Goku vs Superman

[Miz]

This is a common thing. People say who would win, Goku or Superman? Who do you think would win. I say Goku wins hands down but superman could also win so it could go either way. What do you all think?

[~*Nikki*~]

That's like saying Godzilla or T-Rex...

NO COMPETITION!!! Of course, I believe, Superman would probably lose! Then again Goku has his flaws as well, I'm pretty sure that Superman can kick his butt.

[Hideki Motosuwa.]

Goku has too much mercy on people, even villains -.-' Look at his battle with Frieza, he was sooo lenient on him and even gave him some of his energy when Frieza was cut in 4 0_o;;; If Superman could play those same tricks on Goku as everyone else and exploit his greatest weakness(his soft and forgiving heart) then I'd say Superman has a chance http://www.animeforum.com/images/icons/icon5.gif But if Goku was merciless, then Superman, prepare to be gone in 5 seconds O_O;;;

[SSDynamite]

Power and strength wise: Goku! hands down!

Though it depends on why their fighting, if superman was an evil villain and had like... killed chichi. then goku would whoop his ***. but goku does have that soft-squidgy side to him that stopped him from killing freiza etc... so if goku just stood there and refused to fight and let superman relentlessly hit him, then yes... goku would be eroded away.

[Lord Tsukuyomi]

If this was a sanctioned match Goku would stomp a hole in Superman. If it wasn't then Goku nor Superman would fight each other because both are too goody goody to fight, maybe if the other was screwing with the Earth in some way then we would have a royal beating cause Goku is so much stronger than Superman. (No freakin' contest)

[Your Father]

These thread aren't allowed are they?Production Studios already made a movieish thing out of this.

[Kawairashii hikari]

You people are giving Goku tooooo much freakin credit.
I only watched Dragonball when i went over my cousin's house so I know some about Goku. He IS a beast when he wants to be.
BUT...
With all that Superman can do... seriously I think he would crush Goku. Crush him into oblivion and then smash him into little bitty pieces in the dirt. Hmph. *coming from a Superman fangirl here*

[Otosu]

This vs That threads are prohibited, no?

But regardless, I think Goku would totally win. Superman sucks, in my view.

[Sanosuke23]

Pick a Superman. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman) Pre-Crisis, Modern Age, All-Star and Red Son Supes would eat Goku's lunch in a serious fight without question. Kingdom Come and Dark Knight would be closer, but still Supes would pull it out in the end, I think. Golden Age Superman would lose miserably, and I think Post-Crisis Superman and Goku would be about even.

[DarkMoonPrince]

Many will think goku will win, it's kinda obvious because goku can get more powerful in each near death battle.

[Tomoyo01]

I say Goku would win and if he`d need more than 10 seconds to win it would be proven that miracels happen

[Hotscout44]

Goku for sure..... Superman cant really blast power from his hands can he? lol Superman aint got nothing on goku

[Your Father]

Goku has no weakness except human life.Superman=Kryptonite.

[Sanosuke23]

Goku has no weakness except human life.Superman=Kryptonite.

Ah, but Goku wouldn't use Kryptonite. He'd want a fair match.

[Sakurablue]

Ah, but Goku wouldn't use Kryptonite. He'd want a fair match.
Yeah, he wouldn't use kryptonite.
But Goku can do range damage and Superman is more of a hand to hand combat person. Am i right?

[Sanosuke23]

Yeah, he wouldn't use kryptonite.
But Goku can do range damage and Superman is more of a hand to hand combat person. Am i right?

You mean aside from being able to exhale gale-force winds and having heat beams come from his eyes? Hell, while Goku's charging anything up Supes'd be able to give him a lobotomy from 100 yards.

But he wouldn't, because Goku's not irredeemably evil and Superman's a boy scout. He'd probably just blind him or set his clothes on fire or something.


Heck, if we go with Silver/Bronze Age Superman, he has Super Hypnosis that he activates just by looking you in the eye. I don't think any of you young people raised almost solely on anime fully grasp how omgwtfhax Superman really is.

[Your Father]

You mean aside from being able to exhale gale-force winds and having heat beams come from his eyes? Hell, while Goku's charging anything up Supes'd be able to give him a lobotomy from 100 yards.

But he wouldn't, because Goku's not irredeemably evil and Superman's a boy scout. He'd probably just blind him or set his clothes on fire or something.


Heck, if we go with Silver/Bronze Age Superman, he has Super Hypnosis that he activates just by looking you in the eye. I don't think any of you young people raised almost solely on anime fully grasp how omgwtfhax Superman really is.

Keep in mind hardly anyone here has cracked open a comic book.I have,but not much Super Man.I'm Flash.

Superman may be made of steel,but Goku has been known to do massive damage to steel at the tournaments.Goku can run around naked,without it bothering him,hence his childhood.Superman's allies can come to help out,but once the Z warriors come,it's over.Piccolo will start trippin' beams.Vegeta will start trippin' bangs,and Krillin....well,he can babysit Gohan.

[Sanosuke23]

Keep in mind hardly anyone here has cracked open a comic book.I have,but not much Super Man.I'm Flash.

Superman may be made of steel,but Goku has been known to do massive damage to steel at the tournaments.Goku can run around naked,without it bothering him,hence his childhood.Superman's allies can come to help out,but once the Z warriors come,it's over.Piccolo will start trippin' beams.Vegeta will start trippin' bangs,and Krillin....well,he can babysit Gohan.

Superman's not "made of steel," it's a catchphrase. He can survive a nuclear explosion with varying degrees of discomfort depending on the time period.

Superman doesn't NEED allies, the only reason the Justice League exists is because Superman is fairly humble and sometimes can't be in seven places at once. You said you read Flash? Have you heard of the Infinite Mass Punch?

Infinite Mass Punch - Introduced in Grant Morrison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Morrison)'s JLA title, Flash (Wally West (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_West)), travelling near the speed of light acquired the relativistic mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rest_mass) of such speed to impart blows which could hit with the force of "a white dwarf star", enabling him to knock down such powerful foes as the White Martians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Martians) with a single punch; Flash's own durability is regulated by the Speed Force in such cases.

Considering people will die in DBZ if they get sent into the sun, I'd say that's going to hurt.

Speaking of suns, Superman can fly through it unharmed. I think it's safe to say his durability is way above Goku's.


As for kids not ever reading comics, why would you match up something you have no idea about?

[Your Father]

Superman's not "made of steel," it's a catchphrase. He can survive a nuclear explosion with varying degrees of discomfort depending on the time period.

Superman doesn't NEED allies, the only reason the Justice League exists is because Superman is fairly humble and sometimes can't be in seven places at once. You said you read Flash? Have you heard of the Infinite Mass Punch?



Considering people will die in DBZ if they get sent into the sun, I'd say that's going to hurt.

Speaking of suns, Superman can fly through it unharmed. I think it's safe to say his durability is way above Goku's.




As for kids not ever reading comics, why would you match up something you have no idea about?


He also had the ability to run around The Alchemist and cut off his oxygen.

BTW sadly I read some gen.of them.I had to sell some.

[Stu]

I enjoy both characters and collect the comics every month, and Goku would defintely win - we are talking post Dragonball GT right? Though even if it was post Buu Goku, he would still win.

A lot of people note Goku's lack of willingness to fight, and that this might give Supes a chance, but what they forget is that Supes is even more passive. And in fact are partially wrong becasue while Goku enjoys training and fighting (not killing), Supes doesn't need to train as he's a solar battery, and probably enjoys a day out with Lois much more. The fact that he's a solar battery allows him to fly through the sun, it should not be used to judge his standard (average) power level.
Goku's power is way above Superman's.
If you want a challenge then a try a juiced up (solar saturated) Superman or the Silver Age Superman, now that would be an interesting fight.

[TheAsterisk!]

Superman's ability to survive a nuclear blast means little if he can not also produce enough power to destroy Goku. We've seen Vegeta and Nappa, back when Nappa's power level measured at a measly 4000 (whereas Super Saiyan (1) Goku's power level exceeds at least 1000000 (Frieza's boast, remember?)), survive a blast they produced that destroyed a city. I would think that's at least comparable to a small nuclear weapon. As for hollering to produce gale-force winds...that's how Goku threw Chichi out of bounds back in Dragonball, before the ridiculous powerups of Super Saiyan this and Super Saiyan that ever mattered, 'cept he made the wind not with voice but with his fist. Yes, we have seen people fall into the sun and disappear forever, but there is no reason to think they're dead. They could be trapped in the sun's gravity, unable to escape. We have seen that Cooler's head survived, though.
Goku could also make many attempts to kill Superman. Aside from the obvious "He'll eat thousands of senzu beans!" argument, Goku could also just teleport himself to another planet and recuperate, challenging Superman to battle after battle until he wins (and he would eventually win since pummeling a Saiyan just builds 'em up). He could even teleport Superman into space. I'm pretty sure Superman needs air and, if Goku was quick enough about it, he could be back on the ground catching his breath while Superman turns blue in the orbit of one of the universe's distant, populated planets.
Of course, I have no doubt that these arguments are speculative and that others can make arguments as reasonable that Superman would win. This is where I make a seemingly absurd but sound claim.

Lord Slug could defeat Superman with ease. He might lose a few of his minions, but it would be very simple. Before landing on any planet, Slug likes to block out the sun. Apparently, his henchmen have an aversion to it (sunburn, their vampire in-laws, I don't know). If Superman is really just a big photovoltaic & battery, then his power would wane over time. The first few lackeys to attack him would no doubt be destroyed, but he would eventually lose.
Conceivably, Turles's tree of might could accomplish the same thing. As seen in the special, the tree turned the Earth into a wasteland, barren of nearly all natural life. This would lead to dust storms like those that happened in the Dustbowl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl). This could block out the sun, too, rendering Superman a dead battery.
A Babidi/Yakon fight would also deprive him of the sunlight.
The deadzone would also leave him powerless, but I bet Garlic (and Junior) would let him kill Goku first before pulling him in.
Let's not forget that the sun temporarily seems to disappear when either of the sets of dragonballs is used.

And so we see that while Goku, the greatest hero in Dragonball (Z) (GT), cannot necessarily defeat Superman in a head on brawl, some of the most mediocre movie villains could do away with him with relative ease.

Just so long as Superman doesn't challenge anyone on Namek.

[Stu]

What is Goku's strongest attack comparable to? I always thought is was much more than a nuclear attack?

TheAsterisk!, while you make an interesting argument, you misunderstand Supermans powers. Blocking out the sun will make little diffrence to Superman in a single battle, even if it lasted weeks and the Sun was blocked out. Remember Supes has been living on earth since he was a baby, and so his cells have been absorbing the radiation since then. Apart from the occasional trip to space and draining of his powers, his cells have been replenished.
You have to think of him like any battery. After a charging, they can last a long time before a recharge is required (much more so with Supes). So blocking out the sun, via a dust storm (though he could just fly up above the storm) or anything else will not help.

What (mediocre) villains did you have in mind, apart from those. As I disagree the mediocre ones could take him down easily. I always thought that in a pure brute force battle Goku would win, but then that's what the Justice League is for!
Truth be told they would most likely kick back, fly around for a while, have a chat, save some people from a buring building, shake hands and wish each other well.

[bluewolfjelly]

Many will think goku will win, it's kinda obvious because goku can get more powerful in each near death battle.
Yes I think Goku would win.
He is very strong.
XD
♥

[TheAsterisk!]

What is Goku's strongest attack comparable to? I always thought is was much more than a nuclear attack?

TheAsterisk!, while you make an interesting argument, you misunderstand Supermans powers. Blocking out the sun will make little diffrence to Superman in a single battle, even if it lasted weeks and the Sun was blocked out. Remember Supes has been living on earth since he was a baby, and so his cells have been absorbing the radiation since then. Apart from the occasional trip to space and draining of his powers, his cells have been replenished.
You have to think of him like any battery. After a charging, they can last a long time before a recharge is required (much more so with Supes). So blocking out the sun, via a dust storm (though he could just fly up above the storm) or anything else will not help.

What (mediocre) villains did you have in mind, apart from those. As I disagree the mediocre ones could take him down easily. I always thought that in a pure brute force battle Goku would win, but then that's what the Justice League is for!
Truth be told they would most likely kick back, fly around for a while, have a chat, save some people from a buring building, shake hands and wish each other well.
I have no clue as to the yield of Goku's strongest attack (or what it'd actually be); I was pointing out that Superman's ability to withstand nukes wasn't special at all.

Well, I can't say I actually expected to win with such claims. I was reaching for anything. I concede on that point.
My teleportation argument still stands, though.
If Superman feels like bringing the Justice League into the picture, Goku will also bring in Piccolo, Vegeta, Krillin, etc.

Out of curiousity (not argument), why does no sun have little affect on Superman where more sunlight instantly powers him up? Shouldn't both effects take a similar amount of time?

[███]

A lot of people note Goku's lack of willingness to fight,


Are you sure that you are talking about the same Goku here? He loved to fight.

[Stu]

I have no clue as to the yield of Goku's strongest attack (or what it'd actually be); I was pointing out that Superman's ability to withstand nukes wasn't special at all.

Well, I can't say I actually expected to win with such claims. I was reaching for anything. I concede on that point.
My teleportation argument still stands, though.
If Superman feels like bringing the Justice League into the picture, Goku will also bring in Piccolo, Vegeta, Krillin, etc.

Out of curiousity (not argument), why does no sun have little affect on Superman where more sunlight instantly powers him up? Shouldn't both effects take a similar amount of time?

Yes, that was my point, that Superman is by no means immune to a massive nuclear attack.

This is where Supes outdoes Goku though. Recuperation. Remember, without Sensu Beans, Goku would take a lot longer to recover than Supes as he could get closer to the sun to recover, so it's sort of of stalemate on that count.
But not only that, I think that Supes could possibly be faster than Goku. Rememeber their speed is based on entirely different powers, so he would need to hold him down for that time, though don't quote me on that.

It's not that it would have no effect on him, but he stores the energy like a battery. So in other words when the energy is gained it is not used the next second, but stored. But is absorbed immediately. Though I'm not sure the phrase "instantly powers him up" is correct. This depends on your definition of "powers up". This could be true however depending on how close he got to the sun.

For example, lets say he had no access to (star) sunlight for a certain time.
If he was expending large amounts of energy during this time without sunlight, it would clearly have an effect on him, and he would grow weaker quicker than if he was not very active.

The three week example was wrong on my part, in a battle scenario that is. But I was overstating my point because no battle will last weeks. At the most a day.

[Stu]

Are you sure that you are talking about the same Goku here? He loved to fight.

Yes exactly, that was my point I was making about other people.
I agree, Goku loves to train hard, and fight (for sport, not to hurt)!

[Xieshunnuan]

Superman is said to have a body stronger then steel... so don't that mean he would win?? ( also before superman is actually alot stronger then how they made him now just in case u didn't no.)

[lawlietth]

LOL what a nice thread
I go for superman, stronger, faster...
(and that red ugly briefs he wears would ad him some extrapower >.> if not, he should take them off <.<)
Yeah, he should kick Goku *stary-eyed*

[Stu]

No, no body of steel.
It's just one of the names he is known by, like: Superman: The Man of Steel, or Superman: The Man of Tomorrow, etc.

Yeah that was the Silver Age Superman, but that all changed in the massive DC Comics event, "Crisis on Infinite Earths", where the multiverse was changed along with many characters into a single universe (or so it was thought...).
But yes, the Silver Age Superman would indeed have been an interesting fight. But I still maintain that Goku would beat the current Superman (for reasons stated in previous posts).

[sataned]

lolol you all know nothing!!! its obvious Goku would woop on Superman mainly because Goku can power up all the way to like Super Sayin4 or some bull, and once he hits that level theres no stopping Goku he can destroy anyone!
hed be alot stronger and faster than superman plus he has that kamehameha x10! it would anihilate superman , what does superman have? speed strength and laser eyes .. cheap! goku can just teleport towards him, behind him, above him, around him and woop on him like hes nothing. i say supermans equivalent to vegeta when he first arrives on earth and gets wooped on by goku... i bet a better match would be Superman Vs Krillin .. ahahah! now that sounds more fair for superman...

[Brian323]

That would be one epic battle
Although theres no way Superman could win
Goku would win

[zerohalo21]

I think it would be a good close fight but Goku would win in the end.

[Shedra]

SUPERMAN HAX THE UNIVERSE.
SRSLY.
HE CAN'T DIE.
AND THAT "DEATH OF SUPERMAN" CARTOON MOVE.
HE COMES BACK.
GOKU CAN DIE LOTS.
HE DOES DIE LOTS.
GOKU WOULD GET PWND.
FACE IT.
SUPERMAN HAS LASER EYES. SRSLY.
ARE YOU PEOPLE CRAZY?
AND THE HURRICANE SNEEZES.
AND HE TAKES 50 CAL. GUNSHOTS TO THE EYE.
NO RLY GOKU WOULD DIE.
Goku is cooler, but Superman cheats. You notice that the only way superman even bleeds a LITTLE bit is the MAGICAL RADIATION GREEN ROCK+ stabbing? Did you notice that Goku bleeds a lot when he get hit in the nose?
NOTICE THAT?

[xcloudxstrifex]

Superman would totally win! lolz!

[Stu]

SUPERMAN HAX THE UNIVERSE.
SRSLY.
HE CAN'T DIE.
AND THAT "DEATH OF SUPERMAN" CARTOON MOVE.
HE COMES BACK.
GOKU CAN DIE LOTS.
HE DOES DIE LOTS.
GOKU WOULD GET PWND.
FACE IT.
SUPERMAN HAS LASER EYES. SRSLY.
ARE YOU PEOPLE CRAZY?
AND THE HURRICANE SNEEZES.
AND HE TAKES 50 CAL. GUNSHOTS TO THE EYE.
NO RLY GOKU WOULD DIE.
Goku is cooler, but Superman cheats. You notice that the only way superman even bleeds a LITTLE bit is the MAGICAL RADIATION GREEN ROCK+ stabbing? Did you notice that Goku bleeds a lot when he get hit in the nose?
NOTICE THAT?

Of course Superman can die. His return was only a one time thing. Those exact same circumstances can not be repeated.
It's really tough to judge, but Supes would probably be able to take out a Super Saiyan (Level 1). An Asceneded Saiyan, or Gohan's level when he defeated Cell, now that would be a battle.

[Sanosuke23]

I have no clue as to the yield of Goku's strongest attack (or what it'd actually be); I was pointing out that Superman's ability to withstand nukes wasn't special at all.

Well, I can't say I actually expected to win with such claims. I was reaching for anything. I concede on that point.
My teleportation argument still stands, though.
If Superman feels like bringing the Justice League into the picture, Goku will also bring in Piccolo, Vegeta, Krillin, etc.

Out of curiousity (not argument), why does no sun have little affect on Superman where more sunlight instantly powers him up? Shouldn't both effects take a similar amount of time?

Okay, here's the deal as I understand it:

Superman has decades of power saved up. It would take him decades to power down. In fact, there's a miniseries where the sun had been blotted out and twenty years later while he was still nigh-invulnerable and had most of his power intact, he was noticably weaker. He doesn't instantly charge up or super-heal or anything in direct sunlight, but the energy he expends to do anything is minmal compared to the amount his body can hold and is currently holding at any given time.

Superman can react and move at speeds only slightly slower than Goku's teleportation. On reaction time alone Supes has Goku beat. However, the outcome doesn't hinge on reaction time alone, because as you said he still needs the power to injure Goku.

This is why I linked to the various -Age Supermans in my opening post. His strength varies based on when we're talking. There are some Supermans(I do believe that'd be the correct plural in this case) who can destroy a planet if using their full potential with a single punch, and there are others where that isn't the case. The real problem lies with the fact that Goku's strength was never measured in realistic units, so we have to eyeball it.

Oh, and as an aside, if the Pro-Goku crowd can use GT I can use Elseworlds and other non-canon stories, in which Superman actually ascended to godhood essentially by flexing really hard.

[Your Father]

SUPERMAN HAX THE UNIVERSE.
SRSLY.
HE CAN'T DIE.
AND THAT "DEATH OF SUPERMAN" CARTOON MOVE.
HE COMES BACK.
GOKU CAN DIE LOTS.
HE DOES DIE LOTS.
GOKU WOULD GET PWND.
FACE IT.
SUPERMAN HAS LASER EYES. SRSLY.
ARE YOU PEOPLE CRAZY?
AND THE HURRICANE SNEEZES.
AND HE TAKES 50 CAL. GUNSHOTS TO THE EYE.
NO RLY GOKU WOULD DIE.
Goku is cooler, but Superman cheats. You notice that the only way superman even bleeds a LITTLE bit is the MAGICAL RADIATION GREEN ROCK+ stabbing? Did you notice that Goku bleeds a lot when he get hit in the nose?
NOTICE THAT?

OR SRSLY?
If a rock can kill you,I wouldn't rely on him.

Made for AF audience:
http://i36.tinypic.com/14am150.jpg

Don't flame me,it has something to do with the thread.

[Shedra]

OR SRSLY?
If a rock can kill you,I wouldn't rely on him.

MAGIC ROCK. U DIDN'T LISTEN.

[stop_rewind]

goku would pwn if he had some kriptonite

[Stu]

Okay, here's the deal as I understand it:

Superman has decades of power saved up. It would take him decades to power down. In fact, there's a miniseries where the sun had been blotted out and twenty years later while he was still nigh-invulnerable and had most of his power intact, he was noticably weaker. He doesn't instantly charge up or super-heal or anything in direct sunlight, but the energy he expends to do anything is minmal compared to the amount his body can hold and is currently holding at any given time.

Superman can react and move at speeds only slightly slower than Goku's teleportation. On reaction time alone Supes has Goku beat. However, the outcome doesn't hinge on reaction time alone, because as you said he still needs the power to injure Goku.

This is why I linked to the various -Age Supermans in my opening post. His strength varies based on when we're talking. There are some Supermans(I do believe that'd be the correct plural in this case) who can destroy a planet if using their full potential with a single punch, and there are others where that isn't the case. The real problem lies with the fact that Goku's strength was never measured in realistic units, so we have to eyeball it.

Oh, and as an aside, if the Pro-Goku crowd can use GT I can use Elseworlds and other non-canon stories, in which Superman actually ascended to godhood essentially by flexing really hard.

Even though he has had the stored up energy, he has lost that a number of times (I collect the comics), but has recharged.

No, if the sun was blotted out he would lose his power.

In fact he can instantly charge, and can super-heal, but for this to happen he would have to be very close to a yellow sun. In fact this has happened a few times like in the "Trial of Superman" arc. He was in a ship being transported for trial and was thrown out of the ship close to a sun, and while he almost died, he had enough time to charge.

I would agree with you on that, Superman's speed to power ratio is unlike Goku's, where Goku's speed is almost always the same as his power, Superman's is not, and his speed is way above his physical power/heat vision.

I think the Superman you are talking about is the Silverage Superman, but even he didn't have the power to destroy a planet with a single punch. The only Superman coming close to that power would be Superman Prime, who is a future Superman seen in DC One Million, where he spent one hundred centuries in the core of the sun!! Now he would kick Goku's a*s.

[Stu]

Nice pic Aka Ari Kurosaki!!

http://i36.tinypic.com/14am150.jpg

[TheAsterisk!]

I didn't make it clear earlier, and I apologize, but I'm working on the assumption that this is a fight for the universe. If you need a reason, concoct a villain that pits Superman and Goku against one another. Goku was willing to kill the Supreme Kai to get to Vegeta when Babidi messed with them, so I would not think it impossible for Superman and Goku to fight to the death.

Now on with my rebuttals.

Yes, that was my point, that Superman is by no means immune to a massive nuclear attack.
I didn't say that, but thatnks for the concesion anyway. What I said was that even Krillin could take a nuclear blast head on. It's not exceptional.

This is where Supes outdoes Goku though. Recuperation. Remember, without Sensu Beans, Goku would take a lot longer to recover than Supes as he could get closer to the sun to recover, so it's sort of of stalemate on that count.
Time matters not, since Goku could hide very far away, but if time was short, I'm sure Dende could heal him.
But not only that, I think that Supes could possibly be faster than Goku. Rememeber their speed is based on entirely different powers, so he would need to hold him down for that time, though don't quote me on that.
Not sure what you meant by "hold him down," but I'll point out one lil' fact. If Goku cannot move more quickly than Superman through normal means, he can teleport (they call it Intsant Transmission in the Funimation dub, and I don't think it's specifically named in the manga). This allows him to travel at several thousand time the speed of light.
It's not that it would have no effect on him, but he stores the energy like a battery. So in other words when the energy is gained it is not used the next second, but stored. But is absorbed immediately. Though I'm not sure the phrase "instantly powers him up" is correct. This depends on your definition of "powers up". This could be true however depending on how close he got to the sun.
'Kay. I know he can store it immediately, but if he's fighting in the dark, he'd expend it without replenishment, too.
That means, then, that if forced to fight without sunlight (from a yellow star), he would expend hs energy eventually. He'd probably try to conserve his energy by fighting well below his maximum, leading to a defeat.
Of course, the Lord Slug thing was a joke.
For example, lets say he had no access to (star) sunlight for a certain time.
If he was expending large amounts of energy during this time without sunlight, it would clearly have an effect on him, and he would grow weaker quicker than if he was not very active.
Meaning Goku would beat the tar out of him after a set period of time, no? I would certainly think a fight with Goku qualifies as "active."
The three week example was wrong on my part, in a battle scenario that is. But I was overstating my point because no battle will last weeks. At the most a day.
Who says it's a friendly match? That's the only way it'd be guaranteed to be short. I'm looking at a fight to the death, with retreat as an option.

Okay, here's the deal as I understand it:

Superman has decades of power saved up. It would take him decades to power down. In fact, there's a miniseries where the sun had been blotted out and twenty years later while he was still nigh-invulnerable and had most of his power intact, he was noticably weaker. He doesn't instantly charge up or super-heal or anything in direct sunlight, but the energy he expends to do anything is minmal compared to the amount his body can hold and is currently holding at any given time.
Hmm... This would make a little sense if we diddn't bother to think about it. If, on any of the occaissions when Superman was in deep trouble, he could have simply released or used a larger amount of energy (instead of, say, struggling), why doesn't he? This seems suspiciously like the Trekkie argument that "you can't prove there's no massive planetary shields, so they must be there...unless you can disprove me." This is incorrect; they made the claim, so they must prove it. Similarly, you make a claim with nothing observed to support it. Until you can show me Superman releasing a mass of reserved energy (or official sources that say he can do so), I will consider it impossible. Go on.
Superman can react and move at speeds only slightly slower than Goku's teleportation. On reaction time alone Supes has Goku beat. However, the outcome doesn't hinge on reaction time alone, because as you said he still needs the power to injure Goku.
Slower is slower, and less power is less power. I'll also question your claim that even though Superman is slower he has better reaction time. Ignoring the contradiction here, I'll ask why you think a guy who can do what he does because he lives in a comparatively low gravity environment is faster than a guy from a race known as renowned conquerers and destroyers of planets. I now return to your apparent contradiction. If he has better reaction time but is slower, then Superman will see the punch coming and anticipate it, but lack the physical speed to take any meaningful action.
This is why I linked to the various -Age Supermans in my opening post. His strength varies based on when we're talking. There are some Supermans(I do believe that'd be the correct plural in this case) who can destroy a planet if using their full potential with a single punch, and there are others where that isn't the case. The real problem lies with the fact that Goku's strength was never measured in realistic units, so we have to eyeball it.
You can measure it, but it's horribly imprecise. If I had the motivation or the time, I could guess how much energy was pumped into a destroyed planet based on the size of it and how far or quickly the escaping 'chunks' flew. I will point out, though, that Vegeta blew up a planet early in DBZ by pointing at it.
Oh, and as an aside, if the Pro-Goku crowd can use GT I can use Elseworlds and other non-canon stories, in which Superman actually ascended to godhood essentially by flexing really hard.
Well...I'm not using GT, but this brings up the issue of what is canon. If GT isn't acceptable, then neither is a whole lot of the anime. I can dig out my manga if you want, but the debate will end pretty much the same way. Goku just won't have a tail and freaky fur, but instead lack his eyebrows.

I think the Superman you are talking about is the Silverage Superman, but even he didn't have the power to destroy a planet with a single punch. The only Superman coming close to that power would be Superman Prime, who is a future Superman seen in DC One Million, where he spent one hundred centuries in the core of the sun!! Now he would kick Goku's a*s.
I didn't realize he could spend so much time (10,000 years, right?) inside a star, what with the heat and lack of food or water. Impressive. I'd like to know more of this Superman.

[Stu]

I didn't make it clear earlier, and I apologize, but I'm working on the assumption that this is a fight for the universe. If you need a reason, concoct a villain that pits Superman and Goku against one another. Goku was willing to kill the Supreme Kai to get to Vegeta when Babidi messed with them, so I would not think it impossible for Superman and Goku to fight to the death.

Now on with my rebuttals.


OK, though the circumstances would have to pretty severe, but sure I'll buy into that. Say


I didn't say that, but thatnks for the concesion anyway. What I said was that even Krillin could take a nuclear blast head on. It's not exceptional.


So where would you say Krillin reached the plateau of his power? I would have to say that it was after Guru released Krillin's hidden powers on Namek. Now I can't see Krillin at that power level defeating Superman, especially with Superman's speed - a tactic that has been used by Superman is to build up a huge amount of speed and hit his opponent at that speed - which I think Krillin couldn't counter.


Time matters not, since Goku could hide very far away, but if time was short, I'm sure Dende could heal him.


Yes, that was my point as well it would sort of a stalemate as they could both run-off to heal.
Aaah, but now you're bringing in others into play. If you bring Dende in to battle, then Supes should be allowed a partner as well - let's keep this one on one.


Not sure what you meant by "hold him down," but I'll point out one lil' fact. If Goku cannot move more quickly than Superman through normal means, he can teleport (they call it Intsant Transmission in the Funimation dub, and I don't think it's specifically named in the manga). This allows him to travel at several thousand time the speed of light.


Sorry, yeah I misunderstood your post.
But even Instant Transmission (IT) wouldn't really help against Superman's speed as Supes would be moving at high speed so when Goku has transported, Supes would be long gone. IT is useful for transporting far distances but not so much in a battle situation (well other than trying to counter a fast opponent). As far as I can remember he never used it in battle to counter speed, like against Cell for instance where that was a major part in Cell's arsenal.



'Kay. I know he can store it immediately, but if he's fighting in the dark, he'd expend it without replenishment, too.
That means, then, that if forced to fight without sunlight (from a yellow star), he would expend hs energy eventually. He'd probably try to conserve his energy by fighting well below his maximum, leading to a defeat.
Of course, the Lord Slug thing was a joke.


Yes, but you seem to think that his energy is used up fairly quickly. It's not. It would take a substatial period to diminish. I would say more than enough for one battle. If anything he would get tired and worn out long before he loses his power due to lack of sunlight. There are several arcs were he leaves for space. Also remember half of the day is night (no sun), and he works indoors, so it shows you that he doesn't de-charge easily.


Meaning Goku would beat the tar out of him after a set period of time, no? I would certainly think a fight with Goku qualifies as "active."


It's very tricky to say who would win if Supes used his speed to his advantage. But I would go with Goku for the win, even though Supes has an amazing tactical brain, Goku is also a great warrior with tactical skills, and could at some point unleash a massive release of energy causing a huge explosion, damaging both, but stunning Supes just long enough for Goku to get his hands on him and do some damage. Still, Supes could still escape again, so tough to call it.
Supes played this game with Doomsday the second time they met.


Who says it's a friendly match? That's the only way it'd be guaranteed to be short. I'm looking at a fight to the death, with retreat as an option.


With retreat as an option, man that could take a while. If you want a definite outcome. Make it limited time,with the existence of both universes in the balance.


Hmm... This would make a little sense if we diddn't bother to think about it. If, on any of the occaissions when Superman was in deep trouble, he could have simply released or used a larger amount of energy (instead of, say, struggling), why doesn't he? This seems suspiciously like the Trekkie argument that "you can't prove there's no massive planetary shields, so they must be there...unless you can disprove me." This is incorrect; they made the claim, so they must prove it. Similarly, you make a claim with nothing observed to support it. Until you can show me Superman releasing a mass of reserved energy (or official sources that say he can do so), I will consider it impossible. Go on.


No, he can't release a massive amount of energy, but he can (like anyone else) decide on the level of his attack (heat vision, breath, physical attack, etc.)


but lack the physical speed to take any meaningful action.


It could prove meaningful over a period of time.


You can measure it, but it's horribly imprecise. If I had the motivation or the time, I could guess how much energy was pumped into a destroyed planet based on the size of it and how far or quickly the escaping 'chunks' flew. I will point out, though, that Vegeta blew up a planet early in DBZ by pointing at it.


I must agree with you on this (I think I'm agreeing). This was the point were the DB writers got it a little wrong. If you remember early on in DBZ when Picalo was training Gohan, Picalo destroyed the moon to bring Gohan back from his transformed state, and yet this should have been way out of Picalo's power, as it is stated that Frieza later on only then had the power capable of destroying a planet.



Well...I'm not using GT, but this brings up the issue of what is canon. If GT isn't acceptable, then neither is a whole lot of the anime. I can dig out my manga if you want, but the debate will end pretty much the same way. Goku just won't have a tail and freaky fur, but instead lack his eyebrows.


I always though we were using GT, otherwise things might be closer.



I didn't realize he could spend so much time (10,000 years, right?) inside a star, what with the heat and lack of food or water. Impressive. I'd like to know more of this Superman.


Like I said, this was a future Superman, and my guess (it's not revealed in the series), was that after his wife and parents passed on and he was comfortable that earth could be protected he might have wanted some rest. And he chose to get away.
Supes' has a standard power level but if he stays within range of the sun for too long he can become over-powered and manifest extra abilities, etc. For instance, live much longer on a single breath of air - his cells become saturated with air.
Superman Prime is featured in the DC mini-series JLA: One Million. The whole story is collected here http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/graphic_novels/?gn=3760

and here on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/JLA-One-Million-Grant-Morrison/dp/1401203205/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219071677&sr=1-1

[Mavericker]

OR SRSLY?
If a rock can kill you,I wouldn't rely on him.

Made for AF audience:
http://i36.tinypic.com/14am150.jpg

Don't flame me,it has something to do with the thread.

Keep me and God out of this. :mad:

[Shedra]

This argument is pointless. Neither character holds a candle to Captain Falcon.
OWNED. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw)
That's a galactic rim. I mean like a few hundred thousand planets and stars were eaten up in that.

[TheAsterisk!]

OK, though the circumstances would have to pretty severe, but sure I'll buy into that.
Thank you.
So where would you say Krillin reached the plateau of his power? I would have to say that it was after Guru released Krillin's hidden powers on Namek. Now I can't see Krillin at that power level defeating Superman, especially with Superman's speed - a tactic that has been used by Superman is to build up a huge amount of speed and hit his opponent at that speed - which I think Krillin couldn't counter.
I never said Krillin coulod beat Superman. All I said was that even Krillin could take a small nuclear blast. This is to invalidate the claim that Superman's defenses are exceptional.
Yes, that was my point as well it would sort of a stalemate as they could both run-off to heal.
Goku could go across the galaxy in a few seconds. He has a tremedous advantage. Superman could only go so far wihtout aid.
Aaah, but now you're bringing in others into play. If you bring Dende in to battle, then Supes should be allowed a partner as well - let's keep this one on one.
Well, Dende isn't a combatant, but I can see ytour point. The run and heal argument still stands.
But even Instant Transmission (IT) wouldn't really help against Superman's speed as Supes would be moving at high speed so when Goku has transported, Supes would be long gone. IT is useful for transporting far distances but not so much in a battle situation (well other than trying to counter a fast opponent). As far as I can remember he never used it in battle to counter speed, like against Cell for instance where that was a major part in Cell's arsenal.
Goku used I.T. three times against Cell. It does work if need be.
Yes, but you seem to think that his energy is used up fairly quickly. It's not. It would take a substatial period to diminish. I would say more than enough for one battle. If anything he would get tired and worn out long before he loses his power due to lack of sunlight. There are several arcs were he leaves for space. Also remember half of the day is night (no sun), and he works indoors, so it shows you that he doesn't de-charge easily.
1 - Space is not devoid of sunlight. There's plenty.
2 - Inside he can still get sunlight. Heard of a window?
3 - I could argue that, since the moon reflects sunlight, he is still getting a little energy at night (barring a new moon or lunar eclipse), but I could also say that the Lord Slug comment was made for giggles. Stop worrying about it so much.
It's very tricky to say who would win if Supes used his speed to his advantage. But I would go with Goku for the win, even though Supes has an amazing tactical brain, Goku is also a great warrior with tactical skills, and could at some point unleash a massive release of energy causing a huge explosion, damaging both, but stunning Supes just long enough for Goku to get his hands on him and do some damage. Still, Supes could still escape again, so tough to call it.
I see no reason to think Superman is faster than Goku. As I said above, Goku can and does use I.T. in battle, and I.T. allows him to move at several thousand times the speed of light. This is certain because he travels to other plantes in less than a second. Could you tell me just how fast Suerman is? I'd like to compare him to some characters. A speed or time elapsed for circumnavigation of the globe would do.
With retreat as an option, man that could take a while. If you want a definite outcome. Make it limited time,with the existence of both universes in the balance.
It'd take no longer than it did to defeat Buu. If the resulting losses are acceptable, tactical retreat is always an option. If you really want to make it limited time, though, I suspect they'd both eventually die when they destroy whatever planet they're on, though that's more a gut feeling than an argument.
No, he can't release a massive amount of energy, but he can (like anyone else) decide on the level of his attack (heat vision, breath, physical attack, etc.)
Okay. So why doesn't he? Give me something observed or an official source that backs up your claim of vast reserves of energy.
It could prove meaningful over a period of time.
If you can give supporting evidence, of course. This isn't O.J.'s trial.
I must agree with you on this (I think I'm agreeing). This was the point were the DB writers got it a little wrong. If you remember early on in DBZ when Picalo was training Gohan, Picalo destroyed the moon to bring Gohan back from his transformed state, and yet this should have been way out of Picalo's power, as it is stated that Frieza later on only then had the power capable of destroying a planet.
First of all...Did you just say the moon is a planet? Dear me. Here I thought it wasn't
For the love of God, bother to know what you're talking about. Roshi blew up the moon during one of the tournaments when Goku transformed into an ape. This was relatively early in Dragonball and was in the manga, making it definitely canon. Roshi's powe level was measured by Bulma to be 139 (at rest) early in DBZ, and, if you're paying attention, Nappa's PL is 4000. Frieza, before he's even in his final stage, has a PL over 1,000,000. Goku's PL far exceeds that. Kami later cut off Goku's tail while he was training under him and restored the moon. Piccolo later blew it up again when Gohan transformed. Moons are nothing. Planets are nothing.
Additionally, it was never said by anyone that only Frieza could destroy planets. He has, but so have others.
I always though we were using GT, otherwise things might be closer.
Yeah, without GT Superman has a chance to win. With GT, he'd be shamefully outmatched. I haven't used GT yet in this thread, though others have.
Like I said, this was a future Superman, and my guess (it's not revealed in the series), was that after his wife and parents passed on and he was comfortable that earth could be protected he might have wanted some rest. And he chose to get away.
I don't really see the relevance in this, but whatever. I asked why he didn't die from dehydration or starvation, that's all. I'm prepared to accept the fact that it happened. Suspension of disbelief is critical; it was observed, so it must be possible.
Supes' has a standard power level but if he stays within range of the sun for too long he can become over-powered and manifest extra abilities, etc. For instance, live much longer on a single breath of air - his cells become saturated with air.
We've established that, thanks.

As a note, I just realized someone thought hypnosis was Superman's ticket to sure victory. Roshi knows hypnosis, and has tried to use it on opponents, the only success being with a bizarre man-wolf (or something - he was like a reverse werewolf), and even then the guy had to submit to it voluntarily. Hypnosis is out.
As another note, Goku was able to read Krillin's mind once and was aware of Cell's emrgence in his sleep, actually saying that he could hear everyone clearly, even those who were a few thousand miles away. Aparently, though it's never explained, Goku has limited telepathic abilities. But, as it was observed, it is fact.
I'm realy surpirsed that no one's brought up the solar flare/tayoken as a potential self-defeating technique for Goku.

This argument is pointless. Neither character holds a candle to Captain Falcon.
OWNED.
That's a galactic rim. I mean like a few hundred thousand planets and stars were eaten up in that.

Besides that being irrelevant to an argument over who would win in a battle between Goku and Superman, I am now annoyed to have loaded that video over dial-up. (1) The rim was where the light emanated from, true, but we see no destruction of heavenly bodies. There's just the light. The only blast is seen in an atmosphere, seeing as there are clouds being pushed away. (2) Most of that light (and the comparatively small blast preceding it) seemed to come from the villain as he died, not the punch. This leads me to question whether that punch is always so spectacular (I have no knowledge to indicate such, but if you do, bravo). (3) DBZ blasts routinely throw off that much light, so I didn't see anything particularly interesting in the clip. If you want to discuss this, make a thread with the appropriate subject. This thread has its own topic.

[sataned]

ok your all forgetting the key element in a fight! and thats knowing how to fight! and GOku has the skill in fighting, super man relys on things he can throw at people , his speed,GOku is faster! watch some Justice league or super man fights vs someone and compare them to a DBZ fight DBz fights are way more intense and faster paced, and his laser eyes which i doubt can compare to gokus Super Kamehamehas or even a 10x Kamehameha... im pretty sure goku could wipe superman out with a Spirit bomb easy a FUll powered one!
and think about this! superman gets wooped on easily all the time GOKU can take out Universe Destroyers! like majin buu ...Plus it seems to me Goku has more will power and strenght when he needs it

seriously krillin, or tien or yamcha would be a better match for superman...

[TheAsterisk!]

ok your all forgetting the key element in a fight! and thats knowing how to fight! and GOku has the skill in fighting, super man relys on things he can throw at people , his speed,GOku is faster! watch some Justice league or super man fights vs someone and compare them to a DBZ fight DBz fights are way more intense and faster paced, and his laser eyes which i doubt can compare to gokus Super Kamehamehas or even a 10x Kamehameha... im pretty sure goku could wipe superman out with a Spirit bomb easy a FUll powered one!
and think about this! superman gets wooped on easily all the time GOKU can take out Universe Destroyers! like majin buu ...Plus it seems to me Goku has more will power and strenght when he needs it
Some of this could be better phrased, but I think I agree with most of it. Your approach is a little superficial, though. I would like to point out that Superman would just attack Goku while he formed the spirit bomb, making that attack undesirable unless Superman was already incapacitated. My money would be on the little chi discs Krillin likes to make. We know Goku can make them (he used one on Buu) and they seem to work well even on much stronger opponents (see Krillin v. Nappa).
seriously krillin, or tien or yamcha would be a better match for superman...
Now, now, let's be fair. That wouldn't work. Krillin was far more skilled than Nappa, but he didn't win, did he? Yamcha is a tactical ignoramus, so he's out. Tien simply wouldn't have the strength to inflict damage, and might end up killing himself accidentally 'cause of how dangerous his powerful attacks are. You could argue (though it'd be tough) that Krillin and Tien are able to take just as much as Superman, but neither are fast enough or can put out enough power to actually fight him with any chance of victory. The only way a combatant weaker than Superman could beat him would be through deception, cunning, and unusual abilities. Think Piccolo post-Buu.

[Sanosuke23]

Rebuttals to rebuttals.


Hmm... This would make a little sense if we diddn't bother to think about it. If, on any of the occaissions when Superman was in deep trouble, he could have simply released or used a larger amount of energy (instead of, say, struggling), why doesn't he? This seems suspiciously like the Trekkie argument that "you can't prove there's no massive planetary shields, so they must be there...unless you can disprove me." This is incorrect; they made the claim, so they must prove it. Similarly, you make a claim with nothing observed to support it. Until you can show me Superman releasing a mass of reserved energy (or official sources that say he can do so), I will consider it impossible. Go on.

It is comic book SCIENCE!, and it varies with author, generation, and plot convenience. Welcome to American comic book superheroes.

Slower is slower, and less power is less power. I'll also question your claim that even though Superman is slower he has better reaction time. Ignoring the contradiction here, I'll ask why you think a guy who can do what he does because he lives in a comparatively low gravity environment is faster than a guy from a race known as renowned conquerers and destroyers of planets. I now return to your apparent contradiction. If he has better reaction time but is slower, then Superman will see the punch coming and anticipate it, but lack the physical speed to take any meaningful action.

Superman is slower than instantaneous(hence the teleport which is the only thing I mentioned), but faster than any living thing that isn't directly connected to the Speed Force. It isn't a matter of being in a lower-gravity environment(it was at one point, but now he derives his power mostly from the sun), although the same could be said of Goku given his training methods. In terms of regular bodily speed, Superman should at least equal Goku, I'd think.

You can measure it, but it's horribly imprecise. If I had the motivation or the time, I could guess how much energy was pumped into a destroyed planet based on the size of it and how far or quickly the escaping 'chunks' flew. I will point out, though, that Vegeta blew up a planet early in DBZ by pointing at it.

I do believe there was "chi" involved in that pointing, good sir. Besides, considering that DBZ used its own measurement system for power levels without any real possibility of conversion it's all speculation.

Well...I'm not using GT, but this brings up the issue of what is canon. If GT isn't acceptable, then neither is a whole lot of the anime. I can dig out my manga if you want, but the debate will end pretty much the same way. Goku just won't have a tail and freaky fur, but instead lack his eyebrows.

Well, Toriyama himself considers GT noncanon, because he had nothing to do with it. As far as I know he has nothing against the Z anime or its movies.

I didn't realize he could spend so much time (10,000 years, right?) inside a star, what with the heat and lack of food or water. Impressive. I'd like to know more of this Superman.

Silver Age Superman is by and large the most broken, plot-armored character to ever exist. They increased the scope of his power to ridiculous levels, and gave him new powers to fit whatever plot they had stuck him in. Super-Ventriloquism that was usable in the vacuum of space, Super-Hypnosis, and yes even SUPER-WEAVING were part of his list of powers.

From the Wikipedia on Silver/Bronze Age Superman from the "Powers and Abilities of Superman" article:


Over time, Superman's strength was increased to the point where he could move entire planets. The character gained the power of true flight. Superman's speed increased to the point where he could travel faster than light. He could use this power to travel through time as well as fly to other worlds, solar systems and galaxies and even to other universes with relative ease, as shown in his visits to the 30th century as a member of the Legion of Super-Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Super-Heroes). By the 1970s, Superman was able to withstand the explosion of nuclear weapons with no risk whatsoever and fly unharmed through the core of a star. Superman was also able to regenerate physical damage to his body at an accelerated rate[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] and could survive without air, water, or food. Superman was immune to basically everything except for Kryptonite radiation and magic.
Superman possessed x-ray vision, allowing him to see through solid objects (except through lead), as well as telescopic vision (seeing great, even interstellar distances) and microscopic vision (seeing small things, even subatomic particles). These powers could be used individually or in conjunction with one another. His eyes could also perceive the full electromagnetic spectrum including infrared and ultraviolet frequencies of radiation. Originally depicted as a by-product of his x-ray vision, Superman's "heat vision" allowed him to generate energy beams which could be used to melt or vaporize almost any substance.
Superman could hear sound at almost any wavelength and at vast distances. Superman's breath was capable of freezing objects (because his lungs were able to put air under tremendous pressure, thus super-cooling it) and generating hurricane-force winds. Superman could throw his voice across great distances. This power was used to confuse enemies or protect his secret identity by tricking others into believing that he (or Clark Kent) was in a different location.
Superman possessed genius-level intelligence and an eidetic memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory). These enhanced mental capabilities were a direct result of his exposure to a yellow sun. Superman also possessed the mental ability to screen out the enormous amount of information received by his enhanced senses and to focus on a single detail such as a particular voice or location.
Writers of Superman experimented with new powers for the character. The abilities that proved popular became part of his regular repertoire, while others were discarded after a single use. In addition to his other super senses, Superman was occasionally shown as having highly-enhanced senses of touch and smell.

That doesn't accurately describe how truly broken Silver Age Superman truly is, but it's a good general overview.

[TheAsterisk!]

It is comic book SCIENCE!, and it varies with author, generation, and plot convenience. Welcome to American comic book superheroes.
Any science is based on observation. Here, we must suspend disbelief (treat it as if it were all real and observed) in order to argue effectively. Unless there's something to support an assertion, it is assumed to be false. If this wasn't done, I could claim Goku can transform into a Super Saiyan 12, but just hasn't wanted to before now. Obviously, that's ridiculous, but the pro-Superman folks are doing something similar, albeit less egregiously when they claim Superman has loads of extra power but give no supporting evidence.
Superman is slower than instantaneous(hence the teleport which is the only thing I mentioned), but faster than any living thing that isn't directly connected to the Speed Force. It isn't a matter of being in a lower-gravity environment(it was at one point, but now he derives his power mostly from the sun), although the same could be said of Goku given his training methods. In terms of regular bodily speed, Superman should at least equal Goku, I'd think.
This changes nothing. It's known that Goku can use I.T. in battle (it was used thrice on Cell - see above), so he's still faster.
I do believe there was "chi" involved in that pointing, good sir. Besides, considering that DBZ used its own measurement system for power levels without any real possibility of conversion it's all speculation.
What I was referring to is that, given a complete lack of other passtimes, I could figure out how many joules of energy were released based on the kinetic and gravitational potential energy of whatever is left of a planet that was destroyed. This guy (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/Alderaan.html) did something similar with Star Wars' Death Star (he types everything like it's propaganda, but it's just for giggles). If the sumarized page doesn't give you enough information, try here (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/DeathStar.html), where the reasoning is explained in much greater detail. If you don't understand the physics, I'm sorry. Once the energy released was known, we could divide the energy (joules) by the time (seconds) to get power (watts). Like I said, though, I'm not going to spend my time doing it because I don't really care quite that much. It can be done, but it's tedious and gives only rough estimates.
Well, Toriyama himself considers GT noncanon, because he had nothing to do with it. As far as I know he has nothing against the Z anime or its movies.
Well, I'm pretty sure he hates Broly, and he had a lot to do with the first (Dead Zone something or other) movie, but other than that only the manga is his work. If you threw out GT on the basis that it wasn't Toriyama's, then a lot of the anime must go too. Otherwise, why would you throw out GT? If there's another reason it isn't canon, I'd like to know.
The reason I haven't used GT Goku is because it wouldn't be any fun. That's all.
Silver Age Superman is by and large the most broken, plot-armored character to ever exist. They increased the scope of his power to ridiculous levels, and gave him new powers to fit whatever plot they had stuck him in. Super-Ventriloquism that was usable in the vacuum of space, Super-Hypnosis, and yes even SUPER-WEAVING were part of his list of powers.
Sounds just like GT Goku to me.

[Stu]

I never said Krillin coulod beat Superman. All I said was that even Krillin could take a small nuclear blast. This is to invalidate the claim that Superman's defenses are exceptional.


Sure, was just curious and expanding the conversation on Krillins power level.


Goku could go across the galaxy in a few seconds. He has a tremedous advantage. Superman could only go so far wihtout aid.


But Goku still needs more time to recuperate than Supes. That was my point.


Well, Dende isn't a combatant, but I can see ytour point. The run and heal argument still stands.


Yes, but it would all depend on where they were fighting, what universe, wouldn't it. Now if it was neutral ground then the run-and-heal argument wouldn't work so well in favour of Goku.


Goku used I.T. three times against Cell. It does work if need be.


Here's what I remember:
- He IT'd above Cell and then threatended to use a Kamehameha.
- When Cell had become a living bomb and was about to explode, he transported Cell away.
- What was the third?
Now even in these two instances it's not the speed of IT that is being used as a strategy but the ability transport distances. Again I say IT's speed would not prove useful as a weapon, eg. IT is not controlled travelling at high speed's unlike where Superman actually can change direction while flying, etc.


1 - Space is not devoid of sunlight. There's plenty.
2 - Inside he can still get sunlight. Heard of a window?
3 - I could argue that, since the moon reflects sunlight, he is still getting a little energy at night (barring a new moon or lunar eclipse), but I could also say that the Lord Slug comment was made for giggles. Stop worrying about it so much.


1. Yes, but not always.
2. Again not always.
Look I could argue the above points, and make many more, but you're nitpicking my points, and changing the direction of my point, which was that he doesn't use up his stored energy at a fast pace.


I see no reason to think Superman is faster than Goku. As I said above, Goku can and does use I.T. in battle, and I.T. allows him to move at several thousand times the speed of light. This is certain because he travels to other plantes in less than a second. Could you tell me just how fast Suerman is? I'd like to compare him to some characters. A speed or time elapsed for circumnavigation of the globe would do.


Again, see my point above, technically, Goku can IT to a point but not chnage direction to compensate for a foe movements, etc.
Good question, I don't know but can check on his speed...


It'd take no longer than it did to defeat Buu. If the resulting losses are acceptable, tactical retreat is always an option. If you really want to make it limited time, though, I suspect they'd both eventually die when they destroy whatever planet they're on, though that's more a gut feeling than an argument.


Goku might do that, but I don't thinbk Supes has the power to do that. (Modern Age Superman that is).


Okay. So why doesn't he? Give me something observed or an official source that backs up your claim of vast reserves of energy.


You're not listening to what I'm saying. I actually think I'm agreeing with you on this - if you throw a punch, can you vary the intensity of that punch? Or if you blow out a candle, can you vary the strength with which you blow. This is my point, that Superman can do the same but just on a different level.


If you can give supporting evidence, of course. This isn't O.J.'s trial.


If you punch a brick wall enough times with your bare knuckles, it will crack.


First of all...Did you just say the moon is a planet? Dear me. Here I thought it wasn't
For the love of God, bother to know what you're talking about. Roshi blew up the moon during one of the tournaments when Goku transformed into an ape. This was relatively early in Dragonball and was in the manga, making it definitely canon. Roshi's powe level was measured by Bulma to be 139 (at rest) early in DBZ, and, if you're paying attention, Nappa's PL is 4000. Frieza, before he's even in his final stage, has a PL over 1,000,000. Goku's PL far exceeds that. Kami later cut off Goku's tail while he was training under him and restored the moon. Piccolo later blew it up again when Gohan transformed. Moons are nothing. Planets are nothing.
Additionally, it was never said by anyone that only Frieza could destroy planets. He has, but so have others.


I wasn't worried aboout the classification of what makes a planet, but rather the scale of attack it would take to destroy something that size.
I am well aware of Roshi blowing up the Moon (but chose the Gohan example). No, no, no, planets are not nothing. That's my point, and where the writers got it wrong (but hey, whatever) if Roshi could destroy a planet-like body with that low power level, just think about all those stray blasts of Freiza's on Namek, or Cells, or Buu's. Frieza purposely unleashed a massive blast to destroy Namek but it didn't work. So how could Roshi do it so easily where his blast still had to travel that distance to the moon.


Yeah, without GT Superman has a chance to win. With GT, he'd be shamefully outmatched. I haven't used GT yet in this thread, though others have.


We agree then FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=0", Superman would be outmatched in (physical power) against a post-GT Goku.


I don't really see the relevance in this, but whatever. I asked why he didn't die from dehydration or starvation, that's all. I'm prepared to accept the fact that it happened. Suspension of disbelief is critical; it was observed, so it must be possible.


Right, well you said you would like to know more about this Superman? So I elaborated for you... Think of it as hybernation then.



We've established that, thanks.


Yes, well I mentioned it because it starts to show how he could survive in the sun for that long with no need for food, etc. though I could go on if you like...


As a note, I just realized someone thought hypnosis was Superman's ticket to sure victory. Roshi knows hypnosis, and has tried to use it on opponents, the only success being with a bizarre man-wolf (or something - he was like a reverse werewolf), and even then the guy had to submit to it voluntarily. Hypnosis is out.


Besides. I don't think modern day Supes has that ability.


I'm realy surpirsed that no one's brought up the solar flare/tayoken as a potential self-defeating technique for Goku.


Elaborate further...

[Stu]

It is comic book SCIENCE!, and it varies with author, generation, and plot convenience. Welcome to American comic book superheroes.


You have to admit though that modern day Superman's powers have been written without a change in power level. They have been consistant.


Superman is slower than instantaneous(hence the teleport which is the only thing I mentioned), but faster than any living thing that isn't directly connected to the Speed Force. It isn't a matter of being in a lower-gravity environment(it was at one point, but now he derives his power mostly from the sun), although the same could be said of Goku given his training methods. In terms of regular bodily speed, Superman should at least equal Goku, I'd think.


Yes I would say, unlike Goku Superman's Power/Speed ratio is not equal.



Silver Age Superman is by and large the most broken, plot-armored character to ever exist. They increased the scope of his power to ridiculous levels, and gave him new powers to fit whatever plot they had stuck him in. Super-Ventriloquism that was usable in the vacuum of space, Super-Hypnosis, and yes even SUPER-WEAVING were part of his list of powers.


Yeah I'm not that familiar with the Silverage Supes but Super-Ventriloquism was indeed one of his powers!

[Stu]

Ok, just consulted some Superman guys and the general (sort of) consensus is that Supes' maximum speed is between 300,000,000 mph - 99% Speed of light, and 30,000 mph when running.
Though when he is in the atmosphere he could be slower at 60,000 mph.

Another strategy that I was reminded of was that Superman can breath for much longer periods in space, and that combined with his speed could give him a significant advantage if he could get Goku into space.

Though this would also depend on whether we are talking a DBZ or DBGT Goku.

[TA'sSchizoidConscience]

Here's what I remember:
- He IT'd above Cell and then threatended to use a Kamehameha.
- When Cell had become a living bomb and was about to explode, he transported Cell away.
- What was the third?
Hey...yeah...I told him that, cause I know DBZ, and TheAsterisk! needed help.
Here's what I remember for I.T. in battle.
1 - He dogded Cell's kamehameha in book 18/34. He jumped in the air, called Cell's attention to him, then I.T.ed behind him and kicked him.
2 - Goku teleporteed to use his kemehameha close up.
3 - Goku took Cell to the North Kai's planet. Poor blue bugger.
Goku also used I.T at least once to dogde some of Kid Buu's attacks on the planet of the Kais.
Now even in these two instances it's not the speed of IT that is being used as a strategy but the ability transport distances. Again I say IT's speed would not prove useful as a weapon, eg. IT is not controlled travelling at high speed's unlike where Superman actually can change direction while flying, etc.
Since when can DB characters only fly in a straight line?
...Oh! You think I.T. is point to point! Well, even though that's true, it can be controlled finely. See, Goku needs a chi source to orient himself, but he doesn't really need to I.T. to right next to that chi. He uses it as a reference point for navigation. That's why he can go behind Cell, in front of Cell, away from K. Buu, an a whole bunch of other places.

[Stu]

Hey...yeah...I told him that, cause I know DBZ, and TheAsterisk! needed help.
Here's what I remember for I.T. in battle.
1 - He dogded Cell's kamehameha in book 18/34. He jumped in the air, called Cell's attention to him, then I.T.ed behind him and kicked him.
2 - Goku teleporteed to use his kemehameha close up.
3 - Goku took Cell to the North Kai's planet. Poor blue bugger.
Goku also used I.T at least once to dogde some of Kid Buu's attacks on the planet of the Kais.


Cool, thanks for that! I haven't watched the Cell saga in a while - time to pull them out! :)

Since when can DB characters only fly in a straight line?

:)


...Oh! You think I.T. is point to point! Well, even though that's true, it can be controlled finely. See, Goku needs a chi source to orient himself, but he doesn't really need to I.T. to right next to that chi. He uses it as a reference point for navigation. That's why he can go behind Cell, in front of Cell, away from K. Buu, an a whole bunch of other places.


Yeah, you make a good point here that he can actually teleport within a wide/close distance of that person using the chi source as a base point. I still maintain that Superman at high speed would be flying too fast for Goku's IT to be very useful in some kind of ambush.

[Sanosuke23]

Hey...yeah...I told him that, cause I know DBZ, and TheAsterisk! needed help.
Here's what I remember for I.T. in battle.
1 - He dogded Cell's kamehameha in book 18/34. He jumped in the air, called Cell's attention to him, then I.T.ed behind him and kicked him.
2 - Goku teleporteed to use his kemehameha close up.
3 - Goku took Cell to the North Kai's planet. Poor blue bugger.
Goku also used I.T at least once to dogde some of Kid Buu's attacks on the planet of the Kais.

Since when can DB characters only fly in a straight line?
...Oh! You think I.T. is point to point! Well, even though that's true, it can be controlled finely. See, Goku needs a chi source to orient himself, but he doesn't really need to I.T. to right next to that chi. He uses it as a reference point for navigation. That's why he can go behind Cell, in front of Cell, away from K. Buu, an a whole bunch of other places.

BUT, can he IT his fist to your face with the impact of a punch? THAT is what I was getting at. It is a means of transportation and not his actual physical movement. As in, he can IT past walls, but by doing so doesn't put a hole in said wall. When you get down to hand-to-hand combat, IT will help maneuver, but will it help him attack?

[TheAsterisk!]

But Goku still needs more time to recuperate than Supes.
That was my point.
And my point is that, because I.T. is a load faster than
Superman, Goku will be recuperating far enough away that by the time Supes can
reach him, he'll be ready to fight again.
Yes, but it would all depend on where they were fighting, what universe,
wouldn't it. Now if it was neutral ground then the run-and-heal argument
wouldn't work so well in favour of Goku.
What "neutral ground?" Explain yourself.
Here's what I remember:
- He IT'd above Cell and then threatended to use a Kamehameha.
- When Cell had become a living bomb and was about to explode, he transported
Cell away.
- What was the third?
My brother, the resdident DB(Z)(GT) continuity expert, gave me that figure. I
think he explained it above.
Now even in these two instances it's not the speed of IT that is
being used as a strategy but the ability transport distances. Again I say IT's
speed would not prove useful as a weapon, eg. IT is not controlled travelling
at high speed's unlike where Superman actually can change direction while
flying, etc.
No, it is fast. That's good for long distances, true, but that's because Goku
wouldn't want to spend months travelling to planets when he could get there in
under a second. I think TA's argument about I.T.'s manueverability is decent,
too. The chi source needed is for navigation. Goku doesn't actually have to
teleport to right next to the chi. The chi source is to Goku's I.T. as the
North Star is to stellar navigation. And the fact that it doesn't change
direction mid-transmission matters little; wit its tremendous speed advantage,
several ITs can be made in quick succession.
1. Yes, but not always.
2. Again not always.
Look I could argue the above points, and make many more, but you're nitpicking
my points, and changing the direction of my point, which was that he doesn't
use up his stored energy at a fast pace.
1 - Always. The sun is a yellow star. Space is where the stars are.
2 - Most of the time, though.
3 - I'm notnitpicking, I'm attacking your arguments. You said that he could
live wihtout the sun's light (and maintain his energy levels) and for support
you cited that he's been in space. I said that since there are stars in space,
he is still getting light from yellow stars, and so it has no relevance to his
ability to live and fight without said yellow stars' light. The window bit was
just the cherry on top.
Again, see my point above, technically, Goku can IT to a point but not
chnage direction to compensate for a foe movements, etc.
LIke I said above, multiple ITs could be employed. This means that while each
IT is straight-line, the overall movement is as flexible as need be.
Good question, I don't know but can check on his speed...
Please do.
Goku might do that, but I don't thinbk Supes has the power to do that.
(Modern Age Superman that is).
Yes. I fit was truly a fight for the universe(s) with limited time, it would
be like Goku to sacrifice himself and one planet for all of existence. Kinda a
boring scenario, though.
You're not listening to what I'm saying. I actually think I'm agreeing
with you on this - if you throw a punch, can you vary the intensity of
that punch? Or if you blow out a candle, can you vary the strength with which
you blow. This is my point, that Superman can do the same but just on a
different level.
I didn't contest that. What I contested was the assertion that Superman has
hordes of power that we've not yet seen that he stored up like a battery. If
you want to talk about his maximum power output, you must use the greatest
output(s) observed, not arguents that there's more we haven't seen. I know
power can be varied, but I dont believe that SUperman has extra power
beyond the maximum observed since there's no evidence for it.
If you punch a brick wall enough times with your bare knuckles, it will
crack.
No, your hand will crack first, I guarantee it. Besides, the brick wall is an
idiotic analogy since it can't fight back. Goku will retaliate.
I wasn't worried aboout the classification of what makes a planet, but
rather the scale of attack it would take to destroy something that size.
I am well aware of Roshi blowing up the Moon (but chose the Gohan example). No,
no, no, planets are not nothing. That's my point, and where the writers got it
wrong (but hey, whatever) if Roshi could destroy a planet-like body with that
low power level, just think about all those stray blasts of Freiza's on Namek,
or Cells, or Buu's. Frieza purposely unleashed a massive blast to destroy Namek
but it didn't work. So how could Roshi do it so easily where his blast still
had to travel that distance to the moon.
1 - If planets are not just "nothings" in the sceme of DB, then the powers of
the characters in the franchise are just that much more impressive.
2 - I would think that Frieza, (at that time) being the strongest thing in the
universe, would have had a bit more control over his attacks than Roshi. DO
try to remember, too, that Namek had ten times Earth's gravity and so ten times
Earth's mass. It's a much bigger planet. Cell seemed like the smartest
villain ever in the series, and I'd bet he had a way of controlling his own
attacks. Buu did destroy the planet eventually, right? Applicable to all
three (and other) villains is how the stray attacks impacted. All the planet
killing attacks we see are aimed roughly perpendicular to the ground, straight
through the center of the planet. Stray blasts would almost always hit the
ground at an angle. That might have something to do with it. Again, though,
it was observed that the stray attacks didn't kill planets but that deliberate
attampt to do so did, and so this is fact.
3 - It doesn't matter if the "writers got it wrong." It was observed, so it
had to have happened. Do I really have to keep explaining this idea?
We agree then FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=0", Superman would be outmatched
in (physical power) against a post-GT Goku.
Yes, shamefully so. I am saying that he is also outclassed by post-Buu Goku,
just less so. Actually, though he isn't as good a fighter, Gohan would be
stronger than Goku post-Buu. Just a little fun note.
Right, well you said you would like to know more about this Superman? So
I elaborated for you... Think of it as hybernation then.
Interesting, if typical of comics. The bears will become jealous when they
learn of Superman's hibernation prowess, though. We'd better keep an eye out
for 'em.
Yes, well I mentioned it because it starts to show how he could survive
in the sun for that long with no need for food, etc. though I could go on if
you like...
In the sun. It doesn't sount because Superman seems to be able to withstand
anything sunny. It has no consequence other than a potential power-up.
Besides. I don't think modern day Supes has that ability.
Well, I just thought I'd point it out.
Elaborate further...
The solar flare (tayoken) technique blinds opponents by manipulating and
magnifying the sun's light (and it's other radiation). It probably wouldn't
work too well on Superman 'cause he rooms with the sun.
Ok, just consulted some Superman guys and the general (sort of)
consensus is that Supes' maximum speed is between 300,000,000 mph - 99% Speed
of light, and 30,000 mph when running.
Though when he is in the atmosphere he could be slower at 60,000 mph.
Okay. Let me do this piecemiel. The speed of light ("c") is 299,792,458 m/s
(meters per second). This comes out to 107,987,547 km/h (kilometers per hour)
once you do the necessary unit conversions. This, in turn is 670,616,629.1
mi/h (miles per hour) (1 kilometer = 0.621371192 miles). The speed of light is
670,616,629.1 mph. This means that Superman's speed of 300,000,000 mph is not
0.99c, but instead is about 0.447c, or around 44.7% the speed of light.
So...Goku's IT is superluminal (faster than light) and Superman, while insanely
fast, is comparatively crawling. Check the math when using others' figures,
please.
The idea that Superman zips about the atmosphere at 60,000 mph is silly. Mach
1 ( the speed of sound) is about 700 mph a little above sea level. This means
that Superman is supposedly travelling at Mach 85.7. If a guy flies around at
85.7 times the speed of sound, the sonic boom should be absolutely incredible.
Similar circumstnces apply for the claim that Superman runs at Mach 42.9.
However, since there is also a conspicuous lack of sonic booms in the
Dragonball franchise (and they talk at the same time, too!), I'll let this part
go.
Another strategy that I was reminded of was that Superman can
[hold his] breath for much longer periods in space, and
that combined with his speed could give him a significant advantage if he could
get Goku into space.
1 - We've seen Vegeta do this, even though Frieza claims otherwise. Vegeta was
definitely in space when he blew up Arlia. The entire planet was neatly in
view.
2 - Why would Goku fight Superman on his terms? In a fight (or argument), one
can simply refuse another's game and ease the conflict in a more favorable
direction. Goku'd stay on the planet, hitting Superman with energy attacks if
necessary.
3 – I invalidated claims that Superman possesses superior speed above.
Though this would also depend on whether we are talking a DBZ or DBGT
Goku.
Everyone knows it depends at this point. I've said so, you've said so, everybody in the thread has said so. You don't need to reiterate it each and every time you post.

My brother would like to add that Piccolo was seen producing a nuclear sized blast in book 16 (“Tale 190: Piccolo Destroys Everything!”) of Dragonball. If he, with a puny power level of 300 or so, could produce a nuclear warhead equivalent blast, and if, as Stu claimed earlier, Superman is not invulnerable to a nuclear weapon, then any of the DBZ characters can produce enough power to do away with him. I should point out they'd still lack the necessary speed, though. TA'sSC wanted to put this in his previous post, but I am not about to let him get his sticky fingers near my keyboard.

BUT, can he IT his fist to your face with the impact of a punch? THAT is what I was getting at. It is a means of transportation and not his actual physical movement. As in, he can IT past walls, but by doing so doesn't put a hole in said wall. When you get down to hand-to-hand combat, IT will help maneuver, but will it help him attack?
Um...Yes. Maneuvering is how one positions oneself favorably in order to attack, no? If Goku has such an advantage in speed (see my responses to Stu in this post), then it doesn't really matter if IT is the attack itself. He could evade and advance with such impunity that an opening for attack would present itself.

[Sanosuke23]

But again, Superman's reaction time and speed is such that ASIDE FROM THE ACT OF TELEPORTATION Supes could equal if not exceed Goku's Punches of Variable Speed for Dramatic Effect.

As for the strength of beam attacks, etc., that alone doesn't measure a person's overall PL.

Really though, this is getting more than a little insane. Besides, in a fight for their respective universes they'd still both join forces to beat whoever set up the fight, even if they both thought they couldn't win.

[TheAsterisk!]

But again, Superman's reaction time and speed is such that ASIDE FROM THE ACT OF TELEPORTATION Supes could equal if not exceed Goku's Punches of Variable Speed for Dramatic Effect.
Reaction time is how quickly your mind reacts. It doesn't matter if Superman's mind reacts quicker to an approaching fist since he lacks the physical speed and agility.
As for the strength of beam attacks, etc., that alone doesn't measure a person's overall PL.
I never said they did, they're just the easiest way to figure out the lower limit of a given character's power. Superpowered punches and kicks landing on superpowered opponents can't be measured. Something passive must be destroyed, like a city or a planet.
Really though, this is getting more than a little insane.
Quite.
Besides, in a fight for their respective universes they'd still both join forces to beat whoever set up the fight, even if they both thought they couldn't win.
(Wags finger.) The OP asked which would win in a fight between the two. It did not ask if they would fight in the first place. Their battling is a given in the thread.
...
Though I do agree they probably wouldn't fight in the first place.

[Stu]

And my point is that, because I.T. is a load faster than
Superman, Goku will be recuperating far enough away that by the time Supes can reach him, he'll be ready to fight again.


Yeah, I think this point has been exausted. Let's just agree that they could both recuperate in time.


What "neutral ground?" Explain yourself.


Well, I meant no advantages for eithe one. Dende really.


No, it is fast. That's good for long distances, true, but that's because Goku wouldn't want to spend months travelling to planets when he could get there in under a second. I think TA's argument about I.T.'s manueverability is decent, too. The chi source needed is for navigation. Goku doesn't actually have to teleport to right next to the chi. The chi source is to Goku's I.T. as the North Star is to stellar navigation. And the fact that it doesn't change direction mid-transmission matters little; wit its tremendous speed advantage, several ITs can be made in quick succession.


I'm not arguing that it's not fast. I agree it's fast.
No, I disagree, from what I've seen. It would be impossible for Goku to do multiple IT's to follow a fast moving Superman. Travelling at those speeds it would be near impossible for Goku to focus on his chi. Remember when Goku is about to transport, he focuses, finds the chi, and then transports. With a constantly moving Superman, locking onto that chi, maybe ok, but then continuing a chain of IT's would not seem possible.
Besides from what we saw of Supreme Kai's IT, it would soon drain Goku performing constant IT's as was shown in DBZ when he couldn't transport when Goku was fighting Buu.



1 - Always. The sun is a yellow star. Space is where the stars are.
2 - Most of the time, though.
3 - I'm notnitpicking, I'm attacking your arguments. You said that he could
live wihtout the sun's light (and maintain his energy levels) and for support
you cited that he's been in space. I said that since there are stars in space, he is still getting light from yellow stars, and so it has no relevance to his ability to live and fight without said yellow stars' light. The window bit was just the cherry on top.


No, there are areas without yellow stars, or that are blocked from the rays. Are you telling me that no matter were you are in the universe you will always be in contact or line-of-sight of a yellow star.
Ok, but my argument stands - he doesn't need constant access to sunlight to remain powered. Night time is a perfect example, and the reflection of the moon idea is streching it somewhat. :)


LIke I said above, multiple ITs could be employed. This means that while each IT is straight-line, the overall movement is as flexible as need be.


Not a chance is IT flexible, if it was that flexible, he would have used it constatly so as not to get hit when fighting all of his opponents. Check my arguments above regarding this, but IT is a rigid transportation technique. No where near flexible enough to follow Supes fly at very high speed. Compare it to shrowing a dart at a moving target, as soon as the dart is thrown, the target has already moved.


Yes. I fit was truly a fight for the universe(s) with limited time, it would
be like Goku to sacrifice himself and one planet for all of existence. Kinda a
boring scenario, though.


Might be a bad strategy on Goku's part though as Supes could survive and fly to another planet.


I didn't contest that. What I contested was the assertion that Superman has hordes of power that we've not yet seen that he stored up like a battery. If you want to talk about his maximum power output, you must use the greatest output(s) observed, not arguents that there's more we haven't seen. I know power can be varied, but I dont believe that SUperman has extra power beyond the maximum observed since there's no evidence for it.


Ok, but I never said that he did. Again you/we have to agree on maximum power ouput observed.


No, your hand will crack first, I guarantee it. Besides, the brick wall is an
idiotic analogy since it can't fight back. Goku will retaliate.


Come on, that was an extreme example. Supes' hand won't break when hitting Goku, but it will do some damage, and multiply that over a period of time and my point is proved. I never said he wouldn't retaliate, but that's why we are having the speed argument - Goku's anticipation of a high speed punch.


1 - If planets are not just "nothings" in the sceme of DB, then the powers of the characters in the franchise are just that much more impressive.
2 - I would think that Frieza, (at that time) being the strongest thing in the universe, would have had a bit more control over his attacks than Roshi. DO try to remember, too, that Namek had ten times Earth's gravity and so ten times Earth's mass. It's a much bigger planet. Cell seemed like the smartest villain ever in the series, and I'd bet he had a way of controlling his own attacks. Buu did destroy the planet eventually, right? Applicable to all three (and other) villains is how the stray attacks impacted. All the planet killing attacks we see are aimed roughly perpendicular to the ground, straight through the center of the planet. Stray blasts would almost always hit the ground at an angle. That might have something to do with it. Again, though, it was observed that the stray attacks didn't kill planets but that deliberate attampt to do so did, and so this is fact.
3 - It doesn't matter if the "writers got it wrong." It was observed, so it
had to have happened. Do I really have to keep explaining this idea?


1- Yeah, I think they got it slightly wrong there, but hey no one's perfect.
2- No deliberate attempts did not always blow up planets (my point - they should easily have) becasue if Frieza did indeed have that extra control then that actually proves my point, that he WOULD have blown up Namek very very easily with the attack that he unleashed. Remember it was attack into the core of Namek, and should have obliterated Namek.
I think the stray blasts at an angle is a weak argument, 1, becasue they are NOT always at an angle and 2, just because it's at an angle doesn't mean it wouldn't always have THAT much less of an effect.


Yes, shamefully so. I am saying that he is also outclassed by post-Buu Goku, just less so. Actually, though he isn't as good a fighter, Gohan would be stronger than Goku post-Buu. Just a little fun note.


You know it's weird, but the more I study this scenario, the more I think Supes might actually have a chance of winning. Remember Supes almost never fights at his maximum no holds bared. It would be quite something to seem an all out fight.


Interesting, if typical of comics. The bears will become jealous when they
learn of Superman's hibernation prowess, though. We'd better keep an eye out for 'em.


The hybernation comment was just my guess - I'm not sure how he was able to live that long, but who knows with a constant charge from the sun.


In the sun. It doesn't sount because Superman seems to be able to withstand anything sunny. It has no consequence other than a potential power-up.


I'm not sure what you mean by this comment, could you explain further.


The solar flare (tayoken) technique blinds opponents by manipulating and
magnifying the sun's light (and it's other radiation). It probably wouldn't
work too well on Superman 'cause he rooms with the sun.


Yeah thought you meant using it as a technique against Supes.


Okay. Let me do this piecemiel. The speed of light ("c") is 299,792,458 m/s (meters per second). This comes out to 107,987,547 km/h (kilometers per hour) once you do the necessary unit conversions. This, in turn is 670,616,629.1 mi/h (miles per hour) (1 kilometer = 0.621371192 miles). The speed of light is 670,616,629.1 mph. This means that Superman's speed of 300,000,000 mph is not 0.99c, but instead is about 0.447c, or around 44.7% the speed of light.


I'll take your word on that. OK, try this: from 50% - 99% of speed of light is around where his speed is. Though I think it's more around the 99% side.


So...Goku's IT is superluminal (faster than light) and Superman, while insanely fast, is comparatively crawling. Check the math when using others' figures, please.


What speed is IT suppose to be?


The idea that Superman zips about the atmosphere at 60,000 mph is silly. Mach 1 ( the speed of sound) is about 700 mph a little above sea level. This means that Superman is supposedly travelling at Mach 85.7. If a guy flies around at 85.7 times the speed of sound, the sonic boom should be absolutely incredible.
Similar circumstnces apply for the claim that Superman runs at Mach 42.9.
However, since there is also a conspicuous lack of sonic booms in the
Dragonball franchise (and they talk at the same time, too!), I'll let this part go.


No, it's not silly because while he can travel that fast, and (sometimes does) he does not travel that fast when he doesn't need to. Superman hardley ever runs.
The Flash family on the other hand do run at high those high speeds, but have a field that protects their surroundings, Superman doesn't have that field, as far as I know.


1 - We've seen Vegeta do this, even though Frieza claims otherwise. Vegeta was definitely in space when he blew up Arlia. The entire planet was neatly in view.
2 - Why would Goku fight Superman on his terms? In a fight (or argument), one can simply refuse another's game and ease the conflict in a more favorable direction. Goku'd stay on the planet, hitting Superman with energy attacks if necessary.
3 – I invalidated claims that Superman possesses superior speed above.


1 - Yes, but Superman would have the advantage here, I'm not saying that Goku can't fight in space, but that Superman would have a big advantage.
2 - And why would Superman stay on the planet and fight on Goku's terms... - let's not play this out too much, I'm merely arguing the different scenarios if they actually happened, not what scenarios would take place, or in what order. Oh, and like you said Superman would fight back and dodge the energy attacks, he's not a rag doll you know.
3 - No you didn't, you should really rethink this IT argument. I enjoy the DBZ stuff as well, and I was for a Goku win, so I don't think I'm really biased one way or the other but I just don't see it possible for IT to be used as a constant transport method. It's IT not Constant Transmission. For example, when Goku, had It'd Superman could be on him in a Flash, and Goku would still need to concentrate before he IT'd again.

Everyone knows it depends at this point. I've said so, you've said so, everybody in the thread has said so. You don't need to reiterate it each and every time you post.

As you wish.

My brother would like to add that Piccolo was seen producing a nuclear sized blast in book 16 (“Tale 190: Piccolo Destroys Everything!”) of Dragonball. If he, with a puny power level of 300 or so, could produce a nuclear warhead equivalent blast, and if, as Stu claimed earlier, Superman is not invulnerable to a nuclear weapon, then any of the DBZ characters can produce enough power to do away with him. I should point out they'd still lack the necessary speed, though. TA'sSC wanted to put this in his previous post, but I am not about to let him get his sticky fingers near my keyboard.

Again, I think was an inconsistency in the writing. But this is understandable in the DB to DBZ transition.
Then their physical attack would be so out of proportion to their physical attack.


Um...Yes. Maneuvering is how one positions oneself favorably in order to attack, no? If Goku has such an advantage in speed (see my responses to Stu in this post), then it doesn't really matter if IT is the attack itself. He could evade and advance with such impunity that an opening for attack would present itself.


Remember, those seconds of concentration that it takes to IT is all that Supes needs to take advantage of IT. Those few secs are also why IT would not work.

Man, I think that's my longest post ever on the internet!

[Stu]

But again, Superman's reaction time and speed is such that ASIDE FROM THE ACT OF TELEPORTATION Supes could equal if not exceed Goku's Punches of Variable Speed for Dramatic Effect.
I agree that Supes' reaction time is just so much faster than Goku's. And we see what a crucial role this played in the battle against Cell.


Really though, this is getting more than a little insane. Besides, in a fight for their respective universes they'd still both join forces to beat whoever set up the fight, even if they both thought they couldn't win.


:)
It seems though that most of the debate has turned to how effective Goku's IT is, and what he can and can't do with it.

[TheAsterisk!]

Firstly, do you know where the "EDIT" button is? If so, use it. If not, I'll be glad to show you. I'm sick of you double and triple posting.
Yeah, I think this point has been exausted. Let's just agree that they could both recuperate in time.
No. Goku has a tremendous speed adavantage. If Goku runs to heal, it will take Superman so long to reach him he'll be ready to fight by then. If Superman tries to run, Goku will easily catch. See the calculations concerning IT and Superman's supposed top speed of 0.447c.
Well, I meant no advantages for eithe one. Dende really.
Sorry. I thought you literally meant unaffiliated territory. No sidekicks and/or assistance is reasonable.
I'm not arguing that it's not fast. I agree it's fast.
No, I disagree, from what I've seen. It would be impossible for Goku to do multiple IT's to follow a fast moving Superman. Travelling at those speeds it would be near impossible for Goku to focus on his chi. Remember when Goku is about to transport, he focuses, finds the chi, and then transports. With a constantly moving Superman, locking onto that chi, maybe ok, but then continuing a chain of IT's would not seem possible.
He focuses when the chi is distant. Seeing the person helps in sensing chi. If Goku and Superman are fighting, they'll see each other. Goku didn't have to focus for a minute when he used in on Cell, remember? A chain of ITs would be spectacular, but not implausible.
Besides from what we saw of Supreme Kai's IT, it would soon drain Goku performing constant IT's as was shown in DBZ when he couldn't transport when Goku was fighting Buu.
The Supreme Kai can't even do IT or any koind of teleportation. Kibito, his version o' Mr. Popo, can teleport, but it isn't IT. Kibito can teleport anywhere whether or not there is a chi there to lock onto to. It's not IT, so it can't be used to describe IT. The Supreme Kai can only teleport after he is fused with Kibito using the potara.
No, there are areas without yellow stars, or that are blocked from the rays. Are you telling me that no matter were you are in the universe you will always be in contact or line-of-sight of a yellow star.
Cite when Superman was in space and a yellow star was not in view.
Ok, but my argument stands - he doesn't need constant access to sunlight to remain powered. Night time is a perfect example, and the reflection of the moon idea is streching it somewhat. :) I didnt think the moon was a reach, but I'll leave this one be.
Not a chance is IT flexible, if it was that flexible, he would have used it constatly so as not to get hit when fighting all of his opponents. Check my arguments above regarding this, but IT is a rigid transportation technique. No where near flexible enough to follow Supes fly at very high speed. Compare it to shrowing a dart at a moving target, as soon as the dart is thrown, the target has already moved.
Once again, Goku needn't go where the chi is at the instant he teleports. He uses the chi as a navigational aid. If Superman is flying, the current position of his chi and his actions can be used to anticipate where he'll be in a few moments. It's like leading your fire (http://www.answers.com/topic/leading-fire). Leading your fire would also work with the dart, by the way.
Might be a bad strategy on Goku's part though as Supes could survive and fly to another planet.
I don't think you understand how much energy would be realeased to destroy a planet and scatter its mass. Every chunk of anything on the planet would have to be accelerated to at least escape velocity. Superman, or anything else for that matter, would have no chance of surviving a planet's destruction if they're on the surface or in the atmosphere.
Ok, but I never said that he did. Again you/we have to agree on maximum power ouput observed.
It was said, though I don't really know if you said it. We can find out minimum power output, but we'll never really know the maximum. What I mean by this is that we can tell, based on observed blasts, what they must be putting out at the least.
Come on, that was an extreme example. Supes' hand won't break when hitting Goku, but it will do some damage, and multiply that over a period of time and my point is proved. I never said he wouldn't retaliate, but that's why we are having the speed argument - Goku's anticipation of a high speed punch.
You didn't say "Supe's hand" and "Goku," you said "your hand" and "brick wall." It was a dumb comparison. Secondly, attacks usually don't multiply over time if they cause no damage to begin with. If it inflics no harm, there is nothing to recover from before the next try. The only way attacks build on each other is if each inflicts damage. Then, the opponent is sufferin gfrom that damage while dealing with more attacks. Superman has to be able to give Goku a booboo with each hit or each harmless hit means absolutely nothing.
1- Yeah, I think they got it slightly wrong there, but hey no one's perfect.
It was observed. They can blow up planets with power levels under 200.
2- No deliberate attempts did not always blow up planets (my point - they should easily have) becasue if Frieza did indeed have that extra control then that actually proves my point, that he WOULD have blown up Namek very very easily with the attack that he unleashed. Remember it was attack into the core of Namek, and should have obliterated Namek.
IT DID. HAVE YOU WATCHED THE ANIME OR READ THE MANGA AT ALL?
(sighs)
It took longer than it should have because Frieza was attacked while forming the blast. This was a failed attack, at much less than full power, that destroyed Namek.
I think the stray blasts at an angle is a weak argument, 1, becasue they are NOT always at an angle and 2, just because it's at an angle doesn't mean it wouldn't always have THAT much less of an effect.
IT DOESN"T MATTER WHY IT DIDN'T HAPPEN OR IF IT SHOULD HAVE! IT WAS OBSERVED! IF SOMETHING IS KNOWN TO HAVE HAPPENED, IT CANNOT BE IMPOSSIBLE. If you cannot grasp this simple idea, you have no business posting in a debate.
I offered up the angles idea as an off hand comment. I don't need to explain why those blasts didn't kill planets, because it was observed. It is fact. It needs no proof, you imbecile!
I would suspect they simply don't use such powerful attacks because they don't want to blow themselves up along with the planet they're standing on. Self-preservation is important.
You know it's weird, but the more I study this scenario, the more I think Supes might actually have a chance of winning. Remember Supes almost never fights at his maximum no holds bared. It would be quite something to seem an all out fight.
I already said this, assuming we're still on Z Goku.
The hybernation comment was just my guess - I'm not sure how he was able to live that long, but who knows with a constant charge from the sun.
Should I try to make you explain the mechanisms behind this as you've done with “angles?” No. That would be dishonest debating. It was observed.
I'm not sure what you mean by this comment, could you explain further.
He only survived under those conditions because it was a yellow star. Were he anywhere else, he could die of starvation just as...well not as easily as Goku, but just as easily as a regular person.
Yeah thought you meant using it as a technique against Supes.
I'd hope not.
I'll take your word on that. OK, try this: from 50% - 99% of speed of light is around where his speed is. Though I think it's more around the 99% side.
Do you always reject your sources when they become inconvenient? This doesn't change that Goku is faster. Seeeing as he can get across the galaxy in a few seconds, he is moving 'round at several million times the speed of light. I know I sadi “thousands” before, but after checking up on the size of the galaxy, the lil' Saiyan that could is quicker than even I thought.
What speed is IT suppose to be?
Several million times the speed of light.
No, it's not silly because while he can travel that fast, and (sometimes does) he does not travel that fast when he doesn't need to. Superman hardley ever runs.
Hey, hey! I said I'd let it go! Besides, I've said DB(Z)(GT) is silly in plenty of other threads, too.
The Flash family on the other hand do run at high those high speeds, but have a field that protects their surroundings, Superman doesn't have that field, as far as I know.
Flash is irrelevant.
1 - Yes, but Superman would have the advantage here, I'm not saying that Goku can't fight in space, but that Superman would have a big advantage.
2 - And why would Superman stay on the planet and fight on Goku's terms... - let's not play this out too much, I'm merely arguing the different scenarios if they actually happened, not what scenarios would take place, or in what order. Oh, and like you said Superman would fight back and dodge the energy attacks, he's not a rag doll you know.
3 - No you didn't, you should really rethink this IT argument. I enjoy the DBZ stuff as well, and I was for a Goku win, so I don't think I'm really biased one way or the other but I just don't see it possible for IT to be used as a constant transport method. It's IT not Constant Transmission. For example, when Goku, had It'd Superman could be on him in a flash, and Goku would still need to concentrate before he IT'd again.
1 – I know, which is why Goku would manipulate the fight.
2 – Superman will have to fight Goku on the surafce or in the atmosphere. He doesn't have the power to destroy the planet and they will fight. Were their positions reversed, Goku could simply destroy the planet with Superman on it.
3 – I did do so, but you either cannot or will not see the reasoning. Please see my “leading fire” comment earlier in my post, too.
As you wish.
Thank you.
Again, I think was an inconsistency in the writing. But this is understandable in the DB to DBZ transition.
Then their physical attack would be so out of proportion to their physical attack.
...No. There is no inconsistency. There isn't really even a transition. The manga is all “Dragonball,” and it's all written by one Mr. Akira Toriyama. The characters have been and are insanely powerful.
I am curious to know how something can be out of proportion to itself.
As for the chi attacks being stronger than the physical attacks...where have you been? The whole reason anyone cares about Roshi is because he figured out how to unleash devastating attacks using chi. If chi attacks were weaker, there'd be absolutely no ppractical reason to know or use them.
Remember, those seconds of concentration that it takes to IT is all that Supes needs to take advantage of IT. Those few secs are also why IT would not work.
If Goku can see 'em, there is no delay for concentration. Please see above.
I agree that Supes' reaction time is just so much faster than Goku's. And we see what a crucial role this played in the battle against Cell.
I dealt with this in the last post.
It seems though that most of the debate has turned to how effective Goku's IT is, and what he can and can't do with it.
Well, the Superman Sycophants latched onto that as if it were some sort of weakness in my argument, so I'm now defending it. I will continue to do so as long as it is challenged (or until a moderator smites us all).

[mississippibaby]

they have some similar qualities but i really think goku would win

[Stu]

Firstly, do you know where the "EDIT" button is? If so, use it. If not, I'll be glad to show you. I'm sick of you double and triple posting.


Take it easy there Asterisk!, take it down a notch - debate remember, not a battle for the universe. Besides, I thought the post was getting a bit long, and the other poster might appreciate a shorter direct response to his post, if you don't mind, that is... ;)


No. Goku has a tremendous speed adavantage. If Goku runs to heal, it will take Superman so long to reach him he'll be ready to fight by then. If Superman tries to run, Goku will easily catch. See the calculations concerning IT and Superman's supposed top speed of 0.447c.


Actually you got that wrong, if Goku runs to heal, Superman will not be able to follow him, he can't focus in on a chi - note that I am not arguing against your point here.
Yes, Goku could catch Supes but, that would depend on where he was running to, the sun, space, etc. again, just constatly moving at high speed.


Sorry. I thought you literally meant unaffiliated territory.


That could also work.


He focuses when the chi is distant. Seeing the person helps in sensing chi. If Goku and Superman are fighting, they'll see each other. Goku didn't have to focus for a minute when he used in on Cell, remember? A chain of ITs would be spectacular, but not implausible.


Again, if Supes runs away at high speed (remember the speeds we are talking about) Goku would not be able to see Superman, and would need to focus, so making a chained IT impossible.
Even you concede (somewhat) that a chain of IT's would be difficult to execute. Now for Superman moving at super-speed is as easy as running or throwing a punch, so clearly Supes would have an advantage.

The Supreme Kai can't even do IT or any koind of teleportation. Kibito, his version o' Mr. Popo, can teleport, but it isn't IT. Kibito can teleport anywhere whether or not there is a chi there to lock onto to. It's not IT, so it can't be used to describe IT. The Supreme Kai can only teleport after he is fused with Kibito using the potara.

You're right, but the point I was making is that the teleport is a drain, and would do the same with Goku.


Cite when Superman was in space and a yellow star was not in view.
I didnt think the moon was a reach, but I'll leave this one be.


Are you serious... If you are I'll go check my boxes.


Once again, Goku needn't go where the chi is at the instant he teleports. He uses the chi as a navigational aid. If Superman is flying, the current position of his chi and his actions can be used to anticipate where he'll be in a few moments. It's like leading your fire (http://www.answers.com/topic/leading-fire). Leading your fire would also work with the dart, by the way.


Again, we are talking extremely high speeds here, Goku's brain would need to work at the level of 100 Super-computers to perform that kind of calculation - which it doesn't. I can understand your argument if Superman was moving at a very very very slow speed but at such high velocity - this would not be possible without somekind of computer aid. Remember, like someone else pointed out IT is point to point.


I don't think you understand how much energy would be realeased to destroy a planet and scatter its mass. Every chunk of anything on the planet would have to be accelerated to at least escape velocity. Superman, or anything else for that matter, would have no chance of surviving a planet's destruction if they're on the surface or in the atmosphere.


Again, this is were Superman's speed helps him.


You didn't say "Supe's hand" and "Goku," you said "your hand" and "brick wall." It was a dumb comparison. Secondly, attacks usually don't multiply over time if they cause no damage to begin with. If it inflics no harm, there is nothing to recover from before the next try. The only way attacks build on each other is if each inflicts damage. Then, the opponent is sufferin gfrom that damage while dealing with more attacks. Superman has to be able to give Goku a booboo with each hit or each harmless hit means absolutely nothing.


Right, so who's to say that Superman's attack would do no damage??


It was observed. They can blow up planets with power levels under 200.


Fair enough then. Inconsistent, but observed.


IT DID. HAVE YOU WATCHED THE ANIME OR READ THE MANGA AT ALL?
(sighs)
It took longer than it should have because Frieza was attacked while forming the blast. This was a failed attack, at much less than full power, that destroyed Namek.


Listen, before questioning my knowledge, maybe YOU should check on your own. Because you are WRONG on this. The episode is called Namek's Destruction, and I think Frieza says "It's not always the strongest that wins, but the smartest." He then proceeds to create a red coloured energy attack and throws it at the surface [not at an angle :)] expecting namek to blow up, which it didn't. He was NOT attcked while doing this. So it WAS full power, and it DIDN'T destroy Namek like he clearly intended.


IT DOESN"T MATTER WHY IT DIDN'T HAPPEN OR IF IT SHOULD HAVE! IT WAS OBSERVED! IF SOMETHING IS KNOWN TO HAVE HAPPENED, IT CANNOT BE IMPOSSIBLE. If you cannot grasp this simple idea, you have no business posting in a debate.
I offered up the angles idea as an off hand comment. I don't need to explain why those blasts didn't kill planets, because it was observed. It is fact. It needs no proof, you imbecile!
I would suspect they simply don't use such powerful attacks because they don't want to blow themselves up along with the planet they're standing on. Self-preservation is important.



Don't say something doesn't matter because it is in opposition to what you say - if you do then you have absolutely no business posting ina debate. So the writers got a few things wrong, so what, doesn't mean the world will end or I enjoy DB any less.


Imbecile!! Hmmm, now, now, unless I'm mistaken this fight is between Goku and Superman...


I already said this, assuming we're still on Z Goku.


Yes, with Z Goku, and he might give a GT Goku, hard time. :)


Should I try to make you explain the mechanisms behind this as you've done with “angles?” No. That would be dishonest debating. It was observed.


Look, you're becoming too defensive. I only made these comments because you commented that you would like to know more about Superman Prime (the future Superman). It had nothing to do with the current Superman debate. Even the current Superman would have trouble being that close to the sun, as it produces such extreme temperatures. While it would recharge him, he would still have to contend with the heat produced, so there is also a chance it could hurt him.


He only survived under those conditions because it was a yellow star. Were he anywhere else, he could die of starvation just as...well not as easily as Goku, but just as easily as a regular person.


Check my above answer.


Do you always reject your sources when they become inconvenient? This doesn't change that Goku is faster. Seeeing as he can get across the galaxy in a few seconds, he is moving 'round at several million times the speed of light. I know I sadi “thousands” before, but after checking up on the size of the galaxy, the lil' Saiyan that could is quicker than even I thought.


Look, you are clearly not picking up on the point that I'm making. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that Superman's speed is 99% speed of light, whatever that is.
By saying that IT is faster, and travels (several million times) faster than light. Then clearly Goku no longer maintains his physical form when he is transported. Like a teleport. This limits IT even further becasue he would need to retake his physical form to fight, or concentrate again. Thereby slowing him down significantly.


Flash is irrelevant.


Yes, Flash is irrelevent in the fight but not in terms of the point (that we were discussing) about sonic booms.


1 – I know, which is why Goku would manipulate the fight.
2 – Superman will have to fight Goku on the surafce or in the atmosphere. He doesn't have the power to destroy the planet and they will fight. Were their positions reversed, Goku could simply destroy the planet with Superman on it.
3 – I did do so, but you either cannot or will not see the reasoning. Please see my “leading fire” comment earlier in my post, too.


1 - Are you saying only Goku could manipulate the fight? That's why I said let's not debate how or where they would fight, but if each scenario actually played out.
2 - Why would he HAVE to fight him on the surface or atmosphere? There are plenty of occasions were Superman has flown his opponnents into space to fly them into the sun or fight in space - Your reasoning is not supported by what has been observed.


...No. There is no inconsistency. There isn't really even a transition. The manga is all “Dragonball,” and it's all written by one Mr. Akira Toriyama. The characters have been and are insanely powerful.
I am curious to know how something can be out of proportion to itself.
As for the chi attacks being stronger than the physical attacks...where have you been? The whole reason anyone cares about Roshi is because he figured out how to unleash devastating attacks using chi. If chi attacks were weaker, there'd be absolutely no ppractical reason to know or use them.


No inconsistency. Ok check the Frieza argument.
Superman's speed is out of proportion to his strength,and so is insert charcter here/Roshi's physical vs chi attack.
Wrong, chi attacks are a great ranged weapon.



If Goku can see 'em, there is no delay for concentration. Please see above.


Exactly, he can't see him.


Well, the Superman Sycophants latched onto that as if it were some sort of weakness in my argument, so I'm now defending it. I will continue to do so as long as it is challenged (or until a moderator smites us all).

The only (Goku) Sycophant here (no offense intended) seems to be you. While most everyone else seems to agree that IT cannot be used how you are describing it, you are the only one defending your idea.

Let's get something straight, I do think Goku would win in the end. All I'm arguing is that Supes would give him a good go, and it would be a great fight.

[TheAsterisk!]

Take it easy there Asterisk!, take it down a notch - debate remember, not a battle for the universe. Besides, I thought the post was getting a bit long, and the other poster might appreciate a shorter direct response to his post, if you don't mind, that is... ;)
Please don't post two or three times in a row. 'Sides, we're the only ones that still seem to care.
Actually you got that wrong, if Goku runs to heal, Superman will not be able to follow him, he can't focus in on a chi - note that I am not arguing against your point here.
Yes, Goku could catch Supes but, that would depend on where he was running to, the sun, space, etc. again, just constatly moving at high speed.
Even better for me if Superman can't catch Goku at all. Goku could easily catch Superman if he just flew off at high speed, and Superman wouldn't even get to Venus heading for the sun before Goku'd catch him.
That could also work.
I can't think of any suitable place, though. Can you?
Again, if Supes runs away at high speed (remember the speeds we are talking about) Goku would not be able to see Superman, and would need to focus, so making a chained IT impossible.
1 - Goku's ITs at several mullion times the speed of light, Superman flies at juust under half the speed of light. Goku is faster.
2 - Goku would need to concentrate for the first IT, yes, but, by leading Superman, after the first IT he would see him, and the chained ITs would be possible. The chained ITs are only for maneuvering in close, not for catching up to a fleeing opponent.
Even you concede (somewhat) that a chain of IT's would be difficult to execute. Now for Superman moving at super-speed is as easy as running or throwing a punch, so clearly Supes would have an advantage.
I never said chained ITs would be difficult, I said they'd be spectacular. It just means it'd be really cool to watch. Again, Goku's speed is superior. By the way, agility (ability to change directions, accerlerate, deccelerate) is far more important than raw speed in a fight. Goku has a tremendous advantage here, too.
You're right, but the point I was making is that the teleport is a drain, and would do the same with Goku.
No, you tried and failed to make that point. You showed an entirely different technique drained energy. It has no relevance.
Are you serious... If you are I'll go check my boxes.
Just cite when Superman was nowhere near a yellow star.
Again, we are talking extremely high speeds here, Goku's brain would need to work at the level of 100 Super-computers to perform that kind of calculation - which it doesn't. I can understand your argument if Superman was moving at a very very very slow speed but at such high velocity - this would not be possible without somekind of computer aid. Remember, like someone else pointed out IT is point to point.
I love how you pulled the supercomputer number from out of your behind and expect me to acceptit as fact. Leading fire is eay and doesn't require computers. You can do it with calculations, or you can eyeball it if you have experience. Fighter pilots have been leading fire since WWI and continue to do so to this day. Goku would just have to lead ahead further because Superman is faster than modern aircraft. The same tactic would work with your dart, by the way.
I admitted that IT is point to point, but my chained IT argument concerns maneuverability in close, not catching up to Superman.
Again, this is were Superman's speed helps him.
Goku is faster. I have made that case, and it is sound.[/quote]
Right, so who's to say that Superman's attack would do no damage??
Supreman has less power than Saiyan-saga Vegeta (planetary destruction). His speed is about on par with Goku's (barring IT). His power isn't enough to overwhelm Goku's defenses. If he did any damage, it would be because Goku dropped his defenses.
Fair enough then. Inconsistent, but observed.
No, it's not inconsistent. It just means their chi attacks are far more powerful than their physical attacks.
Listen, before questioning my knowledge, maybe YOU should check on your own. Because you are WRONG on this. The episode is called Namek's Destruction, and I think Frieza says "It's not always the strongest that wins, but the smartest." He then proceeds to create a red coloured energy attack and throws it at the surface [not at an angle :)] expecting namek to blow up, which it didn't. He was NOT attcked while doing this. So it WAS full power, and it DIDN'T destroy Namek like he clearly intended.
Well, I might be mistaken about him being interupted by an attack, but Frieza did say the planet was taking longer than he expected to explode. The angle bit was brought up because you asked why stray blasts didn't kill planets, not regarding Frieza's deliberate attempt to destroy Namek. Namek did blow up, though, if you'll try to remember. That's why there were Namekians playing golf and poker at the Cpausle Corporation.
Imbecile!! Hmmm, now, now, unless I'm mistaken this fight is between Goku and Superman...
I got sick of you saying, "But that's impossible!" when I brought up events that had clearly happened. Again, if it was observed, it doesn't matter how insane or seemingly impossible it was. It happened. We know stary blasts, for whatever reason, don't normally destroy planets, and we know that they can destroy planets. It doesn't matter if I can't explain why.
Yes, with Z Goku, and he might give a GT Goku, hard time. :)
Z Goku'd have a tough fight, but GT Goku would off Superman is a few minutes. That's why it'd be no fun. TOEI made him ridiculously strong even compared to other ridiculously strong characters and gave him heavy plot armor. GT Goku is a joke.
Look, you're becoming too defensive. I only made these comments because you commented that you would like to know more about Superman Prime (the future Superman). It had nothing to do with the current Superman debate. Even the current Superman would have trouble being that close to the sun, as it produces such extreme temperatures. While it would recharge him, he would still have to contend with the heat produced, so there is also a chance it could hurt him.
I was pointing out that since Superman was observed to have been in the sun, it must be possible, explanation or no explanation. You, though, tried to get me explain observed events (stray blasts). I shouldn't have to explain them because they were observed. THAT'S ALL.
Check my above answer.
I'm not disagreeing with you on this part, just adding a bit.
Look, you are clearly not picking up on the point that I'm making. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that Superman's speed is 99% speed of light, whatever that is.
By saying that IT is faster, and travels (several million times) faster than light. Then clearly Goku no longer maintains his physical form when he is transported. Like a teleport. This limits IT even further becasue he would need to retake his physical form to fight, or concentrate again. Thereby slowing him down significantly.
It hasn't slowed him down ant other time he's used in in battle; why should it htis time?
Yes, Flash is irrelevent in the fight but not in terms of the point (that we were discussing) about sonic booms.
I said that Z made the same mistake, so I'd let it go. They even talk to each othre when they're apparently flying at supersonic speeds, for goodness' sake. I'm thinking of it (for both series) in pretty much the same way sci-fi always has spaceships making noise. It's just a silly error the authors made.
[/quote]1 - Are you saying only Goku could manipulate the fight? That's why I said let's not debate how or where they would fight, but if each scenario actually played out.[/quote]
No, but if Superman's only advantage would be to go into space for an extended period. From here, he can't get to Goku, and Goku can't really get to him. It would create a stalemate.
2 - Why would he HAVE to fight him on the surface or atmosphere? There are plenty of occasions were Superman has flown his opponnents into space to fly them into the sun or fight in space - Your reasoning is not supported by what has been observed.
It's not that Superman would have top be there but it's the only place he could defeat Goku in. Please see my last snippet.
If Superman tries to take the fight to space, Goku can deny him the advantage and just sit on the ground. Superman hasn't the power to destroy planets, so it becomes a stalemate. If they fight on the ground or in the atmosphere, then Goku would eventually win, though there'd be one heck of a mess afterwards.
No inconsistency. Ok check the Frieza argument.
I've resolved that as best I can. Sorry.
Superman's speed is out of proportion to his strength,and so is insert charcter here/Roshi's physical vs chi attack.
Wrong, chi attacks are a great ranged weapon.
Chi attacks are stronger, yes. Why do you think that's an inconsistency? If Superman can have unbalanced abilities, why can't others have unbalanced abilities?
Exactly, he can't see him.
Chained ITs are only for close-in maneuvering. He'd use a regular IT to get to him from greater distances.
The only (Goku) Sycophant here (no offense intended) seems to be you. While most everyone else seems to agree that IT cannot be used how you are describing it, you are the only one defending your idea.
Apparently, you've misunderstood what the chained ITs were to be used for. I think I've explained it pretty plainly up above.
Let's get something straight, I do think Goku would win in the end. All I'm arguing is that Supes would give him a good go, and it would be a great fight.
That is just about the one big thing we agree on.

I don't think my arguments can do any more to convince you, so this'll be my last post on the subject. Sorry if I got personal a couple of times; I really shouldn't have. You've given me a pretty fun debate. Thanks.

[Sanosuke23]

Oh I still care, Mavericker sidetracked me last night after work but I promise to return to this inanity at my earliest convenience.

[Falkien]

It depends I don't know if Superman can blow up into pieces... Goku is much faster and stronger but the actual conflict is immunity and endurance

[Stu]

Please don't post two or three times in a row. 'Sides, we're the only ones that still seem to care.

Yeah, I guess no ones immune to internet-ego-syndrome. :)
I have removed quite a bit of irrelevent stuff, as th epost was getting rediculous.

I never said chained ITs would be difficult, I said they'd be spectacular. It just means it'd be really cool to watch. Again, Goku's speed is superior. By the way, agility (ability to change directions, accerlerate, deccelerate) is far more important than raw speed in a fight. Goku has a tremendous advantage here, too.

In fact you're way off on that, the way that the two fly are competely different - Goku uses his chi, while Superman has a natiral ability. I don't think Goku would have an advantage in terms of agility.


Just cite when Superman was nowhere near a yellow star.


Any number of comic issues.


I love how you pulled the supercomputer number from out of your behind and expect me to acceptit as fact. Leading fire is eay and doesn't require computers. You can do it with calculations, or you can eyeball it if you have experience. Fighter pilots have been leading fire since WWI and continue to do so to this day. Goku would just have to lead ahead further because Superman is faster than modern aircraft. The same tactic would work with your dart, by the way.


Listen man, you can't just keep ignoring facts here. We are NOT talking about WWI fighter pilots, we are not talking about modern aircraft. We ARE talking about 50% speed of light.
So are you really suggesting that the following wouldn't require computer type calculations to achieve:
Superman is travelling at 50% speed of light, Goku homes in on his chi source (travelling at 50% speed of light). Right, accepted.
NOW (the impossible part), Goku makes a calculation EXACTLY were Superman will be in 2-3 seconds (2-3 seconds is around how long it takes to IT from point to point) while Superman is still travelling at 50% Speed of light??!

There are several reasons why Goku couldn't do this:
1- You yourself admit that IT is point to point. So for Goku to IT to a point in space were Superman will be, he would have to be able to IT to a point 299,792,458m away from a chi source, because that is the distance Superman would cover in 2 seconds if travelling at 50% speed of light.
2 - Goku's brain could not perform these calculations - even if he got around point 1.
3 - Goku could not anticipate what Superman would do, remember if Superman varies his course just a fraction, or changes his speed just a fraction, Goku's IT would be way off. With this in mind it would not be possible.

I admitted that IT is point to point, but my chained IT argument concerns maneuverability in close, not catching up to Superman.

They're one and the same I'm afraid, you need to catch someone first before you can get close to them.

Goku is faster. I have made that case, and it is sound.

No, only Goku's IT is faster, NOT his flying speed.

Supreman has less power than Saiyan-saga Vegeta (planetary destruction). His speed is about on par with Goku's (barring IT). His power isn't enough to overwhelm Goku's defenses. If he did any damage, it would be because Goku dropped his defenses.

Are you telling me that Goku can travel at 50-99% speed of light?
I never said his power was.
You're telling me that a punch thrown while travelling at 20% speed of light will have no affect? If it hasn't been observed you can't say that.
You seem so concerend (or bias) with defending Goku that you ignore/forget that I agree with you on alot of points.


Well, I might be mistaken about him being interupted by an attack, but Frieza did say the planet was taking longer than he expected to explode. The angle bit was brought up because you asked why stray blasts didn't kill planets, not regarding Frieza's deliberate attempt to destroy Namek. Namek did blow up, though, if you'll try to remember. That's why there were Namekians playing golf and poker at the Cpausle Corporation.


Look at how easy Roshi destoyed the moon, there's NO way Roshi's blast could be even anywhere NEAR to the power of Frieza's blast. With that in mind, Namek should have been space dust, and not taken an extra 5 minutes to blow up.
You yourself made the point that Frieza was so in control of his powers that he should EASILY have been able to blow up Namek.


It hasn't slowed him down ant other time he's used in in battle; why should it htis time?


It will hinder in the scenario we are painting, and the reason it hasn't hindered him before is because he has never used it in the way we are suggesting.

I said that Z made the same mistake, so I'd let it go. They even talk to each othre when they're apparently flying at supersonic speeds, for goodness' sake. I'm thinking of it (for both series) in pretty much the same way sci-fi always has spaceships making noise. It's just a silly error the authors made.

Actually that is what Flash's protective shield is for, it was taken into account. I will check for you, but I think I have witnessed a few times were Superman does leave behind a sonic boom - check out the latest Superman Returns movie, as it happens in there.

No, but if Superman's only advantage would be to go into space for an extended period. From here, he can't get to Goku, and Goku can't really get to him. It would create a stalemate.

I agree. Not sure it would be his only advantage though.


It's not that Superman would have top be there but it's the only place he could defeat Goku in. Please see my last snippet.
If Superman tries to take the fight to space, Goku can deny him the advantage and just sit on the ground. Superman hasn't the power to destroy planets, so it becomes a stalemate. If they fight on the ground or in the atmosphere, then Goku would eventually win, though there'd be one heck of a mess afterwards.


Supes still has significant speed in the atmosphere. Though again, let's argue the scenario's, not what scenarios would take place - though if you would like, this would be intersting to.

Chi attacks are stronger, yes. Why do you think that's an inconsistency? If Superman can have unbalanced abilities, why can't others have unbalanced abilities?

You missed my point, I have argued that the chi attack of early Dragonball (Roshi) and later Dragonball (Frieza) is inconsistent.
Sure, everyone can have unbalanced abilities - but Goku's speed/chi attack is not unbalanced though.


Chained ITs are only for close-in maneuvering. He'd use a regular IT to get to him from greater distances.


This makes no sense. Again, (1) he would have to catch Superman first, (2) you can't use IT to throw an instant punch (you dematerialize when IT'ing).


That is just about the one big thing we agree on.


No, I think we agree on most things, we just seem to differ (1) that there has been some inconsistency in chi powers in DB, and (2) that IT could be used effectively as a form of super speed in a battle scenario (for transporting, or going on holiday 's great).

I don't think my arguments can do any more to convince you, so this'll be my last post on the subject. Sorry if I got personal a couple of times; I really shouldn't have. You've given me a pretty fun debate. Thanks.

Uuum, but your IT argument doesn't hold up at all - see above.
Yeah, was interesting though. See ya.

[Saint Seiya]

wasnt goku able to move at the speed of light after training with kamizama?

[Mousie]

Superman has one huge drawback
Kryptonite
While Goku has none

easy win for goku IMO

[Stu]

Superman has one huge drawback
Kryptonite
While Goku has none

easy win for goku IMO

Only problem with that is that Kryptonite is a very rare item, and not easy to come by at all. Also it is considered a weapon, and we are talking neutral ground.
If you want to bring weapons in to it then Superman could utilise weapons as well like Diana's (Wonder Woman) sword. It is magic based, and I suspect Goku is just as vunerable to magic as Superman - Diana's sword can cut even Superman because it is magic based.

I agree though Goku would would in a straight-up punching match.

[la_lazy_ninja_princess]

I think Goku would totally win. Superman sucks, in my view

[Brewmaster]

Goku all the way.I mean super guy has no chances.Goku can power up more then i can eat a day.And i eat a lot. O_o;;;

[rEikAbLeU]

OR SRSLY?
If a rock can kill you,I wouldn't rely on him.

Made for AF audience:
http://i36.tinypic.com/14am150.jpg

Don't flame me,it has something to do with the thread.

this one is nice....
^_^

[AnimeRumorDotCom]

http://www.animehairstyle.com/hairstyles/super-saiyan-3-goku.jpg

vs

http://www.marshallbock.com/dotcom/gallery/illustrations/superman.png

=

http://www.graveerror.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/Son%20Goku.JPG

Clearly Goku pwns.

[Howl's Mistress]

if Superman could beat Goku in any power match up...
i'll say that im dreaming...
totally...

A person who was given a chance to live again and again and again after protecting Earth is totally awesome and indestructible...
And he really is immune to weaknesses unlike Superman who is susceptible to Kryptonite...

he have a kind heart, yes!!
but it doen't mean that it will be a factor to his defeat...

sorry, Superman fans...
but it's definitely GOKU....

[ePic_eRroRs]

if Superman could beat Goku in any power match up...
i'll say that im dreaming...
totally...

A person who was given a chance to live again and again and again after protecting Earth is totally awesome and indestructible...
And he really is immune to weaknesses unlike Superman who is susceptible to Kryptonite...

he have a kind heart, yes!!
but it doen't mean that it will be a factor to his defeat...

sorry, Superman fans...
but it's definitely GOKU....
I agree with this. Plus Goku just looks cooler as you can tell from the pictures above. But on a serious note, Superman has problems lifting cars at time, Goku lifts airplanes and crap.

[Darth Necrosis]

Goku would win hands down. He would only have to go to the first super saiyan form in order to kick Supermans ***. Any further would be overkill.

[Miz]

Goku would win hands down. He would only have to go to the first super saiyan form in order to kick Supermans ***. Any further would be overkill.

o.o would he even need to power up, Goku is pretty tough, not saying superman is not tough.. but <_<

[Sanosuke23]

I agree with this. Plus Goku just looks cooler as you can tell from the pictures above. But on a serious note, Superman has problems lifting cars at time, Goku lifts airplanes and crap.

lol wut? Superman doesn't struggle to lift cars. In fact, the only problem he has lifting planes is having to be gentle enough to not kill everyone inside/break the plane.

Goku doesn't have to worry about semi-realistic physics.


Also, wtg up there, comparing official art to fanart.

[Dr. Hax]

Goku has no weakness except human life.Superman=Kryptonite.

Actually, since I've seen a thread like this before, I will state that Pre-Crisis Superman had more than one weakness. One of them was powerful magic, and the other was heavy exposure to energy or radiation.

Goku needs to stay in one place for a Kamehameha, right? Superman could easily just move out of the way and wail on Goku.

Goku needs to eat a messload of food to get his strength back, Superman uses sunlight and can fly into space, skimming the sun for maximum exposure. He can only stay in space without a life preserver for half an hour. Goku would also die in space as well with enough time.

Goku could use the spirit bomb but:

-That has a good chance of missing
-Pre-Crisis Superman was able to survive a near ground zero blast from a nuclear warhead
-The S-Bomb takes time to charge, giving Superman enough time to once again, wail on Goku.

and lastly, would Goku honestly kill poor animals and/or people in a vain attempt to kill superman?

Since there is no Kryptonite around nor is there magic being used, Goku will have to rely on his Kamehameha and that has a good chance of missing as well.

[Robin Sena]

superman can whip goku's bum.

[Zenni-Kun]

superman would only win because he has heat vision, thats it, if he didnt goku would totally ram superman into the ground!

[Kishiro]

Actually, since I've seen a thread like this before, I will state that Pre-Crisis Superman had more than one weakness. One of them was powerful magic, and the other was heavy exposure to energy or radiation.

Goku needs to stay in one place for a Kamehameha, right? Superman could easily just move out of the way and wail on Goku.

Goku needs to eat a messload of food to get his strength back, Superman uses sunlight and can fly into space, skimming the sun for maximum exposure. He can only stay in space without a life preserver for half an hour. Goku would also die in space as well with enough time.

Goku could use the spirit bomb but:

-That has a good chance of missing
-Pre-Crisis Superman was able to survive a near ground zero blast was a nuclear warhead
-The S-Bomb takes time to charge, giving Superman enough time to once again, wail on Goku.

and lastly, would Goku honestly kill poor animals and/or people in a vain attempt to kill superman?

Since there is no Kryptonite around nor is there magic being used, Goku will have to rely on his Kamehameha and that has a good chance of missing as well.

Kamehameha? Please.
Goku has many more abilities than that and the spirit bomb to fight with. You have to remember that Goku trained since he was 10 in hand to hand combat, and the Kamehameha and other energy techniques weren't really incorporated heavily until DBZ.

Even kid Goku from Dragon Ball with his puny Kamehameha would have been formitable against Superman.

Pre-Namek Goku (as he was when he first fought Vegeta) would probably be an even match for Superman.

Any form/version of Goku after Namek and discovering SSJ would just demolish Superman. However, Goku usually tends to hold back for the love of fighting and to put his opponent on an equal playing field. Or at least he started doing that towards the end of DBZ (which is stupid considering the stakes most of the time). He held back in the fight with Pikon, with Majin Vegeta, Majin Buu, Kid Buu, and Uub.

But let's be real about this. Knowing that Goku's power well over 9000, and that it is some great number over 1 million, and that he can pretty much destroy anything at any time if he really wanted to, and wouldn't need the help of Kryptonite to do it.

Now I know Crisis/Post-Crisis Superman was a bit OP. Blowing out stars, moving planets, and all that. Pretty much a God tier character. But even so, I think Goku could even beat that as SSJ2 or SSJ3.

Also, they'd have to be fighting somewhere that there was a yellow/orange sun for Superman to even have a chance of fighting. A blue or red sun leaves him powerless.

[Gjallarhorn]

Goku needs to stay in one place for a Kamehameha, right? Superman could easily just move out of the way and wail on Goku.

Instant transmission Kamehameha or Spirit Bomb. He's done it before on Cell, and I believe on Buu as well.

[Dr. Hax]

Kamehameha? Please.
Goku has many more abilities than that and the spirit bomb to fight with. You have to remember that Goku trained since he was 10 in hand to hand combat, and the Kamehameha and other energy techniques weren't really incorporated heavily until DBZ.

Even kid Goku from Dragon Ball with his puny Kamehameha would have been formitable against Superman.

Pre-Namek Goku (as he was when he first fought Vegeta) would probably be an even match for Superman.

Any form/version of Goku after Namek and discovering SSJ would just demolish Superman. However, Goku usually tends to hold back for the love of fighting and to put his opponent on an equal playing field. Or at least he started doing that towards the end of DBZ (which is stupid considering the stakes most of the time). He held back in the fight with Pikon, with Majin Vegeta, Majin Buu, Kid Buu, and Uub.

But let's be real about this. Knowing that Goku's power well over 9000, and that it is some great number over 1 million, and that he can pretty much destroy anything at any time if he really wanted to, and wouldn't need the help of Kryptonite to do it.

Now I know Crisis/Post-Crisis Superman was a bit OP. Blowing out stars, moving planets, and all that. Pretty much a God tier character. But even so, I think Goku could even beat that as SSJ2 or SSJ3.

Also, they'd have to be fighting somewhere that there was a yellow/orange sun for Superman to even have a chance of fighting. A blue or red sun leaves him powerless.

Then I guess the following factors have to be considered:

-Location (i.e. Namek or Earth)

-Time of day (That determines sunlight)

-Type of Character between Goku and Superman (i.e. Pre-Namek Goku, Kid Goku, Pre-Crisis Superman, etc.)

-Weaknesses/Drawbacks

People, start figuring out the rest and then debate before posting on impulse. I'm ending my participation in this thread as I almost got infracted on another forum for flaming. There was a 3-page flame war, I believe and I almost got sucked into it. Threads like these almost got me in trouble. XD

[Kishiro]

Time of day is irrelevant for Superman so far as the sun thing goes. There just has to be one in the solar system. So long as he's been exposed to it and not a red one since. Location is the factor, planetary wise. Goku could go to Krypton or New Krypton and beat Superman to hell because those planets have red suns.

Goku has normal weaknesses. You just have to be stronger than him to hurt him.

[~Super13~]

Well, sadly my answer won't really matter cause I never really seen superman in much action, but I guess I say Goku wins.

[TheAsterisk!]

Did any of you read through the earlier three pages of posts where three of us battled it out and raised good points? You're starting to repeat a lot of stuff that was either already covered or supported or destroyed.
superman would only win because he has heat vision, thats it, if he didnt goku would totally ram superman into th' ground!
Piccolo's got lasers coming from his eyes! Piccolo! Goku easily wins over Piccolo! The issue in such a case is not a special technique, but its power and usefulness. Try again.
I strongly urge you to read the earlier posts before bringing up "new" ideas.

[Kubisa]

Anyone saying Goku wins; I raise you this:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f48/t371890.html

Read it and learn.

Superman rapes Goku into tiny little bits.

[Sanosuke23]

Anyone saying Goku wins; I raise you this:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f48/t371890.html

Read it and learn.

Superman rapes Goku into tiny little bits.

Holy crap, post-Crisis Supes was made of harder stuff than even I thought. Plus, you know, with actual comic page evidence, I may have to stop leaning off the fence on Supe's side and just fall in.




Oh and *!, by "reaction time" I meant the time for him to successfully identify and properly react to a given something, something akin to the time it takes a gunfighter to draw and fire a gun accurately on randomly appearing targets. If you thought by "react" I meant he'd be able to go "OH CRAP" and flinch, that is not what I meant. If you have a better term for it than reaction time, please share it with me.

Why is this relevant? Well aside from the evidence posted after the fact, I was already saying that in hand-to-hand combat they're probably about even in terms of strength and durability(though given the evidence quoted above OH HO HO I take that part back), so it comes down to how fast one's hands are, so to speak, and since he can't IT punches that's out of this part of the argument.


However, to be 100% honest with you all, it is very literally impossible to properly gauge how this fight would go, and this is the case with some but not all other vs. scenarios. You see, the argument that the two would never fight each other can't simply be dispelled by saying "BUT WHAT IF THEY DID?!" In order to properly and logically deduce who would win, we'd have to do so with both participants in character. Which we can't, because as stated before, THEY WOULD NOT FIGHT EACH OTHER FOR ANY SERIOUS LENGTH OF TIME, ESPECIALLY NOT TO THE DEATH. Goku only kills those that are evil, which Superman isn't, and Superman is loath to do even that. The best we could hope for would be a fight where both people held back, Goku in order to take measure of Superman and Superman in order to not accidentally kill Goku(I am speaking of their respective intent, not their respective power differences). After a bit of this, there'd likely be a break in combat where Goku tells him to use his full power, Superman realizes he's fighting for fun and isn't an actual threat, and flies away. Goku, who won't just randomly harm innocents to provoke Supes(and yes, that would be the only way), would probably just pester him for the rest of eternity.

[sunnyside]

I'll go with Superman. At least after that (bad) movie where apperantly he can turn back time. This would allow him to spin things back until Goku still had a tail and then kick his butt.

[amadorhi]

Goku, he'd teleport Superman to a planet that doesn't have a yellow sun(which makes superman powerless). Beat the hell out of him to submission, then teleport him back cause Goku doesnt kill good guys.

[wowzabunny]

Goku all the way

[Sanosuke23]

Goku, he'd teleport Superman to a planet that doesn't have a yellow sun(which makes superman powerless). Beat the hell out of him to submission, then teleport him back cause Goku doesnt kill good guys.

Ah, but how would he KNOW about that weakness of his, and does he know of a planet with a red sun? All the suns I've ever seen have been yellow or white in the DB universe.

Aside from that, no Goku wouldn't. He'd want to fight and beat Superman at his strongest if he beat him at all.

[Dr. Hax]

Ah, but how would he KNOW about that weakness of his, and does he know of a planet with a red sun? All the suns I've ever seen have been yellow or white in the DB universe.

Aside from that, no Goku wouldn't. He'd want to fight and beat Superman at his strongest if he beat him at all.

This is truth, here. In addition, how do we know how far instant transmission will allow Goku to go in terms of distance?

[Miz]

This is truth, here. In addition, how do we know how far instant transmission will allow Goku to go in terms of distance?

If I know right, I don't think its 100% based on distance. I believe Goku needs to be able to sense a power level of someone or something to be able to transport there - well in long distance anyways. If the power level is to low or far away, then he won't be able to go there.

[Frost Alchemist]

Ah, but how would he KNOW about that weakness of his, and does he know of a planet with a red sun? All the suns I've ever seen have been yellow or white in the DB universe.

Aside from that, no Goku wouldn't. He'd want to fight and beat Superman at his strongest if he beat him at all.
ok first lmao at the sig dude, freaking sweet, and second yes its true he could do that, but he would have to catch him first and that could take a while

[Dr. Hax]

If I know right, I don't think its 100% based on distance. I believe Goku needs to be able to sense a power level of someone or something to be able to transport there - well in long distance anyways. If the power level is to low or far away, then he won't be able to go there.


DB didn't have power levels based off of numbers so the possibility that Superman's "Power Level" is higher than Goku's is 33.3%. The same can be said for lower than Goku's "Power Level" and equivalence in "Power Levels". They all have a 33.3% chance.

[0ne]

Well Goku would first start of easy on superman and then would go SSJ 4... Superman is faster than a speeding bullet, goku is faster than a.... well everything. Superman can catch a falling plane from the sky but seems to have a little trouble. Goku can catch a super energy ball attack from omega shinron.... Well if we are counting GT. Each time Goku fights he becomes stronger and stronger were Superman just stays the same. Goku could destroy a whole planet in a blink of an eye if he wanted to, superman can pounch all hole in something or pick up a building...? I dunno...

I just think Goku is faster and stronger than superman.

[Dr. Hax]

Well Goku would first start of easy on superman and then would go SSJ 4... Superman is faster than a speeding bullet, goku is faster than a.... well everything. Superman can catch a falling plane from the sky but seems to have a little trouble. Goku can catch a super energy ball attack from omega shinron.... Well if we are counting GT. Each time Goku fights he becomes stronger and stronger were Superman just stays the same. Goku could destroy a whole planet in a blink of an eye if he wanted to, superman can pounch all hole in something or pick up a building...? I dunno...

I just think Goku is faster and stronger than superman.

In essence, you have no valid evidence.

Kubisa provided evidence that post-crisis Superman would demo Goku.

[Sanosuke23]

Not only that, but in a fight with an alternate-universe evil version of himself, he gives a speech about how the evil one kills all his enemies so he fights them at their basic level, while Superman has fought his multiple times and each time they force him to get stronger and adapt. He then proceeds to Fist of the North Star the guy into submission.

[zathura07]

goku would win of course he is a super saiyan and can fly like superman but goku is more powerrful.

[Dr. Hax]

goku would win of course he is a super saiyan and can fly like superman but goku is more powerrful.

Any evidence to prove post-crisis can't beat Goku?

It's going to take a lot to beat Kubisa's evidence.

I'm a huge superman fan and I didn't even know some of that stuff. It's quite impressive, if I do say so myself.

Even though Goku is a super saiyan, how would he know how strong superman is?

[0ne]

Any evidence to prove post-crisis can't beat Goku?

It's going to take a lot to beat Kubisa's evidence.

I'm a huge superman fan and I didn't even know some of that stuff. It's quite impressive, if I do say so myself.

Even though Goku is a super saiyan, how would he know how strong superman is?

Well Goku can read people's power levels. So he would atleast figure out a ball park energy level of superman.

My info from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman#Powers_and_abilities AND http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Goku#Super_Saiyan_4

Superman
Superman's famous arsenal of powers has included flight, super-strength, invulnerability to non-magical attacks, super-speed, vision powers (including x-ray, heat, telescopic, infra-red, and microscopic vision), super-hearing, and super-breath, which enables him to freeze objects by blowing on them, as well as exert the propulsive force of high-speed winds.

Goku's moves
Kamehameha, Spirit Bomb, Solar Flare, Destructo Disk, After Image Technique, Eight Fists, Kaio-ken, Instant Transmission, Levitate , Telepathy, Blast Fist, Dragon Fist Explosion, Meteor Combination, Spirit Shot.

Super Strength/Power
Being of Saiyan heritage, Goku is exceptionally strong, and his strength increases substantially through training. Goku's strength also increases substantially after he heals from severe injuries; his body heals by compensating for the power lost and then adding some where it lacked in defense.

Super Speed
Even though it is not exactly certain how fast Goku can travel, on several occasions, it has been suggested that Goku by the end of Dragon Ball Z, could move faster then the speed of light (this is subjective however, as Piccolo claimed that Raditz could move faster than the speed of light, and Raditz was not nearly as powerful as Goku at the end of DBZ). This however is flawed considering that the Z Fighters themselves watch the light from someone's aura to see where they are during fast-paced battles. Vegito was suggested to have the ability to move faster then light speed, considering that he told Super Buu that he had to feel the movement of his Ki because he wouldn't be able to see him with his eyes.
Some people argue that Goku was indeed faster than light-speed by the end of Dragon Ball Z, but could also move instantaneously while using the Instant Transmission.

I think Goku would win because he is faster than superman. Goku can even do Instant Transmission. Superman and Goku were both designed for different worlds basiclly. If this was a fight to the death I don't think Goku would want to kill superman but if he gave him a reason he would max out to kill him, well at least make sure superman cant fight anymore. I just think SSJ4 would be too much form him. I dont think he could even touch Goku in a fight with his speed.

[Dr. Hax]

Well Goku can read people's power levels. So he would atleast figure out a ball park energy level of superman.

My info from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman#Powers_and_abilities AND http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Goku#Super_Saiyan_4

Superman
Superman's famous arsenal of powers has included flight, super-strength, invulnerability to non-magical attacks, super-speed, vision powers (including x-ray, heat, telescopic, infra-red, and microscopic vision), super-hearing, and super-breath, which enables him to freeze objects by blowing on them, as well as exert the propulsive force of high-speed winds.

Goku's moves
Kamehameha, Spirit Bomb, Solar Flare, Destructo Disk, After Image Technique, Eight Fists, Kaio-ken, Instant Transmission, Levitate , Telepathy, Blast Fist, Dragon Fist Explosion, Meteor Combination, Spirit Shot.

Super Strength/Power
Being of Saiyan heritage, Goku is exceptionally strong, and his strength increases substantially through training. Goku's strength also increases substantially after he heals from severe injuries; his body heals by compensating for the power lost and then adding some where it lacked in defense.

Super Speed
Even though it is not exactly certain how fast Goku can travel, on several occasions, it has been suggested that Goku by the end of Dragon Ball Z, could move faster then the speed of light (this is subjective however, as Piccolo claimed that Raditz could move faster than the speed of light, and Raditz was not nearly as powerful as Goku at the end of DBZ). This however is flawed considering that the Z Fighters themselves watch the light from someone's aura to see where they are during fast-paced battles. Vegito was suggested to have the ability to move faster then light speed, considering that he told Super Buu that he had to feel the movement of his Ki because he wouldn't be able to see him with his eyes.
Some people argue that Goku was indeed faster than light-speed by the end of Dragon Ball Z, but could also move instantaneously while using the Instant Transmission.

I think Goku would win because he is faster than superman. Goku can even do Instant Transmission. Superman and Goku were both designed for different worlds basiclly. If this was a fight to the death I don't think Goku would want to kill superman but if he gave him a reason he would max out to kill him, well at least make sure superman cant fight anymore. I just think SSJ4 would be too much form him. I dont think he could even touch Goku in a fight with his speed.

I sense a little biased goodness from both sources. (Plus, one of the .gifs of Goku makes him look like he's trying to drop a load in his outfit. xp)

Regardless, they are valid. I have continuously tried to stay out of threads like this as normally they would end with flaming and other such activity.

[Sanosuke23]

Well Goku can read people's power levels. So he would atleast figure out a ball park energy level of superman.

My info from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman#Powers_and_abilities AND http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Goku#Super_Saiyan_4

Superman
Superman's famous arsenal of powers has included flight, super-strength, invulnerability to non-magical attacks, super-speed, vision powers (including x-ray, heat, telescopic, infra-red, and microscopic vision), super-hearing, and super-breath, which enables him to freeze objects by blowing on them, as well as exert the propulsive force of high-speed winds.

Goku's moves
Kamehameha, Spirit Bomb, Solar Flare, Destructo Disk, After Image Technique, Eight Fists, Kaio-ken, Instant Transmission, Levitate , Telepathy, Blast Fist, Dragon Fist Explosion, Meteor Combination, Spirit Shot.

Super Strength/Power
Being of Saiyan heritage, Goku is exceptionally strong, and his strength increases substantially through training. Goku's strength also increases substantially after he heals from severe injuries; his body heals by compensating for the power lost and then adding some where it lacked in defense.

Super Speed
Even though it is not exactly certain how fast Goku can travel, on several occasions, it has been suggested that Goku by the end of Dragon Ball Z, could move faster then the speed of light (this is subjective however, as Piccolo claimed that Raditz could move faster than the speed of light, and Raditz was not nearly as powerful as Goku at the end of DBZ). This however is flawed considering that the Z Fighters themselves watch the light from someone's aura to see where they are during fast-paced battles. Vegito was suggested to have the ability to move faster then light speed, considering that he told Super Buu that he had to feel the movement of his Ki because he wouldn't be able to see him with his eyes.
Some people argue that Goku was indeed faster than light-speed by the end of Dragon Ball Z, but could also move instantaneously while using the Instant Transmission.

I think Goku would win because he is faster than superman. Goku can even do Instant Transmission. Superman and Goku were both designed for different worlds basiclly. If this was a fight to the death I don't think Goku would want to kill superman but if he gave him a reason he would max out to kill him, well at least make sure superman cant fight anymore. I just think SSJ4 would be too much form him. I dont think he could even touch Goku in a fight with his speed.

Faster than Superman? Did you even click Kubisa's link? It has actual comic scans to back it up, while anything with Goku is mere speculation.

For instance: http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/5899/supespeed6kt.jpg

Before she can finish a sentence, he's gone and back in his civvies.

Physical power-wise, he admits he could shatter small planets with the punches he's throwing and he was holding back at the time:

http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trinity05003vl7.jpg

As for the Kamehameha and other force beams, while I can't get a perfect equivalent obviously, the fact that Supes eats this much of something similar without so much as a scratch or torn article of clothing should tell you something:

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/60/09122118lq.jpg
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3651/durability55et.jpg
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3443/09131329ai.jpg
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/4640/durability20ki.jpg (Bill Clinton thanks God for Superman, lulz)
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/1761/durability35ln.jpg (Superman gets sucker punched)
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/9263/211117fk.jpg

As for sheer power, a blast equal to one million nukes gives him a concussion:

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/850/0822346hj.jpg
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3932/08222005121910pm8yp.jpg
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6301/089054127na.jpg

... And he manages to live through an exploding sun, though at least knocked unconscious from the looks of it. Keep in mind, anytime anyone in the DB universe touches the sun, they disintegrate to nothingness:

http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=explody2wx1.jpg

His heat vision was mentioned previously, for the record its power is beyond measurement in the DCU, which makes me think it's at least comparable to a Kamehameha wave:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/863/supermansheatvision30nk.jpg

As for how accurate he is with his heat vision:

http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09ae1.jpg

Superman one-shotting a moon in frustration, for the lulz and yes it is real:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10039617

Finally, just because it makes me lol and will probably be seen in my sig sometime in the near future, Superman Fist of the North Star-ing Evil Universe Superman:

http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trinity13p06zw7.jpg


All of these are from the link Kubisa provided, from both the first page and pages 70-85. Too lazy to hunt any deeper.

EDIT: No I'm not, here's one more for now at least. Superman doesn't LOSE his powers in a red sun apparently, just loses the ability to access them:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanredsun.jpg

Also note that he was talking to Batman about fixing that.

[0ne]

Well Instant Transmission is Instant and he can travel to other plants far away. He just has to pin point where he wants to go, via a person. But I am sure he is as fast or faster because of After Image Technique. Hes moving so fast hes leaving an image of himself while hes far away.

Well check this out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7jcXk8w8j0 At the point where they are circling around, goku makes atleast 8 images of himself and another 8 images a little faded. They are moving so fast they can even figure out which one is the real one.

Well this is kinda hard to figure out, this part. If Goku could get all the energy from everyone in the universe like he did in ep. 63 I doubt Superman could even stop that himself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHuDZXNRhiA

I bring this up, Dragon Z ep 15 because of nappa. He did a simple attack of left his hand up and destroyed a whole city. 4:30 min mark. A blast so strong it can be seen from outer space. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPZB52E55HU
Keep in mind, how strong they are right now. Being able to destory a city with an attack like that.

Vegeta in Dragon Ball Z a very early appearance. Him and Nappa make quick work of the planet and then decide to destroy it. With a simple beam from his hand to the planet, is even brings in the planets moon and blows up. I pick this video since its was cutt up by a person but shows what happen in the full length one. 3:16 sec mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b014CPU28LU&feature=related

This is just to show how strong they are at early DBZ eps. Now at SSJ4 they are not even on the same scale, not even close.

I understand superman man is fast. But can Superman sense energy levels? I ask this because if he cannot he wont be able to keep up with Goku. You cannot keep up with someone with only your eyes.

Also in eps. 15 It took Goku nearly a year to make it all the way through. Now it will only take him 2 days.
Just another thing to think about. How far he has come. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfUz2u2OdtA&feature=related

Superman is powerful from what I read. Since this is in a mag. they tel you a lot about everything. but in eps 15. listen to the first part of the convo Goku had after he finished mastering the Spirit Bomb. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfUz2u2OdtA&feature=related

Only if they talked more about his speed and attack power. lol

[Azure samurai]

man its goku hands down no competition......

[Kubisa]

I understand superman man is fast. But can Superman sense energy levels? I ask this because if he cannot he wont be able to keep up with Goku. You cannot keep up with someone with only your eyes.


Superman can keep up with The Flash using his eyes.

The Flash that can actually move faster than the speed of light.

[0ne]

Well there is keeping up and fighting. I just dont think Superman could keep up with Goku if he is using Instant Transmission and After Image Technique with his already fast speed he has.

It's really hard to say since they were both created for different worlds. They both help people out. Goku would only fight if Superman did something unforgivable.

I would like to see this done. But it's kinda hard since people would still have to pick a winner. Will you could have a computer and have them both fight in a game. This would only work if they some how figured out boths attack power, speed and strategies how they fight. Then have the computer face its selves on both the hardest settings. To be some what of a fair way to figure out who would win.

It really comes out to, the creators coming out and saying how strong and fasts, and all that good stuff is. Then you would have a way better idea.

[Kubisa]

Instant transmission is never actually used in combat, apart from as a tactical trick (moving to in front of Cell to blast him with Kamehama Wave or whatever).

Also Superman can fight at speeds at least equal to Goku.

Superman fighting at high speeds.

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/...115613am7bx.jpg

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/...124311pm3un.jpg

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/9203/pics0017bn.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/...20mongul202.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/...ndmongul8pr.jpg


Superman is able to fight so fast he leaves after-images with no intent of doing so.

I've never seen Goku actually fight with after-images, but just use them as a diversion.

[0ne]

Well Goku always figures out his enemies like Superman will. I wouldn't doubt they both would use all of their tricks under their sleeves. If they are both about the same speed, this can be, wont ever really know.

When its down to strength, they really never compared Goku's power to anything but other enemies. But seeing them point 2 fingers and shoot a laser beam at a planet from outer space and have that planet pull in its moon then blow up both, thats crazy. They did that in the begining of DBZ, now they are SSJ4. Like Superman saying hes holding back cuz he could destroy small planets when his punches. That's really strong but did he come anymore stronger now?

This is so hard to pick who would win, cuz we don't have the facts and since they were both created for different worlds.... Blah I still say Goku would win, hes stronger, lol

[Sanosuke23]

I beg to differ about Goku being physically stronger. He can shoot energy beams that destroy planets on their own, sure, but Supes does it WITH A PUNCH. A PUNCH. ONE. FIST, GROUND, OBLITERATED.

Plus, Superman is a diety-level being, according to some of that link's scans. Other Kryptonians(Supergirl, Power Girl, etc.) are much weaker than him, so it isn't just that he's Kryptonian. Goku post-GT is probably more in his bracket.

[0ne]

Well that's why we are talkig about Gt since you guys are talking about post- crisis or what ever Superman. LOL


SSJ4 Goku vs post-crisis Superman

God if they ever made that anime show it would be prolly the most epic fight of all time. Prolly the longest fight too, maybe...

But How are they going to meet and even fight though? Goku will fight for fun but won't go all out. I think Superman wouldn't fight either unless he had a good reason too... LOL

Well if its on earth, who do the people like.. Because in the end of GT, they had a statue of Goku, so they atleast know of what he did and like him enough to make a statue of him. Well and Superman, they all know him and like him...

[Light Buster]

Actually, there is a way to solve that problem although it wouldn't feature Goku unfortunaly. I can just play Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe and I can answer that question. But in terms of Goku and Superman. It depends on who lands the first strike and how it battles out.

[0ne]

Well if developers would make a game just for Goku and post-crisis Superman to fight in. Add all of their powers and their techniques and fighting styles. Figured out what speed they both would move at and figured out attack power on their moves and over all power. Then had a computer fight against it self and make it on the hardest and highest level possible so the AI is like perfect. Than have them fight and winner of 2 out of 3 is the Best. LOL

[Sanosuke23]

Well that's why we are talkig about Gt since you guys are talking about post- crisis or what ever Superman. LOL


SSJ4 Goku vs post-crisis Superman

God if they ever made that anime show it would be prolly the most epic fight of all time. Prolly the longest fight too, maybe...

But How are they going to meet and even fight though? Goku will fight for fun but won't go all out. I think Superman wouldn't fight either unless he had a good reason too... LOL

Well if its on earth, who do the people like.. Because in the end of GT, they had a statue of Goku, so they atleast know of what he did and like him enough to make a statue of him. Well and Superman, they all know him and like him...

Post-crisis Superman is actually WEAKER than Pre-crisis Superman.. Pre-crisis Supes could do anything, literally anything. Everything was a superpower, and if he didn't have a superpower they gave him one. He was beyond anything, because he was written to never lose.

This is why we are using POST-crisis Superman, because while powerful he actually has limits.

[InuArt12]

Honestly in all truth and respect to the character's personalities. Nither is smart enough to NOT be tricked. Watching both growing up, I would think if they did meet and fight, it would be by both being tricked by one or a group of each of their arch enemies. They would probably be made to think the other was evil and trying to hurt the Earth in some way or another. Then they would both give their all. Eventually they would realize what was going on and go after the true villians, beat them, then maybe later fight for fun. If they did fight for the fun, they would both hold back. In all honesty I think they would leave it at a tie out of respect for each others powers. It's not in Goku's nature to leave it at a tie but I think he would follow suit with Superman

[nerohawk]

did ya'll see the death of superman he can be beaten bye someone just as powerful as him if not more and i think goku hands down is way more poweful
Its call SUPER SAIYIN 4

[0ne]

Yeah, I just can't see them fighting without a reason. I understand that they want Superman to always win in pre-crisis but you would think the people would want Goku to win too. So you would see Superman becoming stronger than ever before fighting Goku if it was the case if he was Pre-crisis because they would make Goku reach SSJ5 in the fight with Superman because Superman pushed Goku to newer endless limits and so on. LOL

I cant see them getting in a fight or see this fighting ending any time soon if they did fight. They could make a a whole couple seasons on an anime about Superman and Goku fighting non-stop. lol Their fight would be the end of planet earth and the planets around them from the sher power they would put off maxing each other out. IT WOULD BE THE MOST EPIC FIGHT IN HISTORY HANDS DOWN. I want to see this, LOL I do not care who wins or loses, just to see this fight would make me happy. but if Goku did win, the " I told you so" would be nice. mhaahahah

[Sanosuke23]

Yeah, I just can't see them fighting without a reason. I understand that they want Superman to always win in pre-crisis but you would think the people would want Goku to win too. So you would see Superman becoming stronger than ever before fighting Goku if it was the case if he was Pre-crisis because they would make Goku reach SSJ5 in the fight with Superman because Superman pushed Goku to newer endless limits and so on. LOL

No no, you misunderstand. Nobody WANTS pre-crisis Superman to win, ever. He is WRITTEN to always win. Goku CAN lose, and therefore he would.

I cant see them getting in a fight or see this fighting ending any time soon if they did fight. They could make a a whole couple seasons on an anime about Superman and Goku fighting non-stop. lol Their fight would be the end of planet earth and the planets around them from the sher power they would put off maxing each other out. IT WOULD BE THE MOST EPIC FIGHT IN HISTORY HANDS DOWN. I want to see this, LOL I do not care who wins or loses, just to see this fight would make me happy. but if Goku did win, the " I told you so" would be nice. mhaahahah

I already pointed out that Superman wouldn't fight Goku as soon as he realized Goku was doing it for fun. I guess technically Goku wins on account of Superman not caring.

[dragoninja]

goku just keeps coming back to life with the dragon balls and then theres those sensu beans or whatever there called

supermans prety invencable except for that cryptonite

who knows ... sigh:closedeye now i wanna see them duke it out

[Anime-Prince]

All the 'evidence' i've seen is nothing more than speculation in itself. We don't know anything really about these two great warriors. We don't know how superman would react in the DBZ world, or how goku would react in the DC world. I know both claim to take part on earth at some point but face it, the earth is considerably different in both worlds. Plus because the creator of superman proabably didnt think of it there is no evidence to say that superman isnt actually weak to the power of a saiyan. Also the limit of both of these amazing warriors still hasnt been reached. So who knows.. perhaps they would drive each other to different strengths.

Theres no way of ever having evidence that one would beat the other. So i see a draw.

[0ne]

yeah, they can still bring Goku back if they ever wanted to start a series again since hes not dead and they said he will come back when the world needs him again. If that day comes, SSJ5!

Until the day we see Superman die and never come back and no more series... he can still become stronger and stronger over time.

[Xsap]

Goku is simply the best. No way Superman can beat him

[Sanosuke23]

yeah, they can still bring Goku back if they ever wanted to start a series again since hes not dead and they said he will come back when the world needs him again. If that day comes, SSJ5!

Until the day we see Superman die and never come back and no more series... he can still become stronger and stronger over time.


The key problem for your argument is "If they ever wanted to." They haven't, and putting in things writers MIGHT do with a character is nowhere near counting.

If it is, the writers MIGHT make it so that Superman decides to kill Goku with a single punch.

[Sanosuke23]

All the 'evidence' i've seen is nothing more than speculation in itself. We don't know anything really about these two great warriors. We don't know how superman would react in the DBZ world, or how goku would react in the DC world. I know both claim to take part on earth at some point but face it, the earth is considerably different in both worlds. Plus because the creator of superman proabably didnt think of it there is no evidence to say that superman isnt actually weak to the power of a saiyan. Also the limit of both of these amazing warriors still hasnt been reached. So who knows.. perhaps they would drive each other to different strengths.

Theres no way of ever having evidence that one would beat the other. So i see a draw.

Except that a link was provided with comic book pages, CANON comic book pages, in support of Superman. In these pages, things are said or done, and can be reasonably compared to things that have been said or done by Goku. So far, the only thing I can really hand Goku is that he can use energy beams/balls/etc. with more variety than Superman.


As for the Death of Superman, are you even aware of what happened? The thing that "killed" him ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_(comics)) was a creature that posseses something called Reactive Adaptation or Reactive Evolution. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_comic_book_superhero_powers#Reactive_adapt ation.2Fevolution) Basically, it's something like the Saiyan ability to return from the brink of death much stronger than before, only taken to an extreme. The creature actually evolves to become resistant or immune to whatever it is killed it. Even against this, Superman killed it and "died" himself in the process. It came back, and to be honest this thing is like Broly on crack minus the energy beams. It's effectively immortal, and Superman had to send it to the End of Time to be rid of it. Someone brought it back, and it is now residing on the moon, being teleported between four teleportation booths for eternity.

But wait, Superman came back. How? Well, according to Wikipedia: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Superman#Reign_of_the_Supermen.21)In actuality, the Last Son of Krypton stole Superman's body and put it in a regeneration matrix in the Fortress of Solitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_Solitude)...

So don't act like Superman's one death is somehow more fatal than Goku's two(three if you wanna count GT).

[nerohawk]

SUPERMAN HAX THE UNIVERSE.
SRSLY.
HE CAN'T DIE.
AND THAT "DEATH OF SUPERMAN" CARTOON MOVE.
HE COMES BACK.
GOKU CAN DIE LOTS.
HE DOES DIE LOTS.
GOKU WOULD GET PWND.
FACE IT.
SUPERMAN HAS LASER EYES. SRSLY.
ARE YOU PEOPLE CRAZY?
AND THE HURRICANE SNEEZES.
AND HE TAKES 50 CAL. GUNSHOTS TO THE EYE.
NO RLY GOKU WOULD DIE.
Goku is cooler, but Superman cheats. You notice that the only way superman even bleeds a LITTLE bit is the MAGICAL RADIATION GREEN ROCK+ stabbing? Did you notice that Goku bleeds a lot when he get hit in the nose?
NOTICE THAT?
Did you notice in the cartoon movie were sups bleeds alot..........
and I dont think he was being hit bye krypto fist!!!:eek:

I do believe that if someone or SAIYAN can equal or surpass sups strength and ability to take a hit then the can make sups pleed and horrorbly bad too epsecially someone like The son of bardock himself. and about the 50 cal i remember when raditz, an ant to goku, caught a bullet so i am pretty sure goku can take a 50 cal. to the eye. no prob


If by now yall dont kow Goku would win, but it would be one hell of a fight

[Sanosuke23]

Did you notice in the cartoon movie were sups bleeds alot..........
and I dont think he was being hit bye krypto fist!!!:eek:

I do believe that if someone or SAIYAN can equal or surpass sups strength and ability to take a hit then the can make sups pleed and horrorbly bad too epsecially someone like The son of bardock himself. and about the 50 cal i remember when raditz, an ant to goku, caught a bullet so i am pretty sure goku can take a 50 cal. to the eye. no prob


If by now yall dont kow Goku would win, but it would be one hell of a fight


1) Way to ignore every other post in favor of Superman, especially the ones with how much damage Superman can take/dish out.

2) This point has been withdrawn, as *! has corrected me. I haven't seen Dragonball in forever, so the fact that people actually used guns more than twice ever slipped my memory.

[TheAsterisk!]

...You guys are still at it?
And I thought I was a geek. Wow.

Hey, Sanosuke! Your first numbered point is sound, but try again with the caught bullet. (1) Roshi, lil' Goku and lil' Krillin have all survived head shots. This was in Dragonball, way early on. They get a lil' bruised up, sometimes get nicked, but nothing more happens. (2) Considering Roshi's power level is measured at 139 early in DBZ, and Goku's easily exceeds one million (he defeated Frieza, right?), I don't think the bullet would do much to him at all. He's something like ten thousand times as strong as a man that can survive several shots to the head from an automatic weapon (thanks, Lunch/Launch) when he defeats Frieza, and you claim Goku would be harmed by a bullet if he doesn't catch it?
Malarkey.
He probably just doesn't want to upset Chichi by ruining his clothes with bullet holes. She could deprive him of her meals, after all.

[0ne]

Goku has a weakness its called his stomach. Or over powering him to the point you would blow up the planet and other planets nearby if you are't careful.

[doomboy536]

Oh good grief, this really is the argument that will never end. Personally I hope both of those one-dimensonal overhyped losers kill themselves so the world pays more attention to more interesting characters.

[SigmaSD]

Goku hands down. You see, Goku has no weaknesses. He lost his tail a long time ago. Superman on the other hand is weak when he's confronted with Kryptonite. All Goku has to do get some Kryptonite, and Superman is down.

Is Goku weak from radioactive pieces of Planet Vegeta? If he was, then I'd say it'd be a pretty close match.

[Miz]

Goku hands down. You see, Goku has no weaknesses. He lost his tail a long time ago. Superman on the other hand is weak when he's confronted with Kryptonite. All Goku has to do get some Kryptonite, and Superman is down.

Is Goku weak from radioactive pieces of Planet Vegeta? If he was, then I'd say it'd be a pretty close match.

Actually Goku does have a few weaknesses.

1 - His stomach.

2 - His heart, if he was going to spare Frieza, then who would he not spare?

3 - Needles.

4 - Doctors, because of the doctor needles.

[Sanosuke23]

Oh good grief, this really is the argument that will never end. Personally I hope both of those one-dimensonal overhyped losers kill themselves so the world pays more attention to more interesting characters.

Neither of them is one-dimensional. In fact, Superman has quite a bit of depth, and if Goku was placed in a similar format I'm sure he would be fleshed out a bit more as well.

Just because you don't read things and go strictly by the symbols the two respective characters have become doesn't mean they're one-dimensional.

[doomboy536]

Neither of them is one-dimensional. In fact, Superman has quite a bit of depth, and if Goku was placed in a similar format I'm sure he would be fleshed out a bit more as well.

Just because you don't read things and go strictly by the symbols the two respective characters have become doesn't mean they're one-dimensional.

Meh, I just don't buy into the whole "unbeatable hero" business. Give me someone with real weaknesses any day.

EDIT: Just noticed your sig, and it is awesome.

[Sanosuke23]

Meh, I just don't buy into the whole "unbeatable hero" business. Give me someone with real weaknesses any day.

EDIT: Just noticed your sig, and it is awesome.

That's your prerogative, but the "unbeatable hero" is an archetype. There's plenty of room for individuality and characterization there. I have to ask though, and this goes for anyone with that attitude: What do you consider a "weakness" suitable for a protagonist, then? What, every hero all the time has to lose to villains who then proceed to BAD END the world? If yes, wow. If no, Superman was here first, go get some other, freshmeat unbeatable hero to take the lumps. I can think of a few from both sides of the Pacific.

As for a lack of depth, what do you want? Supes was raised on a farm and Goku was raised in the mountains by an old man, until that old man died. They led simple lives, and have a simple outlook on life as a result.

[Anime-Prince]

Except that a link was provided with comic book pages, CANON comic book pages, in support of Superman. In these pages, things are said or done, and can be reasonably compared to things that have been said or done by Goku. So far, the only thing I can really hand Goku is that he can use energy beams/balls/etc. with more variety than Superman.


As for the Death of Superman, are you even aware of what happened? The thing that "killed" him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_(comics)) was a creature that posseses something called Reactive Adaptation or Reactive Evolution. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_comic_book_superhero_powers#Reactive_adapt ation.2Fevolution) Basically, it's something like the Saiyan ability to return from the brink of death much stronger than before, only taken to an extreme. The creature actually evolves to become resistant or immune to whatever it is killed it. Even against this, Superman killed it and "died" himself in the process. It came back, and to be honest this thing is like Broly on crack minus the energy beams. It's effectively immortal, and Superman had to send it to the End of Time to be rid of it. Someone brought it back, and it is now residing on the moon, being teleported between four teleportation booths for eternity.

But wait, Superman came back. How? Well, according to Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Superman#Reign_of_the_Supermen.21)

So don't act like Superman's one death is somehow more fatal than Goku's two(three if you wanna count GT).

Dont act like supermans one death is somehow more fatal? I didn't say anything like that at any point. So read what i said before acusing me of something so rediculous please. :) Cheers.

And all you've said is that things goku and superman have done can be compared. Which is true. I didn't dispute that. What i said was that we dont know how they'd react to each others worlds or how they'd react to the effect of each others powers.

[Sanosuke23]

Dont act like supermans one death is somehow more fatal? I didn't say anything like that at any point. So read what i said before acusing me of something so rediculous please. :) Cheers.

And all you've said is that things goku and superman have done can be compared. Which is true. I didn't dispute that. What i said was that we dont know how they'd react to each others worlds or how they'd react to the effect of each others powers.

The Superman death reply was in regards to something someone else said, sorry I didn't make that clearer.

[Shadow_Nin9a]

was there a comic of superman vs goku?

is superman's major weakness is kryptonite then wat is goku's weakness won't be his tail cuz he trained his tail stronger and if its adult goku then his tail wont be there.

[Anime-Prince]

The Superman death reply was in regards to something someone else said, sorry I didn't make that clearer.

Lol it's okay. :)

[SigmaSD]

I think Goku is the Japanese superman. The reason is that both of their stories are similar.

1. Both of their planets are destroyed right before they left.
2. They both had incredible strength when they were here on Earth.
3. Both of them had to fight people from their own planet, and they both initially sucked in the fight.

[Sanosuke23]

I think Goku is the Japanese superman. The reason is that both of their stories are similar.

1. Both of their planets are destroyed right before they left.
2. They both had incredible strength when they were here on Earth.
3. Both of them had to fight people from their own planet, and they both initially sucked in the fight.

Actually, Akira Toriyama has repeatedly mentioned Superman was a pretty big influence over Goku's development. He's a huge fan of Western comics and cartoons.

[0ne]

Lets think about it this way.

Goku will fight anyone for fun. Superman prolly rather fight when its needed. Goku won't kill someone unless its a must, last resort for him. Superman not as easy going but will only fight when its saving the world or someone so he will kill, must likely.

So if Goku got in a Fight with Superman. Goku would have killing on his mind since its Superman hes fighting. Cuz Superman would not be holding back and would be trying to kill Goku because of his strength giving incentive for Goku to do the same.

If this unlikely fight is even happening, I see no sense in him not using kryptonite on Superman, why? They are already fighting, this wouldn't happen in the first place. LOL You don't go all out of someone who is good.

[Miz]

So if Goku got in a Fight with Superman. Goku would have killing on his mind since its Superman hes fighting. [/quote]

I'm not to sure about that because why would he have killing on his mind? I doubt he would be thinking to kill superman. Goku would just think of it as a friendly challenge and he would not want to kill superman because the man of steel has no intent of causing any damage to planet Earth, thus he would not want to kill superman.


Of course as saiyan nature goes, Goku would be glad of the challenge but would rather, after the fight that him and superman team up. It makes more sense then them Goku killing superman or superman killing Goku.

[0ne]

We are talking about who would win in a fight.... If this is not to the death then they are both holding back. Superman won't fight Goku just for the fun of it, its not in his nature.

The only way they would fight is if someone is the bad guy.... That's the point. Either Superman or Goku would have to do something unforgivable for them to fight each other at their max.

This is who would in in a fight right? If its not to the death then what is it too? Till they cant left a finger anymore?

If you watched Goku and he is serious and fighting a person on your level or higher, he will be thinking of a way to end the fight fast as possible and that would be killing Superman.


Maybe Goku will turn SSJ5 fighting Superman, lol Every time he fights he becomes stronger, its the saiyan way.

[SigmaSD]

Actually, Akira Toriyama has repeatedly mentioned Superman was a pretty big influence over Goku's development. He's a huge fan of Western comics and cartoons.

I didn't know that, thanks. But I was just saying that if Goku fought Superman, it'd be like him fighting against himself. But now I'm going to finish this argument.

Universal Spirit Bomb. No way Superman could survive that. And if he did, he'd probably just admit defeat to Goku, since neither of them would want to kill each other. And Superman has nothing in his arsenal that compares to that.

[Sanosuke23]

I didn't know that, thanks. But I was just saying that if Goku fought Superman, it'd be like him fighting against himself. But now I'm going to finish this argument.

Universal Spirit Bomb. No way Superman could survive that. And if he did, he'd probably just admit defeat to Goku, since neither of them would want to kill each other. And Superman has nothing in his arsenal that compares to that.

The only problem is that the USB takes too long to gather the energy for, and since both of them are fairly even in terms of power this fight is definitely one that would rely on the speed and accuracy of attacks as opposed to who can make the biggest boom.

To be frank, I don't think Goku's fighting style is, by default, set up for facing someone who's roughly his equal but doesn't need to gather or expend chi energy for his attacks. Not to say that he wouldn't figure something out and adapt accordingly, Goku is nothing if not resourceful when it comes to combat, but during their first fight I don't see him falling into the proper "rhythm" to win. Maybe if they had a series of fights and Goku had prep time in between each one he might pull a couple out, but I think first blood would go to Supes.

[0ne]

Well hes doesn't use the Spirit bomb unless its a last resort but he seems to always get it off at the very end, lol A small scale spirit bomb with the slightest error can lead to the earth blowing up.

Yeah, Goku kind of screws around in the start to test is enemy's attacks and strengths and that might be a bad idea fighting Superman. He not stupid though and won't get himself killed in the first 5 mins and Superman will prolly draw first blood, but Goku will draw blood too transforming if he has not already or use a stronger technique on him. Hes just full of surprises.. lol

[ridler2013]

Goku hands down. You see, Goku has no weaknesses. He lost his tail a long time ago. Superman on the other hand is weak when he's confronted with Kryptonite. All Goku has to do get some Kryptonite, and Superman is down.

Is Goku weak from radioactive pieces of Planet Vegeta? If he was, then I'd say it'd be a pretty close match.

I agree with you plus the fact that superman can't keep up with the speed of Goku... Yeah Superman can fly fast but can he also fight in quick speed? I don't think so if he is that fast how come he was killed in Doomsday? :closedeye

[Miz]

I agree with you plus the fact that superman can't keep up with the speed of Goku... Yeah Superman can fly fast but can he also fight in quick speed? I don't think so if he is that fast how come he was killed in Doomsday? :closedeye

Did anyone read my reply at all? Oh well I'll have to explain again. Goku does have a few weaknesses.

1 - His heart, he spares villains too easily. He almost spared Frieza twice.

2 - Needles, he hates them.

3 - Doctors.

4 - His stomach, he gets weaker when he's hungry.

[SigmaSD]

Did anyone read my reply at all? Oh well I'll have to explain again. Goku does have a few weaknesses.

1 - His heart, he spares villains too easily. He almost spared Frieza twice.

2 - Needles, he hates them.

3 - Doctors.

4 - His stomach, he gets weaker when he's hungry.




First, needles won't kill him. He's afraid of them, but they won't kill him, so that doesn't really count as a weakness.

Second, the reason he's afraid of doctors is because of needles, so you can't call it a different weakness.

Finally, he never had any problems with his stomach in DBZ, only in Dragonball, so it's no longer one of his weaknesses.

The only legitimate weakness is his heart, but Superman won't want to kill Goku either since he's not a villain.

[Miz]

First, needles won't kill him. He's afraid of them, but they won't kill him, so that doesn't really count as a weakness.

Second, the reason he's afraid of doctors is because of needles, so you can't call it a different weakness.

Finally, he never had any problems with his stomach in DBZ, only in Dragonball, so it's no longer one of his weaknesses.

The only legitimate weakness is his heart, but Superman won't want to kill Goku either since he's not a villain.

Fine you got me with the doctor one but you can call the needle one a weakness. Think, if he is afraid of needles then of course its a weakness of his. We never got to see what would happen in the show or manga if one of them used a needle. We also saw on dragon ball gt that he was scared of needles even though dbgt was close to a failure. Also, you stated that he has no weaknesses before on a post which does not mean on the match vs superman. I was talking about overall, so yep, he has weaknesses.

[Android 19-90]

Goku doesn't care about blowing holes in people. Superman is against killing. Goku has the advantage.

(also by the way I'm attempting to get a crossover forum running (see sig link)).

[0ne]

This would be easyer if one of them is a villain. lol Just because lets say Superman was the invader on earth and killed lots of people or someone close to Goku. This would push Goku to the point of showing no mercy. Even though he has a good heart and did show mercy on Frieza, later in the show he started to get the job done when things got really bad. He would not give Superman the chance if he killed lots of people and people close to him.

I think Goku would still be able to pull of a Spirit Bomb on Superman, maybe not a USB but maybe an Earth Spirit bomb for sure.

[*Tsuki*]

A lot of people are saying that Goku would win, but Superman must be pretty strong (willed) to be able to run around in that outfit each day . . .
Although, if Superman is so stupid as to put his under garmets on wrong, he can't be that smart. . .
Goku can wear his clothes right, so I think that he'd win. XD

also, how the heck did they get to be in a battle? was it a huge miss understanding and they're against each other because they think that the other is evil? If so, they aren't very original because this plot twist has been used way to many times.

[Sanosuke23]

This would be easyer if one of them is a villain. lol Just because lets say Superman was the invader on earth and killed lots of people or someone close to Goku. This would push Goku to the point of showing no mercy. Even though he has a good heart and did show mercy on Frieza, later in the show he started to get the job done when things got really bad. He would not give Superman the chance if he killed lots of people and people close to him.

I think Goku would still be able to pull of a Spirit Bomb on Superman, maybe not a USB but maybe an Earth Spirit bomb for sure.

Unfortunately for Goku, I don't think a normal, "I'm pulling energy from the earth in general without the assistance of its inhabitants" Spirit Bomb will be enough to seriously damage Superman. Besides, he wouldn't have enough time to power up the attack with Goku's super-speed and no compulsion to watch him power up.

[Deathwishsa]

OK Goku's MUCH BETTER MUCH MUCH BETTER

And besides super man falled off a horse HAHAHA

[The Ultimate One K Dash]

one word...G.O.K.U

[SigmaSD]

OK Goku's MUCH BETTER MUCH MUCH BETTER

And besides super man falled off a horse HAHAHA

Though your comment is funny, it's still offensive. After all, the man is dead already.

[0ne]

Yes Superman did die. Looks like Goku wins.

but it is sad he died though.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

Unfortunately for Goku, I don't think a normal, "I'm pulling energy from the earth in general without the assistance of its inhabitants" Spirit Bomb will be enough to seriously damage Superman. Besides, he wouldn't have enough time to power up the attack with Goku's super-speed and no compulsion to watch him power up.
Of course there's a compulsion to stand still and watch someone transform/power-up. Don't you know nothing?

[Sanosuke23]

Of course there's a compulsion to stand still and watch someone transform/power-up. Don't you know nothing?

Superman is not bound by the rules of Animu. Most of the time in western comics when someone's "powering up" it either happens behind a meatshield or so quickly there's hardly enough time for witty banter.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

Superman is not bound by the rules of Animu. Most of the time in western comics when someone's "powering up" it either happens behind a meatshield or so quickly there's hardly enough time for witty banter.
Haven't you ever stopped and thought that the reason that transformation-based paralysis doesn't happen western comics is strictly because the transformations are much quicker? I'm sure with marginal effort we could find long charge-up/transformation sequences in comics that people feel unduly compelled to watch.

[Sanosuke23]

Haven't you ever stopped and thought that the reason that transformation-based paralysis doesn't happen western comics is strictly because the transformations are much quicker? I'm sure with marginal effort we could find long charge-up/transformation sequences in comics that people feel unduly compelled to watch.

I suppose, but then again western comics have more of an edge of cynicism to them. It'd have to be an old, non-revamped SUPERvillain in order for that to apply, lest they "buck the trend" and appear "edgy" and "realistic."

Very rarely nowadays do superhero comics have the same spirit of "this makes no sense!" Hell, in Marvel people petitioned the government to register all superpowered beings and make them accountable for all the thrown cars and crushed buildings and what-have-you. DC's more fantastic but character interaction is still kept at a minimal level of cheese.

[Lord of Death]

I think that Goku would win hands down... I mean superman is good, but I don't think he could handle the power and strengh of Goku..

[tommyhales]

ok superman is strong rely strong but goku has the power to blow up a planet with his frikkin hand with out trying goku would have difficalt and would most proberbly lose if it was at the beginning if dbz or like when he was fighting vageta but supersayian would wipe superman out 1 kamehameha would vaperise superman nomatter how strong he is. superman is the man of steel well goku can bend steel lol

[Knave545]

Goku, maybe? I mean you can't really compare Superman, and Goku. I see this in a lot of different forums too.

[Ciel-chan]

Of course is Goku. With the ultimate power he will crush Superman easily :rolleyes:

[Dr. Hax]

I agree with you plus the fact that superman can't keep up with the speed of Goku... Yeah Superman can fly fast but can he also fight in quick speed? I don't think so if he is that fast how come he was killed in Doomsday? :closedeye

He wasn't pre-crisis in Doomsday, genius.

Of course is Goku. With the ultimate power he will crush Superman easily

There is no such thing as an ultimate power. If there were, Japan probably would've discovered it already since they're so technologically advanced.

ok superman is strong rely strong but goku has the power to blow up a planet with his frikkin hand with out trying goku would have difficalt and would most proberbly lose if it was at the beginning if dbz or like when he was fighting vageta but supersayian would wipe superman out 1 kamehameha would vaperise superman nomatter how strong he is. superman is the man of steel well goku can bend steel lol

You don't know that for sure, dude. With the way you put it, you sound like one of those elitist geeks who always have to be right or they won't get Windex for their horn-rimmed glasses. In addition, you don't just wait for someone to power up. (even though shows always do that) You just blitz them when they try it. People see Superman as the "All-American Hero" of sorts. (I may be mistaken.) You also didn't cover the elements of battle, the playing field, if you will.

God, this thread's edge got quite dull when junior geeks with no proof showed up

[Sanosuke23]

He wasn't pre-crisis in Doomsday, genius.



There is no such thing as an ultimate power. If there were, Japan probably would've discovered it already since they're so technologically advanced.



You don't know that for sure, dude. With the way you put it, you sound like one of those elitist geeks who always have to be right or they won't get Windex for their horn-rimmed glasses. In addition, you don't just wait for someone to power up. (even though shows always do that) You just blitz them when they try it. People see Superman as the "All-American Hero" of sorts. (I may be mistaken.) You also didn't cover the elements of battle, the playing field, if you will.

God, this thread's edge got quite dull when junior geeks with no proof showed up

As it often does!

Quite frankly, the Superman side has been the only one to give any serious proof in the form of scanned comic pages.

However, I have learned in the newer Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman Trinity series(I believe that's where it's from, I could be very wrong) that Supes isn't that great against a trained fighter.

The scene is basically Wonder Woman and Superman talking about who would win in a no-powers hand-to-hand fight. Wonder Woman freely admits that Superman's both stronger and faster, but he isn't a trained warrior like she is. Superman argues this, but then Batman comes down and agrees with her. Given this information, we can infer that in a point-based match, Goku would likely be able to outdo Superman. However, his other abilities and overall toughness are a mitigating factor, but it does tilt at least the melee side of things in Goku's favor.

[Dr. Hax]

You still haven't covered the playing field itself. In other words, the area of battle, location, time of day, etc.

[IFS]

even a normal human can beat superman if he just wears cloves made with criptonite in them or something, and if superman looses hes powers he can't fight because he depens to much on them, goku's go martial arts training

[Dr. Hax]

even a normal human can beat superman if he just wears cloves made with criptonite in them or something, and if superman looses hes powers he can't fight because he depens to much on them, goku's go martial arts training

Where the [expletive] are you going to get Kryptonite Gloves? Training means [expletive] in a fight.

[blackrosetwilight]

goku wins since he needs to leave a city to fight someone because he's too stong.....super man on the other hand doesnt see the diffrence in power. Oh and goku can draw power from all over the universe superman only gets it fromt he sun another win for goku.

[Lady_Saiyan]

Of course Goku will win but I don't think he will kill Superman, Goku will probably just beat Superman intil he's unconscious then give him a senzo bean and then they will work together to save Earth from danger (if their worlds cross over).

[Sanosuke23]

You still haven't covered the playing field itself. In other words, the area of battle, location, time of day, etc.

Well, considering that the course of one night isn't a sufficient lack of sunlight to cause Superman any ill effects and Goku isn't affected one way or the other, time of day makes very little difference. Either combatant would rather take the fight away from the populace, so "generic field" should suffice. The "area" of the battle could easily start spanning the globe, if that's what you were getting at.

To be honest a lot of that doesn't matter though, Superman's described his time on this planet as living in a "world of cardboard," where he literally has to restrain himself from accidentally destroying anything he touches even if it's, like, a sneeze or something. More than once he's faced enemies that are near his level of toughness, and he's actually happy that he gets to stop holding back.

Goku, on the other hand, is very similar in concept but the "world of cardboard" aspect is never really brought up at all. His actual threshold for anything is relatively vague in normal human reckoning, all we get is that he's "strong." They never really touched upon HOW strong.

I should also point out that if it weren't for the rest of the Z Fighters, Goku wouldn't have won against a single enemy in DBZ. He's VERY much a team player, and requires allies to soften up or distract someone while he does something powerful. Superman's THE be-all-end-all of the DC Universe, and has taken more than his fair share of enemies solo. Of course there are enemies he can't take alone, that's why there's the Justice League, but most of the time that's more to do with multiple events happening at the same time as opposed to one strong enemy that's difficult to beat.

[blackrosetwilight]

batman can beat superman, actually he might be the only one who could really beat superman

[Necro'lic Enigma]

Super man is like a ballon in front of goku , goku lays a finger and superman will pop....
well honestly , i dont think we should even compare these two people with each other...

[golden girl]

I too think that Goku would win maybe he won't be able to defeat superman when he hasn't turned to supersaiyan but as soon he does he would defeat him in a second(even in the first form).

[Think Fact!]

Look at this logically. When Raditz was measuring the power level of the farmer, it showed up as 5. Now, Superman is 1,000 times stronger than this because his home is 1,000 times bigger.(If you want proof, look for "The Science of Superman" documentary). But since Superman is so muscular, he would probably be between 8-10,000. Anyone who has watched DBZ will know that Gokus is far greater. I am not biased one way or another, I just want to show the evidence. This information would be useful for a computer simulation, but such a test would be irrelevent as the proof is here.

[Sanosuke23]

Look at this logically. When Raditz was measuring the power level of the farmer, it showed up as 5. Now, Superman is 1,000 times stronger than this because his home is 1,000 times bigger.(If you want proof, look for "The Science of Superman" documentary). But since Superman is so muscular, he would probably be between 8-10,000. Anyone who has watched DBZ will know that Gokus is far greater. I am not biased one way or another, I just want to show the evidence. This information would be useful for a computer simulation, but such a test would be irrelevent as the proof is here.'

Yes, but what you AREN'T taking into account is, well, pretty much anything that makes Superman different from humans aside from "planet's bigger lol." Add that to the fact that Kryptonians on average while powerful are still not in Superman's league themselves and your argument is somewhat flawed.

The documentary you've offered as evidence is speculative, and since nobody actually knows the science behind scouters and their ability to calculate power level, you can't even begin to use your argument anyway.

[The Grey Crane]

No disrespect intended but i think most of the people who posted on this thread and went the Goku way knows Goku greatly but only knows Supes barely.

When we talk about how powerful Goku is, where can we draw facts and references? The anime, manga, a couple of movies, a couple of video games...

When we talk about how powerful Supes is, where can we draw facts and references? TONS of comics, animated shows, a couple of movies, a couple of video games, more comics, and more comics...and when i say more and more comics, i do mean more and more power - this fact alone gives Supes a GREAT, and i mean GREAT advantage over Goku.

Goku is basically a martial guy, a fighter, a guy that can beat punch planets and destroy it in the process, a guy who saves worlds.

Superman is also a fighter, a guy that can bore holes into heavenly bodies, a farmer, an educated person, a citizen who contributes to society by having a job, a man of ideals, also a guy who saves worlds. This guy could beat Goku just by writing an article and get him deported back to space through sheer means of slander and propaganda.

And oh, back into those Kryptonite gloves... Sorry pal, unless this discussion gets too opinionated to the point that facts are neglected, acquiring Kryptonite gloves that works on Supes (Earth 1) is not really plausible. Even Bats' kryptonite shard has already been shattered by an eye beam from Superman (earth 2) in his visit to the batcave during the infinite crisis.

Kryptonites are rare, very rare. You could find lots of it in the multiverse, but those won't work on good old Supes.

Who says Supes can't do Instant Transmission? He can do it, it's just not called that way. Want an example? Okay so now let's go into Identity Crisis. See how he instantly transports in front of Ollie (green Arrow) when they were having an argument?...

You see Supes on the monitor in the first panel with Ollie in a debative gesture, and then you see Supes standing right in front of Ollie who is still on the same debative gesture in the panel that follows.

I won't go more onto the pound for pound related discussion. Because seriously that guy named Sanosuke23 have discussed and proved time and time again in this thread that Goku would lose against Supes in a pound for pound fight.

[Think Fact!]

Y'know, I have a fairly good idea about how powerful Superman is cos I'm a big fan, I've read the comics(not all of them of course) seen the movies etc. I've been a fan of Superman longer than Goku and I, in fact, like Superman more. But the ability to accept that your favourite Superhero isn't the most powerful in existence will give a better understanding of the character. My favourite is Spiderman and its obvious he is not as powerful as either, but it doesn't matter. Power alone doesn't make a better Superhero. But you have to face the facts and when you do, you'll start looking at your hero in a much more personal way.

[Necro'lic Enigma]

Y'know, I have a fairly good idea about how powerful Superman is cos I'm a big fan, I've read the comics(not all of them of course) seen the movies etc. I've been a fan of Superman longer than Goku and I, in fact, like Superman more. But the ability to accept that your favourite Superhero isn't the most powerful in existence will give a better understanding of the character. My favourite is Spiderman and its obvious he is not as powerful as either, but it doesn't matter. Power alone doesn't make a better Superhero. But you have to face the facts and when you do, you'll start looking at your hero in a much more personal way.

Really a good point you have there.

[The Grey Crane]

A good point think fact. Favoritism clouds facts.

I (in fact) don't even count Supes as one of my favorites. I'm more into Elongated Man, and Kaiketsu Zubat on the Japanese side of things.

Now if there's someone in DB who has a better chance in beating Superman than Goku, it's gotta be Buu (in any form).

[Gero50]

Goku hands down, there is no way Superman could win against something like SS3 or SS4 Goku in any kind of fight. Even though both of them can fly but, Goku can use energy techniques that Superman could never even dream of using.

[Sanosuke23]

Y'know, I have a fairly good idea about how powerful Superman is cos I'm a big fan, I've read the comics(not all of them of course) seen the movies etc. I've been a fan of Superman longer than Goku and I, in fact, like Superman more. But the ability to accept that your favourite Superhero isn't the most powerful in existence will give a better understanding of the character. My favourite is Spiderman and its obvious he is not as powerful as either, but it doesn't matter. Power alone doesn't make a better Superhero. But you have to face the facts and when you do, you'll start looking at your hero in a much more personal way.

Actually, though I like the potential Superman has, I don't like what they've done with that potential in most cases. I can't really say I like him overall.

However, when going with two beings meant to be the paragons of their given universes, the one whose had his powers escalated, retuned to not be overpowered, and escalated again over the course of almost 80 years now simply has more evidence and a longer track record of ridiculous crap he's done. Goku simply hasn't been fleshed out enough to GIVE a definite answer for him, and his universe isn't much more than a tarp with some trees and rocks drawn on it. That's the core problem with the argument FOR Goku. He's too vague a character.

I also mentioned in my first post on this subject that it depends heavily on WHICH Superman you use. The current one is actually starting to approach Silver Age Superman in power from what I've seen, much more than I originally thought. That being said, I'm revising my match-up list.

Golden Age Superman v. Normal Goku/Kaio-ken: Goku wins. Golden Age Superman is the weakest of them all, and isn't a whole hell of a lot stronger than a human.

Post-Crisis Superman v. SSj1 Goku: This is largely equal from what I can see. Goku doesn't have the strength to blow up a planet with a gesture, not even Freiza does at this point(he has to do some wacky unexplained something to the planet's core) and he's the strongest person in the series at this point. Superman still has strength on Goku(even Post-Crisis Superman was able to move planetoids under the right circumstances), but as I've mentioned before in a point-for-point sparring match Goku can beat Superman.

Post-Crisis Superman v. SSj2 Goku: SSj2 Goku pulls this one out. The same conditions as the previous fight are present, but Goku's got a boost in his speed and power so I can assume if they were about equal before then he'd be stronger now.

Current Superman v. SSj3 Goku: Superman would win this as a matter of attrition if not ability. SSj3, if you'll recall, drains the crap out of Goku. It's basically got a time limit imposed on it, and Superman in his current state is capable of soaking up lots of damage if need be and giving it in return. Goku'd probably kill himself trying to win.

Silver Age Superman v. SSj4 Goku: This basically comes down to one thing: Goku, as a character, was written with the possibility of failure. Silver Age Superman wasn't, unless it was something so minor as to be irrelevant or Superman was morally mistaken. However that's metagame thinking, so let's move away from that. You don't want "lol plot armor" as a defense. Superman was, for forty years, the most ridiculous mofo ever. They gave him a new superpower every goddamn week practically, and had escalated his power to the point where he would be able to survive ONE MILLION ( http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/850/0822346hj.jpg) NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS ( http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3932/08222005121910pm8yp.jpg) AT ONCE ( http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6301/089054127na.jpg) with a concussion, and that's POST-CRISIS SUPERMAN. Silver Age Superman didn't have to eat, drink, or breathe. The only things that could hurt him, THE ONLY THINGS, were Kryptonite and magic, and magic's in there ONLY BECAUSE HE NEVER BOTHERED TO LEARN IT. He didn't understand how magic worked, so his body never learned to resist it. WHAT THE HELL. Silver Age Superman is far too broken for ANYONE to beat, let alone SSj4. About the only people that CAN beat him are children, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, and that's only when it's a "lol look Superman's wrong! Oh golly, he's got water ALL OVER HIM!" situation. It's not that Goku isn't some broken corporate money tree at this point himself, but Superman's just way out there in the "Let's just make him better than everyone" department.




There you have it. It has nothing to do with "favorites." Goku is just a poorly fleshed-out character that works fine in the capacity he was made for but can't be realistically compared to Superman who's had 80 years of explanations, characterization, and general feats of strength to draw from. Hell, my above guesses are just that, guesses, and particularly generous to Goku because he has so many unknowns.

All of this is incredibly stupid however, BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER FIGHT. EVEN if they were in the same universe, the nature of Superman's character would simply be to not fight Goku unless he was a threat. Goku would then proceed to annoy the crap out of him for the rest of his life, though they'd probably end up friends. You CAN'T separate that from the character for the sake of the fight, because it's a part of his personality and his mindset in a fight. Taking that away makes the fight inaccurate, and we're back to square one. Superman would simply say "You know what, you win. You're awesome. Whatever makes you feel better. Now if you'll excuse me, I have the avatar of a dark god attempting to take over the universe and it's up to me to beat the crap out of him. Have a nice day."

[DarkMoonPrince]

goku is definately the winner.

[Noskee88]

goku would just get some kriptonite and BAM! fights over

[Shedra]

goku would just get some kriptonite and BAM! fights over
Really? Where?

Superman moves planets. Goku could maybe make the grand canyon at full power.
Accept fact- Superman is stronger and faster.

[Manhattan_Project_2000]

Silver Age Superman v. SSj4 Goku: This basically comes down to one thing: Goku, as a character, was written with the possibility of failure. Silver Age Superman wasn't, unless it was something so minor as to be irrelevant or Superman was morally mistaken. However that's metagame thinking, so let's move away from that. You don't want "lol plot armor" as a defense. Superman was, for forty years, the most ridiculous mofo ever. They gave him a new superpower every goddamn week practically, and had escalated his power to the point where he would be able to survive ONE MILLION ( http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/850/0822346hj.jpg) NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS ( http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3932/08222005121910pm8yp.jpg) AT ONCE ( http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6301/089054127na.jpg) with a concussion, and that's POST-CRISIS SUPERMAN. Silver Age Superman didn't have to eat, drink, or breathe. The only things that could hurt him, THE ONLY THINGS, were Kryptonite and magic, and magic's in there ONLY BECAUSE HE NEVER BOTHERED TO LEARN IT. He didn't understand how magic worked, so his body never learned to resist it. WHAT THE HELL. Silver Age Superman is far too broken for ANYONE to beat, let alone SSj4. About the only people that CAN beat him are children, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, and that's only when it's a "lol look Superman's wrong! Oh golly, he's got water ALL OVER HIM!" situation. It's not that Goku isn't some broken corporate money tree at this point himself, but Superman's just way out there in the "Let's just make him better than everyone" department.
A somewhat better match up: Silver-Age Superman v. Death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(DC_Comics)). Could go either way, really.