out and cause Mass Destruction, simply.

blackrosetwilight
11-01-2009, 06:31 AM
The Point Is: Why are we talking about Gundam 00 in a Code Geass thread??

Besides, if you factor in Gundam, its point is to make lots of stuff explode with a big 'Boom' (Boomz, if you prefer) and impact, so as to wipe everyone there out and cause Mass Destruction, simply.
Gundam and Code Geass are made by the same guys and share many similarity.

Also gundam isnt all about explosions and killing everyone

B Gundam
11-01-2009, 10:30 AM
The Point Is: Why are we talking about Gundam 00 in a Code Geass thread??

Besides, if you factor in Gundam, its point is to make lots of stuff explode with a big 'Boom' (Boomz, if you prefer) and impact, so as to wipe everyone there out and cause Mass Destruction, simply.
Gundam was the first realistic mecha genre anime involving in depth character development, ethics, tragedies of war, maybe some philosophy and politics on the way.

Basically the forefather of a lot of topics handled in Code Geass (which is part of a genre that Gundam founded) from political struggles to Lelouch wearing a mask. There are certain Gundam series that do make a lot of things go "boom" or rise power levels over nine thousand or complete nonsensicalness, but please don't throw the whole Gundam metaverse along with that.

Kotomi Ichinose
11-01-2009, 03:37 PM
Personally, I do not think Euphemia escaped the Geass until AFTER Lelouch shot her. The second after the bullet hit her, she realized what was going on. This is when she escaped the Geass, but not completely as it still somewhat effected her on her death bed.

proEuphie
11-01-2009, 10:10 PM
Did you read what I posted? I said that the original plan was to DESTROY the lab. Its rather pointless to offer alternatives to a plan that never existed in the first place. It was only when Allelujah finally got to the lab that he hesitated, deciding that he should try and save the children instead. However, the hesitation caused Hallelujah to step in.

Could Allelujah have thought up of all those ways to save the children? Yes, he could have. However, the simple hesitation was enough to trigger Hallelujah's appearance, causing the destruction of the lab anyway.

Thank you for filling me in about about plot elements that I missed.

So you seem to be saying that the original plan was to destroy the lab. Unless Allelujah and the rest of Celestrial being thought the lab was temporarily empty due to an intermission since the last class was "graduated" and before a new class was assembled, the plan to destroy the lab was what I would call evil.

Doesn't Celestrial Being employ any old fashioned infantry? If they had any they could fly some in with a Gundam as an escort, send the infantry to defeat any guards, take everyone else prisoners back n the infantry's ship, and the gundam could blow up the lab.

And if Celestrial Being doesn't have any infantry of its own it might be able borrow some from a friendly nation it has helped. Or even swoop down on an isolated enemy unit, threaten them with instant death unless they surrender, take a few as hostages, and send the rest to capture the lab and liberate the children and release them when they are done.


Well, this is Bandai, so it is not so black-and-white. In fact, just like the actions of the Black Knights in Code Geass, the actions of Celestial Being cause a conundrum: If peace is obtained through violent means, then is it truly peace? Is it even worth it? The actions of Celestial Being have caused the amount of battles to go down, but if it was caused by violent actions, is that peace a good thing? Its one of those complex conundrums (ones that you have proven to not be able to understand).


I don't see the complex conundrum.

If everyone in the world was a good as Euphemia, if every military commander was as careful as she about reducing collateral damage and reducing the amount of killing as much as possible. then war would be an okay thing. So long as as the death and suffering was restricted to adults who had volunteered to serve and risk their lives then fine by me. But since there is no way to guarantee that all warriors would take a lot of care not to harm noncombatents in the future, war must be abolished.

The world must have peace -- eternal peace if possible. So I have no problem with peace obtained though violence. But I have a big problem with anyone who seeks peace or any other goal he thinks is worthwhile who thinks that because he (thinks that he) will do a great deal of good it is right for him to do any amount of evil to achieve that good, so long as the evil is less the good he hopes to achieve.

Suppose that in alternate universe one Person A1 never tries to unify the world and countless trillions of persons are killed in wars in the next billion years.

His alternate self Person A2 in alternate universe two who conquers the world killing five billion people but saving trillions of lives in the next billion years would make a better choice than A1.

His alternate self Person A3 in alternate universe three who unites the world by peaceful negotiation but has to kill one billion rebels and saves trillions of lives in the next billion years would be better than Person A2.

His alternate self Person A4 in alternate universe four who conquers and unites the world killing only fifty million people and saving trillions of lives in the next billion years would be better than Person A3.

His alternate self Person A5 in alternate universe five who unites the world by peaceful negotiation but has to kill one million rebels and saves trillions of lives in the next billion years would be better than Person A4.

And so on. Best of all would be Person A482,385,468 in alternate universe 482,385,468 who unites the world and saves trillions of lives in the next billion years without killing a single person.

Since it is obviously unwise to send someone emotionally involved on a mission the leaders of Infernal Being - I mean Celestrial Being -- should not have sent Allelujah on the mission. And if no other Gundam master except Allelujah could be induced to go then obviously destroying the lab which produced super soldiers did not seem like a high priority to anyone except Allelujah. And if so it was clearly not something worth killing even one child for.

If one of the plans I suggested had been adopted and if Allelujah had not been sent on the mission and Hallelujah had not taken over, the lab would have been destroyed and the children rescued (and they could have testified about the super soldier program and given Celestrial Being good publicity).

Celestrial Being could have easily destroyed the lab and saved the children. Thus destroying the lab and killing the children reveals that they don't care much about how many people - even children - they kill in their operations.

At the end of the episode there was a conversation in which someone described Celestrial Being as the most feared terrorist organization in the world. Since the show was produced after 09/11/2001 for a Japanese and international audience including Americans, I would think that the original writers and the translators should have been very precise and not used the word terrorist unless it was fairly accurate. There seems no business sense in calling your protagonists terrorists unless they are actually terrorists.

It is scientifically possible for a terrorist organization to do more good than evil and maybe even save the world from some danger, but the odds of that happening are very slight. Very, very, very, very, very slight. I believe that all terrorist organizations are so inherently evil that only one out of countless millions of terrorist organizations will ever do more good than harm. Thus nobody should ever make a story in which a terrorist organization does more good than harm, let alone saves the world, until there have been millions of stories in which terrorist organizations do more evil than good.

Terrorists or not, Celestrial Being seems too evil to be worthy protagonists of a story. And the same goes for the Black Knights and the Britannians (except for Euphemia) in Code Geass.

I can picture a war story in which all the major characters are as good as Euphemia. And in which one or more of those characters eventually decides that he, she, or it has been fighting on the wrong side and switches sides. And this character may feel horribly guilty about all the people he, she. or it has killed while fighting for a side which he, she, or it now believes is the wrong side in the conflict.

But at least that character can take comfort in knowing that he, she, or it has always tried to prevent the deaths of noncombatants and win with as little killing as possible, and thus has much less blood on his, her, or its hands (or tentacles) than someone who fought without trying to reduce the deaths to a minimum.

If even a character as good and innocent as Euphemia might happen to be a member of the wrong side and thus do more harm than good, someone who is as ruthless as Celestrial being, or their opponents, or the Black Knights and the Britannians is only likely to do more good than evil by sheer accident. I see no point in making a story about evil people who by some utterly unlikely chance happen to be fighting for the right cause and thus happen accidentally to save the world.


Or I could take the route that I am trained to take: to report to my commander for further orders. "Call in an air strike"? Yeah, this is real-life, not video games. Lay off the Call of Duty.:rolleyes:

proEuphie
11-01-2009, 10:17 PM
The Point Is: Why are we talking about Gundam 00 in a Code Geass thread??

Besides, if you factor in Gundam, its point is to make lots of stuff explode with a big 'Boom' (Boomz, if you prefer) and impact, so as to wipe everyone there out and cause Mass Destruction, simply.

Because in a previous post someone recommended it to me as a series in which nobody gets killed and I happened to have seen one of the episodes in which one of the protagonists blew up a lab full of children.

Rei
11-02-2009, 09:10 AM
All Right, sorry, and I admit my mistake. Gundam 00 does actually have many characters with depth, and it is also one of my favourite series. Just that I was pissed of at the time I posted it.


Because in a previous post someone recommended it to me as a series in which nobody gets killed and I happened to have seen one of the episodes in which one of the protagonists blew up a lab full of children.

-Then the person who recommended you the series was wrong.

B Gundam
11-02-2009, 09:14 AM
Doesn't Celestrial Being employ any old fashioned infantry? If they had any they could fly some in with a Gundam as an escort, send the infantry to defeat any guards, take everyone else prisoners back n the infantry's ship, and the gundam could blow up the lab.

And if Celestrial Being doesn't have any infantry of its own it might be able borrow some from a friendly nation it has helped. Or even swoop down on an isolated enemy unit, threaten them with instant death unless they surrender, take a few as hostages, and send the rest to capture the lab and liberate the children and release them when they are done.
I am astonished you haven't achieved World domination yet with the plans you can always come up with. I never though infantry was so easy to come by. I guess Celestial Being should have blackmailed the World into Peace and it somehow magically works. What are you waiting for? Go do it, achieve World Peace, we'd all like that, or most people at least.

And while you're at it go come up with other plans like "why don't we just clone Kira Yamato a billyun tiems and make him win all wars without killing pplz?".


And so on. Best of all would be Person A482,385,468 in alternate universe 482,385,468 who unites the world and saves trillions of lives in the next billion years without killing a single person.
Lets not forget that for every A you count actually saving more than they kill, there are tenfold more As causing more damage than they prevent if they'd had not tried such a ridiculous plan in the first place (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero) with the same ideas, hundredfold more As simply failing or dying and achieving nothing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HopeSpot) and thousandfold more As who didn't even try in the first place.

kimi no kioku
11-07-2009, 09:31 PM
Lets not forget that for every A you count actually saving more than they kill, there are tenfold more As causing more damage than they prevent if they'd had not tried such a ridiculous plan in the first place with the same ideas, hundredfold more As simply failing or dying and achieving nothing and thousandfold more As who didn't even try in the first place.

LMAO!

proEuphie
12-06-2009, 12:03 AM
I am responding to post # 150


Quote: "And how can killing Euphemia add to the drama? "
Are you blind? Wait stupid question, why else would you have started this thread.

Ummm...

last time I checked, someone Dying adds to drama, which is kind of why all those people in Dramas, you know, DIE!?

Killing Euphemia did not add to the drama, it added to the cheap melodrama. If Lelouch was in a situation where Killing Euphemia and not killing her would both lead to evil results he could have chosen to kill her from some well motivated, dramatic reason. But Lelouch was in a situation were capturing Euphemia was clearly far superior to killing her and killed her anyway for no apparent reason. That is melodrama, not well written drama.


The point I am making, again and again and again, is that YOU dont seem to be able to handle it. You are obviously either way to young or way to immature to handle it. So go watch Kim Possible where no one dies and have fun.

These days even the protagonists of Disney shows sometimes turn out to be evil. See, for example, the "Franken Girl" and "Three Monsters" episodes of Wizards of Waverly Place.


Quote: "If you like his response to my post you should read my post number 144 in which I respond to it."

and if that was some attempt to be smart with me, dont, you WILL lose.

I was just saying that I refuted his post in my post # 144.



You seem to be completely unaware that you sound like a five year old with a dictionary who just watched peter cottontail get shot.


Anime characters are pawns to the producers of the show. Code geass was made to get money. The DEATH of a nice character made it more interesting and the twist was so unexpected that it made people wonder "what will happen next?"

The death of Euphemia made me lose all interest in what happened next. I was not interested in finding out what happened to the various evil characters on the show after that. Euphemia had more goodness than all the other characters put together, so what happened to her was more important than the fates of all the other characters put together. So what is the point of watching to find out which minor plot twists will happen in the second season, when the plot twist which has already happened is more important than all the others put together? Apparently the producers of Code Geass believed that it was impossible to underestimate the ethical standards of anime fans.



And yes, lelouch did suffer.
He lost his mother,
his fahter didnt want him and treated him like a political tool,
hie BEST friend became his enemy
his was forced to kill his sister and brother
his father took nunally away
he was left alone near the end of the series
He was lead to believe that Nunnaly was, dead, which tore him apart.
He discovered that his mother was actually a psycho that really didnt care much for him anyway
His sister hated him despite the fact that every thing he had done was for her

dont you TELL me that he didn't suffer as much as ANYONE on that show. no one even came close.

Was Euphemia's mother ever mentioned? It is possible that she died or something and that Cornelia raised Euphemia for several years. And she lost Marianne, who was a friend to her and possibly like a mother to her.
Euphemia's fahter didnt want her and treated her like a political tool.
Her long-lost brother treacherously murdered her.
She was forced to go into battle at Narita to make sure that Cornelia did not massacre the JLF and/or the Narita towns people.
her father sent nunally away
She often felt alone when she saw how everybody was willing to do evil things.
She was lead to believe that Nunnaly and Lelouch were dead, which tore her apart for seven years - much longer than Lelouch believed that Nunnally was dead.
She discovered that her brother was actually a psycho that really didnt care much for her anyway
The Japanese hated her despite the fact the her last words were hopes for their happiness.

Here is just one character, Euphemia, who seems to have suffered about as much as Lelouch did. But it took a geass command to make a mass murderer out of her. As long as she had control of herself, she didn't let her suffering turn her vengeful - unlike Lelouch.

If you can watch Lelouch order the geass directorate massacre of his own free will and still be shocked by his death, how can you watch Euphemia struggle desperately against a geass command before ordering a massacre and not be even more shocked by her death than by Lelouch's?

I am certain that many of the countless millions of unnamed extras in Code Geass had much more tragic lives with much more suffering than Lelouch did. Many persons whose fathers abandoned their mothers before they were born, whose mothers died in childbirth or abandoned them to orphanages when they were born or who neglected them terribly. They were passed from foster family to foster family or largely ignored in orphanages Finally they found loving families to adopt them, but just as they were settling in their new families were viciously murdered by crazed cultists or slaughtered in a Britannian invasion or the Black Rebellion or killed in an earthquake or other natural disaster and they found their way back to orphanages.

Then new families found them and they overcome their fears that they would jinx the new family and found brief happiness before their new homes in Tokyo or Pendragon were destroyed by F.R.E.I.J.A. They were instantly vaporized or their shattered bodies were pinned under rubble and their struggles could not get them free as the raging fires came closer and closer and___or they survived the bombing and wandered around in a daze until radiation sickness killed them.

I read that tens of millions were killed in Tokyo and Pendragon. So many of the victims must have had such tragic lives before being killed at the age of fourteen, or twelve, or ten, or younger.


You fail as an anime fan.
I am not an anime fan. I have watched a bunch of animes and thought that many of them were interesting and enjoyable. I don't want to be anime fan if I have to give up all my ethical standards to succeed as one.

proEuphie
12-06-2009, 12:51 AM
I am astonished you haven't achieved World domination yet with the plans you can always come up with. I never though infantry was so easy to come by. I guess Celestial Being should have blackmailed the World into Peace and it somehow magically works. What are you waiting for? Go do it, achieve World Peace, we'd all like that, or most people at least.

And while you're at it go come up with other plans like "why don't we just clone Kira Yamato a billyun tiems and make him win all wars without killing pplz?".

What a wonderful idea! After conquering the world I will be sure to identify you and have you honored as the one who inspired me to overthrow all the tyrannies that were constantly slaughtering people in their struggles against one another and replacing them with a world-wide tyranny which will be peaceful because there won't be any other governments to fight against. So what do you think a fair reward show be? Should I make you a duke, a king, a king of kings, a king of kings of kings, or do you want one of the higher titles?

Just kidding. World conquest has already been my plan for some time now.



Lets not forget that for every A you count actually saving more than they kill, there are tenfold more As causing more damage than they prevent if they'd had not tried such a ridiculous plan in the first place (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero) with the same ideas, hundredfold more As simply failing or dying and achieving nothing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HopeSpot) and thousandfold more As who didn't even try in the first place.

Yes, attempts to end war by unifying the world through conquest and/or negotiation can fail. Therefore it is always better to pursue those plans with the minimum of bloodshed so if they fail at least the minimum of lives will have been wasted.

But not trying to unify the world by conquest and/or by peaceful negotiation but just hoping that somehow people in large groups will stop behaving as violently as they did in the past does not seem very sensible to me.

Dragon Ranger
12-06-2009, 01:40 PM
Personally, I do not think Euphemia escaped the Geass until AFTER Lelouch shot her. The second after the bullet hit her, she realized what was going on. This is when she escaped the Geass, but not completely as it still somewhat effected her on her death bed.


she only escaped from it once she passed away

Rolo Vi Britannia
12-10-2009, 01:03 PM
:banghead:

I just started watching Gundam 00, so no comment on that.






Was Euphemia's mother ever mentioned? It is possible that she died or something and that Cornelia raised Euphemia for several years. And she lost Marianne, who was a friend to her and possibly like a mother to her.
Euphemia's fahter didnt want her and treated her like a political tool.
Her long-lost brother treacherously murdered her.
She was forced to go into battle at Narita to make sure that Cornelia did not massacre the JLF and/or the Narita towns people.
her father sent nunally away
She often felt alone when she saw how everybody was willing to do evil things.
She was lead to believe that Nunnaly and Lelouch were dead, which tore her apart for seven years - much longer than Lelouch believed that Nunnally was dead.
She discovered that her brother was actually a psycho that really didnt care much for her anyway
The Japanese hated her despite the fact the her last words were hopes for their happiness.

Here is just one character, Euphemia, who seems to have suffered about as much as Lelouch did. But it took a geass command to make a mass murderer out of her. As long as she had control of herself, she didn't let her suffering turn her vengeful - unlike Lelouch.

1. NO ONE CARES ABOUT EUPHY'S MOTHER!
2. Marianne was not her friend. She merely had her plate on her wall.
3. Charles was never shown treating her poorly.
4. MURDER MURDER MURDER MURDER! Jesus! You love that word. He didn't MURDER her, he defeated her in battle. Don't say, "It wasn't a battle." It was.
5. Oh, "forced to go to Narita." What about how Lelouch had to see all the Japanese people killed mercilessly when he was only ten years old.
6. What the hell does "her father sent Nunnally away." mean?
7. She felt useless, because she wasn't smart. That's all.
8. She was totally over Lelouch and Nunnally.
9. He LOVED her! Are you ****ing blind?
10. She didn't see that they hated her because she was in heaven by that point.

You proved nothing besides that she was a whiny little emo girl. Euphy had no clue what suffering was. She never was abandon. She never was punished. She never lost anything. Lelouch loses his mother, his home, his dear sister(euphy who he loved VERY MUCH), his girlfriend, his brother, and his life. He dies hated by the world he sacrificed himself to save.
I doubt there are any anime characters who suffered as much as him, and are still strong enough to cope with it. I can name two Shin Kanzato and Edward Elric. That's it.
I'm sick of you spamming the CG boards. Either move on or shut up before someone reports you.

proEuphie
12-10-2009, 09:11 PM
not yet completed 12/11/09. Still uncompleted 1230 am Saturday 12/12/09. Still uncompleted Monday morning. still uncompleted Weds. 12/16/09 still unfinished 12/17/09. finally completed 12/20/09 1222 AM.


:banghead:

I just started watching Gundam 00, so no comment on that.







quote=Rolo Vi Britannia;2359661]
1. NO ONE CARES ABOUT EUPHY'S MOTHER!
2. Marianne was not her friend. She merely had her plate on her wall.
3. Charles was never shown treating her poorly.
4. MURDER MURDER MURDER MURDER! Jesus! You love that word. He didn't MURDER her, he defeated her in battle. Don't say, "It wasn't a battle." It was.
5. Oh, "forced to go to Narita." What about how Lelouch had to see all the Japanese people killed mercilessly when he was only ten years old.
6. What the hell does "her father sent Nunnally away." mean?
7. She felt useless, because she wasn't smart. That's all.
8. She was totally over Lelouch and Nunnally.
9. He LOVED her! Are you ****ing blind?
10. She didn't see that they hated her because she was in heaven by that point.

You are responding to points from my post # 214 which were responding to points that +Namiko+ made in her post # 150. Thus each of my points is phrased to refute one of Namiko's points.

1. You say that NO ONE CARES ABOUT EUPHY'S MOTHER!. Perhaps no Code Geass fans care about her. But you can be certain that Cornelia and Euphemia cared abut her. And if she is dead by the time of Code Geass you can be certain that her death was just as traumatic for Euphemia as Marianne's death was for Lelouch.

2. you say that Marianne was not Euphemia's friend. But Euphemia had fond memories of watching the stars with Lelouch, Nunnaly, and Marianne. It seems to me that children who enjoy doing things with their playmates and their playmates's parents think of their playmates's parents as their friends, and are saddened by the deaths of those friends, however those friends actually feel about them.
What does the expression about having her plate on the wall mean? And who is supposed to have had whose plate on the wall?

3. You say that Charles was never seen treating Euphie poorly. I don't think that Charles was ever seen interacting with Euphemia. Many people have said that Charles had no feelings of love for any of his children. You can be certain that the vast majority of children suffer if either of their parents has no love for them. And when the massacre started in episode 22 Charles saw and laughed "He did it! He geassed her!" with amusement. That shows how little concern he had with her well-being, and she is likely to have sensed that over the years.

4. You say:MURDER MURDER MURDER MURDER! Jesus! You love that word. He didn't MURDER her, he defeated her in battle. Don't say, "It wasn't a battle." It was.

I started to respond to this and decided to start a new post, # 63 on page 3 of my thread Euphemia's Murder, in which I point out examples of people murdered in battle. It would be too long to include them as part of this post.
continued 12/16/09

5. This was phrased the way it was because it was a response to a point of +Namiko+'s and thus may be a little weak compared to various things that Lelouch and other characters went though. But remember all the children at Narita who did not see a terrible slaughter because the Britannians did not massacre anybody there. And the reason why they did not slaughter and massacre was probably because Euphemia forced herself to go to witness what was done at Narita and forced herself to be stubborn and insist on going when Cornelia opposed her going.

6. +Namiko+ wrote that "His father sent Nunnally Away", presumably meaning during the period between the two seasons. So I responded to that point by writing that "Her (Euphie's) father sent Nunnally away" meaning that he sent Euphemia's playmates Nunnally and Lelouch to Japan as hostages where they were soon reported killed, when Euphie was only nine. Does that explain the difficult puzzle of what "her father sent Nunnally away." means?

7. Euphemia did feel useless in episode 20. What do you mean that Euphemia wasn't smart? Can you point out any evidence she had a low I.Q.? I suppose you think that she wasn't smart enough to be ruthless and brutal, or something like that. If so, you are wrong; there is no relationship between Evilness Quotient and Intelligence Quotient.

8. Euphemia didn't seem over Lelouch and Nunnally in episodes 19 and 21.

9. You are blind if you think that Lelouch loved Euphemia significantly. He may have loved her enough to be sad for her death from time to time, but he didn't love her enough to not kill her when he had no good and humane reason to kill her and many practical and sensible reasons to keep her alive.

10. I admit that Euphemia never actually knew that the Japanese hated her. But you are going into treacherous waters when you claim that she went to heaven before the the Japanese started hating her. Do you know what proof of the existence of an afterlife would do to ethical standards and how much it might complicate discussions of right and wrong? In the thread Lelouch(Zero) - Villain or Hero of Justice? posts 55, 56, 57 and 65 by +Namiko+ and myself contain a discussion of that problem.



You proved nothing besides that she was a whiny little emo girl. Euphy had no clue what suffering was. She never was abandon. She never was punished. She never lost anything. Lelouch loses his mother, his home, his dear sister(euphy who he loved VERY MUCH), his girlfriend, his brother, and his life. He dies hated by the world he sacrificed himself to save.
I doubt there are any anime characters who suffered as much as him, and are still strong enough to cope with it. I can name two Shin Kanzato and Edward Elric. That's it.
I'm sick of you spamming the CG boards. Either move on or shut up before someone reports you.

Euphemia didn't seem very whiny to me. I don't remember her complaining about anything.

You say that she never lost anything. I say that she lost a lot when a member of her family was murdered and her two closest half siblings and playmates were exiled and then reported killed when she was only nine.

Your statement that Lelouch lost his dear sister (euphy who he loved VERY MUCH) reminded me of child-murdering hypocritical Merovingian kings Clothaire I and Clothaire II and I started to discuss their crimes here, but for reasons of length I made a post # 64 in my thread Euphemia's murder discussing their crimes and lies.

Let's just say that they killed children without any need to.

Euphemia would have been easy for Lelouch to capture alive. If confined she would have been no more dangerous than anyone else, so there was no good or humane reason, such as protecting the Japanese from her, to prefer killing her to capturing her. Thus there was no ethical justification for killing her. Thus killing her was murder.

I say that anime fans who got used to thinking of Lelouch as a good person because he was the protagonist of Code Geass and so forgave him for murdering Euphemia when he had no good or humane reason to kill her, have taken a giant step toward lowering their ethical standards so much that if someone ever made animes in which Clothaire I and Clothaire II were the protagonists they would forgive the Clothaires for their utterly needless murders of children.

When Lelouch met with Euphie in episode 22 he said that he was going to make her shoot him, thus sparking a riot what would start his revolution. Did Lelouch imagine that the angry Japanese, rioting and starting the revolution, would content themselves with booing Euphie and throwing rotten tomatoes at her? No, he imagined that they would try to kill her. And apparently he didn't care if they killed her or not or even wanted them to kill her.

Your statement that Lelouch suffered a lot by losing his girlfriend is also dubious. In the first season Kallen became a member of the student council and got to know the other members. But at least once Kallen was about to kill one of the other members when she suspected her secret was about to be exposed. When the Black Knights took over Ashford Academy during the Black Rebellion Kallen thought that she hoped that the other student council members got away -- despite the fact she had been prepared to kill at least one of them recently. Lelouch thought that with the Black Knights guarding Ashford Nunnally would be safe. Lelouch did not think about the safety of any of his other friends, including his girlfriend Shirley. So he was not as worried about Shirley's safety as someone who just weeks ago might have killed Shirley to keep her secret safe!

Yes, Lelouch might have been upset when Shirley was killed by Rollo. But during the Black Rebellion he was not shown thinking about her safety. He didn't love her enough to think that having the Black Knights at Ashford would protect her as well as protecting Nunnally.

I think that Lelouch loved Euphemia, Shirely, and Nunnally enough to feel mild regret over needlessly killing Euphemia, and wild grief when Shirley was killed, and terrible grief when he thought that Nunnally was dead. But I don't think that he loved any of them enough to change his actions while they were alive to reduce the probability that they would be killed as a result of his actions. Pointing a gun at Euphemia and pulling the trigger without any sensible or humane reason proves that point in regard to her. As for Shirley and Nunnally, once Lelouch gained the power of geass he could control where they lived and where he would start his rebellions against Britannia. So starting a rebellion in the same country and the same city as Shirley and Nunnally lived seems like reckless endangerment of their lives.

Lelouch's love was worthless if it was strong enough to make him regret the deaths of his loved ones after they were dead but not strong enough to keep him from endangering and even killing them. It was a weak and useless kind of love, strong enough to make him feel guild and sorrow but not strong enough to protect those that he loved from his actions.

Here are some paragraphs you chose not to quote from my post number 214: I am certain that many of the countless millions of unnamed extras in Code Geass had much more tragic lives with much more suffering than Lelouch did. Many persons whose fathers abandoned their mothers before they were born, whose mothers died in childbirth or abandoned them to orphanages when they were born or who neglected them terribly. They were passed from foster family to foster family or largely ignored in orphanages Finally they found loving families to adopt them, but just as they were settling in their new families were viciously murdered by crazed cultists or slaughtered in a Britannian invasion or the Black Rebellion or killed in an earthquake or other natural disaster and they found their way back to orphanages.

Then new families found them and they overcome their fears that they would jinx the new family and found brief happiness before their new homes in Tokyo or Pendragon were destroyed by F.R.E.I.J.A. They were instantly vaporized or their shattered bodies were pinned under rubble and their struggles could not get them free as the raging fires came closer and closer and___or they survived the bombing and wandered around in a daze until radiation sickness killed them.

I read that tens of millions were killed in Tokyo and Pendragon. So many of the victims must have had such tragic lives before being killed at the age of fourteen, or twelve, or ten, or younger.

My point # 4 from post # 146 in Did Euphemia escape from her Geass Before Lelouch Shot her?

4) And what to you mean that Lelouch suffered a lot during the series? What about Suzaku?

He certainly suffered a lot more from the death of Euphemia than Lelouch did. For the whole year between the first and second seasons Lelouch did not remember anything from his past life and thus did not feel any guilt, remorse, or regret, for killing Euphemia. He even believed the official Brittannian story that she had ordered the massacre and been executed by the imperial government. If he ever thought about her it was as a notorious criminal who he didn't know and got what she deserved.

While Suzaku, depending on how much he loved Euphemia, would not have let a day, or maybe an hour, go by without thinking of her with sorrow. I wonder how many times during that year he cursed himself for obediently bringing Lelouch back alive, instead of torturing hm to death in bloody vengeance.

Suzaku turned out to be so great a failure at the whole "get bloody vengeance on those who kill your loved ones" thing that eventually he had to become a henchman of his enemy, helping him in his plans in return for the promise of being able to kill him when he wanted to be killed. People who want revenge on their enemies all agree its no fun to kill them when they want you to do it.

And I think that Nunnally suffered more than Lelouch from their separation for a year between the first and second seasons, since Lelouch could not even remember that he had a sister Nunnally.

And for the year between the first and second seasons, which probably lasted much longer than both seasons combined, Lelouch was punished for rebellion, treason, and murder by living the life of a wealthy, popular, high school student. What a fiendish punishment! What cruelty! How barbaric!

I have seen Fullmetal Alchemist and I only hope that many of the fans of that show are as disgusted by your comparison of Lelouch and Edward Elric as I am.

Rolo Vi Britannia
12-12-2009, 12:49 PM
not yet completed 12/11/09. Still uncompleted 1230 am Saturday 12/12/09.



You are responding to points from my post # 214 which were responding to points that +Namiko+ made in her post # 150. Thus each of my points is phrased to refute one of Namiko's points.

1. You say that NO ONE CARES ABOUT EUPHY'S MOTHER!. Perhaps no Code Geass fans care about her. But you can be certain that Cornelia and Euphemia cared abut her. And if she is dead by the time of Code Geass you can be certain that her death was just as traumatic for Euphemia as Marianne's death was for Lelouch.
2. you say that Marianne was not Euphemia's friend. But Euphemia had fond memories of watching the stars with Lelouch, Nunnaly, and Marianne. It seems to me that children who enjoy doing things with their playmates and their playmates's parents think of their playmates's parents as their friends, and are saddened by the deaths of those friends, however those friends actually feel about them.
What does the expression about having her plate on the wall mean? And who is supposed to have had whose plate on the wall?
3. You say that Charles was never seen treating Euphie poorly. I don't think that Charles was ever seen interacting with Euphemia. Many people have said that Charles had no feelings of love for any of his children. You can be certain that the vast majority of children suffer if either of their parents has no love for them. And when the massacre started in episode 22 Charles saw and laughed "He did it! He geassed her!" with amusement. That shows how little concern he had with her well-being, and she is likely to have sensed that over the years.
4. You say:MURDER MURDER MURDER MURDER! Jesus! You love that word. He didn't MURDER her, he defeated her in battle. Don't say, "It wasn't a battle." It was.
Let's take the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, a historic battle. The novel The Prince of India, or why Constantinople Fell by Lew Wallace has it's climax at the Fall of Constantinople, a real battle. The protagonist is The Wandering Jew of medieval legend, condemned to walk the Earth until the second coming of Christ. He quarrels with Emperor Constantine and helps Sultan Mehmet II capture Constantinople. And in the final assault he and his henchman, a ferocious warrior, pass through the fighting until they come to Constantine and The wandering Jew orders his henchman to kill Constantine.
That certainly seems like an act of murder to me, even though it takes place in a battle.
to be continued
I plan to add a lot of examples of historic persons murdered during battles.

5. This was phrased the way it was because it was a response to a point of +Namiko+'s and thus may be a little weak compared to various things that Lelouch and other characters went though. But remember all the children at Narita who did not see a terrible slaughter because the Britannians did not massacre anybody there. And the reason why they did not slaughter and massacre was probably because Euphemia forced herself to go to witness what was done at Narita and forced herself to be stubborn and insist on going when Cornelia opposed her going.

6. +Namiko+ wrote that "His father sent Nunnally Away", presumably meaning during the period between the two seasons. So I responded to that point by writing that "Her (Euphie's) father sent Nunnally away" meaning that he sent Euphemia's playmates Nunnally and Lelouch to Japan as hostages where they were soon reported killed, when Euphie was only nine. Does that explain the difficult puzzle of what "her father sent Nunnally away." means?

7. Euphemia did feel useless in episode 20. What do you mean that Euphemia wasn't smart? Can you point out any evidence she had a low I.Q.? I suppose you think that she wasn't smart enough to be ruthless and brutal, or something like that. If so, you are wrong; there is no relationship between Evilness Quotient and Intelligence Quotient.

8. Euphemia didn't seem over Lelouch and Nunnally in episodes 19 and 21.

9. You are blind if you think that Lelouch loved Euphemia significantly.

10. I admit that Euphemia never actually knew that she the Japanese hated her. But you are going into treacherous waters when you claim that she went to heaven before the the Japanese started hating her. Do you know what the existence of an afterlife would do to ethical standards and how much it might complicate discussions of right and wrong? In the thread Lelouch(Zero) - Villain or Hero of Justice? posts 55, 56, 57 and 65 by +Namiko+ and myself contain a discussion of that problem.




Euphemia didn't seem very whiny to me. I don't remember her complaining about anything.

You say that she never lost anything. I say that she lost a lot when a member of her family was murdered and her two closest half siblings and playmates were exiled and then reported killed when she was only nine.

Your statement that Lelouch lost his dear sister (euphy who he loved VERY MUCH) reminds me of a statement that the Frankish King Clothaire II made in 612 when he condemned the aged Queen Brunhilda to a horrible death. He said that she had caused a feud in the Merovingian Dynasty which had resulted in the deaths of ten kings and princes. Which was true. Except that Clothaire's mother Fredegunda had really stated the feud by murdering Brunhilda's sister.

And except that he, Clothaire II, had himself ordered the deaths of the last two victims in the royal family, Brunhilda's little great grandsons. If Clothaire considered the deaths of those two boys part of the terrible tragedy of the feud and a part of the reason to execute Brunhilda, why didn't he simply not have them killed? He could have had their long hair cut short and then forced them to become monks and confined them in a monastery as several other Merovingian kings and princes were.

Euphemia would have been easy for Lelouch to capture alive. If confined she would have been no more dangerous than anyone else, so there was not good or humane reason, such as protecting the Japanese from her, to prefer killing her to capturing her. Thus there was no ethical justification for killing her. Thus killing her was murder.

When Lelouch met with Euphie in episode 22 he said that he was going to make her shoot him, thus sparking a riot what would start his revolution. Did Lelouch imagine that the angry Japanese, rioting and starting the revolution, would content themselves with booing Euphie and throwing rotten tomatoes at her? No, he imagined that they would try to kill her. And apparently he didn't care if they killed her or not or even wanted them to kill her.

Your statement that Lelouch suffered a lot by losing his girlfriend is also dubious. In the first season Kallen became a member of the student council and got to know the other members. But at least once Kallen was about to kill one of the other members when she suspected her secret was about to be exposed. When the Black Knights took over Ashford Academy during the Black Rebellion Kallen thought that she hoped that the other student council members got away -- despite the fact she had been prepared to kill at least one of them recently. Lelouch thought that with the Black Knights guarding Ashford Nunnally would be safe. Lelouch did not think about the safety of any of his other friends, including his girlfriend Shirley. So he was not as worried about Shirley's safety as someone who just weeks ago might have killed Shirley to keep her secret safe!

Here are some paragraphs you chose not to quote from my post number 214: I am certain that many of the countless millions of unnamed extras in Code Geass had much more tragic lives with much more suffering than Lelouch did. Many persons whose fathers abandoned their mothers before they were born, whose mothers died in childbirth or abandoned them to orphanages when they were born or who neglected them terribly. They were passed from foster family to foster family or largely ignored in orphanages Finally they found loving families to adopt them, but just as they were settling in their new families were viciously murdered by crazed cultists or slaughtered in a Britannian invasion or the Black Rebellion or killed in an earthquake or other natural disaster and they found their way back to orphanages.

Then new families found them and they overcome their fears that they would jinx the new family and found brief happiness before their new homes in Tokyo or Pendragon were destroyed by F.R.E.I.J.A. They were instantly vaporized or their shattered bodies were pinned under rubble and their struggles could not get them free as the raging fires came closer and closer and___or they survived the bombing and wandered around in a daze until radiation sickness killed them.

I read that tens of millions were killed in Tokyo and Pendragon. So many of the victims must have had such tragic lives before being killed at the age of fourteen, or twelve, or ten, or younger.


I give up. You've done nothing but make me hate Euphemia. Congrats troll, you did your job. I pretty much guessed that you're a Euphy hater making fun of her fans. All you proved to me is that you are to insane to tell he difference between reality and fiction and don't realize good entertainment. Instead you try to fill it with logic and 'right and wrong". I'm finished you and your complete spam. It's ridiculous.


You're stupid if you think that Lelouch didn't care about Shirley. But I guess you never watched her death, huh?

I don't feel like explaining how blind YOU are if you don't understand Lelouch. I stand by my last post. Someone really should report you for spamming.
Goodbye you overly offensive *****. :banghead: :mad: :banghead:

Dragon Ranger
12-12-2009, 04:20 PM
too much BS to read

Sr Machinehead
12-13-2009, 04:55 AM
ugh i could only read the first couple paragraphs of that word wall. and lelouche had feelings for everyone who died .both euphemia and shirley dying were inconveniences. heck he was even angered and saddened by both events. oh yeah and to answer the question of the topic euphemia only weakened the geass when she was with suzaku but never stopped. lelouche is a brittanian and was thus not in the danger of being shot.

Dragon Ranger
12-13-2009, 05:10 AM
jesus lay off the long paragraphs

Sr Machinehead
12-13-2009, 06:01 AM
what mines barely a couple sentences. its not as bad as you make it seem.

Rolo Vi Britannia
12-13-2009, 02:54 PM
what mines barely a couple sentences. its not as bad as you make it seem.

I think he was referring to proeuphie, otherwise he would have quoted you.

Dragon Ranger
12-13-2009, 03:10 PM
I think he was referring to proeuphie, otherwise he would have quoted you.


sr machinehead is not that bright

Sr Machinehead
12-13-2009, 11:14 PM
sorry was going by the fact that mine was a little long and he already made a comment on proeuphie before my post.

Rolo Vi Britannia
02-10-2010, 10:33 PM
Let me resolve this before hand. I remembered you bringing this up when I posted about Anew on the Mecha Ethics board, so I looked back at this. I decided to post about this and resolve the fight about Gundam 00 on this thread. Let me tell you. Don't respond to this post. You can quote it and post it in the MECHA ETHICS board, or post it in the Gundam subforum (lol)


So you seem to be saying that the original plan was to destroy the lab. Unless Allelujah and the rest of Celestrial being thought the lab was temporarily empty due to an intermission since the last class was "graduated" and before a new class was assembled, the plan to destroy the lab was what I would call evil.
It was never explianed in the series if they could "graduate" since there were only two super soldiers in the series. Soma and Allelujah. I don't think it crossed their minds, or Veda's quantum processor because they recieve their orders and mission plans through a super computer.



Doesn't Celestrial Being employ any old fashioned infantry? If they had any they could fly some in with a Gundam as an escort, send the infantry to defeat any guards, take everyone else prisoners back n the infantry's ship, and the gundam could blow up the lab.
No, they don't.



And if Celestrial Being doesn't have any infantry of its own it might be able borrow some from a friendly nation it has helped.
None of the nations liked them. They attacked both sides most the time, so no one was friendly.


Or even swoop down on an isolated enemy unit, threaten them with instant death unless they surrender, take a few as hostages, and send the rest to capture the lab and liberate the children and release them when they are done.
That would have been far to dangerous for Meister they sent in. Not to mention, I can't imagine Veda recommending that.


I don't see the complex conundrum.
That's because you don't get it.


Since it is obviously unwise to send someone emotionally involved on a mission the leaders of Infernal Being - I mean Celestrial Being -- should not have sent Allelujah on the mission. And if no other Gundam master except Allelujah could be induced to go then obviously destroying the lab which produced super soldiers did not seem like a high priority to anyone except Allelujah. And if so it was clearly not something worth killing even one child for.
The only person who would have hesitated was Allelujah. He was actually the kindest one. You have
Setsuna: Who's kindhearted, but let's not forget his was in a terrorist group when he was ten and even killed his own parents.
Lockon: Who is the most mature one. To be honest, I don't know how'd he'd react.
Tieria: Who would have killed them just because Veda said to.


Terrorists or not, Celestrial Being seems too evil to be worthy protagonists of a story. And the same goes for the Black Knights and the Britannians (except for Euphemia) in Code Geass.
If you'd actually watched the series, you'd know they were all good people. Well, except T-chan(Tieria) but he changes after episode 23.

I don't understand why you try to look into the morals of shows. Why not just enjoy it.

In Gundam 00 there are far worse characters. Like Ali-Al Saachez. He was the leader of the KPSA and made Setsuna kill his OWN parents and become a soldier telling him that God would not accept him unless he did this. He killed Lockon's family, or ordered their deaths. Kills an innocent girl in the series. Works for the bad guys in season 2 kills one of the best characters in season one. AND kills the only Innovator that's not PURE evil.
Or maybe you could hate Ribbons Almark for being totally evil. Don't even get me started on the Trinities...

Okay. Gundam time over. Code Geass time, resume.

Disciple-of-Jashin
02-22-2010, 01:12 PM
I always thought Euphemia was just close to death and Geass ends at death.

kimi no kioku
02-23-2010, 06:27 AM
I always thought Euphemia was just close to death and Geass ends at death.
The Geass command always ends when it becomes impossible for the person to complete it. She was to weak to fight anymore, so it ended.

proEuphie
02-23-2010, 09:12 PM
The Geass command always ends when it becomes impossible for the person to complete it. She was to weak to fight anymore, so it ended.

The view that Euphemia was too weak to kill and thus the geass ceased to control her has been obsolete for seven months, since my post # 68 above 08/01/09 and my post # 83 above 08/05/09.

I think that I make a very strong case that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon in my post # 105 and 106, both dated 08/08/09 and on page # 5 of this thread. I believe that I make a very strong case that Euphemia defeated her geass command while talking to Lelouch before he shot her in my posts # 109 "When Ignorance Really Was Bliss" and # 112, both 08/09/09 and on page 5.

My post # 110 "Do The Eyes Have It? # 2" 08/09/09 on page # 5 of this thread is also important.

proEuphie
02-23-2010, 09:30 PM
I always thought Euphemia was just close to death and Geass ends at death.

See my post # 230.

proEuphie
02-23-2010, 09:39 PM
Personally, I do not think Euphemia escaped the Geass until AFTER Lelouch shot her. The second after the bullet hit her, she realized what was going on. This is when she escaped the Geass, but not completely as it still somewhat effected her on her death bed.

se my posts listed in my post # 230.

wolfgirl90
02-23-2010, 10:23 PM
The view that Euphemia was too weak to kill and thus the geass ceased to control her has been obsolete for seven months, since my post # 68 above 08/01/09 and my post # 83 above 08/05/09.

Obsolete? You have yet to prove me or anyone else wrong about that, so don't go patting yourself on the back as if you have won anything (except the stupid troll medal).:rolleyes:

You say that Euphemia escaped the Geass before Lelouch shot her. However, the Geass took control of her while she was in the sickbay, three minutes before she died. One can't "escape the control of the Geass" without breaking it. Euphemia clearly didn't break it because the Geass CAME BACK while she was in the sickbay.

Oh, and just because she didn't try to kill Suzaku while in the sickbay is NOT proof that she wasn't under the influence of the Geass (as she clearly was). She noticed that Suzaku was Japanese, realized what was happening (because of the horrible thoughts she was having) and either she pushed it back or the Geass faded (but she clearly didn't break the Geass before getting shot).

There is already a rule that a Geass fades if one is not physically capable of carrying out the order (this has been established on more than a number of occasions, and is also listed in the Official Code Geass Guidebook as a rule for Lelouch's Geass). Being a couple of minutes away from DYING qualifies as something that might prevent someone from being physically capable from carrying out an order (or from doing anything other than talking in a very low whisper).

Your move, troll.:rolleyes:

Hollow Lelouch
03-13-2010, 05:55 PM
http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq290/Tsubasahawkeye/failed_2.jpg
Seriously.
lol, I'll probably bet down repped for this. :)

wolfgirl90
03-14-2010, 04:37 PM
http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq290/Tsubasahawkeye/failed_2.jpg
Seriously.
lol, I'll probably bet down repped for this. :)

By whom? You are pretty much on the same side of the fence as everybody else here; proEuphie is really all by herself.:cool:

The Butcher
03-14-2010, 05:08 PM
How come even before I went to this thread,I knew Proeuphie started this?

Also,a big one-sided aguement came up?

Dante K
03-15-2010, 05:05 PM
The view that Euphemia was too weak to kill and thus the geass ceased to control her has been obsolete for seven months, since my post # 68 above 08/01/09 and my post # 83 above 08/05/09.


Wow. You sound so incredibly arrogant there.

And I think it should be obvious that when a character defeating Geass makes for a dramatic effect that adds to the series, the writers would put it in there. But when they want her to still be under the Geass for the sake of consistency, that will also be in there. Even if the two would alternate over and over - because making a good show that people will watch would be their first concern.

...And by the way, it is obvious that she only comes out of it when she can't kill anymore.


I think that I make a very strong case that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon in my post # 105 and 106, both dated 08/08/09 and on page # 5 of this thread. I believe that I make a very strong case that Euphemia defeated her geass command while talking to Lelouch before he shot her in my posts # 109 "When Ignorance Really Was Bliss" and # 112, both 08/09/09 and on page 5.

My post # 110 "Do The Eyes Have It? # 2" 08/09/09 on page # 5 of this thread is also important.

But more importantly, where is your life, proE? Where is your life? Where is your life? If only Euphemia was here to save you.

proEuphie
03-16-2010, 10:37 PM
Oops! I accidentally erased the quote boxes.

Dante K: "Wow. You sound so incredibly arrogant there.

And I think it should be obvious that when a character defeating Geass makes for a dramatic effect that adds to the series, the writers would put it in there. But when they want her to still be under the Geass for the sake of consistency, that will also be in there. Even if the two would alternate over and over - because making a good show that people will watch would be their first concern."

The episode seems to clearly show Euphemia defeating her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon.

Dante K:"...And by the way, it is obvious that she only comes out of it when she can't kill anymore."

No, it can't possibly be obvious that she only comes out of it when she can't kill anymore.

Because Euphemia came out of it when she could still talk. Euphemia came out of it when she could still give orders that might be obeyed. Euphemia came out of it when she still had the power to order Suzaku killed. Euphemia came out of it when she still had the power to order the Avalon to destroy the nearest Japanese ghetto.

The idea that Euphemia could only kill by physically picking up an gun and shooting people with it, or stabbing them, or strangling them, or punching and kicking them, or using her bodily physical force in any other way, is silly. Euphemia killed far more people by ordering other people to kill than by killing them herself.

So I think that I made a major contribution by pointing out that people had just been assuming that the geass left Euphemia alone because she was too weak to strangle Suzaku to death, and that it was silly to ignore all the hundreds or thousands of people that she had killed by ordering other people to kill, and who the geass command remembered her killing that way.

proEuphie
03-16-2010, 10:51 PM
Obsolete? You have yet to prove me or anyone else wrong about that, so don't go patting yourself on the back as if you have won anything (except the stupid troll medal).:rolleyes:

When can I expect delivery?


You say that Euphemia escaped the Geass before Lelouch shot her. However, the Geass took control of her while she was in the sickbay, three minutes before she died. One can't "escape the control of the Geass" without breaking it. Euphemia clearly didn't break it because the Geass CAME BACK while she was in the sickbay.

The title of my thread is "Did Euphemia Escape From the CONTROL of Her Geass Command Before Lelouch Shot Her?"

I contend that Euphemia achieved a victory like Cannae or Austerlitz over her Geass Command right before Lelouch shot her and again in the sickbay of he Avalon. Those were less than absolutely total victories but still very great and decisive victories. Sure the geass command continued to fight back and try to regain control of Euphemia (thus her eyes were still red) in the seconds before Lelouch shot her. Yes the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia in the sickbay of the Avalon. But the power of the geass was no longer enough to make her do anything.

I call that escaping from the control of the geass command.

And if Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon with just seconds to spare before ordering Suzaku killed, that would be an incredibly fortunate coincidence. Unless it was not a coincidence. Unless it was inevitable that Euphemia would be able to defeate her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon by simply instantly remembering how she had defeated it earlier, after many minutes of subconscious struggle, right before Lelouch shot her.

And as I pointed out months ago there is no proof that Nunnally's blindness geass did not try and fail to come back from time to time, or even that it might have sometimes succeeded for seconds or minutes at a time when Nunnally was off screen and after the series ended. But nobody would used that possibility to argue that Nunnaly failed to break her Blindness geass.



Oh, and just because she didn't try to kill Suzaku while in the sickbay is NOT proof that she wasn't under the influence of the Geass (as she clearly was). She noticed that Suzaku was Japanese, realized what was happening (because of the horrible thoughts she was having) and either she pushed it back or the Geass faded (but she clearly didn't break the Geass before getting shot).

There is already a rule that a Geass fades if one is not physically capable of carrying out the order (this has been established on more than a number of occasions, and is also listed in the Official Code Geass Guidebook as a rule for Lelouch's Geass). Being a couple of minutes away from DYING qualifies as something that might prevent someone from being physically capable from carrying out an order (or from doing anything other than talking in a very low whisper).

Being about to die might prevent someone from being physically able to break someone's neck with karate but it does not make them physically unable to command and kill.

I quote my post # 238:

No, it can't possibly be obvious that she only comes out of it when she can't kill anymore.

Because Euphemia came out of it when she could still talk. Euphemia came out of it when she could still give orders that might be obeyed. Euphemia came out of it when she still had the power to order Suzaku killed. Euphemia came out of it when she still had the power to order the Avalon to destroy the nearest Japanese ghetto.

The idea that Euphemia could only kill by physically picking up an gun and shooting people with it, or stabbing them, or strangling them, or punching and kicking them, or using her bodily physical force in any other way, is silly. Euphemia killed far more people by ordering other people to kill than by killing them herself.

So I think that I made a major contribution by pointing out that people had just been assuming that the geass left Euphemia alone because she was too weak to strangle Suzaku to death, and that it was silly to ignore all the hundreds or thousands of people that she had killed by ordering other people to kill, and who the geass command remembered her killing that way.

So you claim that in Britannia being unable to speak above a very low whisper disqualifies someone from being able to command? It seems to me that if a young and beautiful dying princess ordered a Britannian crew to slaughter some more Japanese people, something which apparently they enjoyed doing anyway, the feebleness of her voice as death neared would only make them more eager to obey her last orders and avenge her death on those who dared to be born into the same nationality that they assumed that her killer was a member of.

The Truth in Blue
03-16-2010, 11:32 PM
The title of my thread is "Did Euphemia Escape From the CONTROL of Her Geass Command Before Lelouch Shot Her?"

No, it's actually:
Did Euphemia escape from te controal of her geass before lelouch shote her?h

I get this image of you frantically pounding the keys, in a panic, trying to post this. Asking this question is like asking: "if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
No one will be able or willing to answer it. What I noticed was that the doctors didn't even try to save Euphy, therefore it's THEIR FAULT SHE DIED!

Expect proEuphie to post another thread about what I just said.

I'm sorry, my fellow human beings, I just committed heresy

Hollow Lelouch
03-16-2010, 11:44 PM
By whom? You are pretty much on the same side of the fence as everybody else here; proEuphie is really all by herself.:cool:
I've been to some forums where I was down repped for bashing trolls. By the ones fighting with the trolls for that matter!

Rolo Vi Britannia
03-17-2010, 07:05 AM
I've been to some forums where I was down repped for bashing trolls. By the ones fighting with the trolls for that matter!
Seriously? That's pretty stupid.

wolfgirl90
03-17-2010, 02:59 PM
When can I expect delivery?

Depends. Are you acknowledging that you are a stupid troll?:rolleyes:


The title of my thread is "Did Euphemia Escape From the CONTROL of Her Geass Command Before Lelouch Shot Her?"

I am aware of the title. However, my point is that one can't escape the control of the Geass without breaking it. One might be able to resist the Geass for a bit, but if the Geass COMES BACK, then that means that it wasn't broken which ALSO means that one NEVER escaped its control in the first place.:rolleyes::rolleyes:


I call that escaping from the control of the geass command.

Unfortunately, that doesn't refute what I already said about the Geass rules. The rules state that a Geass command can't force someone to do anything that they are not physically or mentally able to do. Since Euphemia was dying, the Geass could have easily have faded away OR Euphemia could have pushed it back. YOU need to prove to me that the former never happened and that the latter is the only thing that is true.

Basically, in order to win the argument, you need to not only prove yourself right but ALSO prove me wrong (using evidence from the show). You have yet to do that.:rolleyes:


Unless it was inevitable that Euphemia would be able to defeate her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon by simply instantly remembering how she had defeated it earlier, after many minutes of subconscious struggle, right before Lelouch shot her.

Defeating the Geass equals breaking it. The Geass came back while she in the sickbay. Therefore, Euphemia never broke the Geass. Since you are the only person having that "Euphemia-broke-the-Geass" opinion (and since you are a dumb troll that I am no longer taking seriously), I not inclined to believe anything you say.:rolleyes:


But nobody would used that possibility to argue that Nunnaly failed to break her Blindness geass.

Of course not, because there is no proof that that happened. Like I have told you, because Code Geass is a limited universe (like all cartoons), you MUST use proof FROM THE SHOW in order to prove your point. You CANNOT use unproven and unsupported assumptions of YOUR OWN to prove YOUR point. That is a logical fallacy and it makes your point moot (now you need to prove to me that Nunnally did regain her eyesight from time to time using evidence from the show). We have gone through this.:rolleyes::rolleyes:


So you claim that in Britannia being unable to speak above a very low whisper disqualifies someone from being able to command?

Since I never made that claim, what you said after it is also moot. But whatever...:rolleyes:

When Euphemia was in the sickbay, the Geass appeared but only for a few seconds. During those seconds, she really only said a few of sentences: "Suzaku, you're Japanese, right? No...I mustn't. I can't even think of such a thing. No, please." Immediately after she said that, she either pushed it back OR the Geass faded as per the rules. She was fighting the Geass pretty much the whole time that was active while she was in the sickbay (which was only a few seconds), so no, I do not think that she would have been able to give an order to follow her Geass command during that time.

Of course, like I have said before, the ONLY reason why Euphemia didn't issue an order while in the sickbay was because Sunrise made sure that that was the case. If have a problem with it, take it up WITH THEM. By the way, you haven't done that yet, have you?:rolleyes::rolleyes:


I've been to some forums where I was down repped for bashing trolls. By the ones fighting with the trolls for that matter!

Well, while I don't understand why you were down repped by the ones fighting the trolls in the first place, I kinda understand why you were (in a general sense). On most forums, even AF, it is against the rules to bait trolls, even the most annoying ones. If you say something or do something in order to set a troll (or anyone really) off, then you are baiting, which is against the rules. I do not know what bashing you were doing, but baiting usually causes people to get down repped, not the bashing itself.

proEuphie
03-17-2010, 08:46 PM
In post # 239 I wrote:
The title of my thread is "Did Euphemia Escape From the CONTROL of Her Geass Command Before Lelouch Shot Her?"

I contend that Euphemia achieved a victory like Cannae or Austerlitz over her Geass Command right before Lelouch shot her and again in the sickbay of he Avalon. Those were less than absolutely total victories but still very great and decisive victories. Sure the geass command continued to fight back and try to regain control of Euphemia (thus her eyes were still red) in the seconds before Lelouch shot her. Yes the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia in the sickbay of the Avalon. But the power of the geass was no longer enough to make her do anything.

I call that escaping from the control of the geass command.

And wolfgirl90 replied in post # 243 with:


I am aware of the title. However, my point is that one can't escape the control of the Geass without breaking it. One might be able to resist the Geass for a bit, but if the Geass COMES BACK, then that means that it wasn't broken which ALSO means that one NEVER escaped its control in the first place.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You are just playing with words. You claim that only total, instant, constant, and eternal victory is any kind of victory.

You must have seen many movies and tv shows were someone is possessed, or hypnotized, or under some kind of mind control. And in many of them he struggles against the control and emerges from it briefly, permanently, or on and off.

If a character breaks free of mind control for 15 seconds and gives the hero vital help, he can be said to have escaped the mind control for those fifteen seconds.

Euphemia almost certainly escaped from the control of her geass command for several seconds before Lelouch shot her, because she had just lost her nightmare and here was her brother with two nightmares right in front of her with great potential to help or hinder carrying out her task and she didn't ask him about his intentions.

And I think that it is almost equally certain that her victory would have been permanent despite all attempts the geass command might make to regain control of her. Because when the geass command tried to take control of her in the sickbay she defeated it instantly.

So I say that her instant defeat of the attempt by the geass command to regain control of her in the sickbay only proves how easy it now was for her to defeat it each and every time it would try to regain control of her.


Unfortunately, that doesn't refute what I already said about the Geass rules. The rules state that a Geass command can't force someone to do anything that they are not physically or mentally able to do. Since Euphemia was dying, the Geass could have easily have faded away OR Euphemia could have pushed it back. YOU need to prove to me that the former never happened and that the latter is the only thing that is true.

The geass rules offer one possible explanation of why the geass command didn't make Euphemia kill Suzaku or have the Avalon destroy the nearest Japanese Ghetto. But since we are discussing another possible explanation, you cannot use the existence of that one possible explanation to disprove the correctness of another possible explanation. instead the explanation which seems most consistent with the facts is more likely to be the correct one.

It is impossible to prove a negative (to absolutely disprove the idea that the geass command simply gave up), and so by your ideas it is impossible for be to prove a positive, that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon.

But Euphemia could still talk for many seconds or even a few minutes after the geass command ceased its activity. So Euphemia had enough time to give a simple order like "Kill Suzaku" or "Destroy the nearest Eleven ghetto", or even a more complex order with several sentences, between the time the geass command tried to take control of her and the time that she died.

That indicates that it is almost certain that the geass command did not give up trying to control Euphemia because of it's false belief that she was too weak to kill, but because Euphemia defeated it almost instantly.

That is not the absolute proof that you unreasonably demand but is is enough to make unbiased persons think that Euphemia almost certainly defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon.


Basically, in order to win the argument, you need to not only prove yourself right but ALSO prove me wrong (using evidence from the show). You have yet to do that.:rolleyes:

The attempt of the geass command to regain control of Euphemia in the sickbay and it's failure just in time to save Suzaku is many times more likely to be an almost inevitable result of certain dramatic elements of the plot than it is to be some random, meaningless event.

If the geass command just happened to run out of geass energy to control Euphemia just in the nick of time to save Suzaku that would be an incredible coinicidence and a major weakness of the story.

Since Euphemia obviously still could talk and give commands for seconds or minutes after the geass command ceased trying to control her, we can deduce that if the geass command gave up because it believed that Euphemia was too weak to kill -- despite having made her give orders just minutes or hours earlier that made other people kill hundreds or thousands of Japanese people -- that would mean that Suzaku was saved by the incredible stupidity of the geass command. Which would be a major plot weakness.

So that leaves Euphemia defeating her geass command when it tried to regain control of her in the sickbay of the Avalon. Which is a much more reasonable and dramatic explanation for Suzaku's survival.

But it would be an incredible coincidence if Euphemia instantly defeated her geass command just in the nick of time to save Suzaku when it tried to regain control in the sickbay of the Avalon. How could she possibly instantly find a way to defeat her geass command when it had controlled her for minutes or hours before? That would be a major plot weakness.

But if Euphemia had defeated her geass command before, she could instantly remember how she did it before. thus she could instantly defeat her geass command the next time. Thus Euphemia must have defeated her geass command while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.

So, in order for Code Geass to be a well written tv show, Euphemia had to defeat her geass command while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.




Defeating the Geass equals breaking it. The Geass came back while she in the sickbay. Therefore, Euphemia never broke the Geass. Since you are the only person having that "Euphemia-broke-the-Geass" opinion (and since you are a dumb troll that I am no longer taking seriously), I not inclined to believe anything you say.:rolleyes:

But I say that her instant defeat of the attempt by the geass command to regain control of her in the sickbay only proves how easy it now was for her to defeat it each and every time it would try to regain control of her.

And I my text right above your quote that I am replying to is a logical demonstration that Euphemia had to defeat her geass command for Code Geass to be a well written show.

In post # 239 I wrote:

And as I pointed out months ago there is no proof that Nunnally's blindness geass did not try and fail to come back from time to time, or even that it might have sometimes succeeded for seconds or minutes at a time when Nunnally was off screen and after the series ended. But nobody would used that possibility to argue that Nunnally failed to break her Blindness geass.

And in post # 243 you wrote:


Of course not, because there is no proof that that happened. Like I have told you, because Code Geass is a limited universe (like all cartoons), you MUST use proof FROM THE SHOW in order to prove your point. You CANNOT use unproven and unsupported assumptions of YOUR OWN to prove YOUR point. That is a logical fallacy and it makes your point moot (now you need to prove to me that Nunnally did regain her eyesight from time to time using evidence from the show). We have gone through this.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Nunnally was clearly able to see in all the minutes or hours of screen time that she was seen in for the rest of the series. And during all the days or weeks or months of fictional time until the end of the series she was clearly able to see most of the time. Nobody commented while on screen about Nunnally ever relapsing into blindness. So if she did relapse into blindness during that period it must have been for few enough and short enough periods not to be mentioned by any of the characters.

Either Nunnally never relapsed into blindness for even a single second, or else she did relapse into blindness a few times that were not seen onscreen and were not commented on by anyone on screen.

But after the end of the series there is no information on Nunnally. Nunnally could have been blind for absolutely zero percent of the time or absolutely one hundred percent of the time or any where in between. Anyone who assumes that Nunnally could see all the time for the rest of her life is making an assumption that may be true but has no factual basis.

If you read some fan fiction in which Nunnally struggled with her blindness coming back would you say that in the fictional universe of that fan fiction Nunnally had failed to defeat her blindness geass? Or would you say that if Nunnally could see 60 % of the time, or 75 % of the time or 99.9% of the time, she had defeated her blindness geass and its comebacks were only minor setbacks to her?

I say that the fact that Euphemia's geass command tried to make a comeback in the Avalon Sickbay and was instantly defeated by Euphemia shows that Euphemia had defeated her geass command about as thoroughly as Nunnally defeated her blindness geass.

In post # 0233 wolfgirl9 said that Euphemia could barely speak above a whisper, as if that had anything to do with her ability to kill. So in post # 239 I wrote:

So you claim that in Britannia being unable to speak above a very low whisper disqualifies someone from being able to command? It seems to me that if a young and beautiful dying princess ordered a Britannian crew to slaughter some more Japanese people, something which apparently they enjoyed doing anyway, the feebleness of her voice as death neared would only make them more eager to obey her last orders and avenge her death on those who dared to be born into the same nationality that they assumed that her killer was a member of.

and wolfgirl90 replied in post # 243:


Since I never made that claim, what you said after it is also moot. But whatever...:rolleyes:

When Euphemia was in the sickbay, the Geass appeared but only for a few seconds. During those seconds, she really only said a few of sentences: "Suzaku, you're Japanese, right? No...I mustn't. I can't even think of such a thing. No, please." Immediately after she said that, she either pushed it back OR the Geass faded as per the rules. She was fighting the Geass pretty much the whole time that was active while she was in the sickbay (which was only a few seconds), so no, I do not think that she would have been able to give an order to follow her Geass command during that time.

And I am saying that the reason why the geass was active for only a few seconds is because Euphemia defeated it. You say that Euphemia did not have enough time to give any long and complicated order (like "Kill Suzaku" or "Destroy the nearest Eleven Ghetto") during the few seconds that the geass command was active in the sickbay. But she had many seconds or even a few minutes left in which she did say at least several sentences. That gave her plenty of time for ordering even a fairly long and complex order.

If the geass command gave up trying to make her order others to kill it gave up way too soon.

proEuphie
03-17-2010, 10:52 PM
No, it's actually:

I get this image of you frantically pounding the keys, in a panic, trying to post this. Asking this question is like asking: "if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
No one will be able or willing to answer it.

No, but I do make a lot of typos which I go back and correct. But I don't know the procedure for correcting the title of a thread. Otherwise I would correct it.


What I noticed was that the doctors didn't even try to save Euphy, therefore it's THEIR FAULT SHE DIED!

Expect proEuphie to post another thread about what I just said.

I'm sorry, my fellow human beings, I just committed heresy[/quote]

Not exactly. If the doctors did not try to save Euphemia then they were a group (the other being Lelouch, CC, and Kallen) that was necessary but not sufficient to kill Euphemia. The activities of both groups would be necessary and sufficient to cause Euphemia's death and therefore preventing either group from acting as they did would have saved Euphemia's life. If your theory is correct.

So you seem to be implying that Lelouch was not responsible for Euphemia's death because he had not aware of the doctors' hypothetical evil intent toward Euphie and thus assumed that they would treat her and save her life.

But LELOUCH DID NOT KNOW THAT EUPHEMIA WOULD BE TREATED IN THE SICKBAY OF THE AVALON!

Lelouch was surprise, shocked, and scared when Suzaku in the Lancelot swooped down and picked up Euphemia's body and carried her away. Lelouch was not planning for that to happen or for Euphemia to be treated for her wounds in the sickbay of the Avalon.

It is possible that the doctors did treat Euphemia successfully but gave her a drug which simulated death in order to gain control of her for some nefarious purpose of theirs or of the Emperor.

I believe that if Euphemia was publicly known to have survived the Emperor would have made up a story about Zero having an evil plan to infiltrate the opening of the SAZ and start an uprising was was to be the signal for the massacre of all the Britannians in Area Eleven. Zero boasted of it to Euphie in their private meeting but she escaped from him and ordered her men to kill all the Elevens in the stadium and prevented the full scale uprising since many rebel groups feared that Euphemia's actions showed that their plot was exposed.

Unfortunately Euphemia was too kind and gentle and the shock of having to do such a violent act had driven her insane, but her doctors hoped that she might be cured in a few years or decades.

And if Euphemia was really dead the Emperor might have used such a story to discredit Zero and make it even harder for Lelouch to resume his rebellion.

Or the Emperor could have claimed that Zero used some kind of mind control (but not geass of course) to make Euphemia order the massacre, deliberately sacrificing thousands of Japanese lives to start his Black Rebellion. That story might make Zero hated by millions of Japense and others who believed it.

It seems to me that the only possible reason for not finding a way to blame the massacre on Zero was if Euphemia was secretly alive. If Euphie was secretly alive as a prisoner of the Emperor then blaming the massacre on her made sense. It would humiliate her. And it would make it doubly impossible for her to ever influence the course of events if she escaped. She would be claiming to be a princess who was dead and who was hated and despised as an evil massacre princess (even though her respected sister Cornelia was at least as much of a massacre princess as Euphemia).

proEuphie
03-17-2010, 11:17 PM
Here is a simple, elegant argument that Euphemia defeated her geass command right before Lelouch shot her, from my post # 244..

The attempt of the geass command to regain control of Euphemia in the sickbay and it's failure just in time to save Suzaku is many times more likely to be an almost inevitable result of certain dramatic elements of the plot than it is to be some random, meaningless event.

If the geass command just happened to run out of geass energy to control Euphemia just in the nick of time to save Suzaku that would be an incredible coincidence and a major weakness of the story.

Since Euphemia obviously still could talk and give commands for seconds or minutes after the geass command ceased trying to control her, we can deduce that if the geass command gave up because it believed that Euphemia was too weak to kill -- despite having made her give orders just minutes or hours earlier that made other people kill hundreds or thousands of Japanese people -- that would mean that Suzaku was saved by the incredible stupidity of the geass command. Which would be a major plot weakness.

So that leaves Euphemia defeating her geass command when it tried to regain control of her in the sickbay of the Avalon. Which is a much more reasonable and dramatic explanation for Suzaku's survival.

But it would be an incredible coincidence if Euphemia instantly defeated her geass command just in the nick of time to save Suzaku when it tried to regain control in the sickbay of the Avalon. How could she possibly instantly find a way to defeat her geass command when it had controlled her for minutes or hours before? That would be a major plot weakness.

But if Euphemia had defeated her geass command before, she could instantly remember how she did it before. thus she could instantly defeat her geass command the next time. Thus Euphemia must have defeated her geass command while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.

So, in order for Code Geass to be a well written tv show, Euphemia had to defeat her geass command while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.

Rolo Vi Britannia
03-18-2010, 09:23 AM
No, but I do make a lot of typos which I go back and correct. But I don't know the procedure for correcting the title of a thread. Otherwise I would correct it.
Go to your first post and press edit. Then select "go advanced" Then the title should be at the top of the post. You can fix the spoiler in "Euphemia's Murder" that way too.

wolfgirl90
03-18-2010, 12:40 PM
You are just playing with words.

Well, I'm playing with you, so I guess that would be appropriate. Anyway, I never used the word "victory", so I do not know what you are talking about. :rolleyes:

Again, you DO realize that I am really not paying any real attention to what you say, right? That I am responding to you simply because what you say is hilarious and idiotic? That I REALLY do not care about Euphemia's death? Okay, just letting you know.


Euphemia almost certainly escaped from the control of her geass command for several seconds before Lelouch shot her, because she had just lost her nightmare and here was her brother with two nightmares right in front of her with great potential to help or hinder carrying out her task and she didn't ask him about his intentions.

Again, that doesn't prove anything. Like I said, Lelouch is her brother and the one who issued the Geass. Because of this, and the fact that he wasn't trying to stop her, she was as normal and calm as she normally would have been. This doesn't prove that she "escaped" anything. The keyword from you is "almost certainly".

Also, its "Knightmare". Again, if it feels like I am nit-picking, its because I am.:rolleyes:


But since we are discussing another possible explanation, you cannot use the existence of that one possible explanation to disprove the correctness of another possible explanation.

Excuse me? I didn't "disprove" anything that you said since I didn't say that you were wholly wrong. HOWEVER, you are not wholly right, either. I CAN use the Geass rules to prove my point because these rules actually exist and are much more canon than the theory that you pulled out of your behind. And yes, I CAN use it to disprove you (again, because the Geass rules are canon and can easily prove you wrong). Learn how fallacies and arguments work before you accuse me of doing these things, troll.:rolleyes::rolleyes:


It is impossible to prove a negative (to absolutely disprove the idea that the geass command simply gave up), and so by your ideas it is impossible for be to prove a positive, that Euphemia defeated her geass command in the sickbay of the Avalon.

It IS possible to prove a negative. That's a misconception and I laugh whenever people say this. If one could, I would consider thinking that it was impossible to be a logical fallacy all on its own. The statement "you can't prove a negative" or "its impossible to prove a negative" is negative in and of itself. If they, the negative statements, are proven to be true, as you claim, that means negatives CAN be proven true. OH SNAP! Did I just blow your mind?!:cool:

I am not saying that I am completely right just as how I am not saying that you are completely wrong. HOWEVER, since YOU think that you are only one right here, YOU need to prove that I am wrong in order "win" the argument. Otherwise, you are no more "right" than I am.

What I am saying is that EITHER the Geass rule took effect OR Euphemia pushed it back (not defeated, but pushed it back). You however, are saying that she "escaped" the Geass' control (or broke it) before she got to the sickbay. YOU need to prove me wrong AS WELL AS prove yourself right in order to "win" the argument. Otherwise, again, my argument is still valid.


If the geass command just happened to run out of geass energy to control Euphemia just in the nick of time to save Suzaku that would be an incredible coincidence and a major weakness of the story.

If you have a problem with it, take it up with Sunrise. By the way, have you contacted them about bringing Euphemia back to life. I mean, its one of things you want, right? That's what you are whining about, yes? In yet, you are still wasting time here...Okay, whatever.:rolleyes:


Which would be a major plot weakness.

Irrelevant conclusion fallacy...again. Euphemia was DYING while she was in the sickbay, so needless to say, she was certainly not in the same condition then as she was while she was killing people. This is reason why the Geass acted differently: in the beginning, she was killing people; while in the sickbay, the rules took effect and the Geass faded away.


Which is a much more reasonable and dramatic explanation for Suzaku's survival.

The fact that it was more "dramatic" doesn't mean that's true.


How could she possibly instantly find a way to defeat her geass command when it had controlled her for minutes or hours before?

Indeed. Of course, no one is arguing that Euphemia broke the Geass in the first place, so that point is moot.


But if Euphemia had defeated her geass command before, she could instantly remember how she did it before.

Of course, as per the rules, all the memories that were sealed during the duration of the Geass would return and Euphemia would have remembered the massacre she JUST caused ALONG WITH how to defeat the Geass (you know, just as how Lelouch and Shirley regained their memories when their Geass commands were broken). Oh wait, what's that? She didn't remember the massacre? I wonder what that means?:eek::eek:


So, in order for Code Geass to be a well written tv show, Euphemia had to defeat her geass command while talking to Lelouch right before he shot her.

Straw man fallacy. What does the quality of the writing have ANYTHING to do with what happened in the show (and who even argued that the quality of the show even mattered)? I could easily argue that in order for the Twilight series to be a popular series, Bella should have figured out that Edward was a sparkling wuss who was willing to kill himself because she wouldn't answer his phone calls, but that doesn't change the fact that that was what happened.

Same thing goes for you. We are not talking about the quality of the show's writing so talking about how everything SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED in order for the show to be well-written does not change WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED (well-written show or not) nor does it disprove my point. I didn't say anything about the quality of the show (neither here nor on any other thread of yours).

proEuphie
03-18-2010, 09:33 PM
Go to your first post and press edit. Then select "go advanced" Then the title should be at the top of the post. You can fix the spoiler in "Euphemia's Murder" that way too.

No, that only changed the title of the first post, not the title of the whole thread.

Rolo Vi Britannia
03-18-2010, 10:45 PM
No, that only changed the title of the first post, not the title of the whole thread.
It worked when I did it. Try it again and make sure you enter it in the correct box.